[Dtb-talk] I Guess That Several People Know.

Sun Sep 16 20:22:30 CDT 2007

I have not yet gagged anybody, and I also think that it is a shame that you have to try and turn this thread into a blindness political thing.  

We have been through this discussion here in the past and I see no reason to repeat it again.  Anybody curious can turn to the archives.

David Andrews, Moderator

At 06:18 PM 9/16/2007, you wrote:
>I find it extraordinary that a person doing nothing more  than to voice
>views held by almost every free-thinking consumer of digital materials is
>being gagged as if they were publishing a method for breaking an encryption
>mechanism.
>
>I wonder why it is that so many music publishers are actually offering
>DRM-free music in the last 12 months.  Is it that they see the futility of
>the DRM approach, and realise that it does nothing more than alienate
>potential customers and restrict freedoms to listen when and where you want?
>
>Books are not DRM'd and if NFB wants the blind community to have equivalent
>access they perhaps shouldn't be promoting systems which restrict blind
>people from flexible reading options, or at any rate not gagging free speech
>on this subject.
>
>Tim
>
>Tim Noonan
>Tim Noonan Consulting Pty Ltd: Excellence in Accessibility and Usability
>+61 419 779 669
>tim at timnoonan.com.au
>Skype:TimNoonan
>Consulting: www.timnoonan.com.au
>Speaking: www.visionarycommunications.com.au
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Greg Kearney
>Sent: Monday, 17 September 2007 3:02 AM
>To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>Cc: David Andrews
>Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] I Guess That Several People Know.
>
>I am NOT promoting the breaking the NLS encryption! To break the  
>encryption system would be a violation of law. No one should break the  
>law and I have no intention of doing so. I know how, for example, to  
>decode RFB&D AudioPlus books but I have never told anyone how to do  
>this nor would I. It would be illegal for me to do so.
>
>What I am saying, however, is that it will be broken like it or not.   
>This is a fact of life in the modern digital world. No scheme of  
>encryption is unbreakable and there will be those, not myself as I am  
>an NLS patron and will get a player at some point anyway, but there  
>will be those who will break the scheme.
>
>I should  be clear however I AM NOT PROMOTION THE BREAKING OF THE  
>ENCRYPTION. I am critical of the encryption. I think it is wasteful, I  
>think it has no benefit to either the patron the NLS or even the  
>publishers who, by their very actions, prove they could care less  
>about digital right management in audio books. Saying that something  
>will happen, is not promoting that it should happen.
>
>Greg Kearney
>On Sep 16, 2007, at 10:37 AM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> Greg and others:
>>
>> First, as Moderator of this list I am hereby clearly stating that  
>> this list will not be used to promote or facilitate the breaking of  
>> NLS's copy protection system.  If you continue such promotion I will  
>> ban you from the list.
>>
>> NLS has no choice but to employ encryption methods.  They are a part  
>> of the same department as the copyright office.  By law they have to  
>> put their books in some kind of "specialized format."  And DAISY by  
>> itself isn't enough, as there are audio files as a part of the work.
>>
>> With the increased use of audio books pirating is a concern to all.   
>> For you to say it isn't of interest to publishers is naive I think.   
>> And, you are also in no position to necessarily know if there have  
>> been pirating problems with NLS books in the past.  There very well  
>> could have been, and you wouldn't necessarily know it.
>>
>> No one likes copy protection or encryption, but until the whole  
>> system changes, we must use it in some instances.
>>
>> David Andrews, Moderator and List Owner
>>
>> At 09:47 AM 9/15/2007, you wrote:
>>> I have seen and used one of the NLS players. They are nice machines
>>> and very well designed and I have serious doubts that I, as a sighted
>>> dyslexic user of the NLS, will ever have one to use.
>>>
>>> The player has two USB ports one is for the carriages and the other  
>>> is
>>> a standard sized one on the side of the unit. I was able to play a  
>>> non-
>>> encrypted books that I had produced myself, the 2007 NFB conference
>>> agenda and the Bible, from a standard commercial USB pen drive  
>>> without
>>> any trouble. I just coped all the DAISY files to the root level of  
>>> the
>>> pen drive as I would a CD.
>>>
>>> Now on to why I feel I will never see one of these players for my own
>>> use. The problem stems with the way that the NLS is making books for
>>> the program. The books that NLS are producing are in DIASY/NISO 2002
>>> with both the DIASY files and the audio encrypted. In addition the
>>> audio is in a somewhat unusual format. This was done so as to prevent
>>> copying of the books. The trouble is all this does is add to the cost
>>> of the player it does not prevent copying.
>>>
>>> It is my opinion that when you do these kinds of thing all you do is
>>> to encourage some to break the encryption. It becomes a challenge or
>>> sport to them. All you need to break encryption is the encrypted
>>> material and some knowage of what is being broken. While having a
>>> software player that could decrypt the book would be helpful and make
>>> the work simpler it is not at all needed. Because the books are know
>>> to decrypt to DIASY/NISO 200 a published standard anyone seeking to
>>> write a decipher is half way there already. They know what for the
>>> plain text will take. They also know what the sound should be as they
>>> would have access to the print book. If the motion picture industry  
>>> is
>>> unable to keep ahead of hackers on the internet what chance does the
>>> NLS have?
>>>
>>> In all the years we have had a talking book program I do not believe
