From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Feb  1 16:11:49 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:11:49 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Let Freedom Ring: Braille Letters to President Barack
 Obama is now available
Message-ID: <auto-000137440468@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Dear Federationists:

In the fall of 2009, the National Federation of 
the Blind put out a call for Americans to write 
letters to President Barack Obama expressing the 
role that being able to read and write Braille 
plays in their lives.  The NFB was flooded with 
responses from a large variety of blind and 
sighted people?from school children to working 
professionals to retired senior citizens.  While 
there are great variances in the people who 
responded, one factor was the same: that Braille 
plays a vital role in their lives and is an 
important, and indeed necessary, tool for the blind.

We have compiled one hundred of these letters 
into a book intended to be presented to President 
Barack Obama.  This morning, February 1, 2010, 
Secretary of Education Arne Duncan received the 
publication on behalf of the President at a 
ceremony at the United States Department of Education.

During the event, Secretary Duncan, other 
dignitaries from the Department of Education, and 
leaders of the NFB heard from various speakers, 
including Marc Maurer, President of the National 
Federation of the Blind, two school children, and 
a parent of a blind child.  Fredric K. Schroeder, 
First Vice President of the NFB, presented the 
book and asked the Secretary to support the NFB?s 
goal of doubling the number of school-age 
children reading Braille. Secretary Duncan left 
the event with the knowledge that Braille is 
vital to the independence of the blind.  And he 
left armed with the book that will give President Obama this knowledge as well.

Let Freedom Ring: Braille Letters to President 
Barack Obama is now available for you to read on 
our Web site at 
<file:///http://is.gd/7jiz3>http<file:///http://is.gd/7jiz3>://is.gd/7jiz3.

This event and the release of this book is a 
great way to begin our 2010 Washington Seminar!

Let Federationism Ring!


Mark A. Riccobono
Executive Director, Jernigan Institute
National Federation of the Blind
<file:///mailto:mriccobono at nfb.org>mriccobono at nfb.org





From blindchildren at verizon.net  Tue Feb  2 23:16:45 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:16:45 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge
In-Reply-To: <80A7244F9B26420E81A28310921D916F@LivingRoom>
References: <80A7244F9B26420E81A28310921D916F@LivingRoom>
Message-ID: <mailman.155.1593446456.14746.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>

Wow, bonnie, beautiful interview, beautiful video, beautiful, 
articulate daughter!  thanks for sharing this with us.

Carol

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc

At 01:27 PM 1/31/2010, you wrote:
>Georgia just had their regional Braille Challenge and Aubrie had the 
>opportunity of being interviewed. You may watch it at the link 
>below. For JAWS users, it is not completely accessible.
>
>
>
>http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74308&catid=175
>
>Bonnie Lucas
>770-992-0484
>Cell: 678-480-0864
>lucas.bonnie at gmail.com
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 19:10:59 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:10:59 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge
Message-ID: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>

thanks Carol. By the way, she was first place in her category. We're very 
happy for her.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carol Castellano" <blindchildren at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge


> Wow, bonnie, beautiful interview, beautiful video, beautiful, articulate 
> daughter!  thanks for sharing this with us.
>
> Carol
>
> Carol Castellano, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 973-377-0976
> carol_castellano at verizon.net
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> At 01:27 PM 1/31/2010, you wrote:
>>Georgia just had their regional Braille Challenge and Aubrie had the 
>>opportunity of being interviewed. You may watch it at the link below. For 
>>JAWS users, it is not completely accessible.
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74308&catid=175
>>
>>Bonnie Lucas
>>770-992-0484
>>Cell: 678-480-0864
>>lucas.bonnie at gmail.com
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> 




From s.leinart at comcast.net  Wed Feb  3 19:47:18 2010
From: s.leinart at comcast.net (Steve & Karen Leinart)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:47:18 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge
In-Reply-To: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
References: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
Message-ID: <4B69D2C6.7@comcast.net>

Congratulations... Aubrie did an awesome job.  My son Matthew (7, 1st 
grade) is learning Braille and loved watching how fast Aubrie used her 
Brailler.  We watched it together twice, and he wanted to see more.  
She's a great role model.  Thanks for sharing.
Karen


>



From dhammelia at aol.com  Wed Feb  3 19:55:27 2010
From: dhammelia at aol.com (dhammelia at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:55:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Letters to President on Braille. (Bonnie Lucas)
In-Reply-To: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
References: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
Message-ID: <8CC7321F793F0F9-43AC-3766@webmail-m006.sysops.aol.com>


They passed out a list of the letters chosen to be presented in the book for President Obama.

We saw the letter from Bonnie Lucas was included.

Dave Hammel





-----Original Message-----
From: Bonnie Lucas <lucas.bonnie at gmail.com>
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge


thanks Carol. By the way, she was first place in her category. We're very happy for her. 
----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Castellano" <blindchildren at verizon.net> 
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 6:16 PM 
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge 
 
> Wow, bonnie, beautiful interview, beautiful video, beautiful, articulate > daughter! thanks for sharing this with us. 
> 
> Carol 
> 
> Carol Castellano, President 
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children 
> 973-377-0976 
> carol_castellano at verizon.net 
> www.nfb.org/nopbc 
> 
> At 01:27 PM 1/31/2010, you wrote: 
>>Georgia just had their regional Braille Challenge and Aubrie had the >>opportunity of being interviewed. You may watch it at the link below. For >>JAWS users, it is not completely accessible. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74308&catid=175 
>> 
>>Bonnie Lucas 
>>770-992-0484 
>>Cell: 678-480-0864 
>>lucas.bonnie at gmail.com 
>>_______________________________________________ 
>>blindkid mailing list 
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org 
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org 
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>blindkid: 
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
_______________________________________________ 
blindkid mailing list 
blindkid at nfbnet.org 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org 
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid: 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dhammelia%40aol.com 



From blindchildren at verizon.net  Wed Feb  3 22:14:07 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:14:07 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge
In-Reply-To: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
References: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
Message-ID: <mailman.156.1593446456.14746.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>

Way to go, Aubrie!

At 02:10 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote:
>thanks Carol. By the way, she was first place in her category. We're 
>very happy for her.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Castellano" 
><blindchildren at verizon.net>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 6:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge
>
>
>>Wow, bonnie, beautiful interview, beautiful video, beautiful, 
>>articulate daughter!  thanks for sharing this with us.
>>
>>Carol
>>
>>Carol Castellano, President
>>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>973-377-0976
>>carol_castellano at verizon.net
>>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>>At 01:27 PM 1/31/2010, you wrote:
>>>Georgia just had their regional Braille Challenge and Aubrie had 
>>>the opportunity of being interviewed. You may watch it at the link 
>>>below. For JAWS users, it is not completely accessible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74308&catid=175
>>>
>>>Bonnie Lucas
>>>770-992-0484
>>>Cell: 678-480-0864
>>>lucas.bonnie at gmail.com
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>for blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From kassyp36 at msn.com  Thu Feb  4 02:39:21 2010
From: kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:39:21 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC3-F31PgvP1ub0044953b@bay0-mc3-f31.Bay0.hotmail.com>
References: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
	<BAY0-MC3-F31PgvP1ub0044953b@bay0-mc3-f31.Bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL113-DS20B0581BFCB3456793C50CC3550@phx.gbl>

Bonnie, that's great! 

Kasondra Payne 




From agrima at nbp.org  Thu Feb  4 08:42:04 2010
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 02:42:04 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] NBP-Announce: Kids: Madeline - the print/braille book,
 and the  plush doll!
Message-ID: <auto-000137953681@mailfront2.g2host.com>

February 2010 Book Club Selection
Madeline
by Ludwig Bemelmans
Print/braille edition, $7.99
In contracted braille with one tactile drawing of Madeline
Ages 4-9

"In an old house in Paris that was covered with vines" lives plucky
Madeline with 11 other girls under the care of the kind Miss Clavel.
Nothing frightens Madeline - not tigers, not mice, not even getting
sick. Madeline wakes up in the night with appendicitis and is rushed off
to the hospital. The other girls visit Madeline after the operation and
see her gifts, her candy, and above all, her scar. To Madeline,
everything is a grand adventure!

A true classic - and a Caldecott Honor book -  'Madeline' continues to
enchant readers more than sixty years after its first publication. We've
included a tactile drawing of Madeline by artist Ann Cunningham.

And don't miss our Madeline Plush Doll for $9.95!

Barnes & Noble is allowing us to sell their Madeline doll - made
exclusively for their stores - to our Braille Book Club members!

This adorable 9-inch doll perfectly compliments the story book and
tactile drawing of Madeline. Adapted from Ludwig Bemelman's original
drawings, first published in 1939, the Madeline doll comes dressed for
adventure in the character's signature blue coat and yellow hat. By
comparing the 3D doll to the tactile drawing of Madeline in the book,
your child can begin to understand how pictures are composed. It's also
a must-have addition to any child's doll collection!

Bring out Madeline every time you read the book together!

Get the book at:
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BC1002-MADELINE.html

See the plush doll at:
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/MAD-DOLL.html


******
To order any books, send payment to:
NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext
20. Or order any of our books online at
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html .


_______________________________________________
Nbp mailing list
Nbp at nbp.org

PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and 
your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org .

Visit us at http://www.nbp.org




From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 18:20:30 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:20:30 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge
References: <A46949EBCAC44E028F2677F4FE9863BF@LivingRoom>
	<4B69D2C6.7@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <533B5C46BC2E4EF1A01EBDEA32B84AD4@LivingRoom>

Thank you so much. I will see to it that Aubrie sees your post as I think it 
is so important for her to know that when she does positive things related 
to her blindness, that young children really do benefit. Best of wishes to 
Matthew with school!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve & Karen Leinart" <s.leinart at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Aubrie and Braille challenge


> Congratulations... Aubrie did an awesome job.  My son Matthew (7, 1st 
> grade) is learning Braille and loved watching how fast Aubrie used her 
> Brailler.  We watched it together twice, and he wanted to see more.  She's 
> a great role model.  Thanks for sharing.
> Karen
>
>
>>
>
>
> 




From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Feb  6 02:53:55 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 20:53:55 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] NAGDU Seven Night Caribbean Cruise
Message-ID: <auto-000138535544@mailfront1.g2host.com>


National Association of Guide Dog Users



7-Night Caribbean Group Cruise



The National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) has partnered 
with Cheryl Echevarria, a member of NAGDU and Owner of 
Echevarriatravel.com, to sponsor a 7-day Caribbean Cruise for the 
benefit of NAGDU. For every person booking passage on this cruise, 
$25 will be donated to the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
with a matching contribution of $25 from Echevarriatravel.com



The National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) is a special 
interest Division of the National Federation of the Blind for people 
who currently use guide dogs as mobility tools, those considering 
getting a guide dog, or those who want to learn more about the use of 
such dogs. One of NAGDU's major projects is the establishment of a 
national toll-free education and advocacy hotline that will provide 
on-demand access to information about guide dog use, including 
information about state and federal laws that protect the civil 
rights of service animal users. This hotline will also afford callers 
the ability to speak with a specially trained volunteer advocate to 
help resolve access issues. All Proceeds from this cruise will be 
used to support this innovative service and other valuable programs 
of the National Association of Guide Dog Users.



Sailing Date: November 6, 2010 (round trip from Miami, FL)



Come enjoy a 7-night cruise aboard the new ship from Norwegian Cruise 
Lines, EPIC, which will make it's maiden voyage in July 2010. Enjoy 
the amenities this beautiful ship has to offer and visit the 
beautiful ports of St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Nassau and Miami, plus 
two additional days at sea. Whether it's the entertainment of Blue 
Man Group, Fat Cats, The Second City Comedy Troupe, the first aqua 
park at sea, or just relaxing at the spa or in a lounge chair at the 
pool, this cruise has something for every member of the family, 
including the kids.



Inside Staterooms (Category KK): $768.10*

Family Balcony Staterooms (Category B2): $1208.10*



*Other staterooms are available! (These are closed to groups, but can 
be added as an individual space and put into the group. Because of 
this the price may vary!).

The above pricing is per person and based upon double occupancy. 
Prices include $25 donation to the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users, cruise fare, port charges, and all government taxes and fees 
(subject to change). Prices do not include air fare, transfers, or 
gratuities (all can be added and appropriate charges will apply).



Documentation Required

A U.S. Passport, valid for 6 months after the date of travel, will be 
required to board the ship.



Payment Information

$300.00 per person deposit is due no later than June 1, 2010 ($25 of 
this deposit is non-refundable) Payment plans are available for the 
balance of the fare.

Final Payment is due no later than August 1, 2010



Trip cancellation insurance is available and highly recommended. It 
is suggested that passengers with chronic illnesses purchase travel 
health insurance. This insurance must be purchased at the time of the deposit.



For more information or to book your travel

Cheryl Echevarria
Independent Contractor
<http://echevarriatravel.com/>http://Echevarriatravel.com
1-866-580-5574
blog.echevarriatravel.com
<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>Reservations at echevarriatravel.com
Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10


Be sure to mention NAGDU to secure these rates!


From attorneywalker at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 22:50:48 2010
From: attorneywalker at gmail.com (Carlton Anne Cook Walker)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:50:48 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie & Brl Challenge
Message-ID: <aa85e5851002061450g7436c80bq41d434442e6e0bc1@mail.gmail.com>

Bonnie,

I just got caught up on my blindkid messages, and I showed the video to Anna
Catherine.  She was so excited to see her friend Aubrie on TV.

Please let Aubrie know how proud we all are -- she is, indeed, a terrific
role model.

This was particularly timely for us because Anna's TVI neglected to register
her for the Challenge before we moved -- and it's too late for her new TVI
to do so.  So, for the first time, Anna Catherine will compete in a regional
challenge -- In Baltimore, MD, on February 20.  I believe that seeing Aubrie
competing has lessened Anna's fears about going to a regional event.


Thanks again, and  congratulations on Aubrie's great performance in the
Challenge!




Take care,

Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Boiling Springs, PA    17007
Voice: 717-658-9894
Twitter: braillemom


From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Sun Feb  7 11:40:27 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 06:40:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] NAGDU Seven Night Caribbean Cruise
References: <auto-000138535544@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <199729EEF2794D23968E89D6D630A702@7PYZPJ1>

Interesting.  This looks like a really fun and inovative fund raiser.  I 
hope this all goes well, and a lot of money is raised for the hot line 
project.  Thanks for sharing this with us.  I'm broker than broke, so I 
donate blood to the red cross and breast milk to a local foster care 
project, but I will pass this on to rich, or quasi rich friends I have in 
mind.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:53 PM
Subject: [blindkid] NAGDU Seven Night Caribbean Cruise


>
> National Association of Guide Dog Users
>
>
>
> 7-Night Caribbean Group Cruise
>
>
>
> The National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) has partnered with 
> Cheryl Echevarria, a member of NAGDU and Owner of Echevarriatravel.com, to 
> sponsor a 7-day Caribbean Cruise for the benefit of NAGDU. For every 
> person booking passage on this cruise, $25 will be donated to the National 
> Association of Guide Dog Users with a matching contribution of $25 from 
> Echevarriatravel.com
>
>
>
> The National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) is a special interest 
> Division of the National Federation of the Blind for people who currently 
> use guide dogs as mobility tools, those considering getting a guide dog, 
> or those who want to learn more about the use of such dogs. One of NAGDU's 
> major projects is the establishment of a national toll-free education and 
> advocacy hotline that will provide on-demand access to information about 
> guide dog use, including information about state and federal laws that 
> protect the civil rights of service animal users. This hotline will also 
> afford callers the ability to speak with a specially trained volunteer 
> advocate to help resolve access issues. All Proceeds from this cruise will 
> be used to support this innovative service and other valuable programs of 
> the National Association of Guide Dog Users.
>
>
>
> Sailing Date: November 6, 2010 (round trip from Miami, FL)
>
>
>
> Come enjoy a 7-night cruise aboard the new ship from Norwegian Cruise 
> Lines, EPIC, which will make it's maiden voyage in July 2010. Enjoy the 
> amenities this beautiful ship has to offer and visit the beautiful ports 
> of St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Nassau and Miami, plus two additional days at 
> sea. Whether it's the entertainment of Blue Man Group, Fat Cats, The 
> Second City Comedy Troupe, the first aqua park at sea, or just relaxing at 
> the spa or in a lounge chair at the pool, this cruise has something for 
> every member of the family, including the kids.
>
>
>
> Inside Staterooms (Category KK): $768.10*
>
> Family Balcony Staterooms (Category B2): $1208.10*
>
>
>
> *Other staterooms are available! (These are closed to groups, but can be 
> added as an individual space and put into the group. Because of this the 
> price may vary!).
>
> The above pricing is per person and based upon double occupancy. Prices 
> include $25 donation to the National Association of Guide Dog Users, 
> cruise fare, port charges, and all government taxes and fees (subject to 
> change). Prices do not include air fare, transfers, or gratuities (all can 
> be added and appropriate charges will apply).
>
>
>
> Documentation Required
>
> A U.S. Passport, valid for 6 months after the date of travel, will be 
> required to board the ship.
>
>
>
> Payment Information
>
> $300.00 per person deposit is due no later than June 1, 2010 ($25 of this 
> deposit is non-refundable) Payment plans are available for the balance of 
> the fare.
>
> Final Payment is due no later than August 1, 2010
>
>
>
> Trip cancellation insurance is available and highly recommended. It is 
> suggested that passengers with chronic illnesses purchase travel health 
> insurance. This insurance must be purchased at the time of the deposit.
>
>
>
> For more information or to book your travel
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Independent Contractor
> <http://echevarriatravel.com/>http://Echevarriatravel.com
> 1-866-580-5574
> blog.echevarriatravel.com
> <mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>Reservations at echevarriatravel.com
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
> CST-1018299-10
>
>
> Be sure to mention NAGDU to secure these rates!
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 19:26:52 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:26:52 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie & Brl Challenge
References: <aa85e5851002061450g7436c80bq41d434442e6e0bc1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0E2830D108CA4107996206D28946D342@LivingRoom>

thank you so much. Aubrie was sitting here when I read your response. Email 
me off list and tell me about your move!

Bonnie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:50 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Aubrie & Brl Challenge


> Bonnie,
>
> I just got caught up on my blindkid messages, and I showed the video to 
> Anna
> Catherine.  She was so excited to see her friend Aubrie on TV.
>
> Please let Aubrie know how proud we all are -- she is, indeed, a terrific
> role model.
>
> This was particularly timely for us because Anna's TVI neglected to 
> register
> her for the Challenge before we moved -- and it's too late for her new TVI
> to do so.  So, for the first time, Anna Catherine will compete in a 
> regional
> challenge -- In Baltimore, MD, on February 20.  I believe that seeing 
> Aubrie
> competing has lessened Anna's fears about going to a regional event.
>
>
> Thanks again, and  congratulations on Aubrie's great performance in the
> Challenge!
>
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
> Carlton
>
> -- 
> Carlton Anne Cook Walker
> Boiling Springs, PA    17007
> Voice: 717-658-9894
> Twitter: braillemom
>
> 



From inland2wards at att.net  Mon Feb  8 20:29:07 2010
From: inland2wards at att.net (Anne Ward)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 12:29:07 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland
Message-ID: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>

This was sent to me this morning by Judith Lesner, who asked me to distribute it widely.

Anne Ward



Discrimination in Oakland?

 

Last night my very good friend Marvelena Quesada was told that she had to "sit in the back of the bus".  In this case, an East Bay ParaTransit bus.  The person givithng the order was the bus's dispatcher.  Marvelena's status that led up to the banishment to the back of the bus was her traveling with Darla.  Marvelena is blind and Darla is her seeing eye dog.

 

To start at the beginning, Marvelena and her husband Chris Gray came to my house for dinner.  They are both blind and Chris is the past president of the American Council of the Blind which is a national consumer group.  They had arranged to be picked up by East Bay ParaTransit for a ride home.  At about 9:15 they got a call that their ride was outside.  I walked out with them to bus number 352.  The driver asked if the dog was going along too.  Marvelena replied that it was.  The driver then decided that her bus was not positioned correctly and drove about a half block down the street.  By the time we got to her she was on her cell phone and refused entry to Chris and Marvelena, yelling at them through the partially opened door that no one had said anything about a dog and that she had "issues" with dogs.  She said they had to wait for another paratransit  bus to come and take them.  Chris said that they had a legal right to get on the bus with the dog and forced his way through the partially opened door and got on the bus.  The driver slammed the door and wouldn't let Marvelena and Darla on the bus.

 

Meanwhile the driver was speaking to her dispatcher on a speaker phone.  That was when the dispatcher made her Solomon like decision to end the impasse, "Go take the dog and sit in the back of the bus".  I informed the driver and dispatcher that it was no longer the 50's where they could get away with that.  Chris and Marvelena said that she would not move to the back.  While this was going on, Marvelena and Darla managed to get on the bus.  Marvelena was calling paratransit and she and I and another friend were conferring through the open door.  At that point the passenger on the bus said that she had had it with waiting so long and would walk the rest of the way home.  She got off the bus and left.  The driver reported that the passenger had left the bus because of the dog which was a baldfaced lie.  The driver then said that the company was sending another bus to take them home.

 

This all went on for some time when the driver closed the doors so that we could no longer talk to Chris and Marvelena, turned out the lights and left the bus.  Marvelena and Chris were left alone in a locked bus while the driver walked half a block away and spoke on her cell phone.  Chris then called 911 and two Oakland policemen arrived shortly there after.

 

One of the police asked my friend and I what was happening.  I explained the situation.  The policeman said something to the effect that it depended on the bus company's policy.  I said that was nonsense.  That it had nothing to do with the bus company, it was a federal law called the ADA.  Marvelena and her dog had the same right of access to public places as Marvelena did on her own.  He seemed unaware of the law.

 

Finally, after the police arrived, another bus arrived to take them home.  The altercation took about an hour and involved the waste of two bus drivers' time as well as that of two Oakland police personnel.

 

Questions that arise:

  1.. Why when so many people with disabilities are using service animals does a company whose sole clientele are people with disabilities hire a driver who will not drive a bus with a dog on it?
  2.. If the company feels compelled to hire folks who are afraid of dogs, why do they not routinely ask passengers if they are traveling with service animals so that they can send a not-afraid driver?
  3.. Why were the driver and the dispatcher not trained by the company to know the laws about access and seeing eye dogs?
  4.. Why was the driver not trained in basic courtesy?  She routinely yelled at us, slammed doors and at one point told me to "move him."  She was referring to Chris.  I explained that he was a person and he moved himself, I did not move him.
  5.. Why are the Oakland Police not trained in the fundamentals of ADA access laws?
 

Issues to note:

  1.. Darla was wearing a regulation Seeing Eye harness, did not make any noise, did not show any aggression despite the shouting of the driver and lay on the floor of the bus near Marvelena's feet the entire time.


From sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org  Mon Feb  8 22:10:13 2010
From: sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org (Susan Harper)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 17:10:13 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland
In-Reply-To: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
Message-ID: <f6a56b5c1002081410o29a41604r6955ffe62cd18e0d@mail.gmail.com>

I think this is deserving of a complaint filed with the bus company, stating
what was just stated and a copy to the Office of Civil Rights in your area,
as well as local representatives (especially the ones on the funding
committees for services).  This can not be tolerated.  Sounds like it was a
big mess and the dog was the best behaved in the bunch!  No one with a
service animal or without one should be treated in this manner by a service
provider and that is what the bus driver was.  The unfortunate reality is
that many folks are still treated as second class citizens based on someones
biased views.  You can legislate rules, but not attitudes.  I am very
interested to see what follow up occurs and the outcome.  Don't let this go.

Blessings,
Sue H.

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Anne Ward <inland2wards at att.net> wrote:

> This was sent to me this morning by Judith Lesner, who asked me to
> distribute it widely.
>
> Anne Ward
>
>
>
> Discrimination in Oakland?
>
>
>
> Last night my very good friend Marvelena Quesada was told that she had to
> "sit in the back of the bus".  In this case, an East Bay ParaTransit bus.
>  The person givithng the order was the bus's dispatcher.  Marvelena's status
> that led up to the banishment to the back of the bus was her traveling with
> Darla.  Marvelena is blind and Darla is her seeing eye dog.
>
>
>
> To start at the beginning, Marvelena and her husband Chris Gray came to my
> house for dinner.  They are both blind and Chris is the past president of
> the American Council of the Blind which is a national consumer group.  They
> had arranged to be picked up by East Bay ParaTransit for a ride home.  At
> about 9:15 they got a call that their ride was outside.  I walked out with
> them to bus number 352.  The driver asked if the dog was going along too.
>  Marvelena replied that it was.  The driver then decided that her bus was
> not positioned correctly and drove about a half block down the street.  By
> the time we got to her she was on her cell phone and refused entry to Chris
> and Marvelena, yelling at them through the partially opened door that no one
> had said anything about a dog and that she had "issues" with dogs.  She said
> they had to wait for another paratransit  bus to come and take them.  Chris
> said that they had a legal right to get on the bus with the dog and forced
> his way through the partially opened door and got on the bus.  The driver
> slammed the door and wouldn't let Marvelena and Darla on the bus.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile the driver was speaking to her dispatcher on a speaker phone.
>  That was when the dispatcher made her Solomon like decision to end the
> impasse, "Go take the dog and sit in the back of the bus".  I informed the
> driver and dispatcher that it was no longer the 50's where they could get
> away with that.  Chris and Marvelena said that she would not move to the
> back.  While this was going on, Marvelena and Darla managed to get on the
> bus.  Marvelena was calling paratransit and she and I and another friend
> were conferring through the open door.  At that point the passenger on the
> bus said that she had had it with waiting so long and would walk the rest of
> the way home.  She got off the bus and left.  The driver reported that the
> passenger had left the bus because of the dog which was a baldfaced lie.
>  The driver then said that the company was sending another bus to take them
> home.
>
>
>
> This all went on for some time when the driver closed the doors so that we
> could no longer talk to Chris and Marvelena, turned out the lights and left
> the bus.  Marvelena and Chris were left alone in a locked bus while the
> driver walked half a block away and spoke on her cell phone.  Chris then
> called 911 and two Oakland policemen arrived shortly there after.
>
>
>
> One of the police asked my friend and I what was happening.  I explained
> the situation.  The policeman said something to the effect that it depended
> on the bus company's policy.  I said that was nonsense.  That it had nothing
> to do with the bus company, it was a federal law called the ADA.  Marvelena
> and her dog had the same right of access to public places as Marvelena did
> on her own.  He seemed unaware of the law.
>
>
>
> Finally, after the police arrived, another bus arrived to take them home.
>  The altercation took about an hour and involved the waste of two bus
> drivers' time as well as that of two Oakland police personnel.
>
>
>
> Questions that arise:
>
>  1.. Why when so many people with disabilities are using service animals
> does a company whose sole clientele are people with disabilities hire a
> driver who will not drive a bus with a dog on it?
>  2.. If the company feels compelled to hire folks who are afraid of dogs,
> why do they not routinely ask passengers if they are traveling with service
> animals so that they can send a not-afraid driver?
>  3.. Why were the driver and the dispatcher not trained by the company to
> know the laws about access and seeing eye dogs?
>  4.. Why was the driver not trained in basic courtesy?  She routinely
> yelled at us, slammed doors and at one point told me to "move him."  She was
> referring to Chris.  I explained that he was a person and he moved himself,
> I did not move him.
>  5.. Why are the Oakland Police not trained in the fundamentals of ADA
> access laws?
>
>
> Issues to note:
>
>  1.. Darla was wearing a regulation Seeing Eye harness, did not make any
> noise, did not show any aggression despite the shouting of the driver and
> lay on the floor of the bus near Marvelena's feet the entire time.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
>


From inland2wards at att.net  Tue Feb  9 01:33:38 2010
From: inland2wards at att.net (Anne Ward)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 17:33:38 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] CAPVI news: Formation of Youth Focus Groups (youths
	16-28, families, professionals)
Message-ID: <5E6CB57521474214A3BF14D854DE4571@dennisPC>

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Jenkins <njenkins at supportforfamilies.org>
To: info-supportforfamilies.org at lists.supportforfamilies.org
Sent: Fri, Feb 5, 2010 7:50 am
Subject: [Info] FW: [BADSL] FW: Formation of Youth Focus Groups


Good Morning,

This looks like a great opportunity from the staff at WID: 

Subject: World Institute on Disability needs your help in recruiting
circle of support for focus groups! 

Participants will each receive a $50 VISA gift card.

Dear Colleagues of CWII at WID and Mr. MacDonald's policy and employment
projects,

 

Hello! My name is Silvia Kim and I work at the World Institute on
Disability. I am seeking youth with disabilities and their circle of
support (parents, special ed teacher, service providers) for our
upcoming focus groups. We really would like to hear from the community,
especially special ed teachers and service providers, about what would
best serve their needs when helping and planning out their clients next
step in life.  My hope is you would help spread the word about this fast
approaching focus group! Please feel free to circulate this e-mail
widely!   

 

Here's the description we provided to recruit youth with disabilities
and their circle of support:

The World Institute on Disability invites students & their circle of
support to participate in a focus group discussion about youth with
disabilities and their benefits. We are redesigning our school and work
website calculator (www.db101.org <http://www.db101.org/> ). We want
input! Tell us your concerns about life planning and addressing gaps in
information when seeking employment for yourself or someone you know. 

Focus groups (FG) will take about 2 hours, and have a maximum of 8
participants in each focus groups, ages 16-28 and their circle of
support. This will take place on February 18 & 19 at the World Institute
on Disability. 

Focus Group Blocks & Time:
World Institute on Disability
510 16th St. 2nd Fl.
Oakland, CA 94612

Thursday, February 18, 4-6pm: 
16-22 yr olds

Thursday, February 18, 7-9pm: 
23-28 yr olds

Friday, February 19, 7-9pm:
Circle of support: Family members, teachers, service providers

Participants will each receive a $50 VISA gift card.

 We encourage students and their circle of support from all backgrounds
and different types of disability to participate. We are especially
seeking those who are determined by Social Security as disabled, but
encourage those who are not determined to still contact us. We want to
ensure that when redesigning our calculator we have an inclusive
process. 

If you (or someone you know) are interested, please contact Silvia Kim,
Projects Coordinator at the World Institute on Disability no later than
February 12. Please provide the following information:

Which focus group will you be attending? 

Please select which best describes you:

Family member of a child with a disability

Friend of person with a disability

Service Provider 

Teacher 

Other: 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Silvia 

 

Silvia Kim

Projects Coordinator

California Work Incentives Initiative

World Institute on Disability

www.db101.org

Phone: (510) 251-4325

Fax (510) 763-4109

Silvia at wid.org

 

Sandi Soliday

Alameda County Developmental Disabilities Council

1000 Broadway, Suite 500

Oakland, CA 94607

(510) 267-3261 Phone

(510 273-3865  Fax

sandi.soliday at acgov.org 

www.acphd.org/ddc 

 


From rholloway at gopbc.org  Tue Feb  9 02:45:41 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:45:41 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland
In-Reply-To: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
Message-ID: <E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org>

That is absolutely deplorable. I'm no expert, but personally I think  
they are completely in the wrong. Some quick web research would seem  
to support that as well--

First of all, AC Transit  is basically part of BART-- the Bay Area  
Rapid Transit service. Go to their web site and the first paragraph  
states that "AC Transit and BART established this service to meet the  
requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act." So there is  
their own confirmation that they are obliged to comply with the ADA;  
it is why they exist.

http://www.actransit.org/riderinfo/paratransit.wu

Referencing The ADA, guidedogs.com indicates that "Title II requires  
that State and local governments give people with disabilities an  
equal opportunity to benefit from all of their programs."  Sounds to  
me like they are not doing so-- to say the least.

If I were involved, I would strongly consider calling some local  
media, especially TV stations, telling them what happened and pointing  
them to the sources I mentioned above, for a start.

A calm presentation to the media will make BART and their associates  
to look pretty bad and I suspect they will want to save face and  
correct what they will claim was one misguided employee who does not  
represent the policies and practices of the BART system, or something  
really similar that.

