[Dtb-talk] NLS Digital Happenings Speech

Sun Apr 29 13:48:46 CDT 2007

Good afternoon everyone,

    I don't think it's so much the encryption scheme that's at issue but
rather the ability to read DTBS on the player of one choice without the need
to purchass special user authorization keys, and having to send the unit to
have the key installed, or being forced to purchass your player from a
particular supplier whenever you want to borrow books from them. In the old
days we could play 4-track cassettes on any specially designed recorder be
it a machine loaned to us from NLS, or one purchassed from a third party
such as APH, or NFB for that matter. We want to see the same be true of
DTBS.

    Perhaps we should work with publishers and Congress to develop a set of
playability guidelines which all producers of DTBS will need to honor to
ensure that copyrights are protected without posing serious inconveniences
and unnecessary expenses and burdens on borrowers of these books.

    Yes there are serious problems with folks illegally copying movies and
music yet I don't see companies like Sony for example , requiring sighted
viewers/listeners of their products being required to purchass CD and DVD
players from them in order to enjoy these works or having to, "Key" their
current equipment to play these offerings. The same needs to be true for
blind people wanting to use DTBS. I would hope we could find a way to work
with the industry to achieve this for blind readers of digital talking
books.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg Kearney" <gkearney at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] NLS Digital Happenings Speech

That may be true but it is still a fool's errand. Six months, I give
it six months and it will be broken. Very likely much less than that.
So in the end what will have been accomplished by this? Nothing at
all. The dishonest will be undeterred and the consumer will be
inconvenienced. The copyright holder will still be unprotected. Tax
funds, which could have found far better use will have been spent
without any benefit what so ever.

Greg
On Apr 28, 2007, at 21:51 , David Andrews wrote:

> Dan, Greg, Peter and others ...
>
> You don't think NLS is encrypting its books because it wants to.
> No, it is doing so because lawyers tell it it needs to do so.  And
> it may be a "fools errand" or whatever you want to call it, it will
> be done until the copyright laws are changed.  Don't blame NLS,
> blame copyright holders, Congress, record companies and movie
> studios and the like.
>
> Finally, NLS is using an encryption method based on open standards
> and developed by members of the DAISY Consortium.  So, you may see
> other countries use the system too.
>
> Dave
>
> At 03:05 PM 4/28/2007, you wrote:
>> While I can understand why the NLS decided on the flash media player,
>> less moving parts and simple for the patron,
>>
>> I have to agree that the DRM is a critical mistake which I believe
>> will be shown to be true in but a very short time following the
>> release of the books. It will keep the books from being played on
>> computers, or being transfered to CD for play back on other DAISY
>> devices. It will require us to have different players for different
>> vendors. And it will not accomplish it's goal of preventing copying.
>> Worse yet it will it will encourage illegal copying by providing a
>> challenge to hacker and cracker who, had there been no encryption
>> applied to these books, would likely never have paid any attention to
>> the LNS program or it's recordings.
>>
>> Other national libraries, in particular the CNIB in Canada, and TPB
>> in Sweden have dropped DRM from their books. We should as well it is
>> a waste of time, money and effort which is better spent elsewhere
>> and, as the music and motion picture industries are learning, a vain
>> effort that punishes the honest and does not deter the guilty.
>>
>>
>> Greg Kearney
>>
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2007, at 12:54 , Peter Donahue wrote:
>>
>>> Hello again Greg and listers,
>>>
>>>     Perhaps this is one reason why Congress is reluctant to
>>> appropriate
>>> funds for the digital talking book conversion program. Why should
>>> we ask the
>>> taxpayers to fund the creation of an encryption  system which
>>> will be
>>> cracked shortly after DTBS become available to NLS patrons? I'm all
>>> for
>>> urging them to give NLS the needed appropriations for the DTB
>>> conversion
>>> provided that these books can be played on all players capable of
>>> handling
>>> DTBS.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Greg Kearney" <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 9:49 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] NLS Digital Happenings Speech
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been working with Apple on Daisy playback integrated into the
>>> MacOS and in iPod. There are some issues that will have to be
>>> addressed for the playback of NLS books. As I understand it it comes
>>> down to this:
>>>
>>> NLS books will be encrypted, both the SIML files and the audio
>>> itself. Because the players will only be issued to NLS patrons they
>>> will be able to decrypt the books. The problem with computers is
>>> they
>>> will have to be able to detect that the user of the computer is
>>> somehow an "authorized" NLS patron as opposed to to just a general
>>> user. There are several ways to do this. The NLS could issue a key
>>> file to patrons who request it. this is how the RFBD system is done.
>>> This keyfile could be placed at the root level of the filesystem and
>>> could even expire every year or so. Software could ask for an NLS
>>> password and then check against a database of NLS users on the net.
>>> Books could use some sort of public/private key system like PGP to
>>> verify the user.
>>>
>>> All this said as the author of DTBmaker for Macintosh which does not
>>> make encrypted books and never will,  I think the whole business of
>>> encrypting books is a fool's errand. It inconveniences the honest
>>> and
>>> does nothing to deter the criminal. I am willing to wager that
>>> within
>>> 6 months of wide release there will be a means of breaking the
>>> encryption on NLS books. As a result many thousands of dollars of
>>> development funds will have be wasted.
>>>
>>> Further it seems to be a solution looking for a problem. In all the
>>> years that we have had four track tapes which are simple to copy has
>>> there ever been wide speared duplication of NLS books? The reasoning
>>> has always been that you needed a special tape player to play NLS
>>> tapes but those players are widely sold and can be found on ebay
>>> even
>>> NLS issued one:
>>>
>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270114582419
>>>
>>> Also anyone with good recording equipmetn could make a normal speed
>>> copy playable on any tape player. Finally while the NLS is spending
>>> time and effort encrypting books the publishers themselves are
>>> releasing those same book on CD in unencrypted format. I have been
>>> able to take these recording and produce Daisy recording will but
>>> small effort. If the publishers themselves don't care about
>>> encryption why should the NLS bother with it?
>>>
>>> Greg Kearney
>>> On Apr 27, 2007, at 21:42 , David Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe that NLS has no plans to do a software player, whether or
>>>> not third parties do one is unknown to me.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> At 07:29 PM 4/27/2007, you wrote:
>>>>> Hello Dan and listers,
>>>>>
>>>>>    Are they going to develop a software player for those who don't
>>>>> have the
>>>>> NLS player when it's made available? It only makes sense to me for
>>>>> them to
>>>>> do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: <DanFlasar at aol.com>
>>>>> To: <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 6:11 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] NLS Digital Happenings Speech
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The download project will not be usable by most patrons because
>>>>> you won't
>>>>> be
>>>>> able to play the downloaded books until you get a player.     As I
>>>>> currently
>>>>> understand it - there will be 200 players available for home
>>>>> testing
>>>>> sometime
>>>>> early in 2008.  By the end of that year, there will be  5000
>>>>> production
>>>>> players sent to the various libraries (avg 100/library).   These
>>>>> will be
>>>>> distributed according to the state library affiliate.
>>>>>     The digital download site is already up and  running for the
>>>>> pilot
>>>>> program (we have modified Victor Readers) but it won't be  useful
>>>>> until you
>>>>> can
>>>>> play the books.
>>>>>       I hope this helps.
>>>>> Dan F
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ************************************** See what's free at
>>>>> http://www.aol.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>> --
>>>>> -
>>>>> -------
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>>
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