[blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center

Sun Apr 6 15:02:33 CDT 2008

Hello Rod and listers,

    Excuse me but the Sports and Recreation List isn't a list for guide dog
users. That's the realm of NAGDU. Since you're not a dog user you need not
go to the NAGDU List. I'm sure the folks on the Sports and Recreation List
can offer their help and suggestions to help you secure a membership on the
same terms as sighted individuals no dogs about it.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rod Alcidonis" <roddj12 at hotmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center

Peter, I have no dogs in this fight as I do not use fitness centers, nor do
I have the intention of using one. I was simply attempting to clarify the
question that was asked, that's all.

Now, again, back to studying for finals!

Rod Alcidonis
Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
Roger Williams University School of Law
10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
Bristol, RI 02809
Cell: 718-704-4651
Home: 401-824-8685
Visit my Law School Blog at:
http://blogs.rwu.edu/law/ralcidonis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center

> Hello Rod and listers,
>
>    Might I suggest taking this to the Sports and Recreation List as folks
> there may be able to give you additional suggestions for working things
> out
> with this outfit. There's an educational component to this situation in
> addition to a legal one. Lisa Maria Martinez, President of the NFB'S
> Sports
> and Recreation Division can give you valuable advice to assist you.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rod Alcidonis" <roddj12 at hotmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>
>
> What strikes me is the lack of discussion on this topic by experienced
> practicing attorneys. In my opinion, it's becoming more of a practice on
> the
> list for some people to quickly criticize one another's independence
> rather
> than educating those on the lists who aren't lawyers on these types of
> legal
> issues. At least that's a pattern I have observed.
>
> Back to studying for finals.
>
> Rod Alcidonis
> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
> Roger Williams University School of Law
> 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
> Bristol, RI 02809
> Cell: 718-704-4651
> Home: 401-824-8685
> Visit my Law School Blog at:
> http://blogs.rwu.edu/law/ralcidonis
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>
>
>> Good evening everyone,
>>
>>    This sounds like discrimination straight out of the last century. They
>> don't require sighted folks to hire a personal trainer as a condition of
>> membership so why should they you? There was a similar incident in the
>> Baltimore area in the mid 1980s where some blind people were refused
>> membership to a health spa due to their blindness. That health center
>> thought differently when 50+ blind individuals along with a Maryland
>> State
>> Legislator paid them a visit. Perhaps the same medicine should be used on
>> this patient.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "E.J. Zufelt" <everett at zufelt.ca>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 8:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>>
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>> I do think that this is an interesting topic and worth discussing.  I
>> myself
>> have never thought of using a fitness centre for the reason that I don't
>> want to deal with the hassle that you are describing here.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ron Dixon" <peagoody at worldnet.att.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Rod:
>>>
>>> I think you capsulated my dilemma and the questions I tossed out for
>>> debate.
>>> I was beginning to believe I framed my problem incorrectly because those
>>> who
>>> responded seemed to be stuck on what I used as an example of how my last
>>> fitness center dealt with having a totally blind member.  Rather then
>>> how
>>> the Cardinal Fitness Center is choosing to address the problem.   You
>>> are
>>> correct I did not ask for, nor did I use any of the personal trainer's
>>> expertise even though the Florida center assigned one to shadow me.  In
>>> the
>>> time since my last posting on this subject,I have inquired about
>>> membership
>>> to most of the Fitness Center's within a 10 mile radius of my home and I
>>> discussed this matter several more times with the management of
>>> Cardinal.
>>> What I learned is there are a wide range of methods to accommodate
>>> someone
>>> blind, from not allowing membership, as with Cardinal.  In the case of
>>> L.A.
>>> Fitness, the owner offered to work out with me for free if I came at
>>> 1pm,
>>> but if I came at a different time, he would need to charge me $50. over
>>> the
>>> usual monthly fees to pay for the Personal Trainer.  Finally, St. James
>>> Fitness Center had an accommodation setup similar to what I had in
>>> Florida
>>> .  Although when asked, out of all the Fitness Centers I contacted in
>>> the
>>> south suburban area of Chicago, none of these facilities had any blind
>>> members .  hmm, I wonder why that is!  Oh, the last position from the
>>> Partner at Cardinal is they would allow me membership as long as I
>>> agreed
>>> to
>>> pay for a Personal Trainer.  When I explained the cost of a personal
>>> trainer
>>> 4 or 5 times a week would make membership cost prohibitive.  I was told
>>> they
>>> knew I did not want the person to instruct or motivate me so the
>>> trainer's
>>> cost should be minimal.   Because of this, they would consider reducing
>>> my
>>> membership rate to coincide with what the Personal Trainer charged me.
>>> I
>>> wonder if they spoke to the trainer about this because I was told I
>>> needed
>>> to agree on a contract with the personal trainer.  What a joke!
>>> I apologize for the long email response, and from the responses it seems
>>> as
>>> if this is not an issue of importance to most of you.  Therefore, I'll
>>> deal