Richard



On Feb 8, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Anne Ward wrote:

> This was sent to me this morning by Judith Lesner, who asked me to  
> distribute it widely.
>
> Anne Ward
>
>
>
> Discrimination in Oakland?
>
>
>
> Last night my very good friend Marvelena Quesada was told that she  
> had to "sit in the back of the bus".  In this case, an East Bay  
> ParaTransit bus.  The person givithng the order was the bus's  
> dispatcher.  Marvelena's status that led up to the banishment to the  
> back of the bus was her traveling with Darla.  Marvelena is blind  
> and Darla is her seeing eye dog.
>
>
>
> To start at the beginning, Marvelena and her husband Chris Gray came  
> to my house for dinner.  They are both blind and Chris is the past  
> president of the American Council of the Blind which is a national  
> consumer group.  They had arranged to be picked up by East Bay  
> ParaTransit for a ride home.  At about 9:15 they got a call that  
> their ride was outside.  I walked out with them to bus number 352.   
> The driver asked if the dog was going along too.  Marvelena replied  
> that it was.  The driver then decided that her bus was not  
> positioned correctly and drove about a half block down the street.   
> By the time we got to her she was on her cell phone and refused  
> entry to Chris and Marvelena, yelling at them through the partially  
> opened door that no one had said anything about a dog and that she  
> had "issues" with dogs.  She said they had to wait for another  
> paratransit  bus to come and take them.  Chris said that they had a  
> legal right to get on the bus with the dog and forced his way  
> through the partially opened door and got on the bus.  The driver  
> slammed the door and wouldn't let Marvelena and Darla on the bus.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile the driver was speaking to her dispatcher on a speaker  
> phone.  That was when the dispatcher made her Solomon like decision  
> to end the impasse, "Go take the dog and sit in the back of the  
> bus".  I informed the driver and dispatcher that it was no longer  
> the 50's where they could get away with that.  Chris and Marvelena  
> said that she would not move to the back.  While this was going on,  
> Marvelena and Darla managed to get on the bus.  Marvelena was  
> calling paratransit and she and I and another friend were conferring  
> through the open door.  At that point the passenger on the bus said  
> that she had had it with waiting so long and would walk the rest of  
> the way home.  She got off the bus and left.  The driver reported  
> that the passenger had left the bus because of the dog which was a  
> baldfaced lie.  The driver then said that the company was sending  
> another bus to take them home.
>
>
>
> This all went on for some time when the driver closed the doors so  
> that we could no longer talk to Chris and Marvelena, turned out the  
> lights and left the bus.  Marvelena and Chris were left alone in a  
> locked bus while the driver walked half a block away and spoke on  
> her cell phone.  Chris then called 911 and two Oakland policemen  
> arrived shortly there after.
>
>
>
> One of the police asked my friend and I what was happening.  I  
> explained the situation.  The policeman said something to the effect  
> that it depended on the bus company's policy.  I said that was  
> nonsense.  That it had nothing to do with the bus company, it was a  
> federal law called the ADA.  Marvelena and her dog had the same  
> right of access to public places as Marvelena did on her own.  He  
> seemed unaware of the law.
>
>
>
> Finally, after the police arrived, another bus arrived to take them  
> home.  The altercation took about an hour and involved the waste of  
> two bus drivers' time as well as that of two Oakland police personnel.
>
>
>
> Questions that arise:
>
>  1.. Why when so many people with disabilities are using service  
> animals does a company whose sole clientele are people with  
> disabilities hire a driver who will not drive a bus with a dog on it?
>  2.. If the company feels compelled to hire folks who are afraid of  
> dogs, why do they not routinely ask passengers if they are traveling  
> with service animals so that they can send a not-afraid driver?
>  3.. Why were the driver and the dispatcher not trained by the  
> company to know the laws about access and seeing eye dogs?
>  4.. Why was the driver not trained in basic courtesy?  She  
> routinely yelled at us, slammed doors and at one point told me to  
> "move him."  She was referring to Chris.  I explained that he was a  
> person and he moved himself, I did not move him.
>  5.. Why are the Oakland Police not trained in the fundamentals of  
> ADA access laws?
>
>
> Issues to note:
>
>  1.. Darla was wearing a regulation Seeing Eye harness, did not make  
> any noise, did not show any aggression despite the shouting of the  
> driver and lay on the floor of the bus near Marvelena's feet the  
> entire time.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Feb  9 03:40:45 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:40:45 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
Message-ID: <B8BC084554FE442BAE2D937EA6350342@7PYZPJ1>

While, I agree that this is a bad situation all around, and that something 
must be done.  I do not disagree with a driver afraid of dogs asking her to 
move to the back of the bus.  These are not big long city buses, ala Rosa 
Parks, and there is no danger of her missing her stop or under-going extreme 
strain because of sitting a few seats back.  Although the driver freaked and 
was rude, she may also have been panicked.  I think the bus company is at 
fault certainly, but I do have some limited empathy for the driver.  I 
routinely offer to sit in the back of our para transit buses, because the 
driver is afraid of large dogs, and honestly, on our buses at least, there 
is more room and therefore comfort for the dog in the back.  Now, obviously, 
this bus driver needs a career change, and some sensativity training.  And, 
I think this should be taken to the next level with action taken, but the 
back of the bus thing seems to be being played up an awful lot, and that is 
not the issue here.  The issue is the initial refusal, as well as the way in 
which the driver refered to the blind individual and dog as "them" and then 
left them on a locked bus.  Also, although this was inapropriate, they were 
not truly locked on the bus.  Those doors can be forced open, even when 
locked, for safety reasons.  Is this dog really a "Seeing Eye dog" or a 
guide dog?  Seeing Eye dogs only come from the Seeing Eye in New Jersey. 
They have the same rights as guide dogs from other schools such as Guide Dog 
Foundation, Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, Guiding Eyes for the Blind, etc, 
but, it is important that a widely distributed article like this be 
accurate.  Additionally, has she contacted Seeing Eye, or, whatever school 
her dog is from?  Something this extreme, they might be willing and able to 
help with.  I hope this is resolved soon, with some serious changes in 
people's thinking resultant.  I will pass this on to a guide dog group I am 
a part of, and show it to the trainer from GDF that I am currently training 
with this week.  Take care all.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anne Ward" <inland2wards at att.net>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient: ;@smtp127.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 3:29 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland


> This was sent to me this morning by Judith Lesner, who asked me to 
> distribute it widely.
>
> Anne Ward
>
>
>
> Discrimination in Oakland?
>
>
>
> Last night my very good friend Marvelena Quesada was told that she had to 
> "sit in the back of the bus".  In this case, an East Bay ParaTransit bus. 
> The person givithng the order was the bus's dispatcher.  Marvelena's 
> status that led up to the banishment to the back of the bus was her 
> traveling with Darla.  Marvelena is blind and Darla is her seeing eye dog.
>
>
>
> To start at the beginning, Marvelena and her husband Chris Gray came to my 
> house for dinner.  They are both blind and Chris is the past president of 
> the American Council of the Blind which is a national consumer group. 
> They had arranged to be picked up by East Bay ParaTransit for a ride home. 
> At about 9:15 they got a call that their ride was outside.  I walked out 
> with them to bus number 352.  The driver asked if the dog was going along 
> too.  Marvelena replied that it was.  The driver then decided that her bus 
> was not positioned correctly and drove about a half block down the street. 
> By the time we got to her she was on her cell phone and refused entry to 
> Chris and Marvelena, yelling at them through the partially opened door 
> that no one had said anything about a dog and that she had "issues" with 
> dogs.  She said they had to wait for another paratransit  bus to come and 
> take them.  Chris said that they had a legal right to get on the bus with 
> the dog and forced his way through the partially opened door and got on 
> the bus.  The driver slammed the door and wouldn't let Marvelena and Darla 
> on the bus.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile the driver was speaking to her dispatcher on a speaker phone. 
> That was when the dispatcher made her Solomon like decision to end the 
> impasse, "Go take the dog and sit in the back of the bus".  I informed the 
> driver and dispatcher that it was no longer the 50's where they could get 
> away with that.  Chris and Marvelena said that she would not move to the 
> back.  While this was going on, Marvelena and Darla managed to get on the 
> bus.  Marvelena was calling paratransit and she and I and another friend 
> were conferring through the open door.  At that point the passenger on the 
> bus said that she had had it with waiting so long and would walk the rest 
> of the way home.  She got off the bus and left.  The driver reported that 
> the passenger had left the bus because of the dog which was a baldfaced 
> lie.  The driver then said that the company was sending another bus to 
> take them home.
>
>
>
> This all went on for some time when the driver closed the doors so that we 
> could no longer talk to Chris and Marvelena, turned out the lights and 
> left the bus.  Marvelena and Chris were left alone in a locked bus while 
> the driver walked half a block away and spoke on her cell phone.  Chris 
> then called 911 and two Oakland policemen arrived shortly there after.
>
>
>
> One of the police asked my friend and I what was happening.  I explained 
> the situation.  The policeman said something to the effect that it 
> depended on the bus company's policy.  I said that was nonsense.  That it 
> had nothing to do with the bus company, it was a federal law called the 
> ADA.  Marvelena and her dog had the same right of access to public places 
> as Marvelena did on her own.  He seemed unaware of the law.
>
>
>
> Finally, after the police arrived, another bus arrived to take them home. 
> The altercation took about an hour and involved the waste of two bus 
> drivers' time as well as that of two Oakland police personnel.
>
>
>
> Questions that arise:
>
>  1.. Why when so many people with disabilities are using service animals 
> does a company whose sole clientele are people with disabilities hire a 
> driver who will not drive a bus with a dog on it?
>  2.. If the company feels compelled to hire folks who are afraid of dogs, 
> why do they not routinely ask passengers if they are traveling with 
> service animals so that they can send a not-afraid driver?
>  3.. Why were the driver and the dispatcher not trained by the company to 
> know the laws about access and seeing eye dogs?
>  4.. Why was the driver not trained in basic courtesy?  She routinely 
> yelled at us, slammed doors and at one point told me to "move him."  She 
> was referring to Chris.  I explained that he was a person and he moved 
> himself, I did not move him.
>  5.. Why are the Oakland Police not trained in the fundamentals of ADA 
> access laws?
>
>
> Issues to note:
>
>  1.. Darla was wearing a regulation Seeing Eye harness, did not make any 
> noise, did not show any aggression despite the shouting of the driver and 
> lay on the floor of the bus near Marvelena's feet the entire time.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Feb  9 03:45:57 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:45:57 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<f6a56b5c1002081410o29a41604r6955ffe62cd18e0d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F01E662FBCA14ACA8DF15C7423FB0D27@7PYZPJ1>

The scary thing, to me at least, is not the bus company's part, it is the 
police's.  An airport shuttle once made my mom and I, and her guide dog Katy 
wait over an hour for another shuttle, because they were going on about the 
dog having to be in a crate and muzzled, if we were going to ride with other 
people.  They made a huge deal about having to get a special shuttle just 
for us.  Mom called the NYPD, and no disrespect after September 11th, but on 
this occation, they sucked, in a big way.  They did a whole fat lot of 
nothing, telling us that if we were eventually being provided with 
transpirtation, that we had to just deal and they gave us the impression we 
were wasting their time.  Bus drivers, clerks, etc, are pretty low on the 
food chane, and they will hastle us from time to time, but when the law 
up-holders, the protectors of the peace, of our rights, the police, can't be 
counted on, that scares the crap out of me.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Harper" <sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland


>I think this is deserving of a complaint filed with the bus company, 
>stating
> what was just stated and a copy to the Office of Civil Rights in your 
> area,
> as well as local representatives (especially the ones on the funding
> committees for services).  This can not be tolerated.  Sounds like it was 
> a
> big mess and the dog was the best behaved in the bunch!  No one with a
> service animal or without one should be treated in this manner by a 
> service
> provider and that is what the bus driver was.  The unfortunate reality is
> that many folks are still treated as second class citizens based on 
> someones
> biased views.  You can legislate rules, but not attitudes.  I am very
> interested to see what follow up occurs and the outcome.  Don't let this 
> go.
>
> Blessings,
> Sue H.
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Anne Ward <inland2wards at att.net> wrote:
>
>> This was sent to me this morning by Judith Lesner, who asked me to
>> distribute it widely.
>>
>> Anne Ward
>>
>>
>>
>> Discrimination in Oakland?
>>
>>
>>
>> Last night my very good friend Marvelena Quesada was told that she had to
>> "sit in the back of the bus".  In this case, an East Bay ParaTransit bus.
>>  The person givithng the order was the bus's dispatcher.  Marvelena's 
>> status
>> that led up to the banishment to the back of the bus was her traveling 
>> with
>> Darla.  Marvelena is blind and Darla is her seeing eye dog.
>>
>>
>>
>> To start at the beginning, Marvelena and her husband Chris Gray came to 
>> my
>> house for dinner.  They are both blind and Chris is the past president of
>> the American Council of the Blind which is a national consumer group. 
>> They
>> had arranged to be picked up by East Bay ParaTransit for a ride home.  At
>> about 9:15 they got a call that their ride was outside.  I walked out 
>> with
>> them to bus number 352.  The driver asked if the dog was going along too.
>>  Marvelena replied that it was.  The driver then decided that her bus was
>> not positioned correctly and drove about a half block down the street. 
>> By
>> the time we got to her she was on her cell phone and refused entry to 
>> Chris
>> and Marvelena, yelling at them through the partially opened door that no 
>> one
>> had said anything about a dog and that she had "issues" with dogs.  She 
>> said
>> they had to wait for another paratransit  bus to come and take them. 
>> Chris
>> said that they had a legal right to get on the bus with the dog and 
>> forced
>> his way through the partially opened door and got on the bus.  The driver
>> slammed the door and wouldn't let Marvelena and Darla on the bus.
>>
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile the driver was speaking to her dispatcher on a speaker phone.
>>  That was when the dispatcher made her Solomon like decision to end the
>> impasse, "Go take the dog and sit in the back of the bus".  I informed 
>> the
>> driver and dispatcher that it was no longer the 50's where they could get
>> away with that.  Chris and Marvelena said that she would not move to the
>> back.  While this was going on, Marvelena and Darla managed to get on the
>> bus.  Marvelena was calling paratransit and she and I and another friend
>> were conferring through the open door.  At that point the passenger on 
>> the
>> bus said that she had had it with waiting so long and would walk the rest 
>> of
>> the way home.  She got off the bus and left.  The driver reported that 
>> the
>> passenger had left the bus because of the dog which was a baldfaced lie.
>>  The driver then said that the company was sending another bus to take 
>> them
>> home.
>>
>>
>>
>> This all went on for some time when the driver closed the doors so that 
>> we
>> could no longer talk to Chris and Marvelena, turned out the lights and 
>> left
>> the bus.  Marvelena and Chris were left alone in a locked bus while the
>> driver walked half a block away and spoke on her cell phone.  Chris then
>> called 911 and two Oakland policemen arrived shortly there after.
>>
>>
>>
>> One of the police asked my friend and I what was happening.  I explained
>> the situation.  The policeman said something to the effect that it 
>> depended
>> on the bus company's policy.  I said that was nonsense.  That it had 
>> nothing
>> to do with the bus company, it was a federal law called the ADA. 
>> Marvelena
>> and her dog had the same right of access to public places as Marvelena 
>> did
>> on her own.  He seemed unaware of the law.
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, after the police arrived, another bus arrived to take them home.
>>  The altercation took about an hour and involved the waste of two bus
>> drivers' time as well as that of two Oakland police personnel.
>>
>>
>>
>> Questions that arise:
>>
>>  1.. Why when so many people with disabilities are using service animals
>> does a company whose sole clientele are people with disabilities hire a
>> driver who will not drive a bus with a dog on it?
>>  2.. If the company feels compelled to hire folks who are afraid of dogs,
>> why do they not routinely ask passengers if they are traveling with 
>> service
>> animals so that they can send a not-afraid driver?
>>  3.. Why were the driver and the dispatcher not trained by the company to
>> know the laws about access and seeing eye dogs?
>>  4.. Why was the driver not trained in basic courtesy?  She routinely
>> yelled at us, slammed doors and at one point told me to "move him."  She 
>> was
>> referring to Chris.  I explained that he was a person and he moved 
>> himself,
>> I did not move him.
>>  5.. Why are the Oakland Police not trained in the fundamentals of ADA
>> access laws?
>>
>>
>> Issues to note:
>>
>>  1.. Darla was wearing a regulation Seeing Eye harness, did not make any
>> noise, did not show any aggression despite the shouting of the driver and
>> lay on the floor of the bus near Marvelena's feet the entire time.
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> 




From icdx at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  9 05:38:02 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:38:02 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] BrailleNote Compatible Bluetooth-Enabled Printer
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <DB3CAB445DCD475F8C75B6B4EFE8C49E@CSMC.EDU>

Hi Everyone,

Does anyone know of a specific printer model that prints reliably via 
Bluetooth with the BrailleNote mPower/Apex?

It can be either Bluetooth-Enabled or Bluetooth-compatible -> I just want 
something reliable.

It doesn't have to be fancy- it is just for text.

The simpler that better.

Any specific suggestions would be very welcomed.

Thanks

Eric V




From k7uij at panix.com  Tue Feb  9 05:39:29 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:39:29 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Discrimination in Oakland
In-Reply-To: <B8BC084554FE442BAE2D937EA6350342@7PYZPJ1>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<B8BC084554FE442BAE2D937EA6350342@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <20100209053929.k7uij@panix.com>

It is important to ascertain whether or not the individuals *want* assistance. Like it or not, there are organizational politics here as Chris Gray is not a member of NFB and, as far as I know, is perfectly happy to have it that way. NFB will help him if asked but I suspect he has organizational resources aplenty behind him already.

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\(was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, Feb 8, 2010 20:11:03
Subject: Re: [blkid] Discrimination in Oakland

>
>
> While, I agree that this is a bad situation all around, and that something 
> must be done.  I do not disagree with a driver afraid of dogs asking her to 
> move to the back of the bus.  These are not big long city buses, ala Rosa 
> Parks, and there is no danger of her missing her stop or under-going extreme 
> strain because of sitting a few seats back.  Although the driver freaked and 
> was rude, she may also have been panicked.  I think the bus company is at 
> fault certainly, but I do have some limited empathy for the driver.  I 
> routinely offer to sit in the back of our para transit buses, because the 
> driver is afraid of large dogs, and honestly, on our buses at least, there 
> is more room and therefore comfort for the dog in the back.  Now, obviously, 
> this bus driver needs a career change, and some sensativity training.  And, 
> I think this should be taken to the next level with action taken, but the 
> back of the bus thing seems to be being played up an awful lot, and that is 
> not the issue here.  The issue is the initial refusal, as well as the way in 
> which the driver refered to the blind individual and dog as "them" and then 
> left them on a locked bus.  Also, although this was inapropriate, they were 
> not truly locked on the bus.  Those doors can be forced open, even when 
> locked, for safety reasons.  Is this dog really a "Seeing Eye dog" or a 
> guide dog?  Seeing Eye dogs only come from the Seeing Eye in New Jersey. 
> They have the same rights as guide dogs from other schools such as Guide Dog 
> Foundation, Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, Guiding Eyes for the Blind, etc, 
> but, it is important that a widely distributed article like this be 
> accurate.  Additionally, has she contacted Seeing Eye, or, whatever school 
> her dog is from?  Something this extreme, they might be willing and able to 
> help with.  I hope this is resolved soon, with some serious changes in 
> people's thinking resultant.  I will pass this on to a guide dog group I am 
> a part of, and show it to the trainer from GDF that I am currently training 
> with this week.  Take care all.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anne Ward" <inland2wards at att.net>
> To: <Undisclosed-Recipient: ;@smtp127.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 3:29 PM
> Subject: [blkid] Discrimination in Oakland
> 
> 
> > This was sent to me this morning by Judith Lesner, who asked me to 
> > distribute it widely.
> >
> > Anne Ward
> >
> >
> >
> > Discrimination in Oakland?
> >
> >
> >
> > Last night my very good friend Marvelena Quesada was told that she had to 
> > "sit in the back of the bus".  In this case, an East Bay ParaTransit bus. 
> > The person givithng the order was the bus's dispatcher.  Marvelena's 
> > status that led up to the banishment to the back of the bus was her 
> > traveling with Darla.  Marvelena is blind and Darla is her seeing eye dog.
> >
> >
> >
> > To start at the beginning, Marvelena and her husband Chris Gray came to my 
> > house for dinner.  They are both blind and Chris is the past president of 
> > the American Council of the Blind which is a national consumer group. 
> > They had arranged to be picked up by East Bay ParaTransit for a ride home. 
> > At about 9:15 they got a call that their ride was outside.  I walked out 
> > with them to bus number 352.  The driver asked if the dog was going along 
> > too.  Marvelena replied that it was.  The driver then decided that her bus 
> > was not positioned correctly and drove about a half block down the street. 
> > By the time we got to her she was on her cell phone and refused entry to 
> > Chris and Marvelena, yelling at them through the partially opened door 
> > that no one had said anything about a dog and that she had "issues" with 
> > dogs.  She said they had to wait for another paratransit  bus to come and 
> > take them.  Chris said that they had a legal right to get on the bus with 
> > the dog and forced his way through the partially opened door and got on 
> > the bus.  The driver slammed the door and wouldn't let Marvelena and Darla 
> > on the bus.
> >
> >
> >
> > Meanwhile the driver was speaking to her dispatcher on a speaker phone. 
> > That was when the dispatcher made her Solomon like decision to end the 
> > impasse, "Go take the dog and sit in the back of the bus".  I informed the 
> > driver and dispatcher that it was no longer the 50's where they could get 
> > away with that.  Chris and Marvelena said that she would not move to the 
> > back.  While this was going on, Marvelena and Darla managed to get on the 
> > bus.  Marvelena was calling paratransit and she and I and another friend 
> > were conferring through the open door.  At that point the passenger on the 
> > bus said that she had had it with waiting so long and would walk the rest 
> > of the way home.  She got off the bus and left.  The driver reported that 
> > the passenger had left the bus because of the dog which was a baldfaced 
> > lie.  The driver then said that the company was sending another bus to 
> > take them home.
> >
> >
> >
> > This all went on for some time when the driver closed the doors so that we 
> > could no longer talk to Chris and Marvelena, turned out the lights and 
> > left the bus.  Marvelena and Chris were left alone in a locked bus while 
> > the driver walked half a block away and spoke on her cell phone.  Chris 
> > then called 911 and two Oakland policemen arrived shortly there after.
> >
> >
> >
> > One of the police asked my friend and I what was happening.  I explained 
> > the situation.  The policeman said something to the effect that it 
> > depended on the bus company's policy.  I said that was nonsense.  That it 
> > had nothing to do with the bus company, it was a federal law called the 
> > ADA.  Marvelena and her dog had the same right of access to public places 
> > as Marvelena did on her own.  He seemed unaware of the law.
> >
> >
> >
> > Finally, after the police arrived, another bus arrived to take them home. 
> > The altercation took about an hour and involved the waste of two bus 
> > drivers' time as well as that of two Oakland police personnel.
> >
> >
> >
> > Questions that arise:
> >
> >  1.. Why when so many people with disabilities are using service animals 
> > does a company whose sole clientele are people with disabilities hire a 
> > driver who will not drive a bus with a dog on it?
> >  2.. If the company feels compelled to hire folks who are afraid of dogs, 
> > why do they not routinely ask passengers if they are traveling with 
> > service animals so that they can send a not-afraid driver?
> >  3.. Why were the driver and the dispatcher not trained by the company to 
> > know the laws about access and seeing eye dogs?
> >  4.. Why was the driver not trained in basic courtesy?  She routinely 
> > yelled at us, slammed doors and at one point told me to "move him."  She 
> > was referring to Chris.  I explained that he was a person and he moved 
> > himself, I did not move him.
> >  5.. Why are the Oakland Police not trained in the fundamentals of ADA 
> > access laws?
> >
> >
> > Issues to note:
> >
> >  1.. Darla was wearing a regulation Seeing Eye harness, did not make any 
> > noise, did not show any aggression despite the shouting of the driver and 
> > lay on the floor of the bus near Marvelena's feet the entire time.
> > _______________________________________________
> > blkid mailing list
> > blindkid at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> > blkid:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From icdx at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  9 06:27:32 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:27:32 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>

Howdy All,
What day will the parent portion of the convention be starting?
Thanks
Eric V



From k7uij at panix.com  Tue Feb  9 11:15:22 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:15:22 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
In-Reply-To: <9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org>
	<9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <20100209111522.k7uij@panix.com>

How about July 1?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\(was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, Feb 8, 2010 23:02:21
Subject: [blkid] National Convention 2010

>
>
> Howdy All,
> What day will the parent portion of the convention be starting?
> Thanks
> Eric V
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  9 12:11:16 2010
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 04:11:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
In-Reply-To: <9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org>
	<9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <307353.59658.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I believe we'd be meeting on Saturday, July 3, since that is seminar day. Maybe Carol or someone more in the know can tell us for definite.

 Debby
bwbddl at yahoo.com




________________________________
From: DrV <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:27:32 AM
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010

Howdy All,
What day will the parent portion of the convention be starting?
Thanks
Eric V

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bwbddl%40yahoo.com



      

From k7uij at panix.com  Tue Feb  9 13:54:47 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 05:54:47 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
In-Reply-To: <307353.59658.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org>
	<9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>
	<307353.59658.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100209135447.k7uij@panix.com>

That is correct. Saturday, July 3.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\(was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 5:47:04
Subject: Re: [blkid] National Convention 2010

>
>
> I believe we'd be meeting on Saturday, July 3, since that is seminar day. Maybe Carol or someone more in the know can tell us for definite.
> 
>  Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: DrV <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:27:32 AM
> Subject: [blkid] National Convention 2010
> 
> Howdy All,
> What day will the parent portion of the convention be starting?
> Thanks
> Eric V
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bwbddl%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From dblair2525 at msn.com  Tue Feb  9 14:02:18 2010
From: dblair2525 at msn.com (Pat Renfranz)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 07:02:18 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] BrailleNote Compatible Bluetooth-Enabled Printer
In-Reply-To: <DB3CAB445DCD475F8C75B6B4EFE8C49E@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP89FA0648CE0EA740B1893BD5500@phx.gbl>

Hi Eric-
Here is what Caroline is using these days with a BrailleNote:
HP Deskjet 6940 (Bluetooth compatible; we use HP Bluetooth adapter)
HP Photosmart D7260 (Bluetooth compatible; we use HP Bluetooth adapter) a
very nice printer
HP Officejet H470 with bluetooth (this is hp's mobile printer) kind of
pricey but very small

We identified the first 2 by taking the Braillenote to office supply stores
and trying printers one by one to see which worked first via just a USB
connection. 

I don't know what Apex is and how that might affect compatibility.

Good luck,
Pat




On 2/8/10 10:38 PM, "Eric Vasiliauskas" <icdx at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Does anyone know of a specific printer model that prints reliably via
> Bluetooth with the BrailleNote mPower/Apex?
> 
> It can be either Bluetooth-Enabled or Bluetooth-compatible -> I just want
> something reliable.
> 
> It doesn't have to be fancy- it is just for text.
> 
> The simpler that better.
> 
> Any specific suggestions would be very welcomed.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Eric V
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dblair2525%40msn.com
> 





From missheather at comcast.net  Tue Feb  9 14:16:13 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 08:16:13 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] URGENT Blind, girl, must adopt by March 9, Asia,
	$4000+ grant
Message-ID: <FE6400393ADE462D8A4BBFB98449A922@heathersony>

For your information. Please respond to the e-mail address listed in the e-mail.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: adoptanorphan 
To: Blindhomeschooler at yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 7:38 PM
Subject: [Blindhomeschooler] URGENT Blind, girl,must adopt by March 9, Asia, $4000+ grant


  
URGENT
Extreme Emergency Adoption 

Girl from Asia, Blind, Aging Out March 9, 2010
$4,000 Adoption Grant Available plus Possible Additional Assistance

Do you already have a dossier and an approved I-600 (not I-800) logged-in in China- including singles? Are you approved to adopt two children? Are you approved to adopt an older child with special needs? Do you have a cooperative USCIS office? If so, please contact us immediately regarding this girl. She will age out on March 9. This child's adoptive family must have a dossier already logged in with China, with an I-600 approval, in order to complete her adoption before she turns 14.

YTY. Girl. Despite her small size, she is 13. She has been able to make the most of the opportunities offered in the boarding school for the blind which she attends. She has learned Braille, enjoys studying language and makes good grades. However, a family who can offer her love and attention as well as a full spectrum of resources for the sight impaired, will help her blossom. She has some vision in her left eye; she does not have a right eye and she has a heart issue (involving bicuspid II SM). When she turns 14 she will no longer be able to be adopted domestically or internationally. There is a $4000 Promise Child grant for eligible families for this adoption. PLEASE ask about a possible additional fee reduction. Please contact a Family Finders Case Manager for more information. Her ID is 16226.
WACAP (www.wacap.org) is a non-profit adoption agency. Please email us at FamilyFinders at wacap.org 1-800-732-1887 or 206-575-4550



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From dlcolton at parkcity.net  Tue Feb  9 14:43:39 2010
From: dlcolton at parkcity.net (Denise Colton)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 07:43:39 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010-
In-Reply-To: <20100209111522.k7uij@panix.com>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC><E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org><9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>
	<20100209111522.k7uij@panix.com>
Message-ID: <D09350FEBEF444A8A6AC2BC5427462BB@DeniseDesktop>

The date for the National Organization of Parents of Blind Children (NOPBC)
Parent Seminar Day is Saturday July 3 with the regular part of the NFB
convention beginning the following day and ending with the banquet on W July
7th.

Denise Colton
NOPBC Board Member
Park City, UT

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 4:15 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] National Convention 2010

How about July 1?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\(was
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, Feb 8, 2010 23:02:21
Subject: [blkid] National Convention 2010

>
>
> Howdy All,
> What day will the parent portion of the convention be starting?
> Thanks
> Eric V
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dlcolton%40parkcit
y.net





From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 14:48:38 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:48:38 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Transition
Message-ID: <C16005E890524CD6A5C94A656AFDA67B@LivingRoom>

Hello Listers,
In attending NOPBC meetings about transition in the past, presenters have said that VR should be involved in transition meetings when children turn 14 which is generally when they begin high school. Aubrie turns 14 in June and we are having her IEP this March to begin the process of getting her setup for high school next year. would it be important for VR to be there for this meeting before she turns 14 or would having them come at the end of her Freshman year when she is about to turn 15 be adequate. they actually said that they do not become until the child is 16; in which case, I am going to have to make a good case for them to come next year, let alone getting them to come as early as this year. For any of you who have experience working with stubberon folks like this, could you please shed some light on the best and most effective approach to get support from VR. thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Bonnie
Bonnie Lucas
770-992-0484
Cell: 678-480-0864
lucas.bonnie at gmail.com

From sdefrancesco at optonline.net  Tue Feb  9 17:28:10 2010
From: sdefrancesco at optonline.net (Sherry DeFrancesco)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:28:10 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] baby girl needs a home
Message-ID: <4236FEC50F4949839F47B88100405D94@WDOMLAP3>

 
NOTICE FROM THE SHEPHERD'S CROOK MINISTRIES:

We have just learned of a situation involving a little girl here in Ohio who has not yet been born and who is in need of a family. She was supposed to have been delivered via Cesarean section in early
March, but it looks like her birth is imminent. The birth mother is currently in the hospital and has been given steroids to aid the development of the child's lungs as the end of the pregnancy draws
near. In addition to being born somewhat premature, a neonatal neurologist believes that this baby girl is going to be blind and will have MRDD, hydrocephalus, seizures, and cerebal palsy. A final diagnosis will be made after the delivery, but this is what is expected at this point. The baby will be transferred to Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus once she is born so that she can be
evaluated for a shunt that will relieve the pressure caused by her hydrocephalus.

The reason that this precious little girl is being put up for adoption is that the birth mother is currently incarcerated. Because of her inability to parent the infant after she is born, we really need to find a family for her soon, lest she be placed into the foster care system. Up to this point, the birth mother has been calling the baby Annabelle, and hopes that the name can stay with the baby in some form. She would also like to receive annual updates on this girl via photos and a letter. The agency that is working to place her "Caring for Kids" is not charging any fees for their services. That means that the only fees that the adoptive family will face are the attorneys' fees, although there might be minimal fees for post-placement visits, as well.

Anyone who is interested in adopting this baby girl, please write to
annabelle at theshepherdscrook.org for more information. And please join us in praying for this tiny one's future.

In Him,
The Shepherd's Crook Ministries



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From blindchildren at verizon.net  Tue Feb  9 23:43:50 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:43:50 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
In-Reply-To: <307353.59658.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC>
	<E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org>
	<9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU>
	<307353.59658.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <407069.65882.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Yup, you got it.
Carol

At 07:11 AM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
>I believe we'd be meeting on Saturday, July 3, since that is seminar 
>day. Maybe Carol or someone more in the know can tell us for definite.
>
>  Debby
>bwbddl at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: DrV <icdx at earthlink.net>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:27:32 AM
>Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
>
>Howdy All,
>What day will the parent portion of the convention be starting?
>Thanks
>Eric V
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bwbddl%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From hollym12 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 03:13:05 2010
From: hollym12 at gmail.com (holly miller)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 22:13:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
Message-ID: <7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>

I just wanted to jump in to say Hank is adopted from China & has Albinism.
He was almost 6 years old when he came home (July 2006).
If anyone has questions about the process I'd be happy to chat with you
about it.
The special needs program moves much faster than the "healthy" side of
things, most people can complete the process in a year or less.
There are many boys available, not just girls and a wide range of ages,
sometimes as young as a year.  Older children often have financial
assistance available.  There are kids with varying types of VI/Blindness but
since Albinism is what's on my radar, I can say there are virtualy always
kids with Albinism available.

Here is the video adoption announcement we sent out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNJaZMiT94o

Holly
aka Hank's mom

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Deborah Kent Stein <
dkent5817 at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>
>
> I have been asked to post the following announcement.  Please help to
> spread the word to anyone who might be interested.
>
> Debbie
>
> ________
>
> I work for an international adoption agency that primarily places Waiting
> Children (special needs).  On our last visit to China in November, we met a
> few children that are visually impaired. I would love to find a home for
> these children. Is there any way that I can submit a notice to spread the
> word?  Or do you have any other suggestions?
>
>    Thanks,
>
>    Lydia Stewart
>    Madison Adoption Associates
>    1009 Woodstream Drive
>    Wilmington, DE 19810
>    302.475.8977
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hollym12%40gmail.com
>


From blindchildren at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 14:42:51 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:42:51 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fw: [accessibleimage] Senses of Dancing
In-Reply-To: <33D767EB43724882A0369DC58ED8B2B5@D3DTZP41>
References: <33D767EB43724882A0369DC58ED8B2B5@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <252075.15670.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I really enjoyed watching this video.  If you do tune in, know that 
the first minute or so has only the voice and subtitles.  The image 
comes in a little later.  Thanks for sending this, Robert.
Carol

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc

At 08:42 AM 1/27/2010, you wrote:
>Hello:
>
>     I thought the following might be of interest.
>
>Regards,
>
>Robert
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Yayla" <fnugg at online.no>
>To: <accessibleimage at freelists.org>; 
><art_beyond_sight_learning_tools at nfbnet.org>; "Access to Art 
>Museums" <artbeyondsightmuseums at nfbnet.org>; "Art Beyond Sight 
>Advocacy" <art_beyond_sight_advocacy at nfbnet.org>; "Art Beyond Sight 
>Educators List" <art_beyond_sight_educators at nfbnet.org>; "Art Beyond 
>Sight Theory and Research" <art_beyond_sight_theory_and_research at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:19 AM
>Subject: [accessibleimage] Senses of Dancing
>
>
>>In Sao Paulo, a ballet teacher has been giving classes to blind 
>>girls for more than 10 years. Teacher and pupils overcome the 
>>difficulties in teaching and learning of such a difficult art and 
>>discover a new sense in dancing.
>>
>>YouTube video narration in Portuguese  subtitled in English
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxE0-LUauik&feature=related
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From blindchildren at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 17:25:44 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:25:44 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] STEM-ulating Growth in New Fields
In-Reply-To: <auto-000133755547@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000133755547@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <961683.9901.qm@smtp101.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi Natalie,

I wonder if NOPBC can glom on to this idea.  We are always looking 
for students for our panel on Seminar morning.  Would you let me know 
if any of the entrants who are still youths would make a good speaker 
for our panel?

Thanks,
carol

At 08:59 PM 1/5/2010, you wrote:

>Federationists:
>
>Have you or your child participated in one of the following NCBYS 
>programs: Science Academy 2004, Rocket On! 2004, Science Academy 
>2005, Rocket On! 2005, Science Academy 2006, Rocket On! 2006, Youth 
>Slam 2007, Jr. Science Academy 2008, or Youth Slam 2009?  If so, we 
>have a contest for you! Show us in a creative way what science means 
>to you now. You can write a poem, write an essay, submit original 
>song lyrics, or create a piece of tactile art. The theme of this 
>contest is "STEM-ulating Growth in New Fields." The top ten entries 
>will be featured on the brand new Accessible Bulletin Board in the 
>Betsy Zaborowski Conference Room at the NFB Jernigan Institute. The 
>top ten entries will also be featured on 
><http://www.blindscience.org/>www.blindscience.org and in NFB 
>publications. In addition, the creator of the first place entry will 
>receive a $25 gift certificate to iTunes!
>
>If you are interested in entering this STEM-ulating contest. please 
>visit <http://www.blindscience.org/>www.blindscience.org and follow 
>the "STEM-ulating Growth in New Fields Contest" link for the rules 
>and to fill out an online entry form. Entries are due no later than 
>March 31, 2010. If you have questions, please contact Natalie 
>Shaheen at the NFB Jernigan Institute 
>(<mailto:Nshaheen at nfb.org>Nshaheen at nfb.org or 410-659-9314, extension 2293).
>
>Warmest regards,
>Natalie Shaheen
>
>
>Natalie L. Shaheen, MEd
>Education Program Specialist
>Jernigan Institute
>NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
>200 E. Wells Street
>at Jernigan Place.
>Baltimore, MD 21230
>Phone: (410) 659-9314 x2293
>Email: <mailto:nshaheen at nfb.org>nshaheen at nfb.org
>Fax: (410) 659-5129
>Visit: <http://www.nfb.org/>www.nfb.org
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From icdx at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 11 04:56:24 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:56:24 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] BrailleNote Compatible Bluetooth-Enabled Printer
References: <BLU0-SMTP89FA0648CE0EA740B1893BD5500@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5A1A3279C8064D5EB84C2A6B69DFEA62@CSMC.EDU>

Thanks Pat

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Renfranz" <dblair2525 at msn.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 06:02
Subject: Re: [blindkid] BrailleNote Compatible Bluetooth-Enabled Printer


> Hi Eric-
> Here is what Caroline is using these days with a BrailleNote:
> HP Deskjet 6940 (Bluetooth compatible; we use HP Bluetooth adapter)
> HP Photosmart D7260 (Bluetooth compatible; we use HP Bluetooth adapter) a
> very nice printer
> HP Officejet H470 with bluetooth (this is hp's mobile printer) kind of
> pricey but very small
>
> We identified the first 2 by taking the Braillenote to office supply 
> stores
> and trying printers one by one to see which worked first via just a USB
> connection.
>
> I don't know what Apex is and how that might affect compatibility.
>
> Good luck,
> Pat
>
>
>
>
> On 2/8/10 10:38 PM, "Eric Vasiliauskas" <icdx at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> Does anyone know of a specific printer model that prints reliably via
>> Bluetooth with the BrailleNote mPower/Apex?
>>
>> It can be either Bluetooth-Enabled or Bluetooth-compatible -> I just want
>> something reliable.
>>
>> It doesn't have to be fancy- it is just for text.
>>
>> The simpler that better.
>>
>> Any specific suggestions would be very welcomed.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Eric V
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dblair2525%40msn.com
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 




From JFreeh at nfb.org  Thu Feb 11 11:43:33 2010
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:43:33 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Federal Judge Orders the National Conference of Bar
 Examiners to Provide Individualized Testing Accommodations to Blind Law
 School Graduate
Message-ID: <auto-000139252193@mailfront1.g2host.com>



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen, National Federation of the Blind, (410) 659-9314, ext. 2330

Scott LaBarre, LaBarre Law Offices, P.C., (303) 504-5979

Daniel Goldstein, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP, (410) 962-1030

Anna Levine, Disability Rights Advocates, (510) 665-8644



Federal Judge Orders the National Conference of Bar Examiners
to Provide Individualized Testing Accommodations

to Blind Law School Graduate



San Francisco, California (February 5, 2010):  A federal court has 
ruled that the National Conference of Bar Examiners (NCBE) will cause 
a blind law school graduate irreparable harm unless it provides her 
the technology-based testing accommodations she needs to take two 
exams required to become a member of the State Bar of 
California.  The court issued its ruling in an order granting the law 
school graduate's motion for preliminary injunction on Thursday, 
February 4, 2010.  The court's ruling allows the plaintiff, Stephanie 
Enyart, to take the February 2010 Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) 
and March 2010 Multistate Professional Responsibility Examination 
(MPRE) on a laptop computer equipped with the assistive technology 
software Ms. Enyart relies upon for screen reading (JAWS) and screen 
magnification (ZoomText).



