[BlindMath] BlindMath Digest, Vol 222, Issue 4
Wenwei Fisher
wenweix3 at gmail.com
Wed Jan 8 13:23:24 UTC 2025
You can share scrabble boards (check out Wordvoyance). I imagine you could adopt a similar approach. There are gestures to move between words and to mark key points on the board for later review. Braille is also supported
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2025, at 7:01 AM, blindmath-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over the computer to
another blind individual (John Miller)
2. Re: Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over the computer
to another blind individual (Ishe Chinyoka)
3. Re: Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over the computer
to another blind individual (Sabra Ewing)
4. Re: Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over the computer
to another blind individual (kperry at blinksoft.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 23:09:22 +0000
From: John Miller <johnmillerphd at hotmail.com>
To: "blindmath at nfbnet.org" <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [BlindMath] Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over the
computer to another blind individual
Message-ID:
<DM6PR04MB64735389912FB26FF3A81BA1A3112 at DM6PR04MB6473.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello,
I believe that sharing spatial tactile or braille information is quite important for those training to work or working in STEM fields.
One such example is sharing the results of a tic-tac-toe game.
Besides which, it is just fun to talk about tic-tac-toe.
Do any of you play tic-tac-toe with blind friends or children over the computer?
How would you share the lay-out of the board and the pieces played thus far?
Multi-line braille should offer a more natural way to review board information for tic-tac-toe, checkers, chess, and other board games but only if we tell the blindness vendors what works best for blind users.
See the board results displayed in refreshable braille below.
The pieces are indicated with "x" or "o".
The shape of the three by three grid is made with series of vertical l's and series of horizontal dashes or "-".
If a position on the board is empty then the grid location contains three spaces. If it has an x piece then it contains a space followed by x followed by space and similarly for an o piece being a space followed by o followed by space.
In the game played below x plays first and eventually wins. In move 1 x goes to row 3 column 1 and
o answers with row 2 column 2.
In move 2 x goes to row 1 column 3 and o answers with row 3 column 3.
In move 3 x goes to row 1 column 1.
The board is displayed up to this point in the game.
Before making move 3 o recognizes that x will win.
In this case x is threatening 3 in a row for both row 1 and column 1.
tic-tac-toe board example best for embossing or refreshable braille:
-------------
l x l l x l
-------------
l l o l l
-------------
l x l l o l
-------------
With speech it might be easier to examine a board skipping the "l" and "-" symbols and using "b" to indicate a blank grid location.
In this case the board looks like the following.
tic-tac-toe speech friendly example:
x b x
b o b
x b o
A tic-tac-toe board including piece locations might display nicely using a table in Microsoft Word.
You will notice that in the two examples above the braille is in 8-dot braille. For it to be in UEB or Nemeth braille code or literary braille the "x" and the "o" symbol might each require a letter sign before it making the symbol take up 2 braille cells.
I would be glad to hear your thoughts on these topics.
Very best,
John
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2025 01:34:59 +0200
From: Ishe Chinyoka <lists at brainpower.africa>
To: John Miller via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>,
"blindmath at nfbnet.org" <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: John Miller <johnmillerphd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over
the computer to another blind individual
Message-ID: <87ldvmjizg.fsf at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi,
I don't know about tic-tac-toe, but as a chess player myself, I can
relate to what you are saying.
In chess, we use what is known as a Forsyth diagram to achieve that. The
forsyth diagram can be shared between blind and sighted players. It
perfectly captures the state of the board at any point in the game. For
blind players, they can have black pieces added a dot 6 for example,
while the white pieces are represented as they are in the algebraic
chess notation.
Cheers,
Ishe
John Miller via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> writes:
> Hello,
> I believe that sharing spatial tactile or braille information is quite important for those training to work or working in STEM fields.
> One such example is sharing the results of a tic-tac-toe game.
> Besides which, it is just fun to talk about tic-tac-toe.
> Do any of you play tic-tac-toe with blind friends or children over the computer?
> How would you share the lay-out of the board and the pieces played thus far?
> Multi-line braille should offer a more natural way to review board information for tic-tac-toe, checkers, chess, and other board games but only if we tell the blindness vendors what works best for blind users.
>
> See the board results displayed in refreshable braille below.
> The pieces are indicated with "x" or "o".
> The shape of the three by three grid is made with series of vertical l's and series of horizontal dashes or "-".
