[blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center

Sun Apr 6 15:41:19 CDT 2008

I think Rod was speaking metaphorically.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center

> Hello Rod and listers,
>
>     Excuse me but the Sports and Recreation List isn't a list for guide
dog
> users. That's the realm of NAGDU. Since you're not a dog user you need not
> go to the NAGDU List. I'm sure the folks on the Sports and Recreation List
> can offer their help and suggestions to help you secure a membership on
the
> same terms as sighted individuals no dogs about it.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Alcidonis" <roddj12 at hotmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 2:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>
>
> Peter, I have no dogs in this fight as I do not use fitness centers, nor
do
> I have the intention of using one. I was simply attempting to clarify the
> question that was asked, that's all.
>
> Now, again, back to studying for finals!
>
> Rod Alcidonis
> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
> Roger Williams University School of Law
> 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
> Bristol, RI 02809
> Cell: 718-704-4651
> Home: 401-824-8685
> Visit my Law School Blog at:
> http://blogs.rwu.edu/law/ralcidonis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>
>
> > Hello Rod and listers,
> >
> >    Might I suggest taking this to the Sports and Recreation List as
folks
> > there may be able to give you additional suggestions for working things
> > out
> > with this outfit. There's an educational component to this situation in
> > addition to a legal one. Lisa Maria Martinez, President of the NFB'S
> > Sports
> > and Recreation Division can give you valuable advice to assist you.
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rod Alcidonis" <roddj12 at hotmail.com>
> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
> >
> >
> > What strikes me is the lack of discussion on this topic by experienced
> > practicing attorneys. In my opinion, it's becoming more of a practice on
> > the
> > list for some people to quickly criticize one another's independence
> > rather
> > than educating those on the lists who aren't lawyers on these types of
> > legal
> > issues. At least that's a pattern I have observed.
> >
> > Back to studying for finals.
> >
> > Rod Alcidonis
> > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
> > Roger Williams University School of Law
> > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
> > Bristol, RI 02809
> > Cell: 718-704-4651
> > Home: 401-824-8685
> > Visit my Law School Blog at:
> > http://blogs.rwu.edu/law/ralcidonis
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
> >
> >
> >> Good evening everyone,
> >>
> >>    This sounds like discrimination straight out of the last century.
They
> >> don't require sighted folks to hire a personal trainer as a condition
of
> >> membership so why should they you? There was a similar incident in the
> >> Baltimore area in the mid 1980s where some blind people were refused
> >> membership to a health spa due to their blindness. That health center
> >> thought differently when 50+ blind individuals along with a Maryland
> >> State
> >> Legislator paid them a visit. Perhaps the same medicine should be used
on
> >> this patient.
> >>
> >> Peter Donahue
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "E.J. Zufelt" <everett at zufelt.ca>
> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 8:42 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
> >>
> >>
> >> Ron,
> >>
> >> I do think that this is an interesting topic and worth discussing.  I
> >> myself
> >> have never thought of using a fitness centre for the reason that I
don't
> >> want to deal with the hassle that you are describing here.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Ron Dixon" <peagoody at worldnet.att.net>
> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:30 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
> >>
> >>
> >>> Thanks Rod:
> >>>
> >>> I think you capsulated my dilemma and the questions I tossed out for
> >>> debate.
> >>> I was beginning to believe I framed my problem incorrectly because
those
> >>> who
> >>> responded seemed to be stuck on what I used as an example of how my
last
> >>> fitness center dealt with having a totally blind member.  Rather then
> >>> how
> >>> the Cardinal Fitness Center is choosing to address the problem.   You
> >>> are
> >>> correct I did not ask for, nor did I use any of the personal trainer's
> >>> expertise even though the Florida center assigned one to shadow me.
In
> >>> the
> >>> time since my last posting on this subject,I have inquired about
> >>> membership
> >>> to most of the Fitness Center's within a 10 mile radius of my home and
I
> >>> discussed this matter several more times with the management of
> >>> Cardinal.
> >>> What I learned is there are a wide range of methods to accommodate
> >>> someone
> >>> blind, from not allowing membership, as with Cardinal.  In the case of
> >>> L.A.
> >>> Fitness, the owner offered to work out with me for free if I came at
> >>> 1pm,
> >>> but if I came at a different time, he would need to charge me $50.
over
> >>> the
> >>> usual monthly fees to pay for the Personal Trainer.  Finally, St.
James
> >>> Fitness Center had an accommodation setup similar to what I had in
> >>> Florida
> >>> .  Although when asked, out of all the Fitness Centers I contacted in
> >>> the
> >>> south suburban area of Chicago, none of these facilities had any blind
> >>> members .  hmm, I wonder why that is!  Oh, the last position from the
> >>> Partner at Cardinal is they would allow me membership as long as I
> >>> agreed
> >>> to
> >>> pay for a Personal Trainer.  When I explained the cost of a personal
> >>> trainer
> >>> 4 or 5 times a week would make membership cost prohibitive.  I was
told
> >>> they
> >>> knew I did not want the person to instruct or motivate me so the
> >>> trainer's
> >>> cost should be minimal.   Because of this, they would consider
reducing
> >>> my
> >>> membership rate to coincide with what the Personal Trainer charged me.
> >>> I
> >>> wonder if they spoke to the trainer about this because I was told I
> >>> needed
> >>> to agree on a contract with the personal trainer.  What a joke!
> >>> I apologize for the long email response, and from the responses it
seems
> >>> as
> >>> if this is not an issue of importance to most of you.  Therefore, I'll
> >>> deal
> >>> with the matter myself.