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
said: "The National Federation of the Blind is extremely pleased with 
the ruling in this case.  Law and equity simply do not permit the 
NCBE to dictate a one-size-fits-all solution for all bar candidates 
with disabilities.  We hope that this ruling will cause the NCBE to 
think long and hard before it denies the requested accommodations of 
applicants to take its examinations."



The plaintiff, Stephanie Enyart, said: "A little over a year ago I 
sent my first request for accommodations on the March 2009 MPRE, and 
tonight I can go to sleep knowing when and how I can effectively take 
the exams to fulfill my dreams."



Anna Levine of Disability Rights Advocates, an attorney representing 
the plaintiff, said: "I hope that our hard-fought victory here will 
send a message to testing organizations that they need to comply with 
the ADA and provide each individual test taker with a disability the 
accommodations that he or she needs to demonstrate his or her actual 
knowledge, skills, and abilities."



The suit was filed on November 3, 2009, due to the NCBE's refusal, on 
multiple occasions during the past year, to allow Ms. Enyart to use 
the same technology on the MBE and MPRE that she has used on 
university and law school exams and in various jobs and 
internships.  The suit charged that the NCBE violated the Americans 
with Disabilities Act (ADA) and California's Unruh Civil Rights Act 
by denying accommodations on the MBE and the MPRE.



NCBE had argued that it fulfilled its legal obligations to Ms. Enyart 
by offering alternative accommodations, such as a human reader, 
notwithstanding evidence that these alternatives did not, in fact, 
accommodate Ms. Enyart's disability.  In rejecting NCBE's argument, 
the court's ruling paves the way for other individuals prevented from 
pursuing their professional dreams by high stakes testing providers 
who take a rigid approach to disability accommodations.



The plaintiff is represented with the support of the National 
Federation of the Blind by LaBarre Law Offices, P.C., in Denver, 
Colorado, and by Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP, in Baltimore, 
Maryland.  The plaintiff is further represented by Disability Rights 
Advocates, a nonprofit law center that specializes in civil rights 
cases on behalf of persons with disabilities, based in Berkeley, California.





###



About the National Federation of the Blind



With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind 
(NFB) is the largest and most influential membership organization of 
blind people in the United States.  The NFB improves blind people's 
lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs 
encouraging independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading 
force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's 
blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the 
Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in 
the United States for the blind led by the blind.



__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 4852 (20100209) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

<http://www.eset.com>http://www.eset.com


From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Wed Feb 10 16:40:13 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:40:13 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
	<7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>

I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind or 
VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that the child is 
blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, especially if the 
child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or if the agency lies to 
move the child out of the program.  In your opinion and experience, are 
there opertunities out there, perhaps with the agency you mentioned, to 
adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only disability, or where 
the system will be up front about the number, type and degree of special 
needs?  Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, as a blind parent, of a 
blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could offer something special 
to a blind child in need of a family, some time in the future.  Thoughts??
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China


>I just wanted to jump in to say Hank is adopted from China & has Albinism.
> He was almost 6 years old when he came home (July 2006).
> If anyone has questions about the process I'd be happy to chat with you
> about it.
> The special needs program moves much faster than the "healthy" side of
> things, most people can complete the process in a year or less.
> There are many boys available, not just girls and a wide range of ages,
> sometimes as young as a year.  Older children often have financial
> assistance available.  There are kids with varying types of VI/Blindness 
> but
> since Albinism is what's on my radar, I can say there are virtualy always
> kids with Albinism available.
>
> Here is the video adoption announcement we sent out
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNJaZMiT94o
>
> Holly
> aka Hank's mom
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Deborah Kent Stein <
> dkent5817 at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I have been asked to post the following announcement.  Please help to
>> spread the word to anyone who might be interested.
>>
>> Debbie
>>
>> ________
>>
>> I work for an international adoption agency that primarily places Waiting
>> Children (special needs).  On our last visit to China in November, we met 
>> a
>> few children that are visually impaired. I would love to find a home for
>> these children. Is there any way that I can submit a notice to spread the
>> word?  Or do you have any other suggestions?
>>
>>    Thanks,
>>
>>    Lydia Stewart
>>    Madison Adoption Associates
>>    1009 Woodstream Drive
>>    Wilmington, DE 19810
>>    302.475.8977
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hollym12%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From dlcolton at parkcity.net  Thu Feb 11 15:32:54 2010
From: dlcolton at parkcity.net (Denise Colton)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:32:54 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
In-Reply-To: <407069.65882.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <C72B9ABF2B5344DC876878BC22B0E3C0@dennisPC><E632F250-BC87-4F1B-8755-D3DCD8A38CA0@gopbc.org><9E27A4E4F8CC431E812DBA1472FDB1E6@CSMC.EDU><307353.59658.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<407069.65882.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4DF469C6C5F34E95A65F0AAF8D50EEFA@DeniseDesktop>

I gave the wrong date for NFB convention end- last day is Thursday July 8
per NFB website. 
Denise

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carol Castellano
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 4:44 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] National Convention 2010

Yup, you got it.
Carol

At 07:11 AM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
>I believe we'd be meeting on Saturday, July 3, since that is seminar 
>day. Maybe Carol or someone more in the know can tell us for definite.
>
>  Debby
>bwbddl at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: DrV <icdx at earthlink.net>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:27:32 AM
>Subject: [blindkid] National Convention 2010
>
>Howdy All,
>What day will the parent portion of the convention be starting?
>Thanks
>Eric V
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bwbddl%40yaho
>o.com
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren
>%40verizon.net



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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dlcolton%40parkcit
y.net



From hollym12 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 17:51:07 2010
From: hollym12 at gmail.com (holly miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:51:07 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
	<7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <7d85dc6d1002110951g1a9473afu61f21aa3e523ec45@mail.gmail.com>

You pose a good question Heather.
The short answer is just like a child you give birth to, when you adopt a
child there are no guarantees as to what issues you might end up dealing
with.  A person definitely needs to go into this being wiling to take a leap
of faith and be prepared to deal with whatever may come.  There's no factory
warranty.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean it to be.  I'm
thrilled when someone chooses international adoption but I'd never criticize
someone who doesn't.  We all have to make the choices that work for our own
family and it's important to understand and be realistic about all the
factors before making those choices.  Domestic adoption doesn't come with
any guarantees either and has it's own unique pitfalls but in most cases
you'd be able to meet the child and draw your own conclusions before you
commit, that might be an option to explore.

For the longer answer, I can only speak about the China adoption program, I
am not well versed in adoptions from other countries. China is considered a
very stable & "safe" country to adopt from a paperwork/process point of
view.  The rules and fees are clearly stated up front and are applied
consistently.  While there can be some horror stories dredged up on the
internet, overall there are very few surprises when it comes to the process
itself.

The information about the children is controlled by China, not the
individual adoption agencies.  The files on the children are prepared by the
orphanage staff and then filtered through the central adoption office in
China run by the government. Those files are then distributed randomly to
the various agencies in the US.  As far as the quality of information about
a child, it's pretty much consistent across all agencies.  Meaning that no
one agency gets better information than another.  There are occasions where
an extra nugget of information turns up through someone visiting the
orphanage or other back channels but that's hit or miss, not something that
can be counted on.  You absolutely should research any agency carefully, get
personal referrals, compare fees etc.  Doing an internet search will find
you lots of blogs & message boards. There are good agencies & bad agencies
but that has more to do with their business practices than the types of
children they place.

Generally speaking, China does not offer children up for adoption that are
known to have a severe mental disability.  The key word though is known.
Things do slip through the cracks, both for mental and medical issues.
Medical exams are cursory. The quality of staff (and care) varies greatly
from one orphanage to another. The person compiling the report may be a
qualified social worker or may be a layperson checking off boxes.   Some
organic conditions may not be apparent at a very young age and the files are
put together several months or even over a year before a potential parent
reads them.  It may be another year before you bring that child home.  A lot
can change in that time and you won't necessarily receive updated
information.  Even if the child does not have an organic brain issue, you
have to consider the emotional effect being raised in an institutional
setting can have.  Different kids have different levels of resiliency but I
dare say no child comes through entirely unscathed.  Virtually all children
will have delays in comparison to their homegrown peers, simply from lack of
opportunity.

For us personally, Hank's file said his eyesight was normal.  He had never
had an actual eye exam, this was based on the observations of whoever filled
out the forms. I don't think there was any deception involved, I think the
person filing out the forms honestly didn't realize he was visually
impaired. Most likely they didn't know anything about Albinism except that
it makes his skin & hair white.  He is legally blind but he developed very
good coping skills for himself.  I can understand the casual observer not
realizing he has vision problems especially since he was a toddler at the
time his file was created. We knew going in he had Albinism and I had done
enough research to know his vision had to be impacted in some way.  If we
had gone by the report alone, we would have had a big surprise.

We did have a little scare when we were in the paperwork process.  A parent
who had visited the orphanage contacted us to say they had seen Hank (he's
easy to spot in a crowd!) and he was grouped in the room with the kids that
did have mental disabilities.  They didn't get to interact with him but they
wanted us to know they were concerned that it was apparent these kids were
segregated from the more typical children and Hank was in with that group.
Obviously we went forward anyway but it did cause concern and there was no
way to get clarification.  Turns out Hank has no cognitive issues, in fact
he's exceptionally bright.  Why was he in that group of kids?  I can't know
for sure but I have a hunch it's more of a statement to the cultural beliefs
about Albinism more than anything about Hank's abilities.

He does have emotional scars from his upbringing. He was almost 6 when we
adopted him and he came from a place that no child should be subjected to
for even a day. That is a bigger impact on our day to day life than him
being blind.  Even though I did my homework, even though I spent lots of
time talking to the been there, done that crowd, his emotional issues were a
lot harder to handle than I ever imagined.  Is he a great kid?  Yes!  Do I
love him with every fiber of my being? Absolutely!  I don't regret adopting
him for a second but I've got to say, I wouldn't have thought I was strong
enough to handle this before I actually had to handle it.  Then I think
about how strong he had to be just to survive to the point he could be
adopted and it stops me in my tracks.  He is an incredible child.  I know
every mother thinks that but there's something about this kid.  People are
drawn to him.  Even at NFB functions, I can introduce myself and get that
kind of blank "who is this lady?" smile.  Then I say "I'm Hank's mom..." and
I get "OH!!!!  I love Hank!!!!"

Ok, I think I've rambled on enough!
I hope all of this is taken in the spirit intended and I'm happy to clarify
anything the best I can.

Holly
aka Hank's mom


On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind or
> VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that the child is
> blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, especially if the
> child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or if the agency lies to
> move the child out of the program.  In your opinion and experience, are
> there opportunities out there, perhaps with the agency you mentioned, to
> adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only disability, or where
> the system will be up front about the number, type and degree of special
> needs?  Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, as a blind parent, of a
> blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could offer something special
> to a blind child in need of a family, some time in the future.  Thoughts??
>


From dhammelia at aol.com  Thu Feb 11 18:28:57 2010
From: dhammelia at aol.com (dhammelia at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:28:57 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie><7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <8CC795F354C3A0D-608-6D34@webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com>


China now restricts adoptions by handicapped parents.  Marty and Merry Noel were able to adopt as they were in the system before the change in rules.

"China introduced new rules in 2006 that restrict the number of foreigners adopting Chinese babies. The new rules ban the obese, disabled, unmarried and people who take anti-depressants from adopting."

We did not know Paul and Jesse were autistic from the information we were given.  We had declined a prior blind child as the video showed he was clearly autistic.  The adoption agency denied that child was autistic.  

So it is difficult to know what you are getting on a foreign adoption.  

Dave Hammel






-----Original Message-----
From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:40 am
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China


I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind or VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that the child is blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, especially if the child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or if the agency lies to move the child out of the program. In your opinion and experience, are there opertunities out there, perhaps with the agency you mentioned, to adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only disability, or where the system will be up front about the number, type and degree of special needs? Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, as a blind parent, of a blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could offer something special to a blind child in need of a family, some time in the future. Thoughts?? 
----- Original Message ----- From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com> 
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:13 PM 
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China 
 
>I just wanted to jump in to say Hank is adopted from China & has Albinism. 
> He was almost 6 years old when he came home (July 2006). 
> If anyone has questions about the process I'd be happy to chat with you 
> about it. 
> The special needs program moves much faster than the "healthy" side of 
> things, most people can complete the process in a year or less. 
> There are many boys available, not just girls and a wide range of ages, 
> sometimes as young as a year. Older children often have financial 
> assistance available. There are kids with varying types of VI/Blindness > but 
> since Albinism is what's on my radar, I can say there are virtualy always 
> kids with Albinism available. 
> 
> Here is the video adoption announcement we sent out 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNJaZMiT94o 
> 
> Holly 
> aka Hank's mom 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Deborah Kent Stein < 
> dkent5817 at worldnet.att.net> wrote: 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have been asked to post the following announcement. Please help to 
>> spread the word to anyone who might be interested. 
>> 
>> Debbie 
>> 
>> ________ 
>> 
>> I work for an international adoption agency that primarily places Waiting 
>> Children (special needs). On our last visit to China in November, we met >> a 
>> few children that are visually impaired. I would love to find a home for 
>> these children. Is there any way that I can submit a notice to spread the 
>> word? Or do you have any other suggestions? 
>> 
>> Thanks, 
>> 
>> Lydia Stewart 
>> Madison Adoption Associates 
>> 1009 Woodstream Drive 
>> Wilmington, DE 19810 
>> 302.475.8977 
>> _______________________________________________ 
>> blindkid mailing list 
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org 
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid: 
>> 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hollym12%40gmail.com 
>> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> blindkid mailing list 
> blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org 
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindkid: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com  
_______________________________________________ 
blindkid mailing list 
blindkid at nfbnet.org 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org 
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid: 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dhammelia%40aol.com 



From hollym12 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 18:43:07 2010
From: hollym12 at gmail.com (holly miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:43:07 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <8CC795F354C3A0D-608-6D34@webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
	<7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
	<8CC795F354C3A0D-608-6D34@webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <7d85dc6d1002111043r3eec01bawe7650961ead95007@mail.gmail.com>

Those restrictions are true but exceptions are frequently made, especially
for special needs children and even more so if the child is older.
I have recently seen several exceptions made for the age of the parents &
family size.

I can't swear to it but if I recall correctly, they are willing to consider
disabilities when the parent's disability matches the child's.  So they'd be
likely to consider a blind parent adopting a blind child, deaf parent a deaf
child etc.

Unfortunately there still have been no exceptions that I know of for single
parents (unless their paperwork was in before the changes).

Holly
aka Hank's mom

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 1:28 PM, <dhammelia at aol.com> wrote:

>
> China now restricts adoptions by handicapped parents.  Marty and Merry Noel
> were able to adopt as they were in the system before the change in rules.
>
> "China introduced new rules in 2006 that restrict the number of foreigners
> adopting Chinese babies. The new rules ban the obese, disabled, unmarried
> and people who take anti-depressants from adopting."
>
> We did not know Paul and Jesse were autistic from the information we were
> given.  We had declined a prior blind child as the video showed he was
> clearly autistic.  The adoption agency denied that child was autistic.
>
> So it is difficult to know what you are getting on a foreign adoption.
>
> Dave Hammel
>
>
>
>


From sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org  Thu Feb 11 20:44:29 2010
From: sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org (Susan Harper)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:44:29 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
	<7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <f6a56b5c1002111244m5ee49f17h676236caf23b6607@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
     Sue weighing in on this subject with some prejudice.   There are lots
of children in the US that need homes with parents who have a lot to offer
in the way of personal experience with being blind.  That being said,
usually there are other co-occurring developmental issues which one has to
be savvy about listening and sifting through lots of developmental and
medical information.  There are some words that are used like developmental
delays which can mean a whole host of things as well as the words, "I don't
know."  So what I would request, and it is required by law at the time of
adoption, is a full disclosure of all medical and developmental testing.  If
you have questions talk with someone who can help you interpret the
information, like your pediatrician and a special educator and then you will
get a better idea of needs.  Are people unscrupulous?  At times
unfortunately, yes.  They think they are doing a service to the child to
find a loving home and maybe all that stuff will work out.  Many times it
does all work out, however, you need to be prepared and willing to accept a
child if the worst case scenario comes to pass.
     Make sure you use a reputable licensed Child Placing Agency.  You can
check with your state's DCF office to see if the agency is licensed and if
there have ever been any problems.  If you are working out of country,
again, there has to be a licensed agency in this county and you can check
with licensing in your state to see if there are issues/concerns.
     If you adopt a child in this country with medical/developmental needs,
then their medical costs will be covered or will cover what your medical
insurance doesn't until they are 18 to 21, depending on the state you adopt
from.  And believe me those bills can run up fast and that also includes
adaptive equipment needs.  If you adopt out of country, then you are
expected to provide for all this yourself.  There may be funds for this that
I am not aware of to cover this in an international adoption.  Even the best
of insurances do not cover everything nor does services for the blind.  This
is the practical me speaking, not my heart.  However, practical is necessary
unless you have unlimited income.
    With that in mind, by all means help a child with full knowledge of what
you will need to be prepared for!
Blessings,
Sue

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind or
> VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that the child is
> blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, especially if the
> child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or if the agency lies to
> move the child out of the program.  In your opinion and experience, are
> there opertunities out there, perhaps with the agency you mentioned, to
> adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only disability, or where
> the system will be up front about the number, type and degree of special
> needs?  Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, as a blind parent, of a
> blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could offer something special
> to a blind child in need of a family, some time in the future.  Thoughts??
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <
> blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China
>
>
> I just wanted to jump in to say Hank is adopted from China & has Albinism.
>> He was almost 6 years old when he came home (July 2006).
>> If anyone has questions about the process I'd be happy to chat with you
>> about it.
>> The special needs program moves much faster than the "healthy" side of
>> things, most people can complete the process in a year or less.
>> There are many boys available, not just girls and a wide range of ages,
>> sometimes as young as a year.  Older children often have financial
>> assistance available.  There are kids with varying types of VI/Blindness
>> but
>> since Albinism is what's on my radar, I can say there are virtualy always
>> kids with Albinism available.
>>
>> Here is the video adoption announcement we sent out
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNJaZMiT94o
>>
>> Holly
>> aka Hank's mom
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Deborah Kent Stein <
>> dkent5817 at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I have been asked to post the following announcement.  Please help to
>>> spread the word to anyone who might be interested.
>>>
>>> Debbie
>>>
>>> ________
>>>
>>> I work for an international adoption agency that primarily places Waiting
>>> Children (special needs).  On our last visit to China in November, we met
>>> a
>>> few children that are visually impaired. I would love to find a home for
>>> these children. Is there any way that I can submit a notice to spread the
>>> word?  Or do you have any other suggestions?
>>>
>>>   Thanks,
>>>
>>>   Lydia Stewart
>>>   Madison Adoption Associates
>>>   1009 Woodstream Drive
>>>   Wilmington, DE 19810
>>>   302.475.8977
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hollym12%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
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>


From blindchildren at verizon.net  Thu Feb 11 23:29:18 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:29:18 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <7d85dc6d1002110951g1a9473afu61f21aa3e523ec45@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
	<7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
	<7d85dc6d1002110951g1a9473afu61f21aa3e523ec45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <969913.97810.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

OH, I LOVE HANK!
Carol

At 12:51 PM 2/11/2010, you wrote:
>You pose a good question Heather.
>The short answer is just like a child you give birth to, when you adopt a
>child there are no guarantees as to what issues you might end up dealing
>with.  A person definitely needs to go into this being wiling to take a leap
>of faith and be prepared to deal with whatever may come.  There's no factory
>warranty.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean it to be.  I'm
>thrilled when someone chooses international adoption but I'd never criticize
>someone who doesn't.  We all have to make the choices that work for our own
>family and it's important to understand and be realistic about all the
>factors before making those choices.  Domestic adoption doesn't come with
>any guarantees either and has it's own unique pitfalls but in most cases
>you'd be able to meet the child and draw your own conclusions before you
>commit, that might be an option to explore.
>
>For the longer answer, I can only speak about the China adoption program, I
>am not well versed in adoptions from other countries. China is considered a
>very stable & "safe" country to adopt from a paperwork/process point of
>view.  The rules and fees are clearly stated up front and are applied
>consistently.  While there can be some horror stories dredged up on the
>internet, overall there are very few surprises when it comes to the process
>itself.
>
>The information about the children is controlled by China, not the
>individual adoption agencies.  The files on the children are prepared by the
>orphanage staff and then filtered through the central adoption office in
>China run by the government. Those files are then distributed randomly to
>the various agencies in the US.  As far as the quality of information about
>a child, it's pretty much consistent across all agencies.  Meaning that no
>one agency gets better information than another.  There are occasions where
>an extra nugget of information turns up through someone visiting the
>orphanage or other back channels but that's hit or miss, not something that
>can be counted on.  You absolutely should research any agency carefully, get
>personal referrals, compare fees etc.  Doing an internet search will find
>you lots of blogs & message boards. There are good agencies & bad agencies
>but that has more to do with their business practices than the types of
>children they place.
>
>Generally speaking, China does not offer children up for adoption that are
>known to have a severe mental disability.  The key word though is known.
>Things do slip through the cracks, both for mental and medical issues.
>Medical exams are cursory. The quality of staff (and care) varies greatly
>from one orphanage to another. The person compiling the report may be a
>qualified social worker or may be a layperson checking off boxes.   Some
>organic conditions may not be apparent at a very young age and the files are
>put together several months or even over a year before a potential parent
>reads them.  It may be another year before you bring that child home.  A lot
>can change in that time and you won't necessarily receive updated
>information.  Even if the child does not have an organic brain issue, you
>have to consider the emotional effect being raised in an institutional
>setting can have.  Different kids have different levels of resiliency but I
>dare say no child comes through entirely unscathed.  Virtually all children
>will have delays in comparison to their homegrown peers, simply from lack of
>opportunity.
>
>For us personally, Hank's file said his eyesight was normal.  He had never
>had an actual eye exam, this was based on the observations of whoever filled
>out the forms. I don't think there was any deception involved, I think the
>person filing out the forms honestly didn't realize he was visually
>impaired. Most likely they didn't know anything about Albinism except that
>it makes his skin & hair white.  He is legally blind but he developed very
>good coping skills for himself.  I can understand the casual observer not
>realizing he has vision problems especially since he was a toddler at the
>time his file was created. We knew going in he had Albinism and I had done
>enough research to know his vision had to be impacted in some way.  If we
>had gone by the report alone, we would have had a big surprise.
>
>We did have a little scare when we were in the paperwork process.  A parent
>who had visited the orphanage contacted us to say they had seen Hank (he's
>easy to spot in a crowd!) and he was grouped in the room with the kids that
>did have mental disabilities.  They didn't get to interact with him but they
>wanted us to know they were concerned that it was apparent these kids were
>segregated from the more typical children and Hank was in with that group.
>Obviously we went forward anyway but it did cause concern and there was no
>way to get clarification.  Turns out Hank has no cognitive issues, in fact
>he's exceptionally bright.  Why was he in that group of kids?  I can't know
>for sure but I have a hunch it's more of a statement to the cultural beliefs
>about Albinism more than anything about Hank's abilities.
>
>He does have emotional scars from his upbringing. He was almost 6 when we
>adopted him and he came from a place that no child should be subjected to
>for even a day. That is a bigger impact on our day to day life than him
>being blind.  Even though I did my homework, even though I spent lots of
>time talking to the been there, done that crowd, his emotional issues were a
>lot harder to handle than I ever imagined.  Is he a great kid?  Yes!  Do I
>love him with every fiber of my being? Absolutely!  I don't regret adopting
>him for a second but I've got to say, I wouldn't have thought I was strong
>enough to handle this before I actually had to handle it.  Then I think
>about how strong he had to be just to survive to the point he could be
>adopted and it stops me in my tracks.  He is an incredible child.  I know
>every mother thinks that but there's something about this kid.  People are
>drawn to him.  Even at NFB functions, I can introduce myself and get that
>kind of blank "who is this lady?" smile.  Then I say "I'm Hank's mom..." and
>I get "OH!!!!  I love Hank!!!!"
>
>Ok, I think I've rambled on enough!
>I hope all of this is taken in the spirit intended and I'm happy to clarify
>anything the best I can.
>
>Holly
>aka Hank's mom
>
>
>On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind or
> > VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that 
> the child is
> > blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, 
> especially if the
> > child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or if the 
> agency lies to
> > move the child out of the program.  In your opinion and experience, are
> > there opportunities out there, perhaps with the agency you mentioned, to
> > adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only disability, or where
> > the system will be up front about the number, type and degree of special
> > needs?  Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, as a blind parent, of a
> > blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could offer something special
> > to a blind child in need of a family, some time in the future.  Thoughts??
> >
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
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From hollym12 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 02:35:05 2010
From: hollym12 at gmail.com (holly miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:35:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <969913.97810.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie>
	<7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
	<7d85dc6d1002110951g1a9473afu61f21aa3e523ec45@mail.gmail.com>
	<969913.97810.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7d85dc6d1002111835w21b80cb8m2a1f0f235f296545@mail.gmail.com>

Funny lady

Holly
aka Hank's mom

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Carol Castellano <blindchildren at verizon.net
> wrote:

> OH, I LOVE HANK!
> Carol
>
>


From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Feb 12 03:06:17 2010
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:06:17 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
In-Reply-To: <f6a56b5c1002111244m5ee49f17h676236caf23b6607@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie><7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com><5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
	<f6a56b5c1002111244m5ee49f17h676236caf23b6607@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS6A6D3B4EED3A4E79C6E65EB4D0@phx.gbl>


    Many times the state is unwilling to put labels on children because 
those labels may count against a child when prospective parents are looking 
at them.  Yes, sometimes our hearts may be broken because a child is not 
quite what we wanted, as far as developmental issues go, but when you're 
adopting you must remember that you could just as easily have birthed a 
child with the same problems.  It is kind of nice to be able to pick and 
choose what you want because they're already here, but there will never be 
one who is exactly who you wanted.  Everybody has something about them that 
everyone else could find annoying.  You may have to weigh and consider what 
other disablilities you can handle.  (Didn't work in our case.)  But hey! 
Life isn't fair.  Just let your heart be your guide.  You can't love them 
all but there will be a special one or two just for you if you look.
Be diligent in studying and ask for video--that gives you a better picture 
than paperwork.  We weren't able to see the twins on video.  You are a 
better chance than what they may have right now.
Barbara

A Congress that will always do its work in the dark must have something to 
hide.  The people have spoken, yet they do not listen.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Susan Harper" <sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:44 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China

> Hi,
>     Sue weighing in on this subject with some prejudice.   There are lots
> of children in the US that need homes with parents who have a lot to offer
> in the way of personal experience with being blind.  That being said,
> usually there are other co-occurring developmental issues which one has to
> be savvy about listening and sifting through lots of developmental and
> medical information.  There are some words that are used like 
> developmental
> delays which can mean a whole host of things as well as the words, "I 
> don't
> know."  So what I would request, and it is required by law at the time of
> adoption, is a full disclosure of all medical and developmental testing. 
> If
> you have questions talk with someone who can help you interpret the
> information, like your pediatrician and a special educator and then you 
> will
> get a better idea of needs.  Are people unscrupulous?  At times
> unfortunately, yes.  They think they are doing a service to the child to
> find a loving home and maybe all that stuff will work out.  Many times it
> does all work out, however, you need to be prepared and willing to accept 
> a
> child if the worst case scenario comes to pass.
>     Make sure you use a reputable licensed Child Placing Agency.  You can
> check with your state's DCF office to see if the agency is licensed and if
> there have ever been any problems.  If you are working out of country,
> again, there has to be a licensed agency in this county and you can check
> with licensing in your state to see if there are issues/concerns.
>     If you adopt a child in this country with medical/developmental needs,
> then their medical costs will be covered or will cover what your medical
> insurance doesn't until they are 18 to 21, depending on the state you 
> adopt
> from.  And believe me those bills can run up fast and that also includes
> adaptive equipment needs.  If you adopt out of country, then you are
> expected to provide for all this yourself.  There may be funds for this 
> that
> I am not aware of to cover this in an international adoption.  Even the 
> best
> of insurances do not cover everything nor does services for the blind. 
> This
> is the practical me speaking, not my heart.  However, practical is 
> necessary
> unless you have unlimited income.
>    With that in mind, by all means help a child with full knowledge of 
> what
> you will need to be prepared for!
> Blessings,
> Sue
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind 
>> or
>> VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that the child 
>> is
>> blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, especially if 
>> the
>> child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or if the agency lies 
>> to
>> move the child out of the program.  In your opinion and experience, are
>> there opertunities out there, perhaps with the agency you mentioned, to
>> adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only disability, or 
>> where
>> the system will be up front about the number, type and degree of special
>> needs?  Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, as a blind parent, of 
>> a
>> blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could offer something 
>> special
>> to a blind child in need of a family, some time in the future. 
>> Thoughts??
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China
>>
>>
>> I just wanted to jump in to say Hank is adopted from China & has 
>> Albinism.
>>> He was almost 6 years old when he came home (July 2006).
>>> If anyone has questions about the process I'd be happy to chat with you
>>> about it.
>>> The special needs program moves much faster than the "healthy" side of
>>> things, most people can complete the process in a year or less.
>>> There are many boys available, not just girls and a wide range of ages,
>>> sometimes as young as a year.  Older children often have financial
>>> assistance available.  There are kids with varying types of VI/Blindness
>>> but
>>> since Albinism is what's on my radar, I can say there are virtualy 
>>> always
>>> kids with Albinism available.
>>>
>>> Here is the video adoption announcement we sent out
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNJaZMiT94o
>>>
>>> Holly
>>> aka Hank's mom
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Deborah Kent Stein <
>>> dkent5817 at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have been asked to post the following announcement.  Please help to
>>>> spread the word to anyone who might be interested.
>>>>
>>>> Debbie
>>>>
>>>> ________
>>>>
>>>> I work for an international adoption agency that primarily places 
>>>> Waiting
>>>> Children (special needs).  On our last visit to China in November, we 
>>>> met
>>>> a
>>>> few children that are visually impaired. I would love to find a home 
>>>> for
>>>> these children. Is there any way that I can submit a notice to spread 
>>>> the
>>>> word?  Or do you have any other suggestions?
>>>>
>>>>   Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>   Lydia Stewart
>>>>   Madison Adoption Associates
>>>>   1009 Woodstream Drive
>>>>   Wilmington, DE 19810
>>>>   302.475.8977
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hollym12%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From invite+iw-1mp-i at facebookmail.com  Fri Feb 12 04:03:35 2010
From: invite+iw-1mp-i at facebookmail.com (Chikodinaka Oguledo)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:03:35 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Take a look at my photos on Facebook
Message-ID: <af6a72c4830c6c8f95379f63ad2ebe1d@www.facebook.com>

Hi (for,

I set up a Facebook Profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile.

Thanks,
Chikodinaka

To join Facebook, please follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1151012561&k=Z514Y6U5S6TFYDAEU143V5PQUPJGXY5E&r



Already have an account? Add this email address to your account http://www.facebook.com/n/?merge_accounts.php&e=blindkid at nfbnet.org&c=1d8be49768657ffadf5045c8b6c81d59.blindkid at nfbnet.org was invited to join Facebook by Chikodinaka Oguledo. If you do not wish to receive this type of email from Facebook in the future, please click on the link below to unsubscribe.
http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=6ac605&u=1665542207&mid=1ded045G6346283fG0G8
Facebook's offices are located at 1601 S. California Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304.