> If a position on the board is empty then the grid location contains three spaces. If it has an x piece then it contains a space followed by x followed by space and similarly for an o piece being a space followed by o followed by space.
>
> In the game played below x plays first and eventually wins. In move 1 x goes to row 3 column 1 and
> o answers with row 2 column 2.
> In move 2 x goes to row 1 column 3 and o answers with row 3 column 3.
> In move 3 x goes to row 1 column 1.
> The board is displayed up to this point in the game.
> Before making move 3 o recognizes that x will win.
> In this case x is threatening 3 in a row for both row 1 and column 1.
>
> tic-tac-toe board example best for embossing or refreshable braille:
> -------------
> l x l l x l
> -------------
> l l o l l
> -------------
> l x l l o l
> -------------
> With speech it might be easier to examine a board skipping the "l" and "-" symbols and using "b" to indicate a blank grid location.
> In this case the board looks like the following.
> tic-tac-toe speech friendly example:
> x b x
> b o b
> x b o
>
> A tic-tac-toe board including piece locations might display nicely using a table in Microsoft Word.
> You will notice that in the two examples above the braille is in 8-dot braille. For it to be in UEB or Nemeth braille code or literary braille the "x" and the "o" symbol might each require a letter sign before it making the symbol take up 2 braille cells.
> I would be glad to hear your thoughts on these topics.
> Very best,
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/lists%40brainpower.africa
> BlindMath Gems can be found at <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 20:56:32 -0700
From: Sabra Ewing <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: John Miller via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>,
blindmath at nfbnet.org, Ishe Chinyoka <lists at brainpower.africa>, John
Miller <johnmillerphd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over
the computer to another blind individual
Message-ID: <7C5C199B-CD2E-4926-9B2D-AB0C1C7DECD2 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Makes no sense to me. Just use a spreadsheet or a table.
Sabra Ewing
> On Jan 7, 2025, at 4:36?PM, Ishe Chinyoka via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> ?Hi,
>
> I don't know about tic-tac-toe, but as a chess player myself, I can
> relate to what you are saying.
>
> In chess, we use what is known as a Forsyth diagram to achieve that. The
> forsyth diagram can be shared between blind and sighted players. It
> perfectly captures the state of the board at any point in the game. For
> blind players, they can have black pieces added a dot 6 for example,
> while the white pieces are represented as they are in the algebraic
> chess notation.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ishe
>
>
>
> John Miller via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> writes:
>
>> Hello,
>> I believe that sharing spatial tactile or braille information is quite important for those training to work or working in STEM fields.
>> One such example is sharing the results of a tic-tac-toe game.
>> Besides which, it is just fun to talk about tic-tac-toe.
>> Do any of you play tic-tac-toe with blind friends or children over the computer?
>> How would you share the lay-out of the board and the pieces played thus far?
>> Multi-line braille should offer a more natural way to review board information for tic-tac-toe, checkers, chess, and other board games but only if we tell the blindness vendors what works best for blind users.
>>
>> See the board results displayed in refreshable braille below.
>> The pieces are indicated with "x" or "o".
>> The shape of the three by three grid is made with series of vertical l's and series of horizontal dashes or "-".
>> If a position on the board is empty then the grid location contains three spaces. If it has an x piece then it contains a space followed by x followed by space and similarly for an o piece being a space followed by o followed by space.
>>
>> In the game played below x plays first and eventually wins. In move 1 x goes to row 3 column 1 and
>> o answers with row 2 column 2.
>> In move 2 x goes to row 1 column 3 and o answers with row 3 column 3.
>> In move 3 x goes to row 1 column 1.
>> The board is displayed up to this point in the game.
>> Before making move 3 o recognizes that x will win.
>> In this case x is threatening 3 in a row for both row 1 and column 1.
>>
>> tic-tac-toe board example best for embossing or refreshable braille:
>> -------------
>> l x l l x l
>> -------------
>> l l o l l
>> -------------
>> l x l l o l
>> -------------
>> With speech it might be easier to examine a board skipping the "l" and "-" symbols and using "b" to indicate a blank grid location.
>> In this case the board looks like the following.
>> tic-tac-toe speech friendly example:
>> x b x
>> b o b
>> x b o
>>
>> A tic-tac-toe board including piece locations might display nicely using a table in Microsoft Word.
