[Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Mon Nov 26 20:16:18 CST 2007
Nowhere within ADA does it say anything of the sort. It is even unclear
at this point that cyberspace is a "place of public accommodation"
subject to the jurisdiction of ADA although many of us believe it is or
ought to be. And it's rather difficult to argue that an IPOD is a
telecomm device.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie Lewis
To: 'Discussion of Digital Talking Books'
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
Telecommunication devices.
Additionally, whether or not the law specifically states such and such
device. The notion of the ADA is that people with disabilities should
have
the same access as everyone else.
Valerie
-----Original Message-----
From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of David B Andrews
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:59 AM
To: dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
There is no law that says that consumer electronics products have to
be accessible. There are rules for cell phones, but not other
devices.
Dave
David Andrews
Chief Technology Officer
Minnesota State Services for the Blind
2200 University Ave. W., #240
St. Paul, MN 55114-1840
(651) 642-0513 Office
(612) 730-7931 Cell
(651) 649-5927 Fax
>>> vlewis at suffolk.lib.ny.us 11/26/2007 9:07 AM >>>
Hello All,
The problem is not whether or not companies will have access to the
NLS
collection. The problem is whether or not all of these companies
will stop
breaking the law and begin to make products that are accessible to
all. All
of these companies have the ability to produce accessible products.
They
choose not to. This forces people with disabilities to seek
alternaitve and
most times inferior options.
Valerie
-----Original Message-----
From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:27 AM
To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books; Lynn Evans
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
Greg,
Aren't we getting the cart ahead of the horse here? We don't
really know
what policy there is for providing access to decrypting NLS books,
if one
has even been
completely established yet. Do you know for certain that apple is
ready to
make the I Pod completely accessible and also read NLS books if
they only
received the
go-ahead from NLS? There is way too much speculation to start
talking about
going to congress, or even to get all upset about since we really
don't know
what
policies exist and whether Apple or any other manufacturer is even
interested at this point. Certainly we have seen firmware updates
to the I
Pod that make it more
accessible, and presumably such an update could be written to play
NLS
books, but even that gets dangerously close to software rather
than
hardware. In short,
unless you or others have information that has not been published
here that
I have seen, we really don't know enough yet to make the sorts of
statements
that are
being made.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Greg Kearney" <gkearney at gmail.com>
>To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Cc: "Mary Beth Janes" <mjanes at apple.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:53 AM
>Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
>: Interesting. I suspect that policy, if it is the case, could run
into
>: some serious problems. It is one thing to say that you will not
>: support software players due to security concerns. It is quite
another
>: to say you will not authorize a given hardware device due to the
fact
>: that too many people might own one. Thus maintaing high hardware
costs
>: and a monopoly of manufacturers in perpetuity.
>:
>: I suspect congress, and the California delegation in particular,
would
>: not look kindly on such an approach. Perhaps it is time to let
some
>: members of congress know. Perhaps a bill instructing the NLS to
>: authorize all manufactures of devices access to the needed keys
is in
>: order to prevent them from picking and choosing who they will
permit
>: to profit from the sale of such devices is needed.
>:
>: I think the NLS need to decide here. Either only they build the
>: players and permit no one else to have the keys or the means to
>: authorize any players. Or they permit anyone, including mass
market
>: makers like Apple to build players and they then give them the
needed
>: information to authorizes such players for NLS patrons. Given
that
>: they have already decided to do the latter I do not see how they
can
>: tell others that such options are not open to them.
>:
>: Greg Kearney
>: 535 S. Jackson St.
>: Casper, Wyoming 82601
>: 307-224-4022
>: gkearney at gmail.com
>:
>:
>:
>: On Nov 25, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Wes Derby wrote:
>:
>: > Hello.
>: >
>: > I've been a lurker here for a while, but thought I'd throw in
my two
>: > cents
>: > on this one.
>: >
>: > Having spoken to someone from NLS during a conference a few
months
>: > back, I
>: > think Dan's statement is pretty accurate. I inquired as to
whether
>: > the
>: > notetakers with on-board media players, such as the PACMate
and
>: > BrailleNote,
>: > might eventually be given the necessary rights and keys to
support
>: > the NLS
>: > digital talking books. the person I spoke to admitted he
wasn't
>: > sure what a
>: > PACMate or BrailleNote was, but said that they do in fact want
to
>: > limit
>: > distribution to manufacturers/products that are primarily used
by NLS
>: > patrons. This was as of last June, anyway...So don't expect
to see
>: > support
>: > for NLS books on an iPod or any other commercial device any
time in
>: > the
>: > near, or probably distant, future.
>: >
>: >
>: > ---
>: > Visit me on Myspace:
>: > http://www.myspace.com/wesderby
>: > Now, I actually remember to log in and check it!