From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 11 19:40:31 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:40:31 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie><7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com><5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
	<8CC795F354C3A0D-608-6D34@webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FD87DD502AAB4F2AB6FE79680E56F046@7PYZPJ1>

Wow, that is disgusting.  I mean, should two prefoundly retarded people be 
given a baby to raise?  Of course not, but in some cases, blind parents are 
more qualified than sighted parents to raise a blind child, although, one 
blind and one sighted parent is a really great, mixed perspective 
relationship.  I guess I now understand why my Aunt Jean had to literally 
have Mother Teresa bring her a child from India, because the Indian 
government wouldn't help her.  Mother Teresa, no lie.  Now, just out of 
curiosity, would they allow an addoption if the couple consists of one blind 
and one sighted parent?  And, obeasity, you've got to be kidding me. 
Children are starving in their country, baby girls are left to die, and they 
would rather that this happens than they have parents who are intelligent, 
loving, wealthy, but overweight?  It is mind boggling.  I really wonder how 
blind parents are treated in China, although I have a feeling they are not 
allowed to exist, either through ugenics or forced adoption of children of 
disabled parents.  I don't want to think about it.  I'm going to end this 
before I get my self even more worked up.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dhammelia at aol.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China


>
> China now restricts adoptions by handicapped parents.  Marty and Merry 
> Noel were able to adopt as they were in the system before the change in 
> rules.
>
> "China introduced new rules in 2006 that restrict the number of foreigners 
> adopting Chinese babies. The new rules ban the obese, disabled, unmarried 
> and people who take anti-depressants from adopting."
>
> We did not know Paul and Jesse were autistic from the information we were 
> given.  We had declined a prior blind child as the video showed he was 
> clearly autistic.  The adoption agency denied that child was autistic.
>
> So it is difficult to know what you are getting on a foreign adoption.
>
> Dave Hammel
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:40 am
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China
>
>
> I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind 
> or VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that the 
> child is blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, 
> especially if the child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or 
> if the agency lies to move the child out of the program. In your opinion 
> and experience, are there opertunities out there, perhaps with the agency 
> you mentioned, to adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only 
> disability, or where the system will be up front about the number, type 
> and degree of special needs? Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, 
> as a blind parent, of a blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could 
> offer something special to a blind child in need of a family, some time in 
> the future. Thoughts??
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China
>
>>I just wanted to jump in to say Hank is adopted from China & has Albinism.
>> He was almost 6 years old when he came home (July 2006).
>> If anyone has questions about the process I'd be happy to chat with you
>> about it.
>> The special needs program moves much faster than the "healthy" side of
>> things, most people can complete the process in a year or less.
>> There are many boys available, not just girls and a wide range of ages,
>> sometimes as young as a year. Older children often have financial
>> assistance available. There are kids with varying types of VI/Blindness > 
>> but
>> since Albinism is what's on my radar, I can say there are virtualy always
>> kids with Albinism available.
>>
>> Here is the video adoption announcement we sent out
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNJaZMiT94o
>>
>> Holly
>> aka Hank's mom
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Deborah Kent Stein <
>> dkent5817 at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been asked to post the following announcement. Please help to
>>> spread the word to anyone who might be interested.
>>>
>>> Debbie
>>>
>>> ________
>>>
>>> I work for an international adoption agency that primarily places 
>>> Waiting
>>> Children (special needs). On our last visit to China in November, we met 
>>>  >> a
>>> few children that are visually impaired. I would love to find a home for
>>> these children. Is there any way that I can submit a notice to spread 
>>> the
>>> word? Or do you have any other suggestions?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Lydia Stewart
>>> Madison Adoption Associates
>>> 1009 Woodstream Drive
>>> Wilmington, DE 19810
>>> 302.475.8977
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hollym12%40gmail.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dhammelia%40aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 12 07:50:55 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:50:55 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie><7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com><5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1>
	<7d85dc6d1002110951g1a9473afu61f21aa3e523ec45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0FAF5E6E08F04D79826C5E4B15BD6967@7PYZPJ1>

I know you don't mean to sound harsh.  The reason I am so concerned about 
multiple disabilities is two fold.  For one thing a deaf blind child I could 
not do, period.  I know their intelligence can range from prefoundly 
retarded to amazingly bright, just like any other person, but I do not think 
that I could give all potential children, biological, foster or adopted 
enough attention if I had to go over and make physical contact to read signs 
and sign back for every single need and communication the deaf blind child 
would have.  Additionally, a child with a significant mental disability 
would pose a problem, because I am an attachment parent who is going to home 
school and the state does not mind this, as long as your child makes 
appropriate grades during state evaluations, but I know that a child with 
mild mental retardation, note not a learning disability, that I could handel 
as a special education major, but cognative delays, would be too time 
intensive for me to effectively home school any other children, and even if 
the mental delay was documented and properly diagnosed, I am sure the state 
would use such to push the issue of a blind parent not being compitant to 
home school her own children.  Some people, not you, but some people, would 
call me, and have called me selfish, narrow minded, etc, but I am realistic, 
and knowing what one can and cannot handel is a very responsible and wise 
thing.  For instance, I know I am a damn good musician, but I also know that 
auditioning at the Met. would only be an embarrassment and a disappointment. 
I am good, but I am not that good.  I know that I am a great dog handler and 
trainer and that if push came to shuv I could owner train a guide dog for my 
self, but I also know that, at present, I don't have the time or the energy. 
My thinking about a severly multiply handicapped child are along those lines 
of realism and fairness to myself, my family and any potentially adopted 
children.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China


> You pose a good question Heather.
> The short answer is just like a child you give birth to, when you adopt a
> child there are no guarantees as to what issues you might end up dealing
> with.  A person definitely needs to go into this being wiling to take a 
> leap
> of faith and be prepared to deal with whatever may come.  There's no 
> factory
> warranty.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean it to be.  I'm
> thrilled when someone chooses international adoption but I'd never 
> criticize
> someone who doesn't.  We all have to make the choices that work for our 
> own
> family and it's important to understand and be realistic about all the
> factors before making those choices.  Domestic adoption doesn't come with
> any guarantees either and has it's own unique pitfalls but in most cases
> you'd be able to meet the child and draw your own conclusions before you
> commit, that might be an option to explore.
>
> For the longer answer, I can only speak about the China adoption program, 
> I
> am not well versed in adoptions from other countries. China is considered 
> a
> very stable & "safe" country to adopt from a paperwork/process point of
> view.  The rules and fees are clearly stated up front and are applied
> consistently.  While there can be some horror stories dredged up on the
> internet, overall there are very few surprises when it comes to the 
> process
> itself.
>
> The information about the children is controlled by China, not the
> individual adoption agencies.  The files on the children are prepared by 
> the
> orphanage staff and then filtered through the central adoption office in
> China run by the government. Those files are then distributed randomly to
> the various agencies in the US.  As far as the quality of information 
> about
> a child, it's pretty much consistent across all agencies.  Meaning that no
> one agency gets better information than another.  There are occasions 
> where
> an extra nugget of information turns up through someone visiting the
> orphanage or other back channels but that's hit or miss, not something 
> that
> can be counted on.  You absolutely should research any agency carefully, 
> get
> personal referrals, compare fees etc.  Doing an internet search will find
> you lots of blogs & message boards. There are good agencies & bad agencies
> but that has more to do with their business practices than the types of
> children they place.
>
> Generally speaking, China does not offer children up for adoption that are
> known to have a severe mental disability.  The key word though is known.
> Things do slip through the cracks, both for mental and medical issues.
> Medical exams are cursory. The quality of staff (and care) varies greatly
> from one orphanage to another. The person compiling the report may be a
> qualified social worker or may be a layperson checking off boxes.   Some
> organic conditions may not be apparent at a very young age and the files 
> are
> put together several months or even over a year before a potential parent
> reads them.  It may be another year before you bring that child home.  A 
> lot
> can change in that time and you won't necessarily receive updated
> information.  Even if the child does not have an organic brain issue, you
> have to consider the emotional effect being raised in an institutional
> setting can have.  Different kids have different levels of resiliency but 
> I
> dare say no child comes through entirely unscathed.  Virtually all 
> children
> will have delays in comparison to their homegrown peers, simply from lack 
> of
> opportunity.
>
> For us personally, Hank's file said his eyesight was normal.  He had never
> had an actual eye exam, this was based on the observations of whoever 
> filled
> out the forms. I don't think there was any deception involved, I think the
> person filing out the forms honestly didn't realize he was visually
> impaired. Most likely they didn't know anything about Albinism except that
> it makes his skin & hair white.  He is legally blind but he developed very
> good coping skills for himself.  I can understand the casual observer not
> realizing he has vision problems especially since he was a toddler at the
> time his file was created. We knew going in he had Albinism and I had done
> enough research to know his vision had to be impacted in some way.  If we
> had gone by the report alone, we would have had a big surprise.
>
> We did have a little scare when we were in the paperwork process.  A 
> parent
> who had visited the orphanage contacted us to say they had seen Hank (he's
> easy to spot in a crowd!) and he was grouped in the room with the kids 
> that
> did have mental disabilities.  They didn't get to interact with him but 
> they
> wanted us to know they were concerned that it was apparent these kids were
> segregated from the more typical children and Hank was in with that group.
> Obviously we went forward anyway but it did cause concern and there was no
> way to get clarification.  Turns out Hank has no cognitive issues, in fact
> he's exceptionally bright.  Why was he in that group of kids?  I can't 
> know
> for sure but I have a hunch it's more of a statement to the cultural 
> beliefs
> about Albinism more than anything about Hank's abilities.
>
> He does have emotional scars from his upbringing. He was almost 6 when we
> adopted him and he came from a place that no child should be subjected to
> for even a day. That is a bigger impact on our day to day life than him
> being blind.  Even though I did my homework, even though I spent lots of
> time talking to the been there, done that crowd, his emotional issues were 
> a
> lot harder to handle than I ever imagined.  Is he a great kid?  Yes!  Do I
> love him with every fiber of my being? Absolutely!  I don't regret 
> adopting
> him for a second but I've got to say, I wouldn't have thought I was strong
> enough to handle this before I actually had to handle it.  Then I think
> about how strong he had to be just to survive to the point he could be
> adopted and it stops me in my tracks.  He is an incredible child.  I know
> every mother thinks that but there's something about this kid.  People are
> drawn to him.  Even at NFB functions, I can introduce myself and get that
> kind of blank "who is this lady?" smile.  Then I say "I'm Hank's mom..." 
> and
> I get "OH!!!!  I love Hank!!!!"
>
> Ok, I think I've rambled on enough!
> I hope all of this is taken in the spirit intended and I'm happy to 
> clarify
> anything the best I can.
>
> Holly
> aka Hank's mom
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> I have always been interested in how one might go about adopting a blind 
>> or
>> VI child from another country, but doing so and being sure that the child 
>> is
>> blind only, without mental retardation could be difficult, especially if 
>> the
>> child is quite young, has been abused or neglected, or if the agency lies 
>> to
>> move the child out of the program.  In your opinion and experience, are
>> there opportunities out there, perhaps with the agency you mentioned, to
>> adopt blind children, for whom blindness is their only disability, or 
>> where
>> the system will be up front about the number, type and degree of special
>> needs?  Adopting is a wonderful thing to do, and I, as a blind parent, of 
>> a
>> blind mother and sighted father, feel that I could offer something 
>> special
>> to a blind child in need of a family, some time in the future. 
>> Thoughts??
>>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 12 07:52:32 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:52:32 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Adoption from China
References: <007c01caa108$0c4db530$640aa8c0@Debbie><7d85dc6d1002091913m1de19f93h6ae79d33d8c67ec8@mail.gmail.com><5858F5036E084B968795CE9DDA475AE5@7PYZPJ1><8CC795F354C3A0D-608-6D34@webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com>
	<7d85dc6d1002111043r3eec01bawe7650961ead95007@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C6D350BF1DD437681B7E38E9BCC013D@7PYZPJ1>

Ah, that is good to hear, especially as I have a sighted fiance, and at 
twenty three, I have a lot of time to think about having more biological 
children, adopting from overseas or fostering children from the US.  Thanks 
for the information and the patience.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Adoption from China


> Those restrictions are true but exceptions are frequently made, especially
> for special needs children and even more so if the child is older.
> I have recently seen several exceptions made for the age of the parents &
> family size.
>
> I can't swear to it but if I recall correctly, they are willing to 
> consider
> disabilities when the parent's disability matches the child's.  So they'd 
> be
> likely to consider a blind parent adopting a blind child, deaf parent a 
> deaf
> child etc.
>
> Unfortunately there still have been no exceptions that I know of for 
> single
> parents (unless their paperwork was in before the changes).
>
> Holly
> aka Hank's mom
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 1:28 PM, <dhammelia at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> China now restricts adoptions by handicapped parents.  Marty and Merry 
>> Noel
>> were able to adopt as they were in the system before the change in rules.
>>
>> "China introduced new rules in 2006 that restrict the number of 
>> foreigners
>> adopting Chinese babies. The new rules ban the obese, disabled, unmarried
>> and people who take anti-depressants from adopting."
>>
>> We did not know Paul and Jesse were autistic from the information we were
>> given.  We had declined a prior blind child as the video showed he was
>> clearly autistic.  The adoption agency denied that child was autistic.
>>
>> So it is difficult to know what you are getting on a foreign adoption.
>>
>> Dave Hammel
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Fri Feb 12 14:04:05 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:04:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Transition
In-Reply-To: <C16005E890524CD6A5C94A656AFDA67B@LivingRoom>
References: <C16005E890524CD6A5C94A656AFDA67B@LivingRoom>
Message-ID: <43198.10511.qm@smtp103.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I am pretty sure the policies of the VR folks vary by state.  Do you 
have a separate blindness agency in your state?  Or a general 
one?  Maybe you can look on their website and see what they say about 
transition services and then maybe give them a call.  Has Aubrie been 
assigned a VR counselor yet?

In our case, it was not necessary for VR to be at the getting ready 
for HS meeting.  They were helpful later in providing technology for 
college, but that was not until senior year.  But I do believe this 
varies from state to state.  There is probably a policy guideline 
somewhere that you could read.

Carol

At 09:48 AM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
>Hello Listers,
>In attending NOPBC meetings about transition in the past, presenters 
>have said that VR should be involved in transition meetings when 
>children turn 14 which is generally when they begin high school. 
>Aubrie turns 14 in June and we are having her IEP this March to 
>begin the process of getting her setup for high school next year. 
>would it be important for VR to be there for this meeting before she 
>turns 14 or would having them come at the end of her Freshman year 
>when she is about to turn 15 be adequate. they actually said that 
>they do not become until the child is 16; in which case, I am going 
>to have to make a good case for them to come next year, let alone 
>getting them to come as early as this year. For any of you who have 
>experience working with stubberon folks like this, could you please 
>shed some light on the best and most effective approach to get 
>support from VR. thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>
>Bonnie
>Bonnie Lucas
>770-992-0484
>Cell: 678-480-0864
>lucas.bonnie at gmail.com
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From gwunder at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 15 06:38:11 2010
From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:38:11 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Braille Book Flea Market
Message-ID: <auto-000139438761@mailfront2.g2host.com>

----- Original Message ----- From: "Peggy Chong" <peggychong at earthlink.net>
To: "Peggy Chong" <PeggyChong at earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:16 AM
Subject: Braille Book Flea Market


>Hello to all:
>
>It is that time again.
>
>Donate your gently used but no longer needed braille books to the 2010
>Braille Book Flea Market sponsored by the National Organization of Parents
>of Blind Children and the National Association to Promote the Use of
>Braille.  Books should be in good condition.  Cookbooks, twin-vision books
>and books suitable for children are greatly needed.  Do not forget those
>twin-vision books.  We always run short.
>
>
>
>In a few weeks, we will have a local address in Texas where you can send the
>Braille Books you wish to donate. Begin your search through the boxes in
>your basement and spare room and get them ready for shipping.  If you have
>any questions, contact me, Peggy Chong at 515-277-1288 or e-mail at
>peggychong at earthlink.net.  Look for a Braille Book Flea Market update in the
>Braille Monitor very soon.  I will also send to this list the address for
>shipping.
>
>
>
>Peggy Chong




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Mon Feb 15 13:08:54 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:08:54 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
Message-ID: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>

Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use some suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, develop games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for the book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being preached and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character, prefferably a blind child character.  They can be the main character or just a secondary character.  The important thing is that the depiction be accurate, not condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book have a plot and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched for three hours last night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find any descent books.  They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and often inaccurate depictions of blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind people are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is braille, the end." format.  I want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of story, introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with blindness, but rather some other issue important to or of interest to kids, but with a blind protagonist, or even antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always little angels than are sighted kids.  I hope someone knows what I mean.  Not having found a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples of what I would like.  Any reccomendations would be appreciated.  Thanks much.

From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 13:57:31 2010
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 05:57:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <719446.96168.qm@web65415.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I have a whole list of books in which there are characters who are blind! I used it to give the librarians for when they are ordering books. I also left it off at the public library. Now, the hard part, where did I "file" it? :-) I will look today and let you know.
Colleen
TVI in TX

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:


From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness, or featuring blind characters
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 7:08 AM


Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use some suggestions.? We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, develop games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for the book and activities.? I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being preached and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character, prefferably a blind child character.? They can be the main character or just a secondary character.? The important thing is that the depiction be accurate, not condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book have a plot and a story, not just a series of facts.? I searched for three hours last night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find any descent books.? They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and
 often inaccurate depictions of blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind people are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is braille, the end." format.? I want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of story, introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with blindness, but rather some other issue important to or of interest to kids, but with a blind protagonist, or even antagonist.? Blind kids are no more always little angels than are sighted kids.? I hope someone knows what I mean.? Not having found a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples of what I would like.? Any reccomendations would be appreciated.? Thanks much.
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
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From Smoki2 at aol.com  Mon Feb 15 14:03:05 2010
From: Smoki2 at aol.com (Smoki2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:03:05 EST
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind char...
Message-ID: <3b78.25ad2e9f.38aaae19@aol.com>

I am the author of the picture book, Keep Your Ear on the  Ball.  It sounds 
like the type of book you're looking for, but it's the  preschool thing 
that may be an issue, more than the "preachy" thing.  I  have used the book in 
a number of school visits which included  kindergarten, but haven't read the 
book to pre-K kids.  Check it out.   Possibly, if it's used in a small 
group with some discussion, it may prove to be  what you need.  Also, the 
publisher provides an entire Teachers Take Note  section to accompany the book.  
It includes references, games, classroom  activities, and lots of other fun 
stuff. 
_Keep Your  Ear on the Ball - Tilbury House_ 
(http://tilburyhouse.com/childrens/keep-your-ear-on-the-ball.htm)  
 
Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Genevieve Petrillo
 
Genevieve Petrillo
Children's Author /  Poet
smoki2 at aol.com
genevievepetrillo.webs.com

 
 
 
In a message dated 2/15/2010 8:44:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
craney07 at rochester.rr.com writes:
 
Ok, so I  am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use 
some  suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, develop  
games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of  
gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for the  
book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about  
blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being preached  
and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character, 
prefferably a  blind child character.  They can be the main character or just a  
secondary character.  The important thing is that the depiction be  accurate, not 
condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book  have a 
plot and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched for  three hours last 
night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of  us could find 
any descent books.  They all had seriously sstigmatizing,  and often 
inaccurate depictions of
blindness, in a "This is what  blindness is, this is what blind people are 
like, this is a guide dog, this is  a cane and this is braille, the end." 
format.  I want more of a "Blah  blah blah, beginning of story, introduce 
blind character, kid who just happens  to be blind, blabity blabity blabity 
development of all characters and a plot  line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up story 
that has nothing to do with blindness,  but rather some other issue 
important to or of interest to kids, but with a  blind protagonist, or even 
antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always  little angels than are sighted kids.  I 
hope someone knows what I  mean.  Not having found a decent book like this 
I can't even offer up  examples of what I would like.  Any reccomendations 
would be  appreciated.  Thanks  much.
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing  list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for  
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smoki2%40aol.com




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Mon Feb 15 14:53:34 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:53:34 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
 or  featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <995351.83566.qm@smtp101.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Both of the following books are meant for children older than 
preschool, but they might work for your purposes--The View from Under 
the Pew and Keep Your Ear on the Ball.
Carol

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net

www.nfb.org/nopbcAt 08:08 AM 2/15/2010, you wrote:
>Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could 
>use some suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged 
>kids, develop games, art projects, other similar activities that 
>appeal to as many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, 
>and a teachers' guide for the book and activities.  I was hoping to 
>find a book that didn't teach about blindness, as even very small 
>children can tell when they are being preached and lectured at, but 
>rather one that features a blind character, prefferably a blind 
>child character.  They can be the main character or just a secondary 
>character.  The important thing is that the depiction be accurate, 
>not condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book 
>have a plot and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched for 
>three hours last night on the internet with my fiance's help, and 
>neither of us could find any descent books.  They all had seriously 
>sstigmatizing, and often inaccurate depictions of
>  blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind 
> people are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is 
> braille, the end." format.  I want more of a "Blah blah blah, 
> beginning of story, introduce blind character, kid who just happens 
> to be blind, blabity blabity blabity development of all characters 
> and a plot line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing 
> to do with blindness, but rather some other issue important to or 
> of interest to kids, but with a blind protagonist, or even 
> antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always little angels than are 
> sighted kids.  I hope someone knows what I mean.  Not having found 
> a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples of what I 
> would like.  Any reccomendations would be appreciated.  Thanks much.
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From seedlink3 at ameritech.net  Mon Feb 15 14:57:56 2010
From: seedlink3 at ameritech.net (Dawn Swarthout)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:57:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <47546.70051.qm@web180213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

How about Knots on a Counting Rope by Bill Martin?? Seedlings has the book in contracted and uncontracted Print & Braille.
?
Dawn Swarthout
Community Outreach
Seedlings Braille Books for Children
www.seedlings.org
800-777-8552 x-307
734-427-8552 x307
seedlink3 at ameritech.net




________________________________
From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 8:08:54 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness, or featuring blind characters

Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use some suggestions.? We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, develop games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for the book and activities.? I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being preached and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character, prefferably a blind child character.? They can be the main character or just a secondary character.? The important thing is that the depiction be accurate, not condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book have a plot and a story, not just a series of facts.? I searched for three hours last night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find any descent books.? They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and
 often inaccurate depictions of blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind people are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is braille, the end." format.? I want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of story, introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with blindness, but rather some other issue important to or of interest to kids, but with a blind protagonist, or even antagonist.? Blind kids are no more always little angels than are sighted kids.? I hope someone knows what I mean.? Not having found a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples of what I would like.? Any reccomendations would be appreciated.? Thanks much.
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seedlink3%40ameritech.net


From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Mon Feb 15 15:09:20 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:09:20 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind char...
References: <3b78.25ad2e9f.38aaae19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9C62807543641D3BDDFEB224E774B70@7PYZPJ1>

Awsum.  I will go check it out.  I'll have to be sure not to look at the 
teacher's guide though, as part of the assignment is to use a preexisting 
book, but all origonal games and activities.  If I read about them, I might 
inadvertently use something similar.  If I happen to pick similar ideas, 
never having seen the official teacher's guide, that is alright.  I will of 
course have a look at that piece, after I have the bulk of my teacher's 
guide finished.  Thanks so much.  Even if the age range is just too high for 
this assignment.  It is a great resource to have, as a homeschooling parent 
and as a student who wishes to teach kindergardin.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Smoki2 at aol.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring 
blind char...


>I am the author of the picture book, Keep Your Ear on the  Ball.  It sounds
> like the type of book you're looking for, but it's the  preschool thing
> that may be an issue, more than the "preachy" thing.  I  have used the 
> book in
> a number of school visits which included  kindergarten, but haven't read 
> the
> book to pre-K kids.  Check it out.   Possibly, if it's used in a small
> group with some discussion, it may prove to be  what you need.  Also, the
> publisher provides an entire Teachers Take Note  section to accompany the 
> book.
> It includes references, games, classroom  activities, and lots of other 
> fun
> stuff.
> _Keep Your  Ear on the Ball - Tilbury House_
> (http://tilburyhouse.com/childrens/keep-your-ear-on-the-ball.htm)
>
> Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
> Genevieve Petrillo
>
> Genevieve Petrillo
> Children's Author /  Poet
> smoki2 at aol.com
> genevievepetrillo.webs.com
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/15/2010 8:44:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> craney07 at rochester.rr.com writes:
>
> Ok, so I  am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use
> some  suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, 
> develop
> games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of
> gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for 
> the
> book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about
> blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being 
> preached
> and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character,
> prefferably a  blind child character.  They can be the main character or 
> just a
> secondary character.  The important thing is that the depiction be 
> accurate, not
> condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book  have a
> plot and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched for  three hours 
> last
> night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of  us could find
> any descent books.  They all had seriously sstigmatizing,  and often
> inaccurate depictions of
> blindness, in a "This is what  blindness is, this is what blind people are
> like, this is a guide dog, this is  a cane and this is braille, the end."
> format.  I want more of a "Blah  blah blah, beginning of story, introduce
> blind character, kid who just happens  to be blind, blabity blabity 
> blabity
> development of all characters and a plot  line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up 
> story
> that has nothing to do with blindness,  but rather some other issue
> important to or of interest to kids, but with a  blind protagonist, or 
> even
> antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always  little angels than are sighted 
> kids.  I
> hope someone knows what I  mean.  Not having found a decent book like this
> I can't even offer up  examples of what I would like.  Any reccomendations
> would be  appreciated.  Thanks  much.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing  list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smoki2%40aol.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From TEOlivero at nfb.org  Mon Feb 15 15:22:02 2010
From: TEOlivero at nfb.org (Olivero, Treva)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:22:02 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B0209F8B5@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>

Heather, 
I think some of the Arthur books have a blind secondary character in
them. 

Treva

Treva E. Olivero
 
Coordinator, Mentoring and Outreach Projects 
 
Jernigan Institute 
 
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 
 
200 East Wells Street 
 
at Jernigan Place
 
Baltimore, MD 21230
 
Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2295
 
Fax: (410) 659-5129
 
Email: teolivero at nfb.org
 
Visit: 
www.nfb.org/mentoring
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 8:09 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring
blind characters

Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use
some suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids,
develop games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as
many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers'
guide for the book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that
didn't teach about blindness, as even very small children can tell when
they are being preached and lectured at, but rather one that features a
blind character, prefferably a blind child character.  They can be the
main character or just a secondary character.  The important thing is
that the depiction be accurate, not condescending, not "In your face
educational" and that the book have a plot and a story, not just a
series of facts.  I searched for three hours last night on the internet
with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find any descent books.
They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and often inaccurate depictions of
blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind people
are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is braille, the
end." format.  I want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of story,
introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity
blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot line, yadda
yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with blindness, but
rather some other issue important to or of interest to kids, but with a
blind protagonist, or even antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always
little angels than are sighted kids.  I hope someone knows what I mean.
Not having found a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples
of what I would like.  Any reccomendations would be appreciated.  Thanks
much.
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/teolivero%40nf
b.org



From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Mon Feb 15 15:54:04 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:54:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
	<7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B0209F8B5@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>
Message-ID: <F1839F9CE461461D91234FB318EA8635@7PYZPJ1>

Oh yeah.  I saw an epesode where, fransine, has a blind friend and they have 
a sleep over.  That prompted me to get the print book, which I am now using 
to build up a collection of that series, since Jeremy loves the show at 
seven A.M.  I think the simple, strait forward animation is easy for him to 
see, the dialogue is realistic and not condescending, but not too fast 
paced, and the background noise is not prohibitive of good language 
development, especially for a VI child.  But, alas, these are too old.  I 
reread it last week and it is just not the correct level for preschoolers. 
I think kindergarden and first grade would be fine, but toddlers?  Not 
quite.  Great suggestion though, and am totally bummed, as I really do love 
this particular book.  Basically, Fransine gets all freaked out that she 
will offend or bother her blind friend and she goes a little nuts trying to 
be overly helpful, wigging out about a chair out of place and being more 
interested in her friend's brailled playing cards and described movies and 
such, than in her actual friend.  It resolves nicely and it is very raw and 
real and genuine.  Take care.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olivero, Treva" <TEOlivero at nfb.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring 
blind characters


> Heather,
> I think some of the Arthur books have a blind secondary character in
> them.
>
> Treva
>
> Treva E. Olivero
>
> Coordinator, Mentoring and Outreach Projects
>
> Jernigan Institute
>
> NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
>
> 200 East Wells Street
>
> at Jernigan Place
>
> Baltimore, MD 21230
>
> Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2295
>
> Fax: (410) 659-5129
>
> Email: teolivero at nfb.org
>
> Visit:
> www.nfb.org/mentoring
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 8:09 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring
> blind characters
>
> Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use
> some suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids,
> develop games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as
> many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers'
> guide for the book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that
> didn't teach about blindness, as even very small children can tell when
> they are being preached and lectured at, but rather one that features a
> blind character, prefferably a blind child character.  They can be the
> main character or just a secondary character.  The important thing is
> that the depiction be accurate, not condescending, not "In your face
> educational" and that the book have a plot and a story, not just a
> series of facts.  I searched for three hours last night on the internet
> with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find any descent books.
> They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and often inaccurate depictions of
> blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind people
> are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is braille, the
> end." format.  I want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of story,
> introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity
> blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot line, yadda
> yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with blindness, but
> rather some other issue important to or of interest to kids, but with a
> blind protagonist, or even antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always
> little angels than are sighted kids.  I hope someone knows what I mean.
> Not having found a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples
> of what I would like.  Any reccomendations would be appreciated.  Thanks
> much.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/teolivero%40nf
> b.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org  Mon Feb 15 15:56:20 2010
From: sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org (Susan Harper)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:56:20 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring 	blind characters
In-Reply-To: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <f6a56b5c1002150756t5fdefa49i9e1fc166dfc50479@mail.gmail.com>

Since you already have a good idea of what you want, write your own, using
examples that you are aware of on how one of our kids handled a situation.
I can think of the most recent that comes to mind is the you lady who was
recently in a musical in her high school and how brave she was and how
persistent her mom was.  Use your models and adapt to the level/group you
are interested in reaching, then add manipulative, like book in a box
style.  You will have a tool that you can use for many years!
Blessings,
Sue H.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use
> some suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, develop
> games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of
> gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for the
> book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about
> blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being preached
> and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character, prefferably
> a blind child character.  They can be the main character or just a secondary
> character.  The important thing is that the depiction be accurate, not
> condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book have a plot
> and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched for three hours last
> night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find
> any descent books.  They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and often
> inaccurate depictions of blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is
> what blind people are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is
> braille, the end." format.  I want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of
> story, introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity
> blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot line, yadda yadda
> yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with blindness, but rather some
> other issue important to or of interest to kids, but with a blind
> protagonist, or even antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always little
> angels than are sighted kids.  I hope someone knows what I mean.  Not having
> found a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples of what I would
> like.  Any reccomendations would be appreciated.  Thanks much.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
>


From trising at sbcglobal.net  Mon Feb 15 16:06:33 2010
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:06:33 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <5C1778770F7646F8A1E35F29BCC5A315@user6389c7a3c9>

There is Mandy Sue Day by Roberta Karim. I use this book to read to 
kindergarten and first graders when I go to schools and talk to the students 
about blindness. The story does not even say she is blind until the end. It 
goes through a day in the life of the little girl, grooming, and riding and 
feeding her horse. All of her other senses are used, and an observant reader 
can tell she is blind after a few pages, but this is not directly stated 
until the end of the book. I review what the five senses are with the kids, 
and say that this little girl is missing one of her senses. I ask them to 
tell me when they know which sense she is missing. When they stop guessing, 
and actually listen to the story, they get it long before the book actually 
states it. It is a really good story that has no extra protection for the 
little girl involved, just because she is blind. 




From bacheadle at msn.com  Mon Feb 15 17:06:53 2010
From: bacheadle at msn.com (Barbara Cheadle)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:06:53 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
	<7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B0209F8B5@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
	<7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B0209F8B5@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>
Message-ID: <BLU113-DS7063AD81EE77EAB1299F9A44A0@phx.gbl>

Actually, there are several books that I think fit what you want.  I 
recently did a paper analyzing 13 books with blind characters for a 
children's literature course in my Library Science course, and I have long 
had an interest in the topic. (Most of the titles I used are in my own 
private collection of books). Each has a primary character that is blind, 
but blindness is not the main focus, nor is it even directly mentioned in 
most of them.  Check them out and see what you think.  I would be curious 
about your impressions of them.

Children's picture storybooks:

Davis, Patricia A. (2000). Brian's Bird.  (Johnson, Layne, Illus.) Morton 
Grove, IL: Albert Whitman & Company.

Karim, Roberta. (1994).  Mandy Sue Day.  (RAitz, Karen, Illus.) New York: 
Clarion Books.

Young, Ed. (1992)  Seven Blind Mice.  (Young, Ed, Illus.) New York: Philomel 
Books.

Cunningham, Ann.  (2005)  Sadie Can Count, a Multi-Sensory Story and 
Illustrations.  Golden, CO: Sensational Books.  NOTE: You can purchase this 
book from the NFB Independence Market, or go to the Web site: 
www.SensationalBooks.com




For youth literature, try this one:
Savitz, Harriet-May.  (1995).  A Girl's Best Friend.  New York: Scholastic. 
ISBN 0-590-45708-X




Peace.

Barbara Cheadle
Catonsville, MD 21228
(410) 747-3472
cell: (410) 300-5232
bacheadle at msn.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olivero, Treva" <TEOlivero at nfb.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring 
blind characters


> Heather,
> I think some of the Arthur books have a blind secondary character in
> them.
>
> Treva
>
> Treva E. Olivero
>
> Coordinator, Mentoring and Outreach Projects
>
> Jernigan Institute
>
> NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
>
> 200 East Wells Street
>
> at Jernigan Place
>
> Baltimore, MD 21230
>
> Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2295
>
> Fax: (410) 659-5129
>
> Email: teolivero at nfb.org
>
> Visit:
> www.nfb.org/mentoring
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 8:09 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring
> blind characters
>
> Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use
> some suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids,
> develop games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as
> many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers'
> guide for the book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that
> didn't teach about blindness, as even very small children can tell when
> they are being preached and lectured at, but rather one that features a
> blind character, prefferably a blind child character.  They can be the
> main character or just a secondary character.  The important thing is
> that the depiction be accurate, not condescending, not "In your face
> educational" and that the book have a plot and a story, not just a
> series of facts.  I searched for three hours last night on the internet
> with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find any descent books.
> They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and often inaccurate depictions of
> blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind people
> are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is braille, the
> end." format.  I want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of story,
> introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity
> blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot line, yadda
> yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with blindness, but
> rather some other issue important to or of interest to kids, but with a
> blind protagonist, or even antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always
> little angels than are sighted kids.  I hope someone knows what I mean.
> Not having found a decent book like this I can't even offer up examples
> of what I would like.  Any reccomendations would be appreciated.  Thanks
> much.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/teolivero%40nf
> b.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bacheadle%40msn.com
> 



From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Mon Feb 15 18:06:10 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:06:10 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
	<47546.70051.qm@web180213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <384A6C3B0EC24CE8AE86B1C621B7A8C5@7PYZPJ1>

That title sounds familiar.  I will go check it out, thanks.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn Swarthout" <seedlink3 at ameritech.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring 
blind characters


How about Knots on a Counting Rope by Bill Martin? Seedlings has the book in 
contracted and uncontracted Print & Braille.

Dawn Swarthout
Community Outreach
Seedlings Braille Books for Children
www.seedlings.org
800-777-8552 x-307
734-427-8552 x307
seedlink3 at ameritech.net




________________________________
From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 8:08:54 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness, or featuring 
blind characters

Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use some 
suggestions. We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, develop 
games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of 
gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for the 
book and activities. I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about 
blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being preached 
and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character, prefferably 
a blind child character. They can be the main character or just a secondary 
character. The important thing is that the depiction be accurate, not 
condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book have a plot 
and a story, not just a series of facts. I searched for three hours last 
night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of us could find 
any descent books. They all had seriously sstigmatizing, and
 often inaccurate depictions of blindness, in a "This is what blindness is, 
this is what blind people are like, this is a guide dog, this is a cane and 
this is braille, the end." format. I want more of a "Blah blah blah, 
beginning of story, introduce blind character, kid who just happens to be 
blind, blabity blabity blabity development of all characters and a plot 
line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up story that has nothing to do with 
blindness, but rather some other issue important to or of interest to kids, 
but with a blind protagonist, or even antagonist. Blind kids are no more 
always little angels than are sighted kids. I hope someone knows what I 
mean. Not having found a decent book like this I can't even offer up 
examples of what I would like. Any reccomendations would be appreciated. 
Thanks much.
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seedlink3%40ameritech.net
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Mon Feb 15 18:07:06 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:07:06 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
	<5C1778770F7646F8A1E35F29BCC5A315@user6389c7a3c9>
Message-ID: <C29BA8EF093C4589BAC4483A43BD4C8B@7PYZPJ1>

Awsum.  Will check this out for sure.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "trising" <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring 
blind characters


> There is Mandy Sue Day by Roberta Karim. I use this book to read to 
> kindergarten and first graders when I go to schools and talk to the 
> students about blindness. The story does not even say she is blind until 
> the end. It goes through a day in the life of the little girl, grooming, 
> and riding and feeding her horse. All of her other senses are used, and an 
> observant reader can tell she is blind after a few pages, but this is not 
> directly stated until the end of the book. I review what the five senses 
> are with the kids, and say that this little girl is missing one of her 
> senses. I ask them to tell me when they know which sense she is missing. 
> When they stop guessing, and actually listen to the story, they get it 
> long before the book actually states it. It is a really good story that 
> has no extra protection for the little girl involved, just because she is 
> blind.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From newmanrl at cox.net  Mon Feb 15 18:49:47 2010
From: newmanrl at cox.net (Robert Leslie Newman)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:49:47 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] New THOUGHT PROVOKER #154- White Canes and Windmills
Message-ID: <04B9D7BFD1F142AB819C6B22EEC4B20F@RobertLesliePC>

Blindkid 

RE: White Canes and Windmills 

 

The new THOUGHT PROVOKER is all about a blind boy that is going to have his
first day at school using his long white cane and he is nervous. How would
you deal with this type of nervousness? See how Danny copes with it. If you
have not read the PROVOKER, it follows.  Recall that I collect responses and
post them upon my web site for all the WWW to read and learn from and that
URL is-  <http://thoughtprovoker.info/> Http://thoughtprovoker.info  If you
wish to receive THOUGHT PROVOKERS sent directly to you, just write me and
ask, at-  newmanrl at cox.net 

 

 

THOUGHT PROVOKER 154

White Canes and Windmills

 

In his bedroom, Danny picked up his long white cane, his first. Its weight
was easy to handle. Holding it up and straight out before him, he gave it a
tentative sword-like, back-and-forth swish. This would be his first day
using it at school and he couldn't kid himself, he was nervous about how
people would react to him.

 

"Danny," his mother called up to him from downstairs. "Come down. You need
to start walking to school, son." 

 

"Sixty seconds, Mom." Lowering the cane, positioning it at center, Danny
tapped it left to right in the two-point touch method he had been taught.
"Wonder what the girls will think?" Danny looked inward and began to
fantasize.

 

It was a warm day. It was after school and he was walking home, using his
new cane. At Maple and Main, the usual group of snooty girls was gathered,
visiting. Danny knew they saw him coming; his stride was confident,
shoulders back, head up, swinging in a steady rhythm, arching his cane, not
staring down at shuffling feet like before. He was truckin'!

 

DING-DING, the ice-cream truck drove by. 

 

"Oh, stop, stop!" Cried all the girls, but the truck kept on rolling down
the street.

 

"I'll stop him!" In his dream, Danny leaps forward; cane flashing; he
sprints down the walk; catches up with the truck; reaches out and taps the
windshield with his cane tip; the truck stops.

 

"Danny." his mother calls again. 

 

"Yes Mom, just 40 seconds." Feeling excited about what he might be able to
use his cane for, Danny lifts it up, this time in the on-guard sword
position. In his fantasy he is now on the neighborhood playground, walking
with his cane and . . .

 

"Hey Squint, where's your magnifying glasses and what's that wimpy stick?"
The blunt end of a baseball bat poked into Danny's stomach, punctuating the
bully's last word.

 

Danny jumps back, whirls a three-sixty and with the tip of his cane flicks
the bully's baseball hat off his head. 

 

"Hey!" Taken by surprise, the bully retaliates, swinging the bat. 

 

The WHOOSH of the oncoming danger cues Danny to step back and the bat swings
by harmlessly. Countering with his trusty cane, Danny steps forward and
spanks the bully sharply on the seat of his pants.

 

"OUCH! Grrr, I'll get you for that!" Bat pulled back for another swing, the
bully leaps forward.

 

Danny jumps onto a lower rung of a set of climbing bars; the bully swings
again; Danny sidesteps; RING the bat strikes the bars; the bat brakes; the
bully yells with the pain of the splintering wood in his hands; Danny
thrusts out, inserting the dirty tip of his cane into the bully's open
mouth. 

 

"Danny?" His mother's voice brings him back. "Are you coming?"

 

"Twenty seconds, Mom." Danny's pumped, his thoughts are racing, seeing great
potential for him and his new cane; maybe even school-wide fame. . .

 

The scene is the crowded school's playground. He visualizes the towering
structures of the wind turbines lining the edge of the school's property.
This was recess and the kids were doing what they've done since the
windmills were built--they watched the whirling propellers, boasting on what
they'd do if they could climb the towers. 

 

Walking out in front of all the gathered students, Danny snaps on a hook to
the tip-end of his cane; he jumps skyward; he hooks a blade as it swings
down; he is lifted up and rides around waving to the astonishment and
admiration of all. 

 

"Danny, you need to come down, now!"

 

"Yes, Mom." New cane in hand, Danny speeds downstairs, ready to tackle the
day.

