[blindlaw] A dispute over paper-form accessibility

Tue Apr 1 17:37:55 CDT 2008

Well, my eventual actions are up in the air, but it's the "find someone," 
that I'm resistant to.  My personal matters re my own, and I don't have a 
"seeing eye person," to do things.  I explained in my first message on this 
topic that I live in a rather unfriendly place where such things just are 
not done.
As to your actual question, I do not know what type of form it is, as I have 
not downloaded it.  I have Jaws 4.51, and doubt I have the latest Adobe; I 
can and will research this.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A dispute over paper-form accessibility

> There are multiple types of PDF documents.  Do you know if they have 
> prepared the document as a PDF form with fields that you can fill in on 
> screen?  From your
> note, it sounds as though they do.  If that is the case, you might only 
> need to get the latest version of Adobe Acrobat Reader.  Even if your 
> screen reader is not the
> latest version, it might function well enough to allow you to fill in the 
> form which is similar to accessing a web page with forms.  However, it is 
> also possible that the
> PDF is simply the form itself with the intention to pring.  If that is the 
> case, you should be able to read the form to determin what is needed. 
> Then, to meet their
> deadlines, print out the form and sign it, and have someone fill in your 
> name and whatever information you are comfortable with, and then mark "see 
> attached."
> Attach the rest of the information on a separate sheet of paper and send 
> it in.  They will likely not accept this, but you will at least have met 
> any deadlines in a
> technical sense and you will have bought some time.
>
> Others here with a legal background will have to comment on weather they 
> are obligated to provide the form in another format.  This will likely 
> depend some upon
> how the form itself was created in PDF.  Possibly someone here could 
> convert the form to word as well, but this really should be resolved with 
> the agency.
>
> I would only add that you are likely going to have to find someone to do 
> some reading that you can trust.  Most of us have to do that even in this 
> age of technology.
> This won't be the last time you have to deal with something like this, and 
> in some cases, the legal obligation to provide material in an accessible 
> format is simply not
> clear.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:25:29 -0700, Mark BurningHawk wrote:
>
>>I didn't see Albert's message, so thanks for requoting it here.
>>I tend to agree that the solution is for me to upgrade my software.  This 
>>is
>>cost-prohibited right now, but I am trying to work out something with DOR; 
>>I
>>need a new scanner and software, as my older Reading Edge has died (and it
>>couldn't do this job anyway; no practical way to transfer the information
>>from scanner to this XP machine).  My ideal solution would be to be able 
>>to
>>scan the form into a document I could digitally manipulate, then do all 
>>the
>>check-marking and filling-in that was required, add a signature, print it
>>out and send it back.  Right now, though, this is not within my power.
>
>>I have, BTW, asked for an MS Word or Text file version of this form, and
>>they have declined, stating that PDF is the only available alternative
>>medium.  They insist on having a physical paper copy of the form, though;
>>nothing less will do.  I find that a bit weird in the digital age.
>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 7:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A dispute over paper-form accessibility
>
>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> If their form is truly in an accessible PDF form and the difficulty is
>>> that your software won't handle it, then I think Albert is correct that
>>> they are not obligated to
>>> account for all versions of software.  However, accessible PDF forms are
>>> not always as accessible as one might expect.  You could ask if they 
>>> could
>>> send you a
>>> version in Microsoft Word.  That is an option that is often used.  As a
>>> word document, you can fill it in usually in "overtype" mode and have it
>>> come out reasonably
>>> well.  There are tools that can convert PDF's into Word documents that
>>> might work for this purpose as well if you can't get a Word document.
>>> Whether the law is on
>>> your side or not in this, you will have to decide which battles to take
>>> on.  It is very possible that someone believes the form is accessible 
>>> but
>>> that it is not for practical
>>> reasons.  These situations are messy.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 06:16:13 -0400, albert griffith wrote:
>>>
>>>>I believe it's incumbent on you to maintain updated software if that's
>>>>what's required to fill out this form.  I think the student office is
>>>>obliged to make a reasonable effort to make their forms accessible and 
>>>>it
>>>>seems they have since I can read mine with the latest versions of jaws 
>>>>and
>>>>acrobat reader.  If you have an OCR. package, it may read the form.
>>>>Failing
>>>>these suggestions I haven't a clue.
>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>On
>>>>Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 8:23 PM
>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>Subject: [blindlaw] A dispute over paper-form accessibility
>>>
>>>>I am having the same argument with my government student loan repayment
>>>>office that I have had for years.
>>>
>>>>I wish to fill out a deferment, while I seek employment.  In order to do
>>>>this, I have some options:
>>>>I could download the PDF form from their website.  To my knowledge, I 
>>>>have
>>>>neither the updated version of Jaws, nor the updated version of Adobe
>>>>which
>>>>will allow me to manipulate this form, checking the proper boxes and
>>>>adding
>>>>a signature, once I have done so, much less print it out and send it 
>>>>back.
>>>>The INSIST the MUST have a paper form.
>>>
>>>>I could allow some person with sight to fill out this form.  It has been
>>>>my
>>>>policy to not allow unnecessary access by the sighted to my personal 
>>>>mail
>>>>or
>>>>financial records, but I do realize it would be a solution to bend that
>>>>rule; I am, at present, unwilling and not in a safe situation for this 
>>>>to
>>>>happen.  Also, I don't really have a sighted person around who would do 
>>>>it
>>>>at the moment.
>>>>Or, the department in question could make the form accessible to me. 
>>>>They
>>>>utterly refuse to do this, stating there's no way they can send it to me
>>>>in
>>>>another medium than print or PDF.
>>>
>>>>What, if any, rights do I have in this dispute?  I know that the easiest
>>>>solution would be to find a sighted person I even half-way trust to help
>>>>me
>>>>with it, but I object to this very strongly on a moral ground, and I 
>>>>think
>>>>that is constitutes discrimination to force me into this position.  As
>>>>well,
>>>>as I have said above, I don't have s sighted friend to provide this
>>>>charitable service for me, nor even someone I could pay--I live in a bad
>>>>neighborhood in an inner city environment.  Are there any avenues I can
>>>>take, other than these?\Thanks.
>>>
>>>>--Mark BurningHawk
>>>>Email:  Stone_troll at sbcglobal.net
>>>>my website:  http://www.panix.com/~mbaxter Namaste
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindlaw mailing list
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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