>: >
>: > Check out CashCrate:
http://www.cashcrate.com/index.php?ref=230383
>: > It's free to join, and a great way to earn a few extra bucks.
>: >
>: >
>: > ----- Original Message -----
>: > From: "Dan Rossi" <dr25 at andrew.cmu.edu>
>: > To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books"
<dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>: > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:53 AM
>: > Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
>: >
>: >
>: >> I don't think the issue is a hardware manufacturer being able
to do a
>: >> firmware upgrade to a mainstream player to support NLS books.
I
>: >> think the
>: >> issue is the NLS wanting to play it pretty careful on just
who gets
>: >> licensed to support their books.
>: >>
>: >> The scenario I can cook up in my own active imagination is
that NLS
>: >> is
>: >> pretty sure there isn't going to be a rush of sighted folks
>: >> purchasing
>: >> something like the Stream and then attempting to download NLS
books
>: >> illegally. However, if a number of mainstream products
supported NLS
>: >> books, there would be more incentive for non-NLS users to
attempt
>: >> to get
>: >> their hands on NLS books. Thus, the fewer products
supporting the
>: >> NLS
>: >> format, the smaller the incentive for illegally obtaining
their
>: >> books. A
>: >> bit of security through obscurity. Not a great plan, but it
works,
>: >> and I
>: >> see it pretty often in the I.T. industry in general.
>: >>
>: >> --
>: >> Blue skies.
>: >> Dan Rossi
>: >> Carnegie Mellon University.
>: >> E-Mail: dr25 at andrew.cmu.edu
>: >> Tel: (412) 268-9081
>: >> _______________________________________________
>: >> Dtb-talk mailing list
>: >> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
>: >>
>: >
>: >
>: > _______________________________________________
>: > Dtb-talk mailing list
>: > Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
>:
>: _______________________________________________
>: Dtb-talk mailing list
>: Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
>:
>:
>: --
>: No virus found in this incoming message.
>: Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>: Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.7/1151 - Release Date:
>11/25/2007 4:24 PM
>:
>:
>_______________________________________________
>Dtb-talk mailing list
>Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
_______________________________________________
Dtb-talk mailing list
Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
_______________________________________________
Dtb-talk mailing list
Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
_______________________________________________
Dtb-talk mailing list
Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
_______________________________________________
Dtb-talk mailing list
Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
-------------- next part --------------
Nowhere within ADA does it say anything of the sort. It is even unclear at this point that cyberspace is a "place of public accommodation" subject to the jurisdiction of ADA although many of us believe it is or ought to be. And it's rather difficult to argue that an IPOD is a telecomm device.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:
mailto:vlewis at suffolk.lib.ny.us Valerie Lewis
To:
mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org 'Discussion of Digital Talking Books'
Sent:
Monday, November 26, 2007 8:14 AM
Subject:
Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
Telecommunication devices.
Additionally, whether or not the law specifically states such and such
device. The notion of the ADA is that people with disabilities should have
the same access as everyone else.
Valerie
-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David B Andrews
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:59 AM
To: mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
There is no law that says that consumer electronics products have to
be accessible. There are rules for cell phones, but not other
devices.
Dave
David Andrews
Chief Technology Officer
Minnesota State Services for the Blind
2200 University Ave. W., #240
St. Paul, MN 55114-1840
(651) 642-0513 Office
(612) 730-7931 Cell
(651) 649-5927 Fax
>>> mailto:vlewis at suffolk.lib.ny.us vlewis at suffolk.lib.ny.us
11/26/2007 9:07 AM >>>
Hello All,
The problem is not whether or not companies will have access to the
NLS
collection. The problem is whether or not all of these companies
will stop
breaking the law and begin to make products that are accessible to
all. All
of these companies have the ability to produce accessible products.
They
choose not to. This forces people with disabilities to seek
alternaitve and
most times inferior options.
Valerie
-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:27 AM
To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books; Lynn Evans
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
Greg,
Aren't we getting the cart ahead of the horse here? We don't
really know
what policy there is for providing access to decrypting NLS books,
if one
has even been
completely established yet. Do you know for certain that apple is
ready to
make the I Pod completely accessible and also read NLS books if
they only
received the
go-ahead from NLS? There is way too much speculation to start
talking about
going to congress, or even to get all upset about since we really
don't know
what
policies exist and whether Apple or any other manufacturer is even
interested at this point. Certainly we have seen firmware updates
to the I
Pod that make it more
accessible, and presumably such an update could be written to play
NLS
books, but even that gets dangerously close to software rather
than
hardware. In short,
unless you or others have information that has not been published
here that
I have seen, we really don't know enough yet to make the sorts of
statements
that are
being made.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Greg Kearney" < mailto:gkearney at gmail.com gkearney at gmail.com
>
>To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" < mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
>Cc: "Mary Beth Janes" < mailto:mjanes at apple.com mjanes at apple.com
>
>Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:53 AM
>Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
>: Interesting. I suspect that policy, if it is the case, could run
into
>: some serious problems. It is one thing to say that you will not
>: support software players due to security concerns. It is quite
another
>: to say you will not authorize a given hardware device due to the
fact
>: that too many people might own one. Thus maintaing high hardware
costs
>: and a monopoly of manufacturers in perpetuity.