 



From specialcritters at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 15 19:43:03 2010
From: specialcritters at hotmail.com (Lee Truslow)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:43:03 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] 40 New Books from Seedlings Braille Books!
Message-ID: <auto-000139518235@mailfront2.g2host.com>


Having trouble viewing this email? Click here

















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seedlings Braille Books for Children
Announces: 40 New Low-cost Braille Books Now Available!
February 2010
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





Seedlings' 2010 Catalog Update is ready!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We are very excited to announce that our 2010 
Catalog Update will be in the mail to you very 
soon, but you don't have to wait. The new books 
are already listed on our website and are ready to be ordered!

New Print-Braille-&-Picture Books in Uncontracted Braille:
    Baby's Very First Touchy-Feely Book
    Clifford's Bedtime
    Let's Eat--Vamos A Comer (in English & Spanish)
    Little Quack Loves Colors

New Print-Braille-&-Picture Books in Contracted Braille:
    First Picture Nursery Rhymes
    Mama's Right Here

New Print-and-Braille Easy-Readers (no pictures):
    Caps for Sale (in uncontracted braille)
    Barack Obama: Out of Many, One (in contracted braille)



  New Braille Fiction in Contracted Braille
    (no print or pictures):


    Allie Finkle's Rules for Girls Book One: Moving Day
    American Girls: Happy Birthday, Molly!
    American Girls: Happy Birthday, Samantha!
    American Girls: Julie Tells Her Story
    American Girls: Thanks to Nicki
    Animal Rescue: Charlie the Home-Alone Kitten
    The Blind Outlaw
    Boxcar Children #25: The Amusement Park Mystery
    Boxcar Children #37: The Mystery of the Lost Village
    The Breadwinner--An Afghan Child in a War Torn Land
    Charlie Bone and the Invisible Boy
    Dear America: When Will This Cruel War Be Over?
    The Egyptian Box
    Goosebumps Horrorland #1: Revenge of the Living Dummy
    Hardy Boys #59: Night of the Werewolf
    Igraine the Brave
    The Jungle Book
    Junie B. Jones Is a Party Animal (#10)
    Junie B., First Grader: Boss of Lunch (#19)
    Junie B., First Grader: Cheater Pants (#21)
    Lady Grace Mysteries: Conspiracy
    Magic Tree House #9: Dolphins at Daybreak
    Magic Tree House #37: Dragon of the Red Dawn
    Nancy Drew and the Clue Crew: The Zoo Crew
    Robinson Crusoe (Junior Classics edition)
    A Swiftly Tilting Planet
    Three Stories from Winnie-the-Pooh
    Wayside School Is Falling Down
    The Window

New Braille Poetry in Contracted Braille (no print or pictures):
    Where the Sidewalk Ends

New Braille Nonfiction in Contracted Braille (no print or pictures):
    First Kids: The True Stories of All the Presidents' Children
    Growl! A Book about Bears

You don't have to wait for your flyer to arrive. 
Check out our 1,000+ braille books right now on 
our accessible website: Seedlings' Online Catalog

For a list of the new books with authors and 
prices, see the What's New section.

To download a textfile version of Seedlings' 
Catalog with the new books added, please click 
this link: Seedlings' Catalog--Textfile Version

Seedlings' books are always "on sale": we sell 
them for only a fraction of what it costs to make 
them, and our prices have not been raised in 25 years!

"The road to knowledge begins with the turn of the page."
Order some books today!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



2010 Book Angel Program ... Register Now!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seedlings' Book Angel Program is open to 
visually-impaired children who live in the US, 
and through this program each child can receive 2 
free Seedlings' books (you list 4 books from our 
catalog and we will send 2 of them.)

To register, just fill out the form on page 52 of 
the 2010 catalog, or better yet, fill it out 
online right now by clicking here: Seedlings' Book Angel Program
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



An Easy Way To Help ... Use GoodSearch & GoodShop
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seedlings Braille Books for Children is a 501(c)3 
nonprofit organization dedicated to increasing 
the opportunity for literacy by providing 
high-quality, low-cost children's literature in 
braille. The services we provide are completely 
dependent upon the generosity of our supporters.

You can help in a very simple way:  you can earn 
money for Seedlings every time you search the 
internet or shop online! Just go to 
www.goodsearch.com and type "Seedlings" in the 
"Who do you GoodSearch for?" box. Be sure to 
bookmark the page and use it for all your searches and online shopping.

If you go through GoodSearch to your favorite 
online stores (there are over 1,000 stores ... 
everything from Amazon to Walgreen's), a 
percentage of your total will be donated to 
Seedlings by the vendor!  It doesn't cost you 
anything extra and the dollars donated to Seedlings add up quickly!

As always, we deeply appreciate all of your help 
and support! We couldn't do what we do without you!

With gratitute,
Debra J. Bonde, Director
Seedlings Braille Books for Children







Quick Links...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seedlings' Website
Seedlings' Online Catalog of Braille Books & Gift Items
List of New Books (with authors & prices)
  Special Projects (like our Book Angel Program)
GoodSearch & GoodShop
To Donate to Seedlings
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Seedlings' Contact Information
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
website: www.seedlings.org
phone: 800-777-8552
fax: 734-427-8552
email: info at seedlings.org
mail: PO Box 51924, Livonia, MI 48151-5924
visit: 14151 Farmington Road, Livonia, MI 48154
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From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 21:18:34 2010
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:18:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <C29BA8EF093C4589BAC4483A43BD4C8B@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <350651.54120.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I have a 3 page list that our librarian made up for me (yay librarians!). Would it be okay if I scanned it and emailed the list?
Colleen
TVI in TX

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness, or featuring blind characters
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 12:07 PM

Awsum.? Will check this out for sure.
----- Original Message ----- From: "trising" <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring blind characters


> There is Mandy Sue Day by Roberta Karim. I use this book to read to kindergarten and first graders when I go to schools and talk to the students about blindness. The story does not even say she is blind until the end. It goes through a day in the life of the little girl, grooming, and riding and feeding her horse. All of her other senses are used, and an observant reader can tell she is blind after a few pages, but this is not directly stated until the end of the book. I review what the five senses are with the kids, and say that this little girl is missing one of her senses. I ask them to tell me when they know which sense she is missing. When they stop guessing, and actually listen to the story, they get it long before the book actually states it. It is a really good story that has no extra protection for the little girl involved, just because she is blind.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bldhnds52%40yahoo.com


From albert at myblindspot.org  Mon Feb 15 21:34:54 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:34:54 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <350651.54120.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <C29BA8EF093C4589BAC4483A43BD4C8B@7PYZPJ1>
	<350651.54120.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E0D8A6C95A344954A1F17870F4AD4AF6@JkTC4D1>

Would you mind emailing the list to me as well? I am developing a
kindergarten program and would think that any literature would be something
I could benefit from. I would love to be able to build on something such as
what you are gathering from this librarian. thanks

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Colleen Davis
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:19 PM
To: (for parents of blind children)NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring
blind characters

I have a 3 page list that our librarian made up for me (yay librarians!).
Would it be okay if I scanned it and emailed the list?
Colleen
TVI in TX

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness, or featuring
blind characters
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 12:07 PM

Awsum.? Will check this out for sure.
----- Original Message ----- From: "trising" <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring
blind characters


> There is Mandy Sue Day by Roberta Karim. I use this book to read to
kindergarten and first graders when I go to schools and talk to the students
about blindness. The story does not even say she is blind until the end. It
goes through a day in the life of the little girl, grooming, and riding and
feeding her horse. All of her other senses are used, and an observant reader
can tell she is blind after a few pages, but this is not directly stated
until the end of the book. I review what the five senses are with the kids,
and say that this little girl is missing one of her senses. I ask them to
tell me when they know which sense she is missing. When they stop guessing,
and actually listen to the story, they get it long before the book actually
states it. It is a really good story that has no extra protection for the
little girl involved, just because she is blind.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com 


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bldhnds52%40yahoo.
com
_______________________________________________
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ot.org




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Mon Feb 15 23:07:10 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:07:10 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
 or  featuring blind char...
In-Reply-To: <B9C62807543641D3BDDFEB224E774B70@7PYZPJ1>
References: <3b78.25ad2e9f.38aaae19@aol.com>
	<B9C62807543641D3BDDFEB224E774B70@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <820311.60653.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I have a copy of Barbara Cheadle's paper.  Heather, I will send it to 
you off-list.  If anyone else would like to see it, please email me 
off-list and I will forward it to you.
Carol

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc

At 10:09 AM 2/15/2010, you wrote:
>Awsum.  I will go check it out.  I'll have to be sure not to look at 
>the teacher's guide though, as part of the assignment is to use a 
>preexisting book, but all origonal games and activities.  If I read 
>about them, I might inadvertently use something similar.  If I 
>happen to pick similar ideas, never having seen the official 
>teacher's guide, that is alright.  I will of course have a look at 
>that piece, after I have the bulk of my teacher's guide 
>finished.  Thanks so much.  Even if the age range is just too high 
>for this assignment.  It is a great resource to have, as a 
>homeschooling parent and as a student who wishes to teach kindergardin.
>----- Original Message ----- From: <Smoki2 at aol.com>
>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:03 AM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or 
>featuring blind char...
>
>
>>I am the author of the picture book, Keep Your Ear on the  Ball.  It sounds
>>like the type of book you're looking for, but it's the  preschool thing
>>that may be an issue, more than the "preachy" thing.  I  have used 
>>the book in
>>a number of school visits which included  kindergarten, but haven't read the
>>book to pre-K kids.  Check it out.   Possibly, if it's used in a small
>>group with some discussion, it may prove to be  what you need.  Also, the
>>publisher provides an entire Teachers Take Note  section to 
>>accompany the book.
>>It includes references, games, classroom  activities, and lots of other fun
>>stuff.
>>_Keep Your  Ear on the Ball - Tilbury House_
>>(http://tilburyhouse.com/childrens/keep-your-ear-on-the-ball.htm)
>>
>>Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
>>Genevieve Petrillo
>>
>>Genevieve Petrillo
>>Children's Author /  Poet
>>smoki2 at aol.com
>>genevievepetrillo.webs.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In a message dated 2/15/2010 8:44:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>craney07 at rochester.rr.com writes:
>>
>>Ok, so I  am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use
>>some  suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, develop
>>games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many of
>>gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide for the
>>book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach about
>>blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being preached
>>and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character,
>>prefferably a  blind child character.  They can be the main 
>>character or just a
>>secondary character.  The important thing is that the depiction be 
>>accurate, not
>>condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book  have a
>>plot and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched 
>>for  three hours last
>>night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of  us could find
>>any descent books.  They all had seriously sstigmatizing,  and often
>>inaccurate depictions of
>>blindness, in a "This is what  blindness is, this is what blind people are
>>like, this is a guide dog, this is  a cane and this is braille, the end."
>>format.  I want more of a "Blah  blah blah, beginning of story, introduce
>>blind character, kid who just happens  to be blind, blabity blabity blabity
>>development of all characters and a plot  line, yadda yadda yadda, 
>>wrap up story
>>that has nothing to do with blindness,  but rather some other issue
>>important to or of interest to kids, but with a  blind protagonist, or even
>>antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always  little angels than are 
>>sighted kids.  I
>>hope someone knows what I  mean.  Not having found a decent book like this
>>I can't even offer up  examples of what I would like.  Any reccomendations
>>would be  appreciated.  Thanks  much.
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing  list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smoki2%40aol.com
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From missheather at comcast.net  Mon Feb 15 23:19:41 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:19:41 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
References: <3b78.25ad2e9f.38aaae19@aol.com>
	<B9C62807543641D3BDDFEB224E774B70@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <25465D42E6A447E48EE084CF088FF2E4@heathersony>

Hello,
This question comes up from time to time on the list. If you go to
www.nfbnet.org
scroll down to the blind kid list, click on it and find the archives, 
I believe you'll find a couple of booklists sent in the past. Just 
search the archive. As I recall there was also a review done by Alison 
Hiliker who had read many of the books herself as a child.

If, for some reason, you can't find the lists, let me know and I'll 
try to find them in my files and send them.

Regards,

Heather Field
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or 
featuring blind char...


Awsum.  I will go check it out.  I'll have to be sure not to look at 
the
teacher's guide though, as part of the assignment is to use a 
preexisting
book, but all origonal games and activities.  If I read about them, I 
might
inadvertently use something similar.  If I happen to pick similar 
ideas,
never having seen the official teacher's guide, that is alright.  I 
will of
course have a look at that piece, after I have the bulk of my 
teacher's
guide finished.  Thanks so much.  Even if the age range is just too 
high for
this assignment.  It is a great resource to have, as a homeschooling 
parent
and as a student who wishes to teach kindergardin.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Smoki2 at aol.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or 
featuring
blind char...


>I am the author of the picture book, Keep Your Ear on the  Ball.  It 
>sounds
> like the type of book you're looking for, but it's the  preschool 
> thing
> that may be an issue, more than the "preachy" thing.  I  have used 
> the
> book in
> a number of school visits which included  kindergarten, but haven't 
> read
> the
> book to pre-K kids.  Check it out.   Possibly, if it's used in a 
> small
> group with some discussion, it may prove to be  what you need. 
> Also, the
> publisher provides an entire Teachers Take Note  section to 
> accompany the
> book.
> It includes references, games, classroom  activities, and lots of 
> other
> fun
> stuff.
> _Keep Your  Ear on the Ball - Tilbury House_
> (http://tilburyhouse.com/childrens/keep-your-ear-on-the-ball.htm)
>
> Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
> Genevieve Petrillo
>
> Genevieve Petrillo
> Children's Author /  Poet
> smoki2 at aol.com
> genevievepetrillo.webs.com
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/15/2010 8:44:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> craney07 at rochester.rr.com writes:
>
> Ok, so I  am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could 
> use
> some  suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged 
> kids,
> develop
> games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many 
> of
> gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide 
> for
> the
> book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach 
> about
> blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being
> preached
> and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character,
> prefferably a  blind child character.  They can be the main 
> character or
> just a
> secondary character.  The important thing is that the depiction be
> accurate, not
> condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book 
> have a
> plot and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched for  three 
> hours
> last
> night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of  us 
> could find
> any descent books.  They all had seriously sstigmatizing,  and often
> inaccurate depictions of
> blindness, in a "This is what  blindness is, this is what blind 
> people are
> like, this is a guide dog, this is  a cane and this is braille, the 
> end."
> format.  I want more of a "Blah  blah blah, beginning of story, 
> introduce
> blind character, kid who just happens  to be blind, blabity blabity
> blabity
> development of all characters and a plot  line, yadda yadda yadda, 
> wrap up
> story
> that has nothing to do with blindness,  but rather some other issue
> important to or of interest to kids, but with a  blind protagonist, 
> or
> even
> antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always  little angels than are 
> sighted
> kids.  I
> hope someone knows what I  mean.  Not having found a decent book 
> like this
> I can't even offer up  examples of what I would like.  Any 
> reccomendations
> would be  appreciated.  Thanks  much.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing  list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smoki2%40aol.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 





From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 23:46:53 2010
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:46:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
Message-ID: <763245.88913.qm@web65411.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Dear Group,
I misspoke--this list was compiled by the wonderful folks at Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired (TSBVI). I have pasted a link to the list at the end of this message, but if it doesn't work, just go to the TSBVI website--tsbvi.edu. I like it because it gives a brief description of the book. The TSBVI website holds a wealth of knowledge for parents, teachers, and kids.

Several books that on the list are available from APH with quota funds, so check with your VI teacher. He/she should be able to get some for you.

Good luck and on behalf of all us TVIs, thank you for reading with your children!

Colleen
TVI in TX

http://www.tsbvi.edu/Education/books.htm

From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 00:21:29 2010
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:21:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] books featuring characters who are visually impaired
Message-ID: <412814.50729.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Hi, Folks,

Here are the resources that I know of.

http://lists.aerbvi.org/pipermail/aernet_lists.aerbvi.org/2008-September/010143.html
http://www.tsbvi.edu/Education/books.htm

If you google what I have written in the subject line, there are several resources. I would like to encourage to give a copy of the list to your school's librarian so that she can put some of these books in your child's library.

Enjoy!
Colleen
TVI in TX



From graduate56 at juno.com  Tue Feb 16 02:09:21 2010
From: graduate56 at juno.com (Melissa Green)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:09:21 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
References: <9290C87829A94EB488FB3099EC3909C5@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <116F0D583E524D1484E6811D83BDF5C7@melissa>

A cane in her hand is a really good book.  Not sure of the author.
Another one is mandy sue day.
Will look through my prior lists of things from my ed classes and see what I 
can find.


Have a blessed day.
Warmly,
Melissa Green
"At the center of your being you have the answer; you know who you are and 
you know what you want."
Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
twitter: melissa5674
msn: graduate1531 at msn.com
Skype: lissa5674


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 6:08 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring blind 
characters


> Ok, so I am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could use 
> some suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged kids, 
> develop games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as 
> many of gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' 
> guide for the book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that 
> didn't teach about blindness, as even very small children can tell when 
> they are being preached and lectured at, but rather one that features a 
> blind character, prefferably a blind child character.  They can be the 
> main character or just a secondary character.  The important thing is that 
> the depiction be accurate, not condescending, not "In your face 
> educational" and that the book have a plot and a story, not just a series 
> of facts.  I searched for three hours last night on the internet with my 
> fiance's help, and neither of us could find any descent books.  They all 
> had seriously sstigmatizing, and often inaccurate depictions of blindness, 
> in a "This is what blindness is, this is what blind people are like, this 
> is a guide dog, this is a cane and this is braille, the end." format.  I 
> want more of a "Blah blah blah, beginning of story, introduce blind 
> character, kid who just happens to be blind, blabity blabity blabity 
> development of all characters and a plot line, yadda yadda yadda, wrap up 
> story that has nothing to do with blindness, but rather some other issue 
> important to or of interest to kids, but with a blind protagonist, or even 
> antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always little angels than are sighted 
> kids.  I hope someone knows what I mean.  Not having found a decent book 
> like this I can't even offer up examples of what I would like.  Any 
> reccomendations would be appreciated.  Thanks much.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
> 

____________________________________________________________
Small Business Tools
Compete with the big boys.  Click here to find products to benefit your business.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=ZapyCFiqgzA-pMbIwC0OKwAAJ1CiJJfKdJEYzfkzgB1nTvZYAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARMQAAAAA=



From albert at myblindspot.org  Tue Feb 16 12:11:05 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:11:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <25465D42E6A447E48EE084CF088FF2E4@heathersony>
References: <3b78.25ad2e9f.38aaae19@aol.com><B9C62807543641D3BDDFEB224E774B70@7PYZPJ1>
	<25465D42E6A447E48EE084CF088FF2E4@heathersony>
Message-ID: <481EC78AFAA8443F9A8CA0E5AC3E47CC@JkTC4D1>

Thank you so much for this wonderful resource.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of H. Field
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 6:20 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring blind
characters

Hello,
This question comes up from time to time on the list. If you go to
www.nfbnet.org
scroll down to the blind kid list, click on it and find the archives, 
I believe you'll find a couple of booklists sent in the past. Just 
search the archive. As I recall there was also a review done by Alison 
Hiliker who had read many of the books herself as a child.

If, for some reason, you can't find the lists, let me know and I'll 
try to find them in my files and send them.

Regards,

Heather Field
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or 
featuring blind char...


Awsum.  I will go check it out.  I'll have to be sure not to look at 
the
teacher's guide though, as part of the assignment is to use a 
preexisting
book, but all origonal games and activities.  If I read about them, I 
might
inadvertently use something similar.  If I happen to pick similar 
ideas,
never having seen the official teacher's guide, that is alright.  I 
will of
course have a look at that piece, after I have the bulk of my 
teacher's
guide finished.  Thanks so much.  Even if the age range is just too 
high for
this assignment.  It is a great resource to have, as a homeschooling 
parent
and as a student who wishes to teach kindergardin.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Smoki2 at aol.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or 
featuring
blind char...


>I am the author of the picture book, Keep Your Ear on the  Ball.  It 
>sounds
> like the type of book you're looking for, but it's the  preschool 
> thing
> that may be an issue, more than the "preachy" thing.  I  have used 
> the
> book in
> a number of school visits which included  kindergarten, but haven't 
> read
> the
> book to pre-K kids.  Check it out.   Possibly, if it's used in a 
> small
> group with some discussion, it may prove to be  what you need. 
> Also, the
> publisher provides an entire Teachers Take Note  section to 
> accompany the
> book.
> It includes references, games, classroom  activities, and lots of 
> other
> fun
> stuff.
> _Keep Your  Ear on the Ball - Tilbury House_
> (http://tilburyhouse.com/childrens/keep-your-ear-on-the-ball.htm)
>
> Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
> Genevieve Petrillo
>
> Genevieve Petrillo
> Children's Author /  Poet
> smoki2 at aol.com
> genevievepetrillo.webs.com
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/15/2010 8:44:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> craney07 at rochester.rr.com writes:
>
> Ok, so I  am creating a literacy kit for my EDU200 class and I could 
> use
> some  suggestions.  We are to select a book for pre-school aged 
> kids,
> develop
> games, art projects, other similar activities that appeal to as many 
> of
> gardiner's multiple intelligences as possible, and a teachers' guide 
> for
> the
> book and activities.  I was hoping to find a book that didn't teach 
> about
> blindness, as even very small children can tell when they are being
> preached
> and lectured at, but rather one that features a blind character,
> prefferably a  blind child character.  They can be the main 
> character or
> just a
> secondary character.  The important thing is that the depiction be
> accurate, not
> condescending, not "In your face educational" and that the book 
> have a
> plot and a story, not just a series of facts.  I searched for  three 
> hours
> last
> night on the internet with my fiance's help, and neither of  us 
> could find
> any descent books.  They all had seriously sstigmatizing,  and often
> inaccurate depictions of
> blindness, in a "This is what  blindness is, this is what blind 
> people are
> like, this is a guide dog, this is  a cane and this is braille, the 
> end."
> format.  I want more of a "Blah  blah blah, beginning of story, 
> introduce
> blind character, kid who just happens  to be blind, blabity blabity
> blabity
> development of all characters and a plot  line, yadda yadda yadda, 
> wrap up
> story
> that has nothing to do with blindness,  but rather some other issue
> important to or of interest to kids, but with a  blind protagonist, 
> or
> even
> antagonist.  Blind kids are no more always  little angels than are 
> sighted
> kids.  I
> hope someone knows what I  mean.  Not having found a decent book 
> like this
> I can't even offer up  examples of what I would like.  Any 
> reccomendations
> would be  appreciated.  Thanks  much.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing  list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smoki2%40aol.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comc
ast.net 



_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
ot.org




From albert at myblindspot.org  Tue Feb 16 12:23:25 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:23:25 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,
	or featuring blind characters
In-Reply-To: <763245.88913.qm@web65411.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <763245.88913.qm@web65411.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <70952D19C11E43A2B8AEB8F0CEE21EDB@JkTC4D1>

Thank you colleen 

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Colleen Davis
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 6:47 PM
To: (for parents of blind children)NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List
Cc: albert at mylindspot.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Children's books addressing blindness,or featuring
blind characters

Dear Group,
I misspoke--this list was compiled by the wonderful folks at Texas School
for the Blind and Visually Impaired (TSBVI). I have pasted a link to the
list at the end of this message, but if it doesn't work, just go to the
TSBVI website--tsbvi.edu. I like it because it gives a brief description of
the book. The TSBVI website holds a wealth of knowledge for parents,
teachers, and kids.

Several books that on the list are available from APH with quota funds, so
check with your VI teacher. He/she should be able to get some for you.

Good luck and on behalf of all us TVIs, thank you for reading with your
children!

Colleen
TVI in TX

http://www.tsbvi.edu/Education/books.htm
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
ot.org




From grace at babymilagro.org  Tue Feb 16 19:49:30 2010
From: grace at babymilagro.org (Grace Tiscareno-Sato)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:49:30 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Book--Mandy Sue Day
Message-ID: <4B7AF6CA.8080004@babymilagro.org>

Two thumbs up for Mandy Sue Day....three thumbs if I had them.
The girl with the horse and all the sensory details are excellent, plus 
I loved the fact that we don't learn she's blind until the end and in a 
very subtle way that doesn't make a big deal out of the fact.

Here's a link to a review. 
http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/fr/fr19/Issue1/f190104.htm

Enjoy!

Grace Tiscareno-Sato



From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Wed Feb 17 00:27:44 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:27:44 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Book--Mandy Sue Day
References: <4B7AF6CA.8080004@babymilagro.org>
Message-ID: <458BC5CD54B8473F9004CFA154FFD89D@7PYZPJ1>

Thanks so much.  I read the review, and tomorrow I am going to show this to 
our group and we will find it and give it a read.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grace Tiscareno-Sato" <grace at babymilagro.org>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Book--Mandy Sue Day


> Two thumbs up for Mandy Sue Day....three thumbs if I had them.
> The girl with the horse and all the sensory details are excellent, plus I 
> loved the fact that we don't learn she's blind until the end and in a very 
> subtle way that doesn't make a big deal out of the fact.
>
> Here's a link to a review. 
> http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/fr/fr19/Issue1/f190104.htm
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Grace Tiscareno-Sato
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From ortonsmom at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 05:25:06 2010
From: ortonsmom at gmail.com (Joy Orton)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:25:06 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
Message-ID: <265f5e391002162125j581d95bbx82c188429069fddb@mail.gmail.com>

I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
the director of a local charity & food pantry.

Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and her
Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.

Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
several years in a row, and  she took top honors in 2006-2007.

I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
Joy Orton


From kim at gulfimagesphoto.com  Wed Feb 17 12:12:16 2010
From: kim at gulfimagesphoto.com (Kim Cunningham)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:12:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
In-Reply-To: <265f5e391002162125j581d95bbx82c188429069fddb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <698185.89711.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Congratulations Ahbee! I am also proud of your accomplishments. Like I tell my daughter....Hard work always pays off!
Kim Cunningham

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 11:25 PM


I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
the director of a local charity & food pantry.

Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and her
Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.

Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
several years in a row, and? she took top honors in 2006-2007.

I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
Joy Orton
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/kim%40gulfimagesphoto.com


From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 17 12:19:59 2010
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:19:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
In-Reply-To: <698185.89711.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <698185.89711.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <282565.58966.qm@web112507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Whoo hoo! Toot that horn, Mama! Good going for Ahbee!

 Debby
bwbddl at yahoo.com




________________________________
From: Kim Cunningham <kim at gulfimagesphoto.com>
To: (for parents of blind children)NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 7:12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year

Congratulations Ahbee! I am also proud of your accomplishments. Like I tell my daughter....Hard work always pays off!
Kim Cunningham

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 11:25 PM


I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
the director of a local charity & food pantry.

Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and her
Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.

Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
several years in a row, and  she took top honors in 2006-2007.

I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
Joy Orton
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/kim%40gulfimagesphoto.com
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bwbddl%40yahoo.com



      

From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Wed Feb 17 13:28:31 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:28:31 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
References: <265f5e391002162125j581d95bbx82c188429069fddb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0A536EC12C504E2AAA3DBF2BD6C9BBFB@7PYZPJ1>

So, very cool, citizen of the year.  Congradulations.  Behind every awsum 
kid is a great sense of self and selfesteme, which comes from a great mom, 
or a great coach or teacher.  You are the great mom here.  So, 
congradulations to you too.  So, winning the braille challenge is part of 
the reason for the award, what did she do in the community?  I love to see 
blind kids volinteering and making a difference.  Or, is it related to the 
Braille challenge?  That is, is there a reach out piece where the winners 
tutor blind kids with poor braille skills, or, something like that?  Am very 
interested in all of this.  I have a friend who has three blind children, 
she homeschools, and their family isn't big on competition, but they are 
huge on community outreach and giving back, so if there is a citizenship 
portion to this all, she might have her three participate next year.  Again, 
congradulations.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joy Orton" <ortonsmom at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:25 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year


>I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
> won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
> been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
> Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
> the director of a local charity & food pantry.
>
> Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and 
> her
> Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.
>
> Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
> and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
> Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
> several years in a row, and  she took top honors in 2006-2007.
>
> I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
> Joy Orton
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From empwrn at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb 17 14:47:04 2010
From: empwrn at bellsouth.net (Marie)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:47:04 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
In-Reply-To: <282565.58966.qm@web112507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <698185.89711.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<282565.58966.qm@web112507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005a01caafe0$170948e0$451bdaa0$@net>

Congratulations! Toot toot! 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Debby B
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 6:20 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year

Whoo hoo! Toot that horn, Mama! Good going for Ahbee!

 Debby
bwbddl at yahoo.com




________________________________
From: Kim Cunningham <kim at gulfimagesphoto.com>
To: (for parents of blind children)NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 7:12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year

Congratulations Ahbee! I am also proud of your accomplishments. Like I tell
my daughter....Hard work always pays off!
Kim Cunningham

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 11:25 PM


I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
the director of a local charity & food pantry.

Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and her
Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.

Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
several years in a row, and  she took top honors in 2006-2007.

I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
Joy Orton
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/kim%40gulfimagesph
oto.com
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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blindkid:
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.net




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Wed Feb 17 16:24:05 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:24:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
In-Reply-To: <265f5e391002162125j581d95bbx82c188429069fddb@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <265f5e391002162125j581d95bbx82c188429069fddb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560400.1255.qm@smtp101.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi Joy,

Congratulations on this wonderful award!  We join you in your pride!

Perhaps you could nominate Ahbee's teacher for our Distinguished 
Educator of Blind Children award.

All the best,
Carol

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc

At 12:25 AM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
>won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
>been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
>Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
>the director of a local charity & food pantry.
>
>Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and her
>Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.
>
>Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
>and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
>Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
>several years in a row, and  she took top honors in 2006-2007.
>
>I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
>Joy Orton
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 18:20:35 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:20:35 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
References: <265f5e391002162125j581d95bbx82c188429069fddb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A35C94193EA4A2095EEAB47CF084E66@LivingRoom>

How cool is that.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joy Orton" <ortonsmom at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:25 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year


>I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
> won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
> been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
> Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
> the director of a local charity & food pantry.
>
> Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and 
> her
> Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.
>
> Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
> and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
> Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
> several years in a row, and  she took top honors in 2006-2007.
>
> I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
> Joy Orton
>
> 




From owinm at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 17 23:29:03 2010
From: owinm at yahoo.com (Merry-Noel Chamberlain)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:29:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
In-Reply-To: <265f5e391002162125j581d95bbx82c188429069fddb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <348841.43382.qm@web43412.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

JOY!!
SUCH A JOY TO HEAR!!? I'm so excited for her and your family!!!? Congrats!!
Merry-Noel

--- On Wed, 2/17/10, Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Joy Orton <ortonsmom at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Crowley Citizen of the Year
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 5:25 AM


I have to toot the horn a bit for my wonderful daughter. Ahbee Orton, who
won in the Apprentice division of the Braille Challenge last summer, has
been awarded the Chamber of Commerce 2009 Citizen of the Year award by the
Crowley, Texas, Chamber of Commerce. The other nominees were the mayor and
the director of a local charity & food pantry.

Ahbee's braille reading skills helped her win the Braille Challenge, and her
Braille Challenge success was cited in her award of Citizen of the Year.

Ahbee's braille skills are attributable to her teacher, Michelle Garrett,
and her transcriptionist, Mary Elliott, and her continued love of reading.
Ahbee has participated in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest for
several years in a row, and? she took top honors in 2006-2007.

I'm a proud mom. Just had to share.
Joy Orton
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/owinm%40yahoo.com



      

From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Feb 18 03:01:13 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:01:13 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
Message-ID: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>

I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my 
experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to 
say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, 
and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what 
assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using 
with her child?

Dave




From k7uij at panix.com  Thu Feb 18 03:46:37 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:46:37 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>

A slate and stylus!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she had 
>a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up with 
>her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 




From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 18 04:43:02 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:43:02 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <2FB490E1CA9246A7AD529057BF714FDF@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     I don't think there is much technology for little kids. Sighted 
preschoolers have access to computer games and electronic toys. I think some 
of the LeapFrog stuff can be modified. Intelikeys could be used, but I am 
not familiar with what is currently out there.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:01 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she had 
>a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up with 
>her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 05:09:25 2010
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:09:25 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
Message-ID: <4b7ccb87.5744f10a.7585.7b7a@mx.google.com>

Right on Mike. But also, four year old sighted kids are doing technology and
are able to likely run the dvd player, the remote on the tv, the radio or cd
player, dial 911 and play games at least on the computer or Wii. So the
answers are how can she do the same things...what if any access does the
child require, she can learn button placement and keyboard layout and number
pad display layouts...non-visual techniques or touch technique. Maybe one of
the free screenreaders to start exploring? 

You can also recommend our Saturday school to her, every third Saturday of
the month 10am to noon at our center. One this Saturday. We have a couple of
kindergarteners and there will be a separate parent class this time, she can
meet other parents and start to get to know some blind adults and other
blind children.

Email me private Dave if you have questions or want to give her my phone or
cell# or if u already have it, pass it on.

Carrie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:47 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

A slate and stylus!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she had

>a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up with 
>her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 


_______________________________________________
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blindkid:
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ail.com




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 05:42:50 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:42:50 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>

Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a  
bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have  
the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be  
ready for the whole mirror image concept.

A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I  
know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a  
braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted  
almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.  
Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like  
writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at  
first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the  
child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"  
just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an  
important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and  
form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand  
and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.  
Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use  
at home for free once the child is in school.

I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all  
the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to  
them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in  
fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on  
what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of  
these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics  
solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,  
and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar  
thermoform; quite a range of options exists.

Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still  
uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her  
computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille  
and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see  
for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot  
of technology in use by an early age.

It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as  
possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this  
child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient  
braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille  
stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,  
table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the  
child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"  
and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use  
twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read  
most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best  
when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below  
the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are  
exploring the braille.

Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.  
Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be  
careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten  
or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a  
mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up  
all of this child's life, at least from time to time.

I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift  
overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct  
her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide  
which way she wants to proceed.

http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm


Richard




On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:

> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  
> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   
> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  
> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what  
> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  
> with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From icdx at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 18 05:52:51 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:52:51 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
Message-ID: <D722ACD4F25547C88CD184BCF3726ACC@CSMC.EDU>

I'm pretty techno-liberal, but I agree with Mike.
That being said, one of my younger son's favorite "toys" was a Perkins -> at 
2 or 3 he would sit on the floor & intensely "type" on the keys with the 
same fervor & rhythm as my wife & older son as they brailled away at the 
kitchen table. In retrospect, I do wish someone like Mike would have 
suggested scribbling on a Slate & Stylus however.
My older son started on the BrailleNote in first grade, the younger one in 
kindergarten.
They each enjoyed "scribbling" with JAWS on the computer in preschool.
There are many great alphabet toys, some that are toy laptops with a QWERTY 
keyboard layout - you just add the braille label letters & they become 
readily accessible and are completely age appropriate. They teach letters & 
phonics & easier words in a very age-appropriate manner.
Eric V

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 19:46
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>A slate and stylus!
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 06:02:07 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:02:07 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <D722ACD4F25547C88CD184BCF3726ACC@CSMC.EDU>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<D722ACD4F25547C88CD184BCF3726ACC@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <B5D63C18-772E-4228-BCDE-A80A248EB89C@gopbc.org>

There are even some toys like these from Playkool-- large, magnetic 3- 
D plastic print letters and numbers which have braille made onto them,  
though the number set actually has only the a for 1, b for 2 (etc.)  
portion-- (they left of the number signs).