>>> there has ever been a serious problem with copying the audio. So it  
>>> is
>>> a solution looking for a problem to solve. Further it is not an issue
>>> that the publishers themselves seem much concerned with given that
>>> they permit the sale and library loan of non-encrypted unprotected CD
>>> recording of books. If the publishers don't care why should the NLS
>>> spend it money dealing with the issue. The fact is you can walk into
>>> most public libraries and, for free mind you, get an unprotected
>>> digital recording of many popular titles. I even have an option in my
>>> DTBmaker program to convert these to DAISY. The DAISY version are  
>>> much
>>> smaller than the commercial ones even with the navigation included.
>>> The cost saving to the publishers in adopting DAISY in disks alone
>>> would be significant.
>>>
>>> So here is my prediction: Long before I ever see one of these players
>>> the NLS encryption will be broken by someone and tools to decrypt the
>>> books will be all over the internet. NLS will then give up on the
>>> encryption system. DAISY will become an accepted standard and we will
>>> all just go down to WalMart and buy what ever kind of player we want.
>>>
>>> I have been working with Apple on a integrated DAISY playback for the
>>> MacOS and, perhaps for the iPod as well, I have to assume that
>>> Microsoft is doing the same. The fact is that this kind of technology
>>> moves much to fast for an organization as lethargic as the NLS to be
>>> any kind of a player in. The U.S. is one of the last national
>>> libraries systems to make this transition. CNIB has had it for 10
>>> years now, the Scandinavians even longer than that. Most have given  
>>> up
>>> on the encrypted books system and many have books that are playable,
>>> if not navigable, in off the self MP3 players. Encrypted DAISY is
>>> yesterday's technology like protected music it is being cast aside
>>> even as we speak. Encryption is a fools errand. It not only will  
>>> never
>>> work but it only draws attention to itself in ways that had it not
>>> been there most people, outside of the community of the blind and
>>> dyslexics, would never have known that NLS books existed.
>>>
>>> Greg Kearney
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 15, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Daniel:
>>>>
>>>> I believe that the NLS player will be able to play MP3 files.
>>>> However, it will not handle files in folders nor will it handle text
>>>> files, i.e., it will not have text-to-speech capability. Remember,
>>>> its primary job will be to play NLS talking books. I doubt the
>>>> American public would be very enthusiastic about subsidizing players
>>>> for blind folks that, theoretically, at least, could compete (even
>>>> to a small extent) with commercial players. This is especially true
>>>> given the flap this spring and summer about the NLS dtb program.
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, David Andrews tells us that the initial run of players by
>>>> law will be sent to blinded veterans. If, like me, Uncle Sam did not
>>>> se fit to allow you to serve him in the military, that puts you very
>>>> low on the totum pole insofar as getting a player for the first year
>>>> or perhaps two is concerned.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, while the NLS players will have a USB connection (at
>>>> least last time I heard), it will function primarily with a
>>>> cartridge looking something like the current cassette. To be sure,
>>>> it will contain a flash drive (read a SD card) but it will take
>>>> third-party devices to make such cartridges that the player can
>>>> directly use. This last may change but this is the last info I had.
>>>>
>>>> Given all this, if you truly want to read digital talking books from
>>>> NLS before, say, 2010, your best bet is probably to purchase a
>>>> Victor Reader Stream or wait for a version of the Book Port software
>>>> or the new Book Port which purportedly *might* be able to handle the
>>>> NLS talking books.
>>>>
>>>> With respect to the Book Port, however, I confess that I have my
>>>> doubts although it would be nice.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From:
>>>> mailto:dvejil at sbcglobal.net Daniel Vejil
>>>> To:
>>>> mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>>>> Sent:
>>>> Friday, September 14, 2007 9:50 PM
>>>> Subject:
>>>> [Dtb-talk] I Guess That Several People Know.
>>>> David Andrews Says:
>>>>> The Stream is the only device available right now that will play  
>>>>> NLS
>>>>> DTB's.  NLS does not intend to license software-computer-based
>>>>> players at this point.  They are concerned about the copy  
>>>>> protection
>>>>> being broken.
>>>>> ----
>>>> Daniel Vejil Replies:
>>>> Since Victor Reader Soft is capable of playing Niso books, I was
>>>> hoping
>>>> that NLS would enable it to play their books.  It would open the  
>>>> Pilot
>>>> Program up to people who had a computer, but not enough money to
>>>> purchase
>>>> The Stream At this point.  However, it makes sense that they
>>>> wouldn't want
>>>> to compromise their File Protection System, and it also gives
>>>> participants
>>>> the ability to take their books with them, without being tied to a
>>>> keyboard
>>>> and a computer.
>>>> ....
>>>> Daniel Also Says:
>>>>> So, okay, do I buy the Victor Stream now, or do I wait on NLS to
>>>>> provide
>>>>> me with a player?  I mean--Victor Stream plays different types of
>>>>> Audio
>>>>> files, Text files, ETC., but is the NLS Player going to play all of
>>>>> these
>>>>> types of files too?
>>>> Historically, record and cassette players have been able to play NLS
>>>> format
>>>> as well as commercial format materials, and I am wondering if this
>>>> trend
>>>> will continue, or if purchasing an Approximately $300 third-party
>>>> player is
>>>> the better way to go, as it allows for more file flexibility.
>>>> Any and all advice is appreciated,
>>>> Daniel Vejil
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