>:
>: I suspect congress, and the California delegation in particular,
would
>: not look kindly on such an approach. Perhaps it is time to let
some
>: members of congress know. Perhaps a bill instructing the NLS to
>: authorize all manufactures of devices access to the needed keys
is in
>: order to prevent them from picking and choosing who they will
permit
>: to profit from the sale of such devices is needed.
>:
>: I think the NLS need to decide here. Either only they build the
>: players and permit no one else to have the keys or the means to
>: authorize any players. Or they permit anyone, including mass
market
>: makers like Apple to build players and they then give them the
needed
>: information to authorizes such players for NLS patrons. Given
that
>: they have already decided to do the latter I do not see how they
can
>: tell others that such options are not open to them.
>:
>: Greg Kearney
>: 535 S. Jackson St.
>: Casper, Wyoming 82601
>: 307-224-4022
>: mailto:gkearney at gmail.com gkearney at gmail.com
>:
>:
>:
>: On Nov 25, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Wes Derby wrote:
>:
>: > Hello.
>: >
>: > I've been a lurker here for a while, but thought I'd throw in
my two
>: > cents
>: > on this one.
>: >
>: > Having spoken to someone from NLS during a conference a few
months
>: > back, I
>: > think Dan's statement is pretty accurate. I inquired as to
whether
>: > the
>: > notetakers with on-board media players, such as the PACMate
and
>: > BrailleNote,
>: > might eventually be given the necessary rights and keys to
support
>: > the NLS
>: > digital talking books. the person I spoke to admitted he
wasn't
>: > sure what a
>: > PACMate or BrailleNote was, but said that they do in fact want
to
>: > limit
>: > distribution to manufacturers/products that are primarily used
by NLS
>: > patrons. This was as of last June, anyway...So don't expect
to see
>: > support
>: > for NLS books on an iPod or any other commercial device any
time in
>: > the
>: > near, or probably distant, future.
>: >
>: >
>: > ---
>: > Visit me on Myspace:
>: > http://www.myspace.com/wesderby http://www.myspace.com/wesderby
>: > Now, I actually remember to log in and check it!
>: >
>: > Check out CashCrate:
http://www.cashcrate.com/index.php?ref=230383 http://www.cashcrate.com/index.php?ref=230383
>: > It's free to join, and a great way to earn a few extra bucks.
>: >
>: >
>: > ----- Original Message -----
>: > From: "Dan Rossi" < mailto:dr25 at andrew.cmu.edu dr25 at andrew.cmu.edu
>
>: > To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books"
< mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
>: > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:53 AM
>: > Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] No $330.00 player for me,
>: >
>: >
>: >> I don't think the issue is a hardware manufacturer being able
to do a
>: >> firmware upgrade to a mainstream player to support NLS books.
I
>: >> think the
>: >> issue is the NLS wanting to play it pretty careful on just
who gets
>: >> licensed to support their books.
>: >>
>: >> The scenario I can cook up in my own active imagination is
that NLS
>: >> is
>: >> pretty sure there isn't going to be a rush of sighted folks
>: >> purchasing
>: >> something like the Stream and then attempting to download NLS
books
>: >> illegally. However, if a number of mainstream products
supported NLS
>: >> books, there would be more incentive for non-NLS users to
attempt
>: >> to get
>: >> their hands on NLS books. Thus, the fewer products
supporting the
>: >> NLS
>: >> format, the smaller the incentive for illegally obtaining
their
>: >> books. A
>: >> bit of security through obscurity. Not a great plan, but it
works,
>: >> and I
>: >> see it pretty often in the I.T. industry in general.
>: >>
>: >> --
>: >> Blue skies.
>: >> Dan Rossi
>: >> Carnegie Mellon University.
>: >> E-Mail: mailto:dr25 at andrew.cmu.edu dr25 at andrew.cmu.edu
>: >> Tel: (412) 268-9081
>: >> _______________________________________________
>: >> Dtb-talk mailing list
>: >> mailto:Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
>: >>
>: >
>: >
>: > _______________________________________________
>: > Dtb-talk mailing list
>: > mailto:Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
>:
>: _______________________________________________
>: Dtb-talk mailing list
>: mailto:Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
>:
>:
>: --
>: No virus found in this incoming message.
>: Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>: Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.7/1151 - Release Date:
>11/25/2007 4:24 PM
>:
>:
>_______________________________________________
>Dtb-talk mailing list
>Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
_______________________________________________
Dtb-talk mailing list
mailto:Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk
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