>> You will notice that in the two examples above the braille is in 8-dot braille. For it to be in UEB or Nemeth braille code or literary braille the "x" and the "o" symbol might each require a letter sign before it making the symbol take up 2 braille cells.
>> I would be glad to hear your thoughts on these topics.
>> Very best,
>> John
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BlindMath mailing list
>> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/lists%40brainpower.africa
>> BlindMath Gems can be found at <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sabra1023%40gmail.com
> BlindMath Gems can be found at <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2025 06:56:10 -0500
From: <kperry at blinksoft.com>
To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over
the computer to another blind individual
Message-ID: <000201db61c4$50155060$f03ff120$@blinksoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This is an excellent discussion, and it's great to see the ideas around
tactile and spatial sharing of tic-tac-toe boards!
Devices like the Graphiti, Monarch, Metech, and Dot displays really excel in
these kinds of applications. I've created a tic-tac-toe game in Python,
which you can find in my GitHub repository under the "games" folder. It
includes several versions: GUI-based, command-line versions, and even
variations with and without functions for those interested in exploring
coding techniques.
Inspired by this thread, I've modified my command-line version to integrate
with the Graphiti. Currently, players make their moves by selecting
positions (1-9) on the command line, and the game displays the X's and O's
tactilely on the Graphiti screen. This approach allows users to feel the
board layout directly.
The exciting potential here is for remote gameplay. With some additional
code, I could set up a system where two Graphiti devices-mine and, say,
John's-could connect over a simple Python server. This would allow us to
play tic-tac-toe across the country, with the server transmitting just 11
bits of data back and forth to sync the board states. I'm considering
working on this over the weekend. I won't share my repo but people can
search for repo under the user krperry on github and when this code is done
I will push it into the current group.
It's also worth noting that the Monarch currently supports an API for
tactile chess gameplay, enabling blind users to play with others, whether
sighted or also using the Monarch. This functionality demonstrates how
tactile displays can open up interactive and inclusive gaming opportunities.
Thank you for raising this topic-it's inspiring to think about how we can
further leverage these technologies to enhance accessibility and create fun,
engaging experiences for everyone.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of John Miller via
BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2025 6:09 PM
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: John Miller <johnmillerphd at hotmail.com>
Subject: [BlindMath] Sharing a tic-tac-toe board description over the
computer to another blind individual
Hello,
I believe that sharing spatial tactile or braille information is quite
important for those training to work or working in STEM fields.
One such example is sharing the results of a tic-tac-toe game.
Besides which, it is just fun to talk about tic-tac-toe.
Do any of you play tic-tac-toe with blind friends or children over the
computer?
How would you share the lay-out of the board and the pieces played thus far?
Multi-line braille should offer a more natural way to review board
information for tic-tac-toe, checkers, chess, and other board games but only
if we tell the blindness vendors what works best for blind users.
See the board results displayed in refreshable braille below.
The pieces are indicated with "x" or "o".
The shape of the three by three grid is made with series of vertical l's and
series of horizontal dashes or "-".
If a position on the board is empty then the grid location contains three
spaces. If it has an x piece then it contains a space followed by x
followed by space and similarly for an o piece being a space followed by o
followed by space.
In the game played below x plays first and eventually wins. In move 1 x goes
to row 3 column 1 and o answers with row 2 column 2.
In move 2 x goes to row 1 column 3 and o answers with row 3 column 3.
In move 3 x goes to row 1 column 1.
The board is displayed up to this point in the game.
Before making move 3 o recognizes that x will win.
In this case x is threatening 3 in a row for both row 1 and column 1.
tic-tac-toe board example best for embossing or refreshable braille:
-------------
l x l l x l
-------------
l l o l l
-------------
l x l l o l
-------------
With speech it might be easier to examine a board skipping the "l" and "-"
symbols and using "b" to indicate a blank grid location.
In this case the board looks like the following.
tic-tac-toe speech friendly example:
x b x
b o b
x b o
A tic-tac-toe board including piece locations might display nicely using a
table in Microsoft Word.
You will notice that in the two examples above the braille is in 8-dot
braille. For it to be in UEB or Nemeth braille code or literary braille the
"x" and the "o" symbol might each require a letter sign before it making the
symbol take up 2 braille cells.
I would be glad to hear your thoughts on these topics.
Very best,
John
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m
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------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of BlindMath Digest, Vol 222, Issue 4
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