[blindlaw] meeting with clients

Fri Jun 8 17:07:52 CDT 2007

Well said, Jim.
Kathy Hagen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "McCarthy, Jim" <JMcCarthy at nfb.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients


> There are two possible ways to address an overpayment for the Social
> Security Administration.  The first is to seek a waiver and that is what
> Craig described.  The overpayment is not my fault and additionally, I do
> not have the funds to pay it back.  As Craig says proving one is not
> sufficient, but you must prove both.  The second approach is that the
> overpayment has occurred because of misapplication of facts, law or both
> by the Social Security Administration.  For blind people on SSDI who
> work, the easiest example an done that occurs regularly is that the
> nonblind Substantial gainful Activity (SGA) level is applied.  This is
> the amount that can be earned through work before benefit termination.
> The amount for blind people as you all probably know is higher than for
> nonblind.  That is clearly misapplying the rules.  That was all just as
> a point of clarification.
> 
> The problem that Kathy and other who help folks with social security
> overpayments have is that Social Security will go back several years.
> The situation she described where someone addressed the overpayment the
> knew and learned later of a claim for additional money is far too
> common.  I think that individuals could often win these but they don't.
> The SSA uses information they learn from tax filing and other federal
> data sharing to decide that there has been an overpayment.  These
> sources are quarterly or yearly wage numbers but the Social Security
> Program really works on a month to month basis.  The individual often
> lacks check stubs going back any time at all, let alone five or more
> years.  If those can be found and someone takes the time to compile
> them, many alleged overpayments would be proven false or at least to be
> a lot less than Social Security claims.    Mostly though lawyers do not
> touch these for a very good reason.  Why would you help someone with an
> overpayment when there is no way that person could possibly pay you.
> Often the overpayment is reduced, not eliminated so there is nothing
> from which to collect.  I believe that Kathy works for a Protection and
> Advocacy agency and they are just about the only ones who would dare to
> help.  They are also primarily not relying on clients to pay.  Actually,
> the NFB also does some selective overpayment work.
> 
> Within the past couple of years the Government Accountability Office
> published a report on overpayments to the Social Security
> Administration.  There is a whole lot of money owed the SSA according to
> the GAO report.  The problem is that the SSA really does not know how
> much is owed and has really sloppy records.  While the report looked at
> the stream of money the SSA would collect if its records were better, I
> was struck by the beneficiaries who get overpayment letters and the fact
> that the SSA has no idea why or really even how much is owed.  The
> result of this sloppiness is the story Kathy shared earlier, someone who
> tries to make right by the government only to learn that they want more
> later.  As for whether that is unconscionable, even if it is, Kathy
> would need to take the case to hearing in front of an Administrative law
> judge and that is said to take over 500 days on average which means
> often much more.  Well enough of this rant on overpayments.  Have a
> great week end.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Craig Borne
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:37 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients
> 
> Albert,
> My understanding of SSDI law with respect to over payments is that it is
> a two-pronged test:
> 1. The fault of over payment was on the part of the SSA; AND 2. The
> beneficiary has no means to pay back the over payment.
> Many folks can prove step 1, but it is step 2 that is the killer.  All
> monies are scrutinized.
> Craig
> 
> Craig Borne, Esq.
> 
> Ostendorf Zimmer Yake & Borne, LLC
> 
> Attorneys at Law
> 
> Office: (410) 529-2040 
> 
> Facsimile: (410) 574-6884            
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of albert griffith
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:06 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients
> 
> It seems as if it would be against equity and fair conscience to collect
> overpayments from this guy.  He didn't know he wasn't supposed to be
> receiving benefits, did he?  You don't have to respond, just a thought.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Kathleen Hagen
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:14 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients
> 
> Hello,  At present that creates somewhat of a problem for me as I am
> handling many overpayment social security cases.  They are labor
> intensive and usually quite large.  What I'm having to do, and it might
> change if the office says it costs too much money, is use a
> reader/assistant to go through the file with me, separate it into
> relevant documents I'm going to need, go with me to Social Security
> office to review files on occasion, help me organize information for
> clients when filling out overpayment waivers.  My secretary provides
> releases for clients to sign.  I take braille notes and discuss what
> will happen with my clients, write the memoranda, and mostly try to calm
> down the clients.  You see, what makes these cases so hard is that the
> agency usually doesn't catch up with someone for five or six years, by
> which time they can owe up to $70,000 or higher in overpayments.  I even
> have one case right now where a client had worked out a plan to pay back
> the overpayment, including using his credit card.  He had to file
> bankruptcy because his credit balance was so high.  Then, SSA just
> recently contacted him and told him that he should never have received
> SSDI at all, so now owes another $26,000.  Needless to say, he's
> hysterical.  That's really the hardest part.  Finding resources for
> clients to help them get back on track.
> 
> It's a little like helping someone filing for bankruptcy.  And I
> definitely need to use a reader to help with the paperwork.
> Okay, so that was a long and rambling answer.  I usually have my
> reader/assistant go with me to court or administrative hearings.  Right
> now I'm very lucky, although my reader is not, because she's unemployed
> and can pretty much be at my beck and call until she gets another job.
> If my reader can't go, i ask one of the clerks working in our office, if
> it's in the summer, to go along.  After all they get the experience of
> seeing meetings, courtroom pleadings, or even mediations.  You will
> probably find other blind people on list who are much more organized
> than I am.  I also will eagerly await what others say.
> Oh, and in recent years I don't have to use a reader much for research
> as West Law is pretty usable on line.  That's also great because when
> I'm quoting a case and citing, I can cut and paste right on the
> computer.
> 
> Kathy Hagen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients
> 
> 
>> Hi every one:
>>
>> I was just wondering how do members of this group efficiently handle 
>> meeting with clients and taking a record of what took place in the 
>> meeting i.e note taking/recording....
>>
>> At what point do you utilize your support staff?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Craig
>>
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>>
> 
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