>>> with the matter myself.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Rod Alcidonis" <roddj12 at hotmail.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 5:36 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>>>
>>>
>>> :I don't believe you guys are analyzing the question asked:
>>> :
>>> : He is seeking to know what remedies are available under the law if the
>>> : center believes that:
>>> : 1. Providing a personal trainer for orientation is not a reasonable
>>> : accommodation. He is not asking about the eventual use of that
>>> trainer.
>>> : 2. IF he is not provided with a trainer and refused membership, the
>>> argument
>>> : that he is an insurance liability would be denying him equal access to
>>> the
>>> : facility. This is a public place and they are certainly under some
>>> : obligation to provide reasonable accommodations. I am not familiar
>>> with
>>> the
>>> : Law in this area so someone who is should take it from there.
>>> :
>>> :
>>> : The argument being marshaled here is that asking for a personal
>>> trainer
>>> at
>>> a
>>> : gym to use the machines is analogous to asking for a hotel to provide
>>> a
>>> : staff to assist you to watch the TV in your room. Though  this is a
>>> valid
>>> : argument, However, what is not valid is a hotel being allowed to
>>> refuse
>>> to
>>> : provide a staff to assist you to know how the TV operates-- using the
>>> remote
>>> : control, etc. The latter would be a reasonable accommodation request,
>>> in
>>> my
>>> : view. but as others have pointed out, the former would arguably be
>>> : unreasonable. But, under the same analogy, if the hotel were to tell
>>> you
>>> : that as a blind person watching TV by yourself would be an insurance
>>> : liability (of course that wouldn't make sense), then I do believe this
>>> would
>>> : constitute an equal access violation.
>>> :
>>> : You would think that a competent in-house counsel should be able to
>>> advise
>>> : them of what to do to comply, but you'll be surprised of the level of
>>> : ignorance that exist sometimes in these offices.
>>> :
>>> :  I thought I would contextualize the question so that the discussion
>>> can
>>> be
>>> : more targeted to his situation.
>>> :
>>> : Rod Alcidonis
>>> :
>>> : ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> : From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" <Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov>
>>> : To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> : Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:38 AM
>>> : Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>>> :
>>> :
>>> : >I have used gyms and fitness centers for years.  Although I agree
>>> that
>>> : > orientation to the equipment is an appropriate request, once that is
>>> : > done, I do not believe an on-going free personal trainer is
>>> reasonable.
>>> : > Part of the orientation would be to show you how the environment may
>>> : > change when people are using the equipment.
>>> : >
>>> : > -----Original Message-----
>>> : > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> : > On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>>> : > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 7:10 AM
>>> : > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> : > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Cardinal Fitness Center
>>> : >
>>> : > Wow, I have heard of difficulties running some of the various
>>> exercise
>>> : > machines in fitness centers, but I have never heard of a blind
>>> person
>>> : > needing a personal trainer to avoid hurting themselves or someone
>>> else.
>>> : > Asking for someone to familiarize one with the machinery and the
>>> layout
>>> : > to some degree seems reasonable, but expecting a personal trainer
>>> : > strikes me as excessive, especially since they are not providing
>>> : > personal training.  There are two parts to this issue, though, the
>>> legal
>>> : > part and the practical part, and it's not easy to draw the line, and
>>> : > perhaps there are circumstances here of which I am not aware.
>>> : >
>>> : > On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:11:43 -1200, Ron Dixon wrote:
>>> : >
>>> : >>
>>> : >>Hi Gang:
>>> : >>
>>> : >>A question for anyone who has encountered this problem or know of
>>> this
>>> : >>problem.  I recently moved to the Chicago area from Florida and
>>> finally
>>> : >
>>> : >>found a fitness
>>> : > center
>>> : > near my home.  When I called to inquire of membership, I informed
>>> the
>>> : > office manager of my blindness and my need for an accommodation.  I
>>> : > explained my fitness center in Florida provided me with a personal
>>> : > trainer who insured I did not injure myself using the equipment or
>>> : > injure someone else by possibly tripping them or tripping and
>>> falling
>>> : > onto someone.  Nevertheless, the arrangement worked and there was no
>>> : > extra cost.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>The manager at Cardinal, however, refuse to make a decision on
>>> allowing
>>> : >
>>> : >>my membership and/or accommodations.  He passed the buck to his
>>> manger
>>> : >>who called
>>> : > me
>>> : > the following day and after listening to the same story told me he
>>> did
>>> : > not have the authority to offer accommodations and he will have one
>>> of
>>> : > the partners get into contact with me.  I am currently still waiting
>>> on
>>> : > the partner's call.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with the partner, or
>>> in
>>> : > case the partner does not return my call?
>>> : >>
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > _______________________________________________
>>> : > blindlaw mailing list
>>> : > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> : > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw
>>> : > _______________________________________________
>>> : > blindlaw mailing list
>>> : > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> : > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw
>>> : >
>>> :
>>> : _______________________________________________
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