Here is a link to them on amazon though they show to be out of stock.  
If they're not made anymore, watch for them on ebay.

http://www.amazon.com/Playskool-Magnetic-Letters-Numbers-Pack/dp/B000O5H3DI

Richard




On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:52 AM, DrV wrote:

> I'm pretty techno-liberal, but I agree with Mike.
> That being said, one of my younger son's favorite "toys" was a  
> Perkins -> at 2 or 3 he would sit on the floor & intensely "type" on  
> the keys with the same fervor & rhythm as my wife & older son as  
> they brailled away at the kitchen table. In retrospect, I do wish  
> someone like Mike would have suggested scribbling on a Slate &  
> Stylus however.
> My older son started on the BrailleNote in first grade, the younger  
> one in kindergarten.
> They each enjoyed "scribbling" with JAWS on the computer in preschool.
> There are many great alphabet toys, some that are toy laptops with a  
> QWERTY keyboard layout - you just add the braille label letters &  
> they become readily accessible and are completely age appropriate.  
> They teach letters & phonics & easier words in a very age- 
> appropriate manner.
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 19:46
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> A slate and stylus!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"  
>> <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  
>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to  
>>> say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter,  
>>> and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so  
>>> what assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start  
>>> using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 12:10:45 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:10:45 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><D722ACD4F25547C88CD184BCF3726ACC@CSMC.EDU>
	<B5D63C18-772E-4228-BCDE-A80A248EB89C@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <E668DD3BE9D34C69B6C345BAFDE1679F@7PYZPJ1>

Thanks for this.  All of the print style letters I have seen are sans 
braille, and all of the braille tiles are plane squares or rectangles, with 
raised letters.  That is fine for older children, but letters that are cut 
out, like these are awsum.  Thanks so much.  Off to find a set.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> There are even some toys like these from Playkool-- large, magnetic 3- D 
> plastic print letters and numbers which have braille made onto them, 
> though the number set actually has only the a for 1, b for 2 (etc.) 
> portion-- (they left of the number signs).
>
> Here is a link to them on amazon though they show to be out of stock.  If 
> they're not made anymore, watch for them on ebay.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Playskool-Magnetic-Letters-Numbers-Pack/dp/B000O5H3DI
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:52 AM, DrV wrote:
>
>> I'm pretty techno-liberal, but I agree with Mike.
>> That being said, one of my younger son's favorite "toys" was a 
>>  Perkins -> at 2 or 3 he would sit on the floor & intensely "type" on 
>> the keys with the same fervor & rhythm as my wife & older son as  they 
>> brailled away at the kitchen table. In retrospect, I do wish  someone 
>> like Mike would have suggested scribbling on a Slate &  Stylus however.
>> My older son started on the BrailleNote in first grade, the younger  one 
>> in kindergarten.
>> They each enjoyed "scribbling" with JAWS on the computer in preschool.
>> There are many great alphabet toys, some that are toy laptops with a 
>> QWERTY keyboard layout - you just add the braille label letters &  they 
>> become readily accessible and are completely age appropriate.  They teach 
>> letters & phonics & easier words in a very age- appropriate manner.
>> Eric V
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 19:46
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"  <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>>>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to  say.  A woman said 
>>>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter,  and she wanted her to 
>>>> keep up with her peers in technology, so  what assistive 
>>>> technology/technology is here  -- should she start  using with her 
>>>> child?
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 18 12:45:48 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:45:48 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <4b7ccb87.5744f10a.7585.7b7a@mx.google.com>
References: <017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<4b7ccb87.5744f10a.7585.7b7a@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <FE0397A9B0534986B82B9C7B4024F784@JkTC4D1>

Here here !aside from a slate and stylus a child of any years, provided
developmentally able, should be introduced to as many technologies as
possible. You are right when you say that at most ages toddlers and pre-k
students are introduced and already knowledgeable  about such things as leap
frog pads, key boards and other technologies. A key board can be fashioned
with braille keys or locator dots and the audio component of the computer
can reinforce alpha and numeric appreciation and build confidence in the
same. the same also helps to build  motor skills and other key physical hand
brain coordination's. 

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:09 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Right on Mike. But also, four year old sighted kids are doing technology and
are able to likely run the dvd player, the remote on the tv, the radio or cd
player, dial 911 and play games at least on the computer or Wii. So the
answers are how can she do the same things...what if any access does the
child require, she can learn button placement and keyboard layout and number
pad display layouts...non-visual techniques or touch technique. Maybe one of
the free screenreaders to start exploring? 

You can also recommend our Saturday school to her, every third Saturday of
the month 10am to noon at our center. One this Saturday. We have a couple of
kindergarteners and there will be a separate parent class this time, she can
meet other parents and start to get to know some blind adults and other
blind children.

Email me private Dave if you have questions or want to give her my phone or
cell# or if u already have it, pass it on.

Carrie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:47 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

A slate and stylus!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she had

>a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up with 
>her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
ot.org




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 12:46:49 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:46:49 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>

My phylosophy, for all children, blind or not, is to present them with the 
widest possible range of toys, games and experiencces, and foster what they 
like best.  For instance, my eighteen month old has always loved buttons. 
His favorite toys are our phone, our tellivision remote, and an old 
calculator.  So, we are replacing the old calculator with an old talking 
calculator.  We have taught him to bring us the remote, so that we can take 
the batteries out, then he knows he can go and play with it.  Or, he can 
come and ask for the phone and we will disconnect the hand set so that it is 
inactive and give it to him.  We just can't have him accidentally ordering 
paper view, he once hit random buttons and ordered some adult entertainment. 
rofl Luckily he had also hit the mute button previously, and believe it or 
not, the people who handel the adult programming are very friendly and 
understanding.  The woman who took my call and reversed the charges laughed, 
and told me that her daughter called India once on her cell phone and it 
cost twenty two dollars.  We also can't have him doing that, which is why we 
take the reciever off of our corded phone for him.  He asks for "Mote" and 
"Phone" when he wants to play with these things.  He also loves our talking 
kitchen timer.  So, I found mainstream play cell phone, remote, calculator, 
lap top and chordless looking toys that teach four languages, shapes, 
colors, letters and numbers.  He also loves my cell phone when it is dead as 
well as one of the video game controlers, with it's battery pack taken out. 
At the beginning his thing was to just make as much noise as possible.  Then 
he started to listen for particular sounds he liked, and he would fixate on 
one button at a time.  Then he started exploring the buttons with his 
tungue, then his fingers and toes.  We are finally headed out of the oral 
phase.  Thank god.  *laughs*.  Although, I do know a three year old, whose 
favorite bost right now, other than the usual three year old stuff like, 
potty training, and what he found in his nose this morning, is that he can 
read braille with his tungue.  And, he actually can.  lol  He is sighted 
too, but he knows a through l reliabily, and he loves x and o.  He says they 
look cool.  Jeremy's other favorite thing is paper.  He used to like to tare 
up magazines we gave him.  Now, he likes to crinckle them, and in the last 
month he has started turning pages.  He especially loves print magazines, 
board books with braille and this one old text book that we let him play 
with.  It's a print psychology text and he loves the heft of it, the 
crinckily pages and even the scent and look of it, as he is always looking 
at the smooth reflective surface of the cover, enjoying the new book smell 
by sniffing it, and enjoys the sensation of feeling the edges of all of the 
pages all together when the book is closed.  He isn't ready for spiral bound 
books yet, as he will pull them apart, but, someday.  One thing that is 
important to remember is to let blind kids, low vission and even totals 
scribble with markers, crayons, pencils and paints.  The sensation of finger 
painting is wonderful.  Crayons can be felt a bit and it is also important 
to provide tracing templates for shapes and letters, shapes and numbers, as 
well as coloring book images that have either been reco fused, or adapted 
with wicky stickx.  I would have to say that a slate and styalis is not 
anywhere near the top of my list of priorities.  I will show him one, and if 
he loves it, he can certainly play with it and I will show him how to use 
it.  But, I am more concerned that his verbal skills be top notch, that his 
braille literacy be good as well as his ability to type on a brailler type 
keyboard and a quirty keyboard.  I will also make sure he can write the 
print alphabet in upper and lower case, and his name in cursive, although I 
won't insist on any more than that in script, unless he expresses an 
interest.  I am also not a big fan of the school of thought that an abacus 
is a good way to teach blind kids some beginning math concepts.  That is 
bologni.  An abacus is a good way to teach all kids math concepts.  I have 
used one to help so many sighted kids that I have tutored things like 
carrying in devision and decemil place values.  I don't think that low tech 
is always best.  Technology is part of our society, that is reality.  I do 
think that kids should be given pieces of wood, blocks, cardboard tubing, 
blank paper, pots and pans, jiant cardboard boxes, etc, to enspire their 
imaginations and creativity.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a  bad 
> idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have  the 
> fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be  ready for 
> the whole mirror image concept.
>
> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I 
> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a  braille 
> novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted 
> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time. 
> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like 
> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at 
> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the 
> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling" 
> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an 
> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and 
> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand  and 
> finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.  Many 
> schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use  at home 
> for free once the child is in school.
>
> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all  the 
> options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to  them--  
> at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in  fact, it 
> continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on  what she seems 
> ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of  these things. There 
> is also an entire range of tactile graphics  solutions and manipulatives. 
> You can produce these with pipe cleaners,  and a bottle of glue, or you 
> can use a multi-thousand dollar  thermoform; quite a range of options 
> exists.
>
> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still  uses 
> a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her  computer 
> and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille  and that can 
> be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see  for her is needing 
> to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot  of technology in use by 
> an early age.
>
> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as 
> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this  child 
> runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient  braille 
> reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille  stickers 
> on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,  table, drawer, 
> oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the  child to ask 
> questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"  and later "what do 
> these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use  twin vision books--  
> sighted kids look at letters while parents read  most every time. Blind 
> kids can do the same-- that's why it is best  when adding braille to a 
> print book to always put the braille below  the print-- a sighted reader 
> can still read while small hands are  exploring the braille.
>
> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.  Things 
> like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be  careful that 
> an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten  or a PAC Mate is 
> not learned at the expense of being able to use a  mechanical 
> braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up  all of this 
> child's life, at least from time to time.
>
> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift 
> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct  her 
> towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide  which way 
> she wants to proceed.
>
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   A woman said 
>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  wanted her to 
>> keep up with her peers in technology, so what  assistive 
>> technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  with her 
>> child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 12:51:44 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:51:44 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<2FB490E1CA9246A7AD529057BF714FDF@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <F74F236B8CB14377BE04933D649840C8@7PYZPJ1>

Just FYI.  There is so much technology for infants on up.  There are 
interactive electronic jumpers, bouncers, ceeling projecters, crib mobiles, 
car seat entertainers, rockers, tummy time gyms, etc.  And that is just the 
12 months and under crowd.  There are so many technologies for toddlers. 
Some are valuable, some are stunting and unneccessary, some could go either 
way, depending on how they are used and presented.  It runs a range.  But to 
say that all technology is bad is short sighted and close minded.  To say 
that all technology is benificial is ignorant and limited.  There is always 
a balance.  For fun, if you are ever bored, go check out a toy store and you 
will be surprised at the technologies you find there.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Hello:
>
>     I don't think there is much technology for little kids. Sighted 
> preschoolers have access to computer games and electronic toys. I think 
> some of the LeapFrog stuff can be modified. Intelikeys could be used, but 
> I am not familiar with what is currently out there.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert Jaquiss
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 13:05:04 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:05:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
Message-ID: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>

No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know, 
children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or 
women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, but 
honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular basis. 
Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they were 
not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand and 
sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I 
showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For 
confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list 
emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that I 
know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list 
serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind students, 
and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four 
year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone 
to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a 
braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch. 
Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>A slate and stylus!
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 18 13:51:27 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:51:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <731C412298CF444D93A1EC80CDA77324@JkTC4D1>

I was being diplomatic. But I am here as an educator to say that narrow
minded and generationally corrupted thoughts like using only a slate and
stylus are what is keeping our youth from realizing there fullest potential
and why we still as a community experience unemployment rates which remain
unshifted for decades. Get the child a computer, kids nowadays are using
computers almost out of the womb. Ok not out of the womb, but they are using
key boards and simulated toys which promote technology awareness and skill
development as soon as they are able. Children of all abilities are like
sponges, they soak up as much information during their  toddler and pre-k
years which serves as a foundation for all their future learning
opportunities. Set the bar high, give them more then you yourself think they
can handle and handle it they will. If we as parents and elders have little
or no sense of empowering possibilities for them, they will learn to be
dependent on others and fall into this depressive cycle of SSI and SSDI
dependency and disppair. Power up that computer and set the key board up
with locator dots and let your child investigate the wonders of technology
on their own. It will bode well for them when they actually need to perfect
knowledge and usability  of these key equalizers in their future endeavors.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:05 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know, 
children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or 
women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, but 
honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular basis.

Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they were 
not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand and

sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I 
showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For 
confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list 
emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that I

know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list 
serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind students,

and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four 
year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone

to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a 
braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch. 
Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>A slate and stylus!
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com 


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
ot.org




From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 18 13:53:17 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:53:17 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <F74F236B8CB14377BE04933D649840C8@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><2FB490E1CA9246A7AD529057BF714FDF@D3DTZP41>
	<F74F236B8CB14377BE04933D649840C8@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <03644DA025754A69B7DB5FBAC6FDAB24@JkTC4D1>

However, to not include technologies in these formative years, puts children
at a serious disadvantage.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:52 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Just FYI.  There is so much technology for infants on up.  There are 
interactive electronic jumpers, bouncers, ceeling projecters, crib mobiles, 
car seat entertainers, rockers, tummy time gyms, etc.  And that is just the 
12 months and under crowd.  There are so many technologies for toddlers. 
Some are valuable, some are stunting and unneccessary, some could go either 
way, depending on how they are used and presented.  It runs a range.  But to

say that all technology is bad is short sighted and close minded.  To say 
that all technology is benificial is ignorant and limited.  There is always 
a balance.  For fun, if you are ever bored, go check out a toy store and you

will be surprised at the technologies you find there.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Hello:
>
>     I don't think there is much technology for little kids. Sighted 
> preschoolers have access to computer games and electronic toys. I think 
> some of the LeapFrog stuff can be modified. Intelikeys could be used, but 
> I am not familiar with what is currently out there.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert Jaquiss
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthli
nk.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com 


_______________________________________________
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blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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ot.org




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 13:52:55 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:52:55 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <DC2FD8D1-A716-4E73-9B72-0E0B662E2F37@gopbc.org>

I actually know quite a number of blind people adults who carry these  
around like a note pad. They are a fine solution to record a few words  
or, a phone number, or even a short list.

They are slow and inconvenient, but they never lock up and fail to  
work, their batteries don't die and they don't require some involved  
startup procedure to get them working or require you to get into "the  
right document", etc. before you can use them.

A slate and stylus are tools in the arsenal, so to speak. I don't  
think they are often the best solution for complex needs, but I would  
not discount their use entirely. There is nothing wrong with making  
them available for a child. Several of our 7-year-olds sighted friends/ 
classmates have their own slates and styli and they actually use them  
to write notes to Kendra when they do not have access to  
braillewriters, so there are many uses for them indeed.

Richard



On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Heather wrote:

> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I  
> know, children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally  
> challenged, men or women use those anymore.  Many own them, and  
> could use them in a pinch, but honestly, no one uses them as a main  
> means of writing or on a regular basis. Some people in the fifty or  
> older set still rely on them, because they were not able to keep up  
> with the changing technology, which I can understand and sympathize  
> with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I showed  
> her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For  
> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list,  
> list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could  
> honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind  
> people, and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for  
> blind parents and one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer  
> was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four year old would best  
> be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone to call his  
> mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a braille  
> note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.  
> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> A slate and stylus!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"  
>> <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  
>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to  
>>> say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter,  
>>> and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so  
>>> what assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start  
>>> using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org  Thu Feb 18 14:01:18 2010
From: sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org (Susan Harper)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:01:18 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <f6a56b5c1002180601m20c8d42dq2aeb9c2c517f0288@mail.gmail.com>

   Personally I prefer old fashioned manipulative's.  I have twin three and
a half year olds.  We use many of the usual toys.  Some things I have
adapted.  There is a pig by Fisher Price that you put the coins in and it
gives musical feed back or counting feed back.  I also have found the hooked
on phonics hand held toys helpful in developing vocabulary with auditory
feed back.  I find my son likes the cause and effect toys that give some
type of feed back.  I use the Leap Frog toys.  Whenever possible I add the
Braille words or letters.  When you are looking to add words or letters,
make sure there is sufficient room on the game or toy to do so before
purchasing.  My son has a Perkins Brailler, which at this point he doesn't
use much, but I do.  He likes a kitchen set that I bought by Little Tykes
that makes realistic sounds when pots are put on the stove or he can push
the buttons to the microwave.  He likes the play dishes, fruits and
vegetable, and especially likes to play with water.  I also like the
magnetic letters with the Braille letters on them too.  We use these on the
refrigerator.

    I also use on a daily basis, magic beans.  This is something I have used
for years.  I use this to teach pincer grasp for later use with fine motor
skills.  I use a large grated cheese container with one flip up side that
has hole and the other that opens half way.  We use red kidney beans and put
them into the hole.  Of course this requires supervision due to the choking
hazard posed by the beans.  He just loves this.   I don't know why, but he
does.  We can count as we do this and when we are done we have a shaker we
can use set to music.  He likes pegs, stacking blocks (I find that he does
better with the ones that have some way to connect as it provides better
motivation.  He can stack higher and longer.), and single piece puzzles
(multiple piece puzzles at this point are confusing) that he can feel and
find the spot it goes in.

    My son loves music.  We have all types from lively to classic.  For
riding in the RV, he has a Fisher Price CD player (has anti-skip built in,
so good in vehicles), for which I purchased Fisher Price Head phones that
has a safety feature to protect hearing.  No matter how loud the CD player
is cranked, the head phones will only allow a safe level of sound.  So when
the others are watching videos traveling, he is listening to music or
stories.  I blissfully am able to have a conversation with my husband in the
front.

     Basically any toy that other 4 year olds like is a good thing, but may
need a little adaptation.  So don't rule out the old fashioned stuff too
quick.  I am sure there are more things I didn't mention than I did.

     Don't forget books.  Home made ones sometimes are the best.  Books with
repetitive and rhymes are excellent.

     Hope this helps!
Blessings,
Sue H.


On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:

> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
> with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she had
> a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up with
> her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is there
>  -- should she start using with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
>


From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 15:00:02 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:00:02 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org>

I just re-read Dave's question.

I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his  
original question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical  
vision, are most likely seeing technology constantly. It will take a  
lot more than only a slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort of  
begs the question as to what in particular she wants to keep up with  
the most, but obviously there will need to be braille and presumably a  
cane introduced if they are not already in use. (I assume the child is  
able to travel typically.) My point being not to overlook the obvious--

If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of  
congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might be an  
mp3 player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons  
(as in the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more extreme,  
like a victor reader.

If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described videos  
or even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her  
own. The technology in this case might be the adapted media itself or  
simply an accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with  
tactile tape and avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids are on  
the computer, it might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on and  
on.

I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I posted  
to get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm

There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas  
(please post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with  
peers across the board in technology is going to involve long-term  
exposure to many different adaptations and technology solutions  
because that is what all the other kids have around themselves  
constantly...

Richard




On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:

> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  
> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   
> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  
> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what  
> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  
> with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Thu Feb 18 14:32:01 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:32:01 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <f6a56b5c1002180601m20c8d42dq2aeb9c2c517f0288@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<f6a56b5c1002180601m20c8d42dq2aeb9c2c517f0288@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <853288.10636.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Sounds like fun at your house!
Carol

At 09:01 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>    Personally I prefer old fashioned manipulative's.  I have twin three and
>a half year olds.  We use many of the usual toys.  Some things I have
>adapted.  There is a pig by Fisher Price that you put the coins in and it
>gives musical feed back or counting feed back.  I also have found the hooked
>on phonics hand held toys helpful in developing vocabulary with auditory
>feed back.  I find my son likes the cause and effect toys that give some
>type of feed back.  I use the Leap Frog toys.  Whenever possible I add the
>Braille words or letters.  When you are looking to add words or letters,
>make sure there is sufficient room on the game or toy to do so before
>purchasing.  My son has a Perkins Brailler, which at this point he doesn't
>use much, but I do.  He likes a kitchen set that I bought by Little Tykes
>that makes realistic sounds when pots are put on the stove or he can push
>the buttons to the microwave.  He likes the play dishes, fruits and
>vegetable, and especially likes to play with water.  I also like the
>magnetic letters with the Braille letters on them too.  We use these on the
>refrigerator.
>
>     I also use on a daily basis, magic beans.  This is something I have used
>for years.  I use this to teach pincer grasp for later use with fine motor
>skills.  I use a large grated cheese container with one flip up side that
>has hole and the other that opens half way.  We use red kidney beans and put
>them into the hole.  Of course this requires supervision due to the choking
>hazard posed by the beans.  He just loves this.   I don't know why, but he
>does.  We can count as we do this and when we are done we have a shaker we
>can use set to music.  He likes pegs, stacking blocks (I find that he does
>better with the ones that have some way to connect as it provides better
>motivation.  He can stack higher and longer.), and single piece puzzles
>(multiple piece puzzles at this point are confusing) that he can feel and
>find the spot it goes in.
>
>     My son loves music.  We have all types from lively to classic.  For
>riding in the RV, he has a Fisher Price CD player (has anti-skip built in,
>so good in vehicles), for which I purchased Fisher Price Head phones that
>has a safety feature to protect hearing.  No matter how loud the CD player
>is cranked, the head phones will only allow a safe level of sound.  So when
>the others are watching videos traveling, he is listening to music or
>stories.  I blissfully am able to have a conversation with my husband in the
>front.
>
>      Basically any toy that other 4 year olds like is a good thing, but may
>need a little adaptation.  So don't rule out the old fashioned stuff too
>quick.  I am sure there are more things I didn't mention than I did.
>
>      Don't forget books.  Home made ones sometimes are the best.  Books with
>repetitive and rhymes are excellent.
>
>      Hope this helps!
>Blessings,
>Sue H.
>
>
>On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>
> > I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
> > with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she had
> > a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up with
> > her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is there
> >  -- should she start using with her child?
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindkid mailing list
> > blindkid at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindkid:
> >
> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
> >
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc 





From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 18 15:18:33 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:18:33 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <584614E0CEB54763AADAB1AD3852166B@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     I carry a slate in my backpack all the time in case I need to write a 
quick note. My BrailleNote fills up a backpack and it gets heavy after a 
while. I personally would introduce a brailler before a slate. You can feel 
the braille as it is written and I think it makes more sense to little ones 
to read from left to right and write from left to right just like their 
sighted peers. Extension keys are available for a Perkins for hands not 
strong enough to press the keys. One thing about a slate is that the stylus 
does have a sharp point and sharp pointed things are not good for small 
children. If you do expose a child to a slate, do so with care.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss





From thea at doodledoo.com  Thu Feb 18 15:26:03 2010
From: thea at doodledoo.com (Thea Eaton)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:26:03 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <004601cab0ae$b3a4f1d0$1aeed570$@com>

We make computer games and websites accessible for children, such as this
website: http://www.dontmesswithtexas.org/litterforce/
(Unfortunately, I just noticed that the owners of this site have added new
material, and none of the self-voicing audio is coming up right now. But
children are supposed to be able to tab and press Enter to navigate this
website, and the content is supposed to be self-voicing.)

We are working on a series of educational self-voicing games for a
touchscreen such as the iPad for younger children with a visual impairment,
such as memory games, whack-a-mole games and others. We are also working on
a website for children that can be used as a training ground for beginning
screen reader users with all Flash games that are accessible to screen
readers as well. If you have any suggestions for games or activities to be
added to this site, let us know!

We will announce on our website when these will roll out. You can also fan
us on facebook for the latest news or subscribe to our twitter feed.

Thea Eaton
DoodleDoo
www.doodledoo.com   
Where early birds learn.
1-888-42 DOODLE

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:47 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

My phylosophy, for all children, blind or not, is to present them with the 
widest possible range of toys, games and experiencces, and foster what they 
like best.  For instance, my eighteen month old has always loved buttons. 
His favorite toys are our phone, our tellivision remote, and an old 
calculator.  So, we are replacing the old calculator with an old talking 
calculator.  We have taught him to bring us the remote, so that we can take 
the batteries out, then he knows he can go and play with it.  Or, he can 
come and ask for the phone and we will disconnect the hand set so that it is

inactive and give it to him.  We just can't have him accidentally ordering 
paper view, he once hit random buttons and ordered some adult entertainment.

rofl Luckily he had also hit the mute button previously, and believe it or 
not, the people who handel the adult programming are very friendly and 
understanding.  The woman who took my call and reversed the charges laughed,

and told me that her daughter called India once on her cell phone and it 
cost twenty two dollars.  We also can't have him doing that, which is why we

take the reciever off of our corded phone for him.  He asks for "Mote" and 
"Phone" when he wants to play with these things.  He also loves our talking 
kitchen timer.  So, I found mainstream play cell phone, remote, calculator, 
lap top and chordless looking toys that teach four languages, shapes, 
colors, letters and numbers.  He also loves my cell phone when it is dead as

well as one of the video game controlers, with it's battery pack taken out. 
At the beginning his thing was to just make as much noise as possible.  Then

he started to listen for particular sounds he liked, and he would fixate on 
one button at a time.  Then he started exploring the buttons with his 
tungue, then his fingers and toes.  We are finally headed out of the oral 
phase.  Thank god.  *laughs*.  Although, I do know a three year old, whose 
favorite bost right now, other than the usual three year old stuff like, 
potty training, and what he found in his nose this morning, is that he can 
read braille with his tungue.  And, he actually can.  lol  He is sighted 
too, but he knows a through l reliabily, and he loves x and o.  He says they

look cool.  Jeremy's other favorite thing is paper.  He used to like to tare

up magazines we gave him.  Now, he likes to crinckle them, and in the last 
month he has started turning pages.  He especially loves print magazines, 
board books with braille and this one old text book that we let him play 
with.  It's a print psychology text and he loves the heft of it, the 
crinckily pages and even the scent and look of it, as he is always looking 
at the smooth reflective surface of the cover, enjoying the new book smell 
by sniffing it, and enjoys the sensation of feeling the edges of all of the 
pages all together when the book is closed.  He isn't ready for spiral bound

books yet, as he will pull them apart, but, someday.  One thing that is 
important to remember is to let blind kids, low vission and even totals 
scribble with markers, crayons, pencils and paints.  The sensation of finger

painting is wonderful.  Crayons can be felt a bit and it is also important 
to provide tracing templates for shapes and letters, shapes and numbers, as 
well as coloring book images that have either been reco fused, or adapted 
with wicky stickx.  I would have to say that a slate and styalis is not 
anywhere near the top of my list of priorities.  I will show him one, and if

he loves it, he can certainly play with it and I will show him how to use 
it.  But, I am more concerned that his verbal skills be top notch, that his 
braille literacy be good as well as his ability to type on a brailler type 
keyboard and a quirty keyboard.  I will also make sure he can write the 
print alphabet in upper and lower case, and his name in cursive, although I 
won't insist on any more than that in script, unless he expresses an 
interest.  I am also not a big fan of the school of thought that an abacus 
is a good way to teach blind kids some beginning math concepts.  That is 
bologni.  An abacus is a good way to teach all kids math concepts.  I have 
used one to help so many sighted kids that I have tutored things like 
carrying in devision and decemil place values.  I don't think that low tech 
is always best.  Technology is part of our society, that is reality.  I do 
think that kids should be given pieces of wood, blocks, cardboard tubing, 
blank paper, pots and pans, jiant cardboard boxes, etc, to enspire their 
imaginations and creativity.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a  bad 
> idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have  the 
> fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be  ready for

> the whole mirror image concept.
>
> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I 
> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a  braille

> novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted 
> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time. 
> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like 
> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at 
> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the 
> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling" 
> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an 
> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and 
> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand  and 
> finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.  Many 
> schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use  at home

> for free once the child is in school.
>
> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all  the 
> options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to  them--  
> at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in  fact, it 
> continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on  what she seems

> ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of  these things. There 
> is also an entire range of tactile graphics  solutions and manipulatives. 
> You can produce these with pipe cleaners,  and a bottle of glue, or you 
> can use a multi-thousand dollar  thermoform; quite a range of options 
> exists.
>
> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still  uses

> a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her  computer 
> and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille  and that can 
> be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see  for her is needing

> to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot  of technology in use by

> an early age.
>
> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as 
> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this  child 
> runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient  braille 
> reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille  stickers 
> on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,  table, drawer, 
> oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the  child to ask 
> questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"  and later "what do

> these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use  twin vision books--  
> sighted kids look at letters while parents read  most every time. Blind 
> kids can do the same-- that's why it is best  when adding braille to a 
> print book to always put the braille below  the print-- a sighted reader 
> can still read while small hands are  exploring the braille.
>
> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.  Things

> like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be  careful that

> an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten  or a PAC Mate is

> not learned at the expense of being able to use a  mechanical 
> braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up  all of this 
> child's life, at least from time to time.
>
> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift 
> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct  her 
> towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide  which way

> she wants to proceed.
>
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   A woman said 
>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  wanted her to 
>> keep up with her peers in technology, so what  assistive 
>> technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  with her 
>> child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com
> 


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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om




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 15:27:39 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:27:39 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <60C126DD-2F1F-45D1-8DDF-13773D0AF222@gopbc.org>

>   I am also not a big fan of the school of thought that an abacus is  
> a good way to teach blind kids some beginning math concepts.  That  
> is bologni.  An abacus is a good way to teach all kids math concepts.

I'm not quite certain I follow this point-- an abacus is an excellent  
tool to teach blind kids certain math concepts from basic to advanced  
and an excellent substitution (when appropriately added to IEP's) for  
scratch paper and pencil in testing, especially certain kinds of  
standardized testing. I know this because my daughter has been using  
one effectively and efficiently since about age three; it works for  
her and she is blind, so it is clearly a workable solution at least in  
some cases. I find it to be an excellent bridge between manipulatives  
and abstract math concepts.

Sometimes BrailleNotes (and the like) are not allowed for testing  
because auto calculations cannot be properly disabled, at least not  
beyond being potentially re-enabled by a student and giving the blind  
student a possible "unfair advantage" in testing. In effect, an  
unscrupulous student could "sneak" a calculator into a testing  
situation that way. An abacus can't be used for auto-anything and  
there can be no question about that in a testing situation. It also  
(like the slate & stylus) works all the time-- no lock-ups, no dead  
batteries.

Were you suggesting that an abacus is not only good for blind kids but  
is potentially a good tool for sighted students as well? Again, a big  
feature that makes it more appropriate for blind kids is that while  
sighted kids can use a paper and pencil in a testing situation, that  
is not an option for blind kids, but if you would have all kids be  
given an abacus at testing time I doubt you'd find many people against  
that option; I certainly approve.



From blindchildren at verizon.net  Thu Feb 18 15:46:13 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:46:13 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <DC2FD8D1-A716-4E73-9B72-0E0B662E2F37@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
	<DC2FD8D1-A716-4E73-9B72-0E0B662E2F37@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <916681.83128.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I agree that we should not toss the slate and stylus.  Serena had at 
least two experiences--both in high school and in college--when her 
technology broke down during class. She pulled out the slate and some 
paper and was able to continue taking notes.  She also uses it to 
mark print papers, such as handouts and now, her bank statements.  It 
may be generational, as far as extensive use of slate and stylus 
goes, but those who did grow up using them are VERY fast on them, 
just as kids growing up with BrailleNotes are very fast on those.
Carol

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc

At 08:52 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>I actually know quite a number of blind people adults who carry these
>around like a note pad. They are a fine solution to record a few words
>or, a phone number, or even a short list.
>
>They are slow and inconvenient, but they never lock up and fail to
>work, their batteries don't die and they don't require some involved
>startup procedure to get them working or require you to get into "the
>right document", etc. before you can use them.
>
>A slate and stylus are tools in the arsenal, so to speak. I don't
>think they are often the best solution for complex needs, but I would
>not discount their use entirely. There is nothing wrong with making
>them available for a child. Several of our 7-year-olds sighted 
>friends/ classmates have their own slates and styli and they 
>actually use them
>to write notes to Kendra when they do not have access to
>braillewriters, so there are many uses for them indeed.
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Heather wrote:
>
>>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I
>>know, children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally
>>challenged, men or women use those anymore.  Many own them, and
>>could use them in a pinch, but honestly, no one uses them as a main
>>means of writing or on a regular basis. Some people in the fifty or
>>older set still rely on them, because they were not able to keep up
>>with the changing technology, which I can understand and sympathize
>>with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I showed
>>her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For
>>confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list,
>>list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could
>>honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind
>>people, and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for
>>blind parents and one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer
>>was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four year old would best
>>be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone to call his
>>mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a braille
>>note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.
>>Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org >
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"
>>><dandrews at visi.com>
>>>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to
>>>>say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter,
>>>>and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so
>>>>what assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start
>>>>using with her child?
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindkid:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 15:46:21 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:46:21 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <2FB490E1CA9246A7AD529057BF714FDF@D3DTZP41>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<2FB490E1CA9246A7AD529057BF714FDF@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <D05A446A-EEE8-4D0B-ACC7-960FF5643798@gopbc.org>

I don't know if you are around young kids a lot or not. My (sighted)  
son turns four in a few days. He is very much into things like  
videos-- DVD's and Video Tapes. He also likes interactive computer  
stories a lot and given the chance would clearly like to be doing a  
lot more with a variety of (age appropriate) web sites. At the same  
age, his (blind) sister was heavily interested in audio stories and  
musical recordings. Many kids his age are all about video games. We  
tend to keep that to a minimum but that would be something else to try  
and adapt potentially.

My son also loves books, especially books with pictures. So far I  
think nobody has mentioned the variety of ways to use tactile pictures  
either. That may seem trivial but was EXTREMELY important to our  
daughter for several years starting around age three and she still  
likes tactile graphics at age seven. That is a whole different topic  
of adaptation but clearly has applications for kids and adults too.

Today's sighted kids's technology interests run the gamut, so too may  
the interests of blind children so there is potentially a wide variety  
of things to adapt; it is a broad topic.

Richard



On Feb 17, 2010, at 11:43 PM, Robert Jaquiss wrote:

> Hello:
>
>    I don't think there is much technology for little kids. Sighted  
> preschoolers have access to computer games and electronic toys. I  
> think some of the LeapFrog stuff can be modified. Intelikeys could  
> be used, but I am not familiar with what is currently out there.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert Jaquiss
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  
>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to  
>> say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter,  
>> and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what  
>> assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start using  
>> with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 15:48:22 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:48:22 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] SSDI/SSI, was Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
	<731C412298CF444D93A1EC80CDA77324@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <7B3D5CBBE54945E9909F1829AD2596A0@7PYZPJ1>

Here here.  One thing, and one thing only.  To the SSI and SSD.  My mother 
recieves SSD and I recieve a portion of that, and I am living off of that 
and FAFSA so that I can get an education, and if I fail despite my good 
education and best efforts to find a job that pays adequately I will, with 
no shame recieve SSDI to supplement what I earn.  My mother works her tail 
off, she has a masters degree in education with a concintration in computer 
sciences.  This town is dominated by the opressive pressence of ABVI, the 
Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired, and for a while, when I was 
very small, the best job my educated, intelligent, resourceful mom could get 
was packing sticky note pads in boxes or stripping film off of canisters at 
ABVI.  It is sick.  She has worked as a switchboard operater at a huge 
hotel, an independent living skills coordinator at the center for disability 
rights, an indepentent skills educator and supervisor of peer advocates at 
the riegional center for independent living, and she is now working at a 
call center for Healthy New York.  I am a hard working, driven individual 
with some college and a regents deploma with advanced designation from high 
school and my jobs have included sewing pants in a *cringe* sheltered work 
shop, run by ABVI, working as a clerk in a goodwill store, run by ABVI and 
doing interrogations transcription for OMRDD, the office of mental 
retardation and developmental disabilities.  Those were all summer jobs 
while attending high school or college.  There are some individuals who 
totally mootch off of the system, settle for less, have no lives and little 
money and it is their own fault.  But there are many men and women doing 
their best who still do not get desent jobs.  I know that it is frustrating 
to see some blind people who sit at home all day and are content to do so, 
but just be sure to bare in mind people like my mother and I.  Those blind 
people who become lawyers and colege professors and so on are not the norm. 
They should be, and some day they will be, but it is just important to 
remember that many people who are unemployed or underemployed are no worse, 
no less motivated, no less intelligent than the blind lawyers and 
professors, they just happened to not be in the right places at the right 
times, to meet up with the right employers and open-minded people who gave 
those more successful people a chance.  I am raising my children to work 
like crazy, to get ahead, to make the best of their lives, to be successful, 
but I am also raising them with the self knowledge and selfesteme so that, 
if they do not succeed as much as they deserve, because of the way society 
is, that they can find other things in their lives to be happy about, and so 
that they will not beat themselves up for things beyond their control.  Have 
no fear though, I am not raising them to blame others for their lack of 
effort.  If they fail because they did not try, I will not coddle them, but 
if something unfair and beyond their control keeps them down, they will also 
be helped to cope with that and move beyond it to try again.  I know I am 
ranting, but I am sick of getting dirty looks and hearing snide comments 
when people find out that I am on SSD.  There is no shame in it, especially 
because SSD is based on your work record, your past effort.  SSI, is just a 
freeby, unless we are talking about blind college students, because they 
have not yet had a chanse to succeed or fail.  A forty year old man, who has 
no spouse, no children, no life, no job, who never completed his education 
and is on SSI?  Yeah, loser, no doubt, but just be aware that SSDI does not 
equal lower effort or lower class in all cases.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I was being diplomatic. But I am here as an educator to say that narrow
> minded and generationally corrupted thoughts like using only a slate and
> stylus are what is keeping our youth from realizing there fullest 
> potential
> and why we still as a community experience unemployment rates which remain
> unshifted for decades. Get the child a computer, kids nowadays are using
> computers almost out of the womb. Ok not out of the womb, but they are 
> using
> key boards and simulated toys which promote technology awareness and skill
> development as soon as they are able. Children of all abilities are like
> sponges, they soak up as much information during their  toddler and pre-k
> years which serves as a foundation for all their future learning
> opportunities. Set the bar high, give them more then you yourself think 
> they
> can handle and handle it they will. If we as parents and elders have 
> little
> or no sense of empowering possibilities for them, they will learn to be
> dependent on others and fall into this depressive cycle of SSI and SSDI
> dependency and disppair. Power up that computer and set the key board up
> with locator dots and let your child investigate the wonders of technology
> on their own. It will bode well for them when they actually need to 
> perfect
> knowledge and usability  of these key equalizers in their future 
> endeavors.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:05 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know,
> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or
> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, 
> but
> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular 
> basis.
>
> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they 
> were
> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand 
> and
>
> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I
> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For
> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list
> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that 
> I
>
> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list
> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
> students,
>
> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four
> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home 
> phone
>
> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a
> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.
> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>A slate and stylus!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
>>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she
>>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up
>>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is
>>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
> er.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> 




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Thu Feb 18 15:49:59 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:49:59 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <893653.45268.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi Richard,

Love the gopbc technology site!  Maybe add coloring screens and color 
identifiers?