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Rod Alcidonis" <roddj12 at hotmail.com>
> >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 5:36 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> :I don't believe you guys are analyzing the question asked:
> >>> :
> >>> : He is seeking to know what remedies are available under the law if
the
> >>> : center believes that:
> >>> : 1. Providing a personal trainer for orientation is not a reasonable
> >>> : accommodation. He is not asking about the eventual use of that
> >>> trainer.
> >>> : 2. IF he is not provided with a trainer and refused membership, the
> >>> argument
> >>> : that he is an insurance liability would be denying him equal access
to
> >>> the
> >>> : facility. This is a public place and they are certainly under some
> >>> : obligation to provide reasonable accommodations. I am not familiar
> >>> with
> >>> the
> >>> : Law in this area so someone who is should take it from there.
> >>> :
> >>> :
> >>> : The argument being marshaled here is that asking for a personal
> >>> trainer
> >>> at
> >>> a
> >>> : gym to use the machines is analogous to asking for a hotel to
provide
> >>> a
> >>> : staff to assist you to watch the TV in your room. Though  this is a
> >>> valid
> >>> : argument, However, what is not valid is a hotel being allowed to
> >>> refuse
> >>> to
> >>> : provide a staff to assist you to know how the TV operates-- using
the
> >>> remote
> >>> : control, etc. The latter would be a reasonable accommodation
request,
> >>> in
> >>> my
> >>> : view. but as others have pointed out, the former would arguably be
> >>> : unreasonable. But, under the same analogy, if the hotel were to tell
> >>> you
> >>> : that as a blind person watching TV by yourself would be an insurance
> >>> : liability (of course that wouldn't make sense), then I do believe
this
> >>> would
> >>> : constitute an equal access violation.
> >>> :
> >>> : You would think that a competent in-house counsel should be able to
> >>> advise
> >>> : them of what to do to comply, but you'll be surprised of the level
of
> >>> : ignorance that exist sometimes in these offices.
> >>> :
> >>> :  I thought I would contextualize the question so that the discussion
> >>> can
> >>> be
> >>> : more targeted to his situation.
> >>> :
> >>> : Rod Alcidonis
> >>> :
> >>> : ----- Original Message -----
> >>> : From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" <Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov>
> >>> : To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> >>> : Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:38 AM
> >>> : Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
> >>> :
> >>> :
> >>> : >I have used gyms and fitness centers for years.  Although I agree
> >>> that
> >>> : > orientation to the equipment is an appropriate request, once that
is
> >>> : > done, I do not believe an on-going free personal trainer is
> >>> reasonable.
> >>> : > Part of the orientation would be to show you how the environment
may
> >>> : > change when people are using the equipment.
> >>> : >
> >>> : > -----Original Message-----
> >>> : > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >>> : > On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> >>> : > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 7:10 AM
> >>> : > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> >>> : > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
> >>> : >
> >>> : > Wow, I have heard of difficulties running some of the various
> >>> exercise
> >>> : > machines in fitness centers, but I have never heard of a blind
> >>> person
> >>> : > needing a personal trainer to avoid hurting themselves or someone
> >>> else.
> >>> : > Asking for someone to familiarize one with the machinery and the
> >>> layout
> >>> : > to some degree seems reasonable, but expecting a personal trainer
> >>> : > strikes me as excessive, especially since they are not providing
> >>> : > personal training.  There are two parts to this issue, though, the
> >>> legal
> >>> : > part and the practical part, and it's not easy to draw the line,
and
> >>> : > perhaps there are circumstances here of which I am not aware.
> >>> : >
> >>> : > On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:11:43 -1200, Ron Dixon wrote:
> >>> : >
> >>> : >>
> >>> : >>Hi Gang:
> >>> : >>
> >>> : >>A question for anyone who has encountered this problem or know of
> >>> this
> >>> : >>problem.  I recently moved to the Chicago area from Florida and
> >>> finally
> >>> : >
> >>> : >>found a fitness
> >>> : > center
> >>> : > near my home.  When I called to inquire of membership, I informed
> >>> the
> >>> : > office manager of my blindness and my need for an accommodation.
I
> >>> : > explained my fitness center in Florida provided me with a personal
> >>> : > trainer who insured I did not injure myself using the equipment or
> >>> : > injure someone else by possibly tripping them or tripping and
> >>> falling
> >>> : > onto someone.  Nevertheless, the arrangement worked and there was
no
> >>> : > extra cost.
> >>> : >>
> >>> : >>The manager at Cardinal, however, refuse to make a decision on
> >>> allowing
> >>> : >
> >>> : >>my membership and/or accommodations.  He passed the buck to his
> >>> manger
> >>> : >>who called
> >>> : > me
> >>> : > the following day and after listening to the same story told me he
> >>> did
> >>> : > not have the authority to offer accommodations and he will have
one
> >>> of
> >>> : > the partners get into contact with me.  I am currently still
waiting
> >>> on
> >>> : > the partner's call.
> >>> : >>
> >>> : >>Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with the partner,
or
> >>> in
> >>> : > case the partner does not return my call?
> >>> : >>
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : > _______________________________________________
> >>> : > blindlaw mailing list
> >>> : > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >>> : > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw
> >>> : > _______________________________________________
> >>> : > blindlaw mailing list
> >>> : > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >>> : > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw
> >>> : >
> >>> :
> >>> : _______________________________________________
> >>> : blindlaw mailing list
> >>> : blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >>> : http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >
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