[blindlaw] meeting with clients

Fri Jun 8 12:51:25 CDT 2007

There are two possible ways to address an overpayment for the Social
Security Administration.  The first is to seek a waiver and that is what
Craig described.  The overpayment is not my fault and additionally, I do
not have the funds to pay it back.  As Craig says proving one is not
sufficient, but you must prove both.  The second approach is that the
overpayment has occurred because of misapplication of facts, law or both
by the Social Security Administration.  For blind people on SSDI who
work, the easiest example an done that occurs regularly is that the
nonblind Substantial gainful Activity (SGA) level is applied.  This is
the amount that can be earned through work before benefit termination.
The amount for blind people as you all probably know is higher than for
nonblind.  That is clearly misapplying the rules.  That was all just as
a point of clarification.

The problem that Kathy and other who help folks with social security
overpayments have is that Social Security will go back several years.
The situation she described where someone addressed the overpayment the
knew and learned later of a claim for additional money is far too
common.  I think that individuals could often win these but they don't.
The SSA uses information they learn from tax filing and other federal
data sharing to decide that there has been an overpayment.  These
sources are quarterly or yearly wage numbers but the Social Security
Program really works on a month to month basis.  The individual often
lacks check stubs going back any time at all, let alone five or more
years.  If those can be found and someone takes the time to compile
them, many alleged overpayments would be proven false or at least to be
a lot less than Social Security claims.    Mostly though lawyers do not
touch these for a very good reason.  Why would you help someone with an
overpayment when there is no way that person could possibly pay you.
Often the overpayment is reduced, not eliminated so there is nothing
from which to collect.  I believe that Kathy works for a Protection and
Advocacy agency and they are just about the only ones who would dare to
help.  They are also primarily not relying on clients to pay.  Actually,
the NFB also does some selective overpayment work.

Within the past couple of years the Government Accountability Office
published a report on overpayments to the Social Security
Administration.  There is a whole lot of money owed the SSA according to
the GAO report.  The problem is that the SSA really does not know how
much is owed and has really sloppy records.  While the report looked at
the stream of money the SSA would collect if its records were better, I
was struck by the beneficiaries who get overpayment letters and the fact
that the SSA has no idea why or really even how much is owed.  The
result of this sloppiness is the story Kathy shared earlier, someone who
tries to make right by the government only to learn that they want more
later.  As for whether that is unconscionable, even if it is, Kathy
would need to take the case to hearing in front of an Administrative law
judge and that is said to take over 500 days on average which means
often much more.  Well enough of this rant on overpayments.  Have a
great week end.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Craig Borne
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients

Albert,
My understanding of SSDI law with respect to over payments is that it is
a two-pronged test:
1. The fault of over payment was on the part of the SSA; AND 2. The
beneficiary has no means to pay back the over payment.
Many folks can prove step 1, but it is step 2 that is the killer.  All
monies are scrutinized.
Craig

Craig Borne, Esq.

Ostendorf Zimmer Yake & Borne, LLC

Attorneys at Law

Office: (410) 529-2040 

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-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of albert griffith
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:06 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients

It seems as if it would be against equity and fair conscience to collect
overpayments from this guy.  He didn't know he wasn't supposed to be
receiving benefits, did he?  You don't have to respond, just a thought.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Kathleen Hagen
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:14 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients

Hello,  At present that creates somewhat of a problem for me as I am
handling many overpayment social security cases.  They are labor
intensive and usually quite large.  What I'm having to do, and it might
change if the office says it costs too much money, is use a
reader/assistant to go through the file with me, separate it into
relevant documents I'm going to need, go with me to Social Security
office to review files on occasion, help me organize information for
clients when filling out overpayment waivers.  My secretary provides
releases for clients to sign.  I take braille notes and discuss what
will happen with my clients, write the memoranda, and mostly try to calm
down the clients.  You see, what makes these cases so hard is that the
agency usually doesn't catch up with someone for five or six years, by
which time they can owe up to $70,000 or higher in overpayments.  I even
have one case right now where a client had worked out a plan to pay back
the overpayment, including using his credit card.  He had to file
bankruptcy because his credit balance was so high.  Then, SSA just
recently contacted him and told him that he should never have received
SSDI at all, so now owes another $26,000.  Needless to say, he's
hysterical.  That's really the hardest part.  Finding resources for
clients to help them get back on track.

It's a little like helping someone filing for bankruptcy.  And I
definitely need to use a reader to help with the paperwork.
Okay, so that was a long and rambling answer.  I usually have my
reader/assistant go with me to court or administrative hearings.  Right
now I'm very lucky, although my reader is not, because she's unemployed
and can pretty much be at my beck and call until she gets another job.
If my reader can't go, i ask one of the clerks working in our office, if
it's in the summer, to go along.  After all they get the experience of
seeing meetings, courtroom pleadings, or even mediations.  You will
probably find other blind people on list who are much more organized
than I am.  I also will eagerly await what others say.
Oh, and in recent years I don't have to use a reader much for research
as West Law is pretty usable on line.  That's also great because when
I'm quoting a case and citing, I can cut and paste right on the
computer.

Kathy Hagen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:18 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] meeting with clients

> Hi every one:
>
> I was just wondering how do members of this group efficiently handle 
> meeting with clients and taking a record of what took place in the 
> meeting i.e note taking/recording....
>
> At what point do you utilize your support staff?
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Craig
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw
>

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