Carol

At 10:00 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>I just re-read Dave's question.
>
>I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his
>original question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical
>vision, are most likely seeing technology constantly. It will take a
>lot more than only a slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort of
>begs the question as to what in particular she wants to keep up with
>the most, but obviously there will need to be braille and presumably a
>cane introduced if they are not already in use. (I assume the child is
>able to travel typically.) My point being not to overlook the obvious--
>
>If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of
>congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might be an
>mp3 player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons
>(as in the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more extreme,
>like a victor reader.
>
>If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described videos
>or even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her
>own. The technology in this case might be the adapted media itself or
>simply an accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with
>tactile tape and avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids are on
>the computer, it might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on and
>on.
>
>I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I posted
>to get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas
>(please post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with
>peers across the board in technology is going to involve long-term
>exposure to many different adaptations and technology solutions
>because that is what all the other kids have around themselves
>constantly...
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>with her child?
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc 





From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 15:59:55 2010
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:59:55 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com>

Dear Heather,
I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper Braille,
neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or pencil. I know
hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties, thirties
and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it, own
Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find times on
a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions down in
interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has more
than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at another
place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the small slate
and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes only
independent option. All these people only turn to this because they have
proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that those who do
not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use. Because you
do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that such a
strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I might add
who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them to some
degree of proficiency.

As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure out the
slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given thousands of
attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and making marks.
Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a bad idea
to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble the
teacher might feel and is transferred. 

Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There is no
reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is true that
I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and the
slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on the
Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate first
(even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and then add
the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the slate. It is
indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate "in"
these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often "easier"
at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to accept the
slate the longer you wait.

I have known several blind students (including an international student age
16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never did like
the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a pen. You
use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.

The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength further
for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken to learn
to write print as well.

Sincerely,
Carrie Gilmer

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know, 
children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or 
women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, but 
honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular basis.

Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they were 
not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand and

sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I 
showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For 
confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list 
emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that I

know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list 
serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind students,

and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four 
year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone

to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a 
braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch. 
Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>A slate and stylus!
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com 


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 16:15:56 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:15:56 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <916681.83128.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
	<DC2FD8D1-A716-4E73-9B72-0E0B662E2F37@gopbc.org>
	<916681.83128.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CD428FC4-5A94-424D-9BD8-1CF733620B68@gopbc.org>

Many blind people won't travel too far from home without bringing  
along a spare cane. I agree with their bringing a spare cane; makes  
complete sense. So why not always have a backup to write?

Imagine that you are blind and 1000 miles from home and you'll be  
speaking at a convention. Your presentation is prepared and on your  
PAC Mate, only your PAC Mate goes missing; stolen. Now what do you do?  
What would a sighted person do? Write down all you can and do the best  
you can, right? But you have no PAC Mate and you're 1000 miles from  
home. Ideally, you might grab a nearby Perkins Braillewriter and  
braille out some notes, but again, you're across the country and there  
may be no Braillewriter around; they are hard to keep in your carry on  
luggage as a backup writing solution, but a slate and stylus fit  
nicely. That is a true story-- happened to a friend of mine.

We tend to mark loose things more with a Perkins, but the slate and  
stylus would make more sense in many cases and sometimes it would be  
the only practical solution, like when the paper is bound, for  
example. We just need to get better at brailing in reverse from the  
back!

Richard


On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:

> I agree that we should not toss the slate and stylus.  Serena had at  
> least two experiences--both in high school and in college--when her  
> technology broke down during class. She pulled out the slate and  
> some paper and was able to continue taking notes.  She also uses it  
> to mark print papers, such as handouts and now, her bank  
> statements.  It may be generational, as far as extensive use of  
> slate and stylus goes, but those who did grow up using them are VERY  
> fast on them, just as kids growing up with BrailleNotes are very  
> fast on those.
> Carol
>
> Carol Castellano, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 973-377-0976
> carol_castellano at verizon.net
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> At 08:52 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>> I actually know quite a number of blind people adults who carry these
>> around like a note pad. They are a fine solution to record a few  
>> words
>> or, a phone number, or even a short list.
>>
>> They are slow and inconvenient, but they never lock up and fail to
>> work, their batteries don't die and they don't require some involved
>> startup procedure to get them working or require you to get into "the
>> right document", etc. before you can use them.
>>
>> A slate and stylus are tools in the arsenal, so to speak. I don't
>> think they are often the best solution for complex needs, but I would
>> not discount their use entirely. There is nothing wrong with making
>> them available for a child. Several of our 7-year-olds sighted  
>> friends/ classmates have their own slates and styli and they  
>> actually use them
>> to write notes to Kendra when they do not have access to
>> braillewriters, so there are many uses for them indeed.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Heather wrote:
>>
>>> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I
>>> know, children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally
>>> challenged, men or women use those anymore.  Many own them, and
>>> could use them in a pinch, but honestly, no one uses them as a main
>>> means of writing or on a regular basis. Some people in the fifty or
>>> older set still rely on them, because they were not able to keep up
>>> with the changing technology, which I can understand and sympathize
>>> with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I showed
>>> her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For
>>> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list,
>>> list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could
>>> honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind
>>> people, and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for
>>> blind parents and one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer
>>> was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four year old would best
>>> be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone to call his
>>> mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a braille
>>> note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.
>>> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>>> children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org >
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"
>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to
>>>>> say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter,
>>>>> and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so
>>>>> what assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start
>>>>> using with her child?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
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From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Thu Feb 18 16:23:05 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:23:05 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
Message-ID: <auto-000018347550@mailback2.g2host.com>

I must respectfully disagree with you on this while acknowledging that times do change.  When sighted people stop 
using a pencil, we should stop using the slate and stylus.  Too many blind people are 
helpless to write down the simplest information when their technology fails.  i've seen blind people keep everyone 
waiting to write down someone's phone number while they deal with something unexpected with their technology.  If 
we're going to compete, we need to have options, and the slate and stylus is still one.  I'm not saying it is as important as 
it once was, but to write it off is premature.  Slate and stylus and modern technology are not mutually exclusive.  For a 
number of reasons, I don't know if it is right for a four-year-old necessarily, but you are painting this with a pretty broad 
brush and devaluing the experience of many successful blind peopl who are over fifty and are, regardless of your 
comments, keeping up with technology.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:05:04 -0500, Heather wrote:

>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know, 
>children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or 
>women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, but 
>honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular basis. 
>Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they were 
>not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand and 
>sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I 
>showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For 
>confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list 
>emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that I 
>know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list 
>serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind students, 
>and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four 
>year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone 
>to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a 
>braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch. 
>Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>>A slate and stylus!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 


>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com










From seacknit at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 16:40:36 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:40:36 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <E668DD3BE9D34C69B6C345BAFDE1679F@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><D722ACD4F25547C88CD184BCF3726ACC@CSMC.EDU><B5D63C18-772E-4228-BCDE-A80A248EB89C@gopbc.org>
	<E668DD3BE9D34C69B6C345BAFDE1679F@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <C655D8FD7D5D4AD4938F96DF1C404A8B@OwnerPC>

I bought a set on letters and numbers from the Hasbro website a while back 
but they don't seem to have them any more.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Thanks for this.  All of the print style letters I have seen are sans 
> braille, and all of the braille tiles are plane squares or rectangles, 
> with raised letters.  That is fine for older children, but letters that 
> are cut out, like these are awsum.  Thanks so much.  Off to find a set.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> There are even some toys like these from Playkool-- large, magnetic 3- D 
>> plastic print letters and numbers which have braille made onto them, 
>> though the number set actually has only the a for 1, b for 2 (etc.) 
>> portion-- (they left of the number signs).
>>
>> Here is a link to them on amazon though they show to be out of stock.  If 
>> they're not made anymore, watch for them on ebay.
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Playskool-Magnetic-Letters-Numbers-Pack/dp/B000O5H3DI
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:52 AM, DrV wrote:
>>
>>> I'm pretty techno-liberal, but I agree with Mike.
>>> That being said, one of my younger son's favorite "toys" was a 
>>> Perkins -> at 2 or 3 he would sit on the floor & intensely "type" on the 
>>> keys with the same fervor & rhythm as my wife & older son as  they 
>>> brailled away at the kitchen table. In retrospect, I do wish  someone 
>>> like Mike would have suggested scribbling on a Slate &  Stylus however.
>>> My older son started on the BrailleNote in first grade, the younger  one 
>>> in kindergarten.
>>> They each enjoyed "scribbling" with JAWS on the computer in preschool.
>>> There are many great alphabet toys, some that are toy laptops with a 
>>> QWERTY keyboard layout - you just add the braille label letters &  they 
>>> become readily accessible and are completely age appropriate.  They 
>>> teach letters & phonics & easier words in a very age- appropriate 
>>> manner.
>>> Eric V
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> >
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 19:46
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"  <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my 
>>>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to  say. 
>>>>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter,  and she 
>>>>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so  what assistive 
>>>>> technology/technology is here  -- should she start  using with her 
>>>>> child?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
> 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 18 17:17:25 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:17:25 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com>
References: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
	<4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <3DD9965C4F424064880DED59473A8D8D@JkTC4D1>

I never got that  Heather did not support the introduction or use of a slate
and stylus, just that in this technology age, as I understood the question
as posed   technologies are key to introduce to children as early as
possible.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:00 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Dear Heather,
I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper Braille,
neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or pencil. I know
hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties, thirties
and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it, own
Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find times on
a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions down in
interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has more
than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at another
place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the small slate
and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes only
independent option. All these people only turn to this because they have
proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that those who do
not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use. Because you
do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that such a
strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I might add
who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them to some
degree of proficiency.

As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure out the
slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given thousands of
attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and making marks.
Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a bad idea
to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble the
teacher might feel and is transferred. 

Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There is no
reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is true that
I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and the
slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on the
Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate first
(even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and then add
the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the slate. It is
indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate "in"
these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often "easier"
at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to accept the
slate the longer you wait.

I have known several blind students (including an international student age
16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never did like
the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a pen. You
use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.

The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength further
for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken to learn
to write print as well.

Sincerely,
Carrie Gilmer

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know, 
children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or 
women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, but 
honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular basis.

Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they were 
not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand and

sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I 
showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For 
confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list 
emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that I

know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list 
serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind students,

and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four 
year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone

to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a 
braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch. 
Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>A slate and stylus!
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is 
>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is 
>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com 


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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com


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blindkid:
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ot.org




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 17:21:25 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:21:25 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <893653.45268.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org>
	<893653.45268.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <08E077F6-18B2-4B19-BC18-76FD67F34EA6@gopbc.org>

Absolutely-- I have been wanting to brainstorm and add as many other  
things as anyone can come up with; all suggestions are welcome.

The screens should be easy enough--

What sort of color identifiers are you thinking of? I recall some  
tactile color swatches with different textures but I cannot recall the  
particulars.

Richard


On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Love the gopbc technology site!  Maybe add coloring screens and  
> color identifiers?
>
> Carol
>
> At 10:00 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>> I just re-read Dave's question.
>>
>> I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his
>> original question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical
>> vision, are most likely seeing technology constantly. It will take a
>> lot more than only a slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort  
>> of
>> begs the question as to what in particular she wants to keep up with
>> the most, but obviously there will need to be braille and  
>> presumably a
>> cane introduced if they are not already in use. (I assume the child  
>> is
>> able to travel typically.) My point being not to overlook the  
>> obvious--
>>
>> If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of
>> congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might be an
>> mp3 player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons
>> (as in the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more  
>> extreme,
>> like a victor reader.
>>
>> If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described videos
>> or even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her
>> own. The technology in this case might be the adapted media itself or
>> simply an accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with
>> tactile tape and avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids are on
>> the computer, it might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on and
>> on.
>>
>> I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I posted
>> to get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
>> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>
>> There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas
>> (please post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with
>> peers across the board in technology is going to involve long-term
>> exposure to many different adaptations and technology solutions
>> because that is what all the other kids have around themselves
>> constantly...
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>> with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>
> Carol Castellano, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 973-377-0976
> carol_castellano at verizon.net
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 17:34:42 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:34:42 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <3DD9965C4F424064880DED59473A8D8D@JkTC4D1>
References: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
	<4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com>
	<3DD9965C4F424064880DED59473A8D8D@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <1E66DEA2-C3C4-494D-B0D3-548D2F1D40C8@gopbc.org>

Recently, I needed to jot down a phone number in a hurry in a loud and  
socially awkward situation. (I am sighted.) Could not find a pen or  
pencil so I went for my Blackberry and in the confusion, congestion  
and noise the task became overwhelming. I use my BB often and with  
ease, but at that moment I had the hardest time trying to talk with  
several people and focus on opening something (and to see the tiny  
keys and text with my bifocals in a dark room) where I could manage to  
type in a  simple 10 digit number. All I needed right then was a  
simple pen.

It is for that sort of situation that I want my daughter to ultimately  
be prepared to grab that slate and stylus, if nothing else.




On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> I never got that  Heather did not support the introduction or use of  
> a slate
> and stylus, just that in this technology age, as I understood the  
> question
> as posed   technologies are key to introduce to children as early as
> possible.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:00 AM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> Dear Heather,
> I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper  
> Braille,
> neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or  
> pencil. I know
> hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties,  
> thirties
> and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it,  
> own
> Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find  
> times on
> a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
> slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
> regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions  
> down in
> interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has  
> more
> than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at  
> another
> place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the  
> small slate
> and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes  
> only
> independent option. All these people only turn to this because they  
> have
> proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that  
> those who do
> not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use.  
> Because you
> do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that  
> such a
> strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I  
> might add
> who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them  
> to some
> degree of proficiency.
>
> As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure  
> out the
> slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given  
> thousands of
> attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and  
> making marks.
> Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a  
> bad idea
> to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble  
> the
> teacher might feel and is transferred.
>
> Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There  
> is no
> reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is  
> true that
> I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and  
> the
> slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on  
> the
> Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate  
> first
> (even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and  
> then add
> the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the  
> slate. It is
> indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate  
> "in"
> these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often  
> "easier"
> at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
> Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to  
> accept the
> slate the longer you wait.
>
> I have known several blind students (including an international  
> student age
> 16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never  
> did like
> the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a  
> pen. You
> use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.
>
> The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength  
> further
> for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken  
> to learn
> to write print as well.
>
> Sincerely,
> Carrie Gilmer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I  
> know,
> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men  
> or
> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a  
> pinch, but
> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a  
> regular basis.
>
> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because  
> they were
> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can  
> understand and
>
> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed  
> when I
> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.   
> For
> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list,  
> list
> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly  
> say that I
>
> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on  
> a list
> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind  
> students,
>
> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think  
> her four
> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or  
> home phone
>
> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning  
> on a
> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod  
> touch.
> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> A slate and stylus!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  
>>> experience is
>>> with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman  
>>> said she
>>> had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to  
>>> keep up
>>> with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/ 
>>> technology is
>>> here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
> er.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 18 17:47:28 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:47:28 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] SSDI/SSI, was Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <7B3D5CBBE54945E9909F1829AD2596A0@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1><731C412298CF444D93A1EC80CDA77324@JkTC4D1>
	<7B3D5CBBE54945E9909F1829AD2596A0@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <AB6C84945E634980B5114ADE1C1DFBF5@JkTC4D1>

Do not get me wrong. I understand everything you said. Without shifting
social perspectives on our abilities no matter how hard we market ourselves,
or the levels of education we go after, we will, as a community, always be
relegated  to positions that do not use our skills and abilities in an
empowering and uplifting manner. Now I myself would be lost without the
comforts afforded by disability payments, but I will work doggedly to shift
that with every ounce of my being. It is my hope that you will be able to
actively garner employment based upon your abilities and expertise, rather
then being marginalized because of misperceptions about blindness. 

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:48 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] SSDI/SSI, was Technology and Little Kid

Here here.  One thing, and one thing only.  To the SSI and SSD.  My mother 
recieves SSD and I recieve a portion of that, and I am living off of that 
and FAFSA so that I can get an education, and if I fail despite my good 
education and best efforts to find a job that pays adequately I will, with 
no shame recieve SSDI to supplement what I earn.  My mother works her tail 
off, she has a masters degree in education with a concintration in computer 
sciences.  This town is dominated by the opressive pressence of ABVI, the 
Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired, and for a while, when I was

very small, the best job my educated, intelligent, resourceful mom could get

was packing sticky note pads in boxes or stripping film off of canisters at 
ABVI.  It is sick.  She has worked as a switchboard operater at a huge 
hotel, an independent living skills coordinator at the center for disability

rights, an indepentent skills educator and supervisor of peer advocates at 
the riegional center for independent living, and she is now working at a 
call center for Healthy New York.  I am a hard working, driven individual 
with some college and a regents deploma with advanced designation from high 
school and my jobs have included sewing pants in a *cringe* sheltered work 
shop, run by ABVI, working as a clerk in a goodwill store, run by ABVI and 
doing interrogations transcription for OMRDD, the office of mental 
retardation and developmental disabilities.  Those were all summer jobs 
while attending high school or college.  There are some individuals who 
totally mootch off of the system, settle for less, have no lives and little 
money and it is their own fault.  But there are many men and women doing 
their best who still do not get desent jobs.  I know that it is frustrating 
to see some blind people who sit at home all day and are content to do so, 
but just be sure to bare in mind people like my mother and I.  Those blind 
people who become lawyers and colege professors and so on are not the norm. 
They should be, and some day they will be, but it is just important to 
remember that many people who are unemployed or underemployed are no worse, 
no less motivated, no less intelligent than the blind lawyers and 
professors, they just happened to not be in the right places at the right 
times, to meet up with the right employers and open-minded people who gave 
those more successful people a chance.  I am raising my children to work 
like crazy, to get ahead, to make the best of their lives, to be successful,

but I am also raising them with the self knowledge and selfesteme so that, 
if they do not succeed as much as they deserve, because of the way society 
is, that they can find other things in their lives to be happy about, and so

that they will not beat themselves up for things beyond their control.  Have

no fear though, I am not raising them to blame others for their lack of 
effort.  If they fail because they did not try, I will not coddle them, but 
if something unfair and beyond their control keeps them down, they will also

be helped to cope with that and move beyond it to try again.  I know I am 
ranting, but I am sick of getting dirty looks and hearing snide comments 
when people find out that I am on SSD.  There is no shame in it, especially 
because SSD is based on your work record, your past effort.  SSI, is just a 
freeby, unless we are talking about blind college students, because they 
have not yet had a chanse to succeed or fail.  A forty year old man, who has

no spouse, no children, no life, no job, who never completed his education 
and is on SSI?  Yeah, loser, no doubt, but just be aware that SSDI does not 
equal lower effort or lower class in all cases.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I was being diplomatic. But I am here as an educator to say that narrow
> minded and generationally corrupted thoughts like using only a slate and
> stylus are what is keeping our youth from realizing there fullest 
> potential
> and why we still as a community experience unemployment rates which remain
> unshifted for decades. Get the child a computer, kids nowadays are using
> computers almost out of the womb. Ok not out of the womb, but they are 
> using
> key boards and simulated toys which promote technology awareness and skill
> development as soon as they are able. Children of all abilities are like
> sponges, they soak up as much information during their  toddler and pre-k
> years which serves as a foundation for all their future learning
> opportunities. Set the bar high, give them more then you yourself think 
> they
> can handle and handle it they will. If we as parents and elders have 
> little
> or no sense of empowering possibilities for them, they will learn to be
> dependent on others and fall into this depressive cycle of SSI and SSDI
> dependency and disppair. Power up that computer and set the key board up
> with locator dots and let your child investigate the wonders of technology
> on their own. It will bode well for them when they actually need to 
> perfect
> knowledge and usability  of these key equalizers in their future 
> endeavors.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:05 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know,
> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or
> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, 
> but
> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular 
> basis.
>
> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they 
> were
> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand 
> and
>
> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I
> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For
> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list
> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that

> I
>
> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list
> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
> students,
>
> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four
> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home 
> phone
>
> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a
> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.
> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>A slate and stylus!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
>>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she
>>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up
>>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is
>>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
> er.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com
> 


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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ot.org




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 17:43:50 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:43:50 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <C655D8FD7D5D4AD4938F96DF1C404A8B@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><D722ACD4F25547C88CD184BCF3726ACC@CSMC.EDU><B5D63C18-772E-4228-BCDE-A80A248EB89C@gopbc.org>
	<E668DD3BE9D34C69B6C345BAFDE1679F@7PYZPJ1>
	<C655D8FD7D5D4AD4938F96DF1C404A8B@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <EF0D7B30-90B6-4599-8C6B-1B8C024C9535@gopbc.org>

We cleared out several local Toys-R-Us stores of those a few years  
back for birthday party favors-- we wanted all our daughter's friends  
to have a little braille exposure.

I would expect they still stock them but I don't see them on line. I  
would just tell them you want the Playskool Letter Magnets as I doubt  
they will even be aware that they have braille on them.






On Feb 18, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Sally Thomas wrote:

> I bought a set on letters and numbers from the Hasbro website a  
> while back but they don't seem to have them any more.
>
> Sally Thomas
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com 
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> >
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> Thanks for this.  All of the print style letters I have seen are  
>> sans braille, and all of the braille tiles are plane squares or  
>> rectangles, with raised letters.  That is fine for older children,  
>> but letters that are cut out, like these are awsum.  Thanks so  
>> much.  Off to find a set.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org 
>> >
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"  
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> There are even some toys like these from Playkool-- large,  
>>> magnetic 3- D plastic print letters and numbers which have braille  
>>> made onto them, though the number set actually has only the a for  
>>> 1, b for 2 (etc.) portion-- (they left of the number signs).
>>>
>>> Here is a link to them on amazon though they show to be out of  
>>> stock.  If they're not made anymore, watch for them on ebay.
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Playskool-Magnetic-Letters-Numbers-Pack/dp/B000O5H3DI
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:52 AM, DrV wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm pretty techno-liberal, but I agree with Mike.
>>>> That being said, one of my younger son's favorite "toys" was a  
>>>> Perkins -> at 2 or 3 he would sit on the floor & intensely "type"  
>>>> on the keys with the same fervor & rhythm as my wife & older son  
>>>> as  they brailled away at the kitchen table. In retrospect, I do  
>>>> wish  someone like Mike would have suggested scribbling on a  
>>>> Slate &  Stylus however.
>>>> My older son started on the BrailleNote in first grade, the  
>>>> younger  one in kindergarten.
>>>> They each enjoyed "scribbling" with JAWS on the computer in  
>>>> preschool.
>>>> There are many great alphabet toys, some that are toy laptops  
>>>> with a QWERTY keyboard layout - you just add the braille label  
>>>> letters &  they become readily accessible and are completely age  
>>>> appropriate.  They teach letters & phonics & easier words in a  
>>>> very age- appropriate manner.
>>>> Eric V
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>>>> children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 19:46
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"  <dandrews at visi.com 
>>>>> >
>>>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  
>>>>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to   
>>>>>> say. A woman said she had a four year old totally blind  
>>>>>> daughter,  and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in  
>>>>>> technology, so  what assistive technology/technology is here   
>>>>>> -- should she start  using with her child?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>>> info  for blindkid:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>> info  for blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>> info  for blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From icdx at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 18 17:53:12 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:53:12 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <CB30192F721C472FA8105E0986D1D416@CSMC.EDU>

I had similar concerns/feelings about the manipulation/ dexterity issues, 
though the more I think about it more, the more I think that perception may 
be inaccurate. Most kids don't pick up a pencil or crayon for the first time 
& write or draw perfectly - sometimes it is not even recognizable - that 
comes with practice. When I think of some of the toys my kids play with, 
there is a lot of fine-motor manipulation they learn to do amazingly 
efficiently - that comes with time & desire/motivation. If they are able to 
do those types of fine-motor manipulations, they should be able to 
manipulate a Slate & Stylus.

Long before we got married my wife worked with a social worker at a Physical 
Rehab Institute in Detroit; the social worker was a very proficient 
note-taker - she was blind & relied on the Slate & Stylus. I know times have 
changed & I am a avid proponent of the benefits of early introduction of 
technology, but I have seen the clear benefits of a Slate & Stylus in 
action. Some people are VERY fast. My older son has started to use it to 
label & keep track of print papers that he gets from time to time in school 
& to label assignments he prints at school, for he still needs to keep track 
of these. Alas, I truly do wish the concept had been pushed strongly 
earlier.  Electronic notetaker batteries do run out of steam from time to 
time & the turn around time for sending in an electronic notetaker can be 
several weeks.

California is the first state to adopt formal Braille Reading Standards - 
teaching of the Slate & Stylus is a part of that. While this is a 
philosophically a great step in the right direction, the reality is that few 
teachers take teaching the Slate & Stylus to heart.

I recall hearing the story of a lady by the name of Kim Boshart in Nebraska 
who started teaching preschoolers to write with the slate and stylus 
"because she didn't know they couldn't learn it" that young. Guess what? 
They did learn! That comes from Ramona Walhof's 1993 NFB National Convention 
address entitled "BRAILLE: A RENAISSANCE" - it is definitely worth reading 
(www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm93/brlm9310.htm).

Eric V



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 21:42
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a  bad 
> idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have  the 
> fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be  ready for 
> the whole mirror image concept.
>
> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I 
> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a  braille 
> novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted 
> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time. 
> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like 
> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at 
> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the 
> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling" 
> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an 
> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and 
> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand  and 
> finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.  Many 
> schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use  at home 
> for free once the child is in school.
>
> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all  the 
> options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to  them--  
> at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in  fact, it 
> continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on  what she seems 
> ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of  these things. There 
> is also an entire range of tactile graphics  solutions and manipulatives. 
> You can produce these with pipe cleaners,  and a bottle of glue, or you 
> can use a multi-thousand dollar  thermoform; quite a range of options 
> exists.
>
> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still  uses 
> a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her  computer 
> and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille  and that can 
> be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see  for her is needing 
> to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot  of technology in use by 
> an early age.
>
> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as 
> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this  child 
> runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient  braille 
> reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille  stickers 
> on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,  table, drawer, 
> oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the  child to ask 
> questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"  and later "what do 
> these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use  twin vision books--  
> sighted kids look at letters while parents read  most every time. Blind 
> kids can do the same-- that's why it is best  when adding braille to a 
> print book to always put the braille below  the print-- a sighted reader 
> can still read while small hands are  exploring the braille.
>
> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.  Things 
> like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be  careful that 
> an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten  or a PAC Mate is 
> not learned at the expense of being able to use a  mechanical 
> braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up  all of this 
> child's life, at least from time to time.
>
> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift 
> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct  her 
> towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide  which way 
> she wants to proceed.
>
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   A woman said 
>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  wanted her to 
>> keep up with her peers in technology, so what  assistive 
>> technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  with her 
>> child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Thu Feb 18 18:04:01 2010
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:04:01 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <08E077F6-18B2-4B19-BC18-76FD67F34EA6@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org>
	<893653.45268.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<08E077F6-18B2-4B19-BC18-76FD67F34EA6@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <479297.39624.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

There are are several on the market--you can see them at Independent 
Living Aids.  Serena just got one called Colorino.  You can put it 
against an object--piece of clothing, etc.--and it will announce the 
color.  It worked on our cats as well, which was extremely cool.

Re coloring screens, people can make their own and I believe APH 
sells one or two styles.

Carol

At 12:21 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>Absolutely-- I have been wanting to brainstorm and add as many other
>things as anyone can come up with; all suggestions are welcome.
>
>The screens should be easy enough--
>
>What sort of color identifiers are you thinking of? I recall some
>tactile color swatches with different textures but I cannot recall the
>particulars.
>
>Richard
>
>
>On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:
>
>>Hi Richard,
>>
>>Love the gopbc technology site!  Maybe add coloring screens and
>>color identifiers?
>>
>>Carol
>>
>>At 10:00 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>I just re-read Dave's question.
>>>
>>>I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his
>>>original question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical
>>>vision, are most likely seeing technology constantly. It will take a
>>>lot more than only a slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort
>>>of
>>>begs the question as to what in particular she wants to keep up with
>>>the most, but obviously there will need to be braille and
>>>presumably a
>>>cane introduced if they are not already in use. (I assume the child
>>>is
>>>able to travel typically.) My point being not to overlook the
>>>obvious--
>>>
>>>If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of
>>>congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might be an
>>>mp3 player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons
>>>(as in the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more
>>>extreme,
>>>like a victor reader.
>>>
>>>If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described videos
>>>or even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her
>>>own. The technology in this case might be the adapted media itself or
>>>simply an accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with
>>>tactile tape and avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids are on
>>>the computer, it might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on and
>>>on.
>>>
>>>I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I posted
>>>to get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
>>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>>
>>>There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas
>>>(please post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with
>>>peers across the board in technology is going to involve long-term
>>>exposure to many different adaptations and technology solutions
>>>because that is what all the other kids have around themselves
>>>constantly...
>>>
>>>Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>>>with her child?
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindkid:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>>
>>Carol Castellano, President
>>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>973-377-0976
>>carol_castellano at verizon.net
>>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc 





From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 18 18:13:05 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:13:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <CB30192F721C472FA8105E0986D1D416@CSMC.EDU>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<CB30192F721C472FA8105E0986D1D416@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <D541FFC1E7BF467D9471F1531C775ACA@JkTC4D1>

Only through investigation and access to tools will any child, blind or not,
learn.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of DrV
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:53 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

I had similar concerns/feelings about the manipulation/ dexterity issues, 
though the more I think about it more, the more I think that perception may 
be inaccurate. Most kids don't pick up a pencil or crayon for the first time

& write or draw perfectly - sometimes it is not even recognizable - that 
comes with practice. When I think of some of the toys my kids play with, 
there is a lot of fine-motor manipulation they learn to do amazingly 
efficiently - that comes with time & desire/motivation. If they are able to 
do those types of fine-motor manipulations, they should be able to 
manipulate a Slate & Stylus.

Long before we got married my wife worked with a social worker at a Physical

Rehab Institute in Detroit; the social worker was a very proficient 
note-taker - she was blind & relied on the Slate & Stylus. I know times have

changed & I am a avid proponent of the benefits of early introduction of 
technology, but I have seen the clear benefits of a Slate & Stylus in 
action. Some people are VERY fast. My older son has started to use it to 
label & keep track of print papers that he gets from time to time in school 
& to label assignments he prints at school, for he still needs to keep track

of these. Alas, I truly do wish the concept had been pushed strongly 
earlier.  Electronic notetaker batteries do run out of steam from time to 
time & the turn around time for sending in an electronic notetaker can be 
several weeks.

California is the first state to adopt formal Braille Reading Standards - 
teaching of the Slate & Stylus is a part of that. While this is a 
philosophically a great step in the right direction, the reality is that few

teachers take teaching the Slate & Stylus to heart.

I recall hearing the story of a lady by the name of Kim Boshart in Nebraska 
who started teaching preschoolers to write with the slate and stylus 
"because she didn't know they couldn't learn it" that young. Guess what? 
They did learn! That comes from Ramona Walhof's 1993 NFB National Convention

address entitled "BRAILLE: A RENAISSANCE" - it is definitely worth reading 
(www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm93/brlm9310.htm).

Eric V



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 21:42
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a  bad 
> idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have  the 
> fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be  ready for

> the whole mirror image concept.
>
> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I 
> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a  braille

> novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted 
> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time. 
> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like 
> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at 
> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the 
> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling" 
> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an 
> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and 
> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand  and 
> finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.  Many 
> schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use  at home

> for free once the child is in school.
>
> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all  the 
> options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to  them--  
> at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in  fact, it 
> continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on  what she seems

> ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of  these things. There 
> is also an entire range of tactile graphics  solutions and manipulatives. 
> You can produce these with pipe cleaners,  and a bottle of glue, or you 
> can use a multi-thousand dollar  thermoform; quite a range of options 
> exists.
>
> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still  uses

> a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her  computer 
> and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille  and that can 
> be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see  for her is needing

> to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot  of technology in use by

> an early age.
>
> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as 
> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this  child 
> runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient  braille 
> reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille  stickers 
> on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,  table, drawer, 
> oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the  child to ask 
> questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"  and later "what do

> these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use  twin vision books--  
> sighted kids look at letters while parents read  most every time. Blind 
> kids can do the same-- that's why it is best  when adding braille to a 
> print book to always put the braille below  the print-- a sighted reader 
> can still read while small hands are  exploring the braille.
>
> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.  Things

> like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be  careful that

> an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten  or a PAC Mate is

> not learned at the expense of being able to use a  mechanical 
> braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up  all of this 
> child's life, at least from time to time.
>
> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift 
> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct  her 
> towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide  which way

> she wants to proceed.
>
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   A woman said 
>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  wanted her to 
>> keep up with her peers in technology, so what  assistive 
>> technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  with her 
>> child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
et 


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 18:13:36 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:13:36 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>
	<60C126DD-2F1F-45D1-8DDF-13773D0AF222@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <985080EC934F41D49417A5A265C34778@7PYZPJ1>

What I meant was that it is a shame that they are not used more with sighted 
kids.  They are a great tool for both.  I am used to speaking passionately 
and vehemently, almost always theatrically about issues such is this in my 
classes for educators, hense the wordy and apparently confusing statement on 
my part.  Iapolagize.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>>   I am also not a big fan of the school of thought that an abacus is  a 
>> good way to teach blind kids some beginning math concepts.  That  is 
>> bologni.  An abacus is a good way to teach all kids math concepts.
>
> I'm not quite certain I follow this point-- an abacus is an excellent 
> tool to teach blind kids certain math concepts from basic to advanced  and 
> an excellent substitution (when appropriately added to IEP's) for  scratch 
> paper and pencil in testing, especially certain kinds of  standardized 
> testing. I know this because my daughter has been using  one effectively 
> and efficiently since about age three; it works for  her and she is blind, 
> so it is clearly a workable solution at least in  some cases. I find it to 
> be an excellent bridge between manipulatives  and abstract math concepts.
>
> Sometimes BrailleNotes (and the like) are not allowed for testing  because 
> auto calculations cannot be properly disabled, at least not  beyond being 
> potentially re-enabled by a student and giving the blind  student a 
> possible "unfair advantage" in testing. In effect, an  unscrupulous 
> student could "sneak" a calculator into a testing  situation that way. An 
> abacus can't be used for auto-anything and  there can be no question about 
> that in a testing situation. It also  (like the slate & stylus) works all 
> the time-- no lock-ups, no dead  batteries.
>
> Were you suggesting that an abacus is not only good for blind kids but  is 
> potentially a good tool for sighted students as well? Again, a big 
> feature that makes it more appropriate for blind kids is that while 
> sighted kids can use a paper and pencil in a testing situation, that  is 
> not an option for blind kids, but if you would have all kids be  given an 
> abacus at testing time I doubt you'd find many people against  that 
> option; I certainly approve.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> 




From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Feb 18 18:13:27 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:13:27 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Richard:

Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't 
necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are 
not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by 
professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started with 
slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd or 3rd 
grade, so I am very good with slate.  To do it the other way around 
guarantees that the slate will always be a second class citizen.

Dave

At 11:42 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>
>A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>at home for free once the child is in school.
>
>I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>
>Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>of technology in use by an early age.
>
>It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>exploring the braille.
>
>Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>
>I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>which way she wants to proceed.
>
>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>with her child?
>>
>>Dave




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 18:58:27 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:58:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <479297.39624.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org>
	<893653.45268.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<08E077F6-18B2-4B19-BC18-76FD67F34EA6@gopbc.org>
	<479297.39624.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D2C0FA6A-ED87-4863-A502-02525D836536@gopbc.org>

Ah, I had the wrong thing entirely in mind-- yes that belongs there  
for certain.

That is one thing we haven't bought for Kendra... yet!

;-)

Richard



On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Carol Castellano wrote:

> There are are several on the market--you can see them at Independent  
> Living Aids.  Serena just got one called Colorino.  You can put it  
> against an object--piece of clothing, etc.--and it will announce the  
> color.  It worked on our cats as well, which was extremely cool.
>
> Re coloring screens, people can make their own and I believe APH  
> sells one or two styles.
>
> Carol
>
> At 12:21 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>> Absolutely-- I have been wanting to brainstorm and add as many other
>> things as anyone can come up with; all suggestions are welcome.
>>
>> The screens should be easy enough--
>>
>> What sort of color identifiers are you thinking of? I recall some
>> tactile color swatches with different textures but I cannot recall  
>> the
>> particulars.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Richard,
>>>
>>> Love the gopbc technology site!  Maybe add coloring screens and
>>> color identifiers?
>>>
>>> Carol
>>>
>>> At 10:00 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>> I just re-read Dave's question.
>>>>
>>>> I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his
>>>> original question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical
>>>> vision, are most likely seeing technology constantly. It will  
>>>> take a
>>>> lot more than only a slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort
>>>> of
>>>> begs the question as to what in particular she wants to keep up  
>>>> with
>>>> the most, but obviously there will need to be braille and
>>>> presumably a
>>>> cane introduced if they are not already in use. (I assume the child
>>>> is
>>>> able to travel typically.) My point being not to overlook the
>>>> obvious--
>>>>
>>>> If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of
>>>> congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might  
>>>> be an
>>>> mp3 player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons
>>>> (as in the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more
>>>> extreme,
>>>> like a victor reader.
>>>>
>>>> If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described  
>>>> videos
>>>> or even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her
>>>> own. The technology in this case might be the adapted media  
>>>> itself or
>>>> simply an accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with
>>>> tactile tape and avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids  
>>>> are on
>>>> the computer, it might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on  
>>>> and
>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>> I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I  
>>>> posted
>>>> to get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
>>>> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>>>
>>>> There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas
>>>> (please post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with
>>>> peers across the board in technology is going to involve long-term
>>>> exposure to many different adaptations and technology solutions
>>>> because that is what all the other kids have around themselves
>>>> constantly...
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to  
>>>>> say.
>>>>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and  
>>>>> she
>>>>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>>> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start  
>>>>> using
>>>>> with her child?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>>>
>>> Carol Castellano, President
>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>> 973-377-0976
>>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>
> Carol Castellano, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 973-377-0976
> carol_castellano at verizon.net
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 19:39:27 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:39:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <348644F6-783B-4A35-8EDE-003050F8C2EF@gopbc.org>

My main basis for that is that our daughter still struggles with the  
slate and stylus even with a good deal of exposure while she excels  
with the brailler, PacMate, Braillenote, etc., and will soon (I  
suspect) begin to master the qwerty options as well She seems to have  
trouble with precise placement of the stylus to hit the right dot. I  
do suspect if it were her only option, she's be better at it, but at  
the same time, she can pretty well braille as fast as she might  
dictate a letter. I cannot imagine a first grader (or anyone for that  
matter) who can do that with a slate.

Again, I'm working with direct history from a sample of one child.   
(Your mileage may vary!)

I can say this with some certainty though-- my pens & pencils will  
always be second class citizens to my laptop and the reality is that  
I'm, probably 10 or 20 times more productive with a laptop than a pen  
and paper so I have no problem with that. Do any of us these days work  
better without a computer? For myself, I draw the line at not having  
the pen & paper / slate & stylus option available at all; that is  
dangerous.


Richard




On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:13 PM, David Andrews wrote:

> Richard:
>
> Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't  
> necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are  
> not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by  
> professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started  
> with slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd  
> or 3rd grade, so I am very good with slate.  To do it the other way  
> around guarantees that the slate will always be a second class  
> citizen.
>
> Dave




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Thu Feb 18 19:41:27 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:41:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <985080EC934F41D49417A5A265C34778@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>
	<60C126DD-2F1F-45D1-8DDF-13773D0AF222@gopbc.org>
	<985080EC934F41D49417A5A265C34778@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <42369F99-D07A-4452-892F-8A346CCF66F1@gopbc.org>

Sorry-- I was not clear on what you said. It seems we are in agreement!

Maybe one day the blind abacus users can start a revolution!

Richard




On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:13 PM, Heather wrote:

> What I meant was that it is a shame that they are not used more with  
> sighted kids.  They are a great tool for both.  I am used to  
> speaking passionately and vehemently, almost always theatrically  
> about issues such is this in my classes for educators, hense the  
> wordy and apparently confusing statement on my part.  Iapolagize.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org 
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> >
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid



From grace at babymilagro.org  Thu Feb 18 19:48:32 2010
From: grace at babymilagro.org (Grace Tiscareno-Sato)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:48:32 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] tech and little kids
Message-ID: <4B7D9990.3020102@babymilagro.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://nfbnet.org/pipermail/blindkid_nfbnet.org/attachments/20100218/0450591e/attachment.html>

From owinm at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 18 19:53:14 2010
From: owinm at yahoo.com (Merry-Noel Chamberlain)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:53:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <479297.39624.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <933835.93979.qm@web43408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Regarding Coloring Screens - some plastic placemats at local stores have rough backings with ridges and they serve nicely as color screens.

--- On Thu, 2/18/10, Carol Castellano <blindchildren at verizon.net> wrote:


From: Carol Castellano <blindchildren at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 6:04 PM


There are are several on the market--you can see them at Independent 
Living Aids.? Serena just got one called Colorino.? You can put it 
against an object--piece of clothing, etc.--and it will announce the 
color.? It worked on our cats as well, which was extremely cool.

Re coloring screens, people can make their own and I believe APH 
sells one or two styles.

Carol

At 12:21 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>Absolutely-- I have been wanting to brainstorm and add as many other
>things as anyone can come up with; all suggestions are welcome.
>
>The screens should be easy enough--
>
>What sort of color identifiers are you thinking of? I recall some
>tactile color swatches with different textures but I cannot recall the
>particulars.
>
>Richard
>
>
>On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:
>
>>Hi Richard,
>>
>>Love the gopbc technology site!? Maybe add coloring screens and
>>color identifiers?
>>
>>Carol
>>
>>At 10:00 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>I just re-read Dave's question.
>>>
>>>I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his
>>>original question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical
>>>vision, are most likely seeing technology constantly. It will take a
>>>lot more than only a slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort
>>>of
>>>begs the question as to what in particular she wants to keep up with
>>>the most, but obviously there will need to be braille and
>>>presumably a
>>>cane introduced if they are not already in use. (I assume the child
>>>is
>>>able to travel typically.) My point being not to overlook the
>>>obvious--
>>>
>>>If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of
>>>congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might be an
>>>mp3 player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons
>>>(as in the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more
>>>extreme,
>>>like a victor reader.
>>>
>>>If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described videos
>>>or even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her
>>>own. The technology in this case might be the adapted media itself or
>>>simply an accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with
>>>tactile tape and avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids are on
>>>the computer, it might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on and
>>>on.
>>>
>>>I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I posted
>>>to get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
>>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>>
>>>There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas
>>>(please post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with
>>>peers across the board in technology is going to involve long-term
>>>exposure to many different adaptations and technology solutions
>>>because that is what all the other kids have around themselves
>>>constantly...
>>>
>>>Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>>assistive technology/technology is there? -- should she start using
>>>>with her child?
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindkid:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>>
>>Carol Castellano, President
>>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>973-377-0976
>>carol_castellano at verizon.net
>>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc 



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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 20:18:05 2010
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:18:05 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <348644F6-783B-4A35-8EDE-003050F8C2EF@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <4b7da080.1702be0a.2cb5.6b52@mx.google.com>

If you look at handwriting samples of lots of sighted  kindergarteners and
first graders you will see a variety of skill...by third grade they all pull
closer, some-a few- never get totally easily legible.  My sighted youngest
could write her name in print at age three and a half, legibly. My oldest
had ADD and hardly sat down until kindergarten, he hated coloring and
writing. 

 

You can always expect to have variety in the blind population as well. I am
very glad Eric found Ramona's speech with Kim's experience and put the link
up. I think her point (Kim's) that she did it because she did not know
better is very important to think of. Nearly all our children's educational
gaps and lacking-s come from speculated and presumed "they can't, it is too
hard". And because she thought they could and encouraged and gave them the
opportunity and practice well, yeah they did actually do it. She did not
have some group from another planet. It just has not been tried enough-all
the naysayers say it from pure speculation. It is a fact that years ago
nearly all blind children at 5 and 6 started off with slate and stylus.
These children had no more trouble than the average sighted child in
starting. It is a fact that practically virtually every sighted child that
enters kindergarten has thousands of times, hundreds and hundreds of hours,
controlling and practicing with a hand held writing instrument. If they had
trouble well they often had to practice MORE not less. In school they did it
all day long. 

 

We get good at what we spend the most time at. I think the very fine skill
of placing the stylus in the slate cell is some of the most excellent fine
motor coordination practice kids could get, never mind the benefits of
learning to write this way efficiently. Who needs to use their hands and get
good at identifying and manuipulating with fine skill and in detail more
than our kids?

 

As in early handwriting with pen, you don't expect actual letter formation
maybe even the first YEAR or TWO. With the slate one dot obviously could
appear to be an "A", but a child can practice and get finger strength within
the cell just trying making dots, or with no slate. The stylus can also
scribble and press raised lines on Braille  paper with a giving under
cardboard or strong foam like a mouse pad that has some give. The practice
time is often not even within a galaxy that they need before parents and
teachers claim it is hard or their child can not do it, in my experience.

 

I think the bad wrap the slate/stylus has acquired and the dismissed
opportunity and lack of understanding in its total benefits is ONE of the
greatest mistakes in the education of our children in the last 50 years.

Carrie

 

 

 

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Holloway
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:39 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

 

My main basis for that is that our daughter still struggles with the  

slate and stylus even with a good deal of exposure while she excels  

with the brailler, PacMate, Braillenote, etc., and will soon (I  

suspect) begin to master the qwerty options as well She seems to have  

trouble with precise placement of the stylus to hit the right dot. I  

do suspect if it were her only option, she's be better at it, but at  

the same time, she can pretty well braille as fast as she might  

dictate a letter. I cannot imagine a first grader (or anyone for that  

matter) who can do that with a slate.

 

Again, I'm working with direct history from a sample of one child.   

(Your mileage may vary!)

 

I can say this with some certainty though-- my pens & pencils will  

always be second class citizens to my laptop and the reality is that  

I'm, probably 10 or 20 times more productive with a laptop than a pen  

and paper so I have no problem with that. Do any of us these days work  

better without a computer? For myself, I draw the line at not having  

the pen & paper / slate & stylus option available at all; that is  

dangerous.

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:13 PM, David Andrews wrote:

 

> Richard:

> 

> Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't  

> necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are  

> not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by  

> professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started  

> with slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd  

> or 3rd grade, so I am very good with slate.  To do it the other way  

> around guarantees that the slate will always be a second class  

> citizen.

> 

> Dave

 

 

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 20:47:52 2010
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:47:52 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <4b7da77b.1508c00a.04db.4586@mx.google.com>

Or..put another way, how many sighted children could or would want to draw
or write if they never so much as touched a pen, pencil, marker, or crayon
ever-at all--until age 8 or older and they learned to write solely on
keyboard. And then only did it maybe 10 or 15 minutes at a time.
Well it is creeping into the sighted world too somewhat; already time in
classroom spent on cursive writing has dropped dramatically. Kids are often
are no longer graded on handwriting. And it is showing, the discussion there
has begun. Does any parent or teacher of a sighted child even consider
though dropping early writing and waiting to introduce it until 3rd or
fourth grade, no. Will they ever? I doubt it will be dropped totally in my
lifetime. 
Carrie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:13 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Richard:

Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't 
necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are 
not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by 
professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started with 
slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd or 3rd 
grade, so I am very good with slate.  To do it the other way around 
guarantees that the slate will always be a second class citizen.

Dave

At 11:42 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>
>A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>at home for free once the child is in school.
>
>I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>
>Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>of technology in use by an early age.
>
>It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>exploring the braille.
>
>Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>
>I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>which way she wants to proceed.
>
>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>with her child?
>>
>>Dave


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From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Feb 18 20:48:16 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:48:16 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <auto-000140378808@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Heather:

I hate getting into this (smile) because everybody won't agree, but .....

First I must ask you and others to treat the opinions and positions 
of others with more respect.  While they may be different from yours, 
the people who state them presumably have good reasons for stating 
them, as do you.

Next, I find your generalizations about the slate to be disturbing 
and depressing.  I don't know you, or your place in life, but I would 
guess you are a sighted person, possibly with a blind child.  You 
mention a blind Mother.

Would you, as a sighted person give up a pencil or pen and paper.  I 
doubt it.  While you may not use them all the time, when you need 
them, nothing else will do.  This is in part what the slate and 
stylus are for blind persons.  Yes, many people, including blind 
persons will put them down, but I suspect that in many instances they 
have not been taught well, so are minimized.  While we teach kids to 
write with a pencil before e giving them a computer as a primary 
tool, we think nothing about having them learn to write with a 
Braille Writer, then give them a slate.  Who would want it then.

I am one of those over-50 persons you mention.  I use the slate 
regularly, as I also use technology.  I have used technology heavily 
since the early 80's, and was the first Director of the NFB's 
International Braille and Technology Center, and still make my living 
with technology.  So, I don't think you can plausibly say I couldn't 
adjust to technology.  Likewise, Mike  Freeman who wrote the original 
message which you seemed to hold in such disdain has been a computer 
programmer since the early 80's I think, uses talking cell phone, 
Braille Sense, etc.  We love our technology, but want to have all 
possible tools available to us, including the slate.

A couple years ago, I attended a training session, costing over 
$500.  It was Minnesota and the winter and I slipped and fell, on the 
ice, on my way there.  When I got there, I discovered my Pac Mate 
wouldn't work.  So, if I hadn't also had a slate and stylus and been 
proficient with their use, it would have been $500 down the drain 
because I couldn't take notes.

Blind people need all the tools we can get, and we need to use the 
right one at the right time.  That includes the slate and stylus 
which is good for quick notes, in emergencies, where there is no 
electricity or when batteries are dead, and much more.

Dave


At 07:05 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I 
>know, children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally 
>challenged, men or women use those anymore.  Many own them, and 
>could use them in a pinch, but honestly, no one uses them as a main 
>means of writing or on a regular basis. Some people in the fifty or 
>older set still rely on them, because they were not able to keep up 
>with the changing technology, which I can understand and sympathize 
>with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I showed 
>her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For 
>confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, 
>list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could 
>honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind 
>people, and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for 
>blind parents and one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer 
>was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four year old would best 
>be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone to call his 
>mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a braille 
>note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch. 
>Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>A slate and stylus!
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my 
>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to 
>>>say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, 
>>>and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so 
>>>what assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start 
>>>using with her child?
>>>
>>>Dave




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 21:02:00 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:02:00 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1><4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com><3DD9965C4F424064880DED59473A8D8D@JkTC4D1>
	<1E66DEA2-C3C4-494D-B0D3-548D2F1D40C8@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <EEA75D93264548FC91E877017FFF0A8B@7PYZPJ1>

I can see some limited situations where it would be the only option, and by 
all means, if someone likes one, they should use it.  Just so long as the 
use of that technology doesn't prevent them from using other technologies 
such as tiny voice recorders, braille note takers, etc.  And, by all means, 
introduce her to one, but don't be surprised or offended if some day your 
daughter refuses to carry one, or hell, loves it, but refuses to carry a 
mini voice recorder.  The best thing to do is explain the complex pros and 
cons of all technologies and then let them decide.  I personallly, and many 
other blind people find them out dated and stigmatizing and love the fitting 
inn and the freedom that texting them self or voice mailing them self a 
short note, instead of writing it on a slate and styalis gives them. 
Others, who are super vigilent about not being obtrusive, that is people 
with Howard Gardiner's intra personal, not interpersonal multiple 
intelligence, really prefer the low profile, quiet option of a slate and 
styalis.  I, as a mom on the go, with a full diaper bag, a purse, a guide 
dog and a toddler in toe would never in a million years dream of carrying 
something so long and that requires the use of both hands, as I can simply 
call my own voice mail and leave my self a quick voice reminder of things I 
want to get at the grocery store, while walking down the street.  But, I 
know there are some blind people, in the world, I do not know them 
personally, that do prefer to use this particular technology.  I don't know 
how old your daughter is, but I have a feeling that when she is a teen ager, 
going through the teen age years she will scorn your slate and styalis and 
scorn my braillenote in favor of some new technology that neither of us can 
even imagine right now.  Kids will always want the newest greatest thing, 
and if you at least expose her to a slate, she might decide that she does in 
fact like it, when she is an adult, or she might hate it.  There is no way 
of knowing.  Final note.  Speaking from a social perspective.  It is far 
less stigmatizing for a blind person to whip out a cell phone than a slate, 
to take notes on a lap top than a perkins brailler, to read books on a 
victer reader stream or a braille note than to lug around huge braille text 
books or immense braille novels.  I am not saying that a person's entire 
life should be dictated by fashion or appearances, but even blind people who 
understand the importance of braille literacy and thank their parents every 
day for teaching them how to read braille.  Even blind people who appreciate 
the engenuity of the people who first invented things like the perkins 
brailler, the dimo tape labler and the slate, and who will always pick 
whichever technology gets the job done best in a pinch, do realize that 
carrying around two or three huge volumes of braille is ackward, or that at 
the end of a weary day, they have to educate the public less, answer less 
questions, etc, if they are using their cell rather than a slate.  I hate 
having to carry around a heavy brailler and huge thick text books, and I 
don't do it unless I have to, because it is time consuming, space consuming, 
makes me look like a dork and makes me stand out.  But, I am not so proud 
that I refuse to use my brailler for higher level math or if my braille note 
gets broken.  I am not so ignorant or proud that I won't get a foreign 
language book in braille, because, unlike a history or psychology text it is 
not as benificial in electronic or audeo form.  I just shrug when people 
laugh, or make fun of me, or ask me why I am not using a book on tape or my 
lap top, and say "Yeah, I prefer those, but for this subject, this is the 
best thing for the job, but it is a pain in the butt."  I feel that way 
about my cane, as a guide dog user.  I actively hate my cane.  I feel stupid 
using it, I hate how it makes noise in a quiet room or hallway and draws 
attention to me.  But, I am not so proud or stupid that I would not use one 
and make myself unsafe when I am inbetween a retired guide and a replacer 
guide.  And, some people prefer canes, which is their right.  And everyone 
has different priorities.  The embarrassment of having your very ill guide 
dog have explosive diareah in public is hundreds of times worse than the day 
to day embarrasement of your cane making noise or making you stand out, or 
tripping people, even if you are using proper techniques.  But the amazing 
exploding dog incident may never happen for people, or only once per dog 
guide, and most people are likely to sympathize with the sick dog, once they 
realize that is the problem, they are not likely to feel sorry for and 
forgive a white cane that trips them as they run to class.  Some blind 
people don't feel like dealing with the hastles of potential access issues 
with uninformed people refusing them enterance or service because of a guide 
dog, because they are not good with confrontations.  These people often 
prefer older more limited but far more reliable technologies, because slates 
and braillers and abacuses take a lot more abuse and don't die cold turkey 
like electronic technologies can.  It's a comfort zone/life style thing. 
Sighted example then.  I think it is stupid to refuse to use a GPS all 
together, because they do make things far more efficent, but I agree that it 
is equally stupid not to keep a basic working knowledge of your city and 
know how to use a map in a pinch.  Ok, I'm done.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Recently, I needed to jot down a phone number in a hurry in a loud and 
> socially awkward situation. (I am sighted.) Could not find a pen or 
> pencil so I went for my Blackberry and in the confusion, congestion  and 
> noise the task became overwhelming. I use my BB often and with  ease, but 
> at that moment I had the hardest time trying to talk with  several people 
> and focus on opening something (and to see the tiny  keys and text with my 
> bifocals in a dark room) where I could manage to  type in a  simple 10 
> digit number. All I needed right then was a  simple pen.
>
> It is for that sort of situation that I want my daughter to ultimately  be 
> prepared to grab that slate and stylus, if nothing else.
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> I never got that  Heather did not support the introduction or use of  a 
>> slate
>> and stylus, just that in this technology age, as I understood the 
>> question
>> as posed   technologies are key to introduce to children as early as
>> possible.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:00 AM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>> Dear Heather,
>> I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper 
>> Braille,
>> neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or  pencil. I 
>> know
>> hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties, 
>> thirties
>> and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it,  own
>> Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find  times 
>> on
>> a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
>> slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
>> regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions 
>> down in
>> interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has 
>> more
>> than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at 
>> another
>> place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the  small 
>> slate
>> and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes 
>> only
>> independent option. All these people only turn to this because they  have
>> proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that  those 
>> who do
>> not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use.  Because 
>> you
>> do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that 
>> such a
>> strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I  might 
>> add
>> who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them  to 
>> some
>> degree of proficiency.
>>
>> As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure  out 
>> the
>> slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given  thousands 
>> of
>> attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and  making 
>> marks.
>> Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a  bad 
>> idea
>> to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble  the
>> teacher might feel and is transferred.
>>
>> Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There  is 
>> no
>> reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is  true 
>> that
>> I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and  the
>> slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on  the
>> Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate  first
>> (even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and  then 
>> add
>> the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the  slate. 
>> It is
>> indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate  "in"
>> these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often 
>> "easier"
>> at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
>> Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to  accept 
>> the
>> slate the longer you wait.
>>
>> I have known several blind students (including an international  student 
>> age
>> 16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never  did 
>> like
>> the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a  pen. 
>> You
>> use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.
>>
>> The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength 
>> further
>> for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken  to 
>> learn
>> to write print as well.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Carrie Gilmer
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Heather
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I  know,
>> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men  or
>> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a  pinch, 
>> but
>> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a  regular 
>> basis.
>>
>> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because  they 
>> were
>> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can  understand 
>> and
>>
>> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed  when I
>> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.   For
>> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, 
>> list
>> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly  say 
>> that I
>>
>> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on  a 
>> list
>> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
>> students,
>>
>> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think  her 
>> four
>> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or  home 
>> phone
>>
>> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning  on a
>> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod 
>> touch.
>> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>>>> is
>>>> with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman  said 
>>>> she
>>>> had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to  keep 
>>>> up
>>>> with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/ technology 
>>>> is
>>>> here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
>> er.rr.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>> ail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 21:07:39 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:07:39 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org><893653.45268.qm@smtp102.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com><08E077F6-18B2-4B19-BC18-76FD67F34EA6@gopbc.org>
	<479297.39624.qm@smtp104.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6EF285C286F745538D6373B170B8A5B3@7PYZPJ1>

Oh, they have improved them.  That is neat.  The one we tried about ten 
years ago identified the black parts of our cat ziggy as purple and the 
white parts as lilac.  Poor ziggy.  The running joke was that he was a 
metrosexual cat.  Oh, and it said my brown hair was green, so I was the 
witch girl with the metrosexual cat.  roflmao
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carol Castellano" <blindchildren at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> There are are several on the market--you can see them at Independent 
> Living Aids.  Serena just got one called Colorino.  You can put it against 
> an object--piece of clothing, etc.--and it will announce the color.  It 
> worked on our cats as well, which was extremely cool.
>
> Re coloring screens, people can make their own and I believe APH sells one 
> or two styles.
>
> Carol
>
> At 12:21 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>Absolutely-- I have been wanting to brainstorm and add as many other
>>things as anyone can come up with; all suggestions are welcome.
>>
>>The screens should be easy enough--
>>
>>What sort of color identifiers are you thinking of? I recall some
>>tactile color swatches with different textures but I cannot recall the
>>particulars.
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>
>>On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Richard,
>>>
>>>Love the gopbc technology site!  Maybe add coloring screens and
>>>color identifiers?
>>>
>>>Carol
>>>
>>>At 10:00 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>>I just re-read Dave's question.
>>>>
>>>>I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his
>>>>original question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical
>>>>vision, are most likely seeing technology constantly. It will take a
>>>>lot more than only a slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort
>>>>of
>>>>begs the question as to what in particular she wants to keep up with
>>>>the most, but obviously there will need to be braille and
>>>>presumably a
>>>>cane introduced if they are not already in use. (I assume the child
>>>>is
>>>>able to travel typically.) My point being not to overlook the
>>>>obvious--
>>>>
>>>>If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of
>>>>congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might be an
>>>>mp3 player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons
>>>>(as in the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more
>>>>extreme,
>>>>like a victor reader.
>>>>
>>>>If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described videos
>>>>or even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her
>>>>own. The technology in this case might be the adapted media itself or
>>>>simply an accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with
>>>>tactile tape and avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids are on
>>>>the computer, it might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on and
>>>>on.
>>>>
>>>>I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I posted
>>>>to get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
>>>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>>>
>>>>There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas
>>>>(please post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with
>>>>peers across the board in technology is going to involve long-term
>>>>exposure to many different adaptations and technology solutions
>>>>because that is what all the other kids have around themselves
>>>>constantly...
>>>>
>>>>Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>>>>with her child?
>>>>>
>>>>>Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>for blindkid:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindkid:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>Carol Castellano, President
>>>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>>973-377-0976
>>>carol_castellano at verizon.net
>>>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>
> Carol Castellano, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 973-377-0976
> carol_castellano at verizon.net
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From icdx at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 18 21:16:53 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:16:53 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <4b7da77b.1508c00a.04db.4586@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <EB313D1DC7F24412B1E3E30C78EF6012@CSMC.EDU>

Quite a few of the teachers hold the belief that the slate & stylus should 
not be formally introduced and worked on until 3rd or 4th grade (& those are 
the one's who are even open to teaching it). They feel it is to technically 
difficult & "confusing". It seems like the new TVI graduates are likewise 
being taught this. One certainly wonders how good & efficient the 
"penmanship" of sighted children & adults would be if pencils, pens, crayons 
and markers were not introduced until 3rd or 4th grade...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:47
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Or..put another way, how many sighted children could or would want to draw
> or write if they never so much as touched a pen, pencil, marker, or crayon
> ever-at all--until age 8 or older and they learned to write solely on
> keyboard. And then only did it maybe 10 or 15 minutes at a time.
> Well it is creeping into the sighted world too somewhat; already time in
> classroom spent on cursive writing has dropped dramatically. Kids are 
> often
> are no longer graded on handwriting. And it is showing, the discussion 
> there
> has begun. Does any parent or teacher of a sighted child even consider
> though dropping early writing and waiting to introduce it until 3rd or
> fourth grade, no. Will they ever? I doubt it will be dropped totally in my
> lifetime.
> Carrie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of David Andrews
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:13 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> Richard:
>
> Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't
> necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are
> not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by
> professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started with
> slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd or 3rd
> grade, so I am very good with slate.  To do it the other way around
> guarantees that the slate will always be a second class citizen.
>
> Dave
>
> At 11:42 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>>Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>>bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>>the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>>ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>>
>>A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>>know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>>braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>>almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>>Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>>writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>>first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>>child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>>just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>>important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>>form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>>and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>>Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>>at home for free once the child is in school.
>>
>>I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>>the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>>them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>>fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>>what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>>these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>>solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>>and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>>thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>>
>>Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>>uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>>computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>>and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>>for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>>of technology in use by an early age.
>>
>>It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>>possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>>child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>>braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>>stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>>table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>>child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>>and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>>twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>>most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>>when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>>the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>>exploring the braille.
>>
>>Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>>Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>>careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>>or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>>mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>>all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>>
>>I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>>overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>>her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>>which way she wants to proceed.
>>
>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>>with her child?
>>>
>>>Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 18 22:20:32 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:20:32 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <EB313D1DC7F24412B1E3E30C78EF6012@CSMC.EDU>
References: <4b7da77b.1508c00a.04db.4586@mx.google.com>
	<EB313D1DC7F24412B1E3E30C78EF6012@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <3BF1C4B3431F4247BCE91D0A21ED6240@JkTC4D1>

I find this appalling. I also find it hard to accept that some mobility
instructors   do not introduce the cane to toddlers. These tools as well as
technologies need to be offered, introduced  and used by our blind youth, I
have heard loudly the importance of having a slate and stylus and feel I can
agree on how important a tool and or technology it is in a child's
maturation. How do we as blind mentors and parents of blind children get
that perspective  to shift in the schools. Like it has been presented here,
what level of learning and academic growth would ever be realized  if our
youth of any abilities were denied writing implements and or the written
language? That is what we are talking about here. Technologies and their
recent advent and importance in the schools are not a replacement for
writing implements  or print.  But to not include them at early stages of
development are not the best idea either. Some prefer the brailer while
others prefer the computer, some prefer the slate and stylus and others a
hand held recorder. To not introduce  all of these to our youth does not
promote choice in learning styles nor does denying any one promote  academic
enrichment. Options for learning are key and must be considered as each
individual will learn at his or her own pace, with his or her preferred
tools, with his or her own mentor or mentors and only if they choose to and
have the desire for success. 

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of DrV
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 4:17 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Quite a few of the teachers hold the belief that the slate & stylus should 
not be formally introduced and worked on until 3rd or 4th grade (& those are

the one's who are even open to teaching it). They feel it is to technically 
difficult & "confusing". It seems like the new TVI graduates are likewise 
being taught this. One certainly wonders how good & efficient the 
"penmanship" of sighted children & adults would be if pencils, pens, crayons

and markers were not introduced until 3rd or 4th grade...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:47
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Or..put another way, how many sighted children could or would want to draw
> or write if they never so much as touched a pen, pencil, marker, or crayon
> ever-at all--until age 8 or older and they learned to write solely on
> keyboard. And then only did it maybe 10 or 15 minutes at a time.
> Well it is creeping into the sighted world too somewhat; already time in
> classroom spent on cursive writing has dropped dramatically. Kids are 
> often
> are no longer graded on handwriting. And it is showing, the discussion 
> there
> has begun. Does any parent or teacher of a sighted child even consider
> though dropping early writing and waiting to introduce it until 3rd or
> fourth grade, no. Will they ever? I doubt it will be dropped totally in my
> lifetime.
> Carrie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of David Andrews
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:13 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> Richard:
>
> Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't
> necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are
> not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by
> professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started with
> slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd or 3rd
> grade, so I am very good with slate.  To do it the other way around
> guarantees that the slate will always be a second class citizen.
>
> Dave
>
> At 11:42 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>>Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>>bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>>the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>>ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>>
>>A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>>know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>>braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>>almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>>Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>>writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>>first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>>child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>>just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>>important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>>form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>>and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>>Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>>at home for free once the child is in school.
>>
>>I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>>the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>>them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>>fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>>what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>>these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>>solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>>and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>>thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>>
>>Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>>uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>>computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>>and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>>for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>>of technology in use by an early age.
>>
>>It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>>possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>>child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>>braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>>stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>>table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>>child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>>and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>>twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>>most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>>when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>>the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>>exploring the braille.
>>
>>Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>>Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>>careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>>or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>>mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>>all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>>
>>I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>>overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>>her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>>which way she wants to proceed.
>>
>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>>with her child?
>>>
>>>Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
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> ail.com
>
>
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> blindkid:
>
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et 


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From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Feb 18 22:29:40 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:29:40 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <4b7ccb87.5744f10a.7585.7b7a@mx.google.com>
References: <017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63>
	<4b7ccb87.5744f10a.7585.7b7a@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000140402571@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Carrie:

If you can send your e-mail and phone to my work address: 
david.b.andrews at state.mn.us
I will pass along to her.

Dave

At 11:09 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>Right on Mike. But also, four year old sighted kids are doing technology and
>are able to likely run the dvd player, the remote on the tv, the radio or cd
>player, dial 911 and play games at least on the computer or Wii. So the
>answers are how can she do the same things...what if any access does the
>child require, she can learn button placement and keyboard layout and number
>pad display layouts...non-visual techniques or touch technique. Maybe one of
>the free screenreaders to start exploring?
>
>You can also recommend our Saturday school to her, every third Saturday of
>the month 10am to noon at our center. One this Saturday. We have a couple of
>kindergarteners and there will be a separate parent class this time, she can
>meet other parents and start to get to know some blind adults and other
>blind children.
>
>Email me private Dave if you have questions or want to give her my phone or
>cell# or if u already have it, pass it on.
>
>Carrie
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:47 PM
>To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>A slate and stylus!
>
>Mike
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
> >I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
> >with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she had
>
> >a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up with
> >her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is
> >here  -- should she start using with her child?
> >
> > Dave




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 22:39:56 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:39:56 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000018347550@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <6EFE0E640D494F958CC13237C0366DC4@7PYZPJ1>

I agree with you that compitant, well-rounded blind people should always 
have options for when their technology poops out on them at the worst of 
times.  I know how to use a slate, I have one in my closet, but I haven't 
needed to use it in fifteen years.  If I had no option and had to use it I 
could, and I would, no pride here if it gets the job done, but the truth is 
that really very few people use it as a primary or even secondary form of 
jotting notes.  I think kids should deffinitly be taught the skill, but not 
at the sacrafice of other technologies, and it is important that the general 
public and the text books for educators keep up with the times.  I just read 
a text book, published in 2008 that asserted that all blind people use a 
slate and styalis as the primary form of communication, and used the opticon 
for reading documents.  Holy out of date bat man.  lol  I will teach Jeremy 
how to use one, but I will not force the issue.  There are somethings I will 
require that he be more than just compitant at, namely, reading braille, 
writing using a braille writer and using the basic aps. for a windows 
computer, but not using a slate.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I must respectfully disagree with you on this while acknowledging that 
>times do change.  When sighted people stop
> using a pencil, we should stop using the slate and stylus.  Too many blind 
> people are
> helpless to write down the simplest information when their technology 
> fails.  i've seen blind people keep everyone
> waiting to write down someone's phone number while they deal with 
> something unexpected with their technology.  If
> we're going to compete, we need to have options, and the slate and stylus 
> is still one.  I'm not saying it is as important as
> it once was, but to write it off is premature.  Slate and stylus and 
> modern technology are not mutually exclusive.  For a
> number of reasons, I don't know if it is right for a four-year-old 
> necessarily, but you are painting this with a pretty broad
> brush and devaluing the experience of many successful blind peopl who are 
> over fifty and are, regardless of your
> comments, keeping up with technology.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:05:04 -0500, Heather wrote:
>
>>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know,
>>children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or
>>women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, 
>>but
>>honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular 
>>basis.
>>Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they 
>>were
>>not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand 
>>and
>>sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I
>>showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For
>>confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list
>>emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that 
>>I
>>know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list
>>serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
>>students,
>>and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four
>>year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home 
>>phone
>>to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a
>>braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.
>>Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>>A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience 
>>>>is
>>>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she
>>>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep 
>>>>up
>>>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is
>>>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From ERobin8725 at aol.com  Thu Feb 18 22:44:41 2010
From: ERobin8725 at aol.com (ERobin8725 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:44:41 EST
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
Message-ID: <1564e.3648cf6e.38af1cd9@aol.com>

There are computer games that a blind toddler can play.  7-128  Software 
has a series called Pizza Games that includes three pre-school games  that are 
blind accessible.  
 
One - Here comes the Duck, has animals displaying, the name being said and  
the sound the animal makes sounds with the pressing of any key.  This is to 
 teach cause and effect on a computer keyboard. 
 
The Letters Game has the child press any letter key - the letter is said,  
an object that starts with that letter is shown and the sound associated  
with that letter is sounded.  This helps children find letters on the  
keyboard.
 
The Numbers Game is the same type of thing with the  numbers zero through 9.
 
There are the spelling game, definitions game, numbers plus and numbers  
minus games that are all blind accessible and are for school-age children.
 
These games can be seen on our website:  _www.7128.com_ 
(http://www.7128.com) 
 
Oh - and in addition, we have just released the 2010 Top 25 Website list  
for gamers who are blind.  We reviewed over 100 websites and selected the  
top 25 based on the criteria listed.  You can check this out to find out  what 
blind and VI accessible games are available and other information about  
blind gaming.
 
Eleanor Robinson
7-128 Software 
 


From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 22:58:48 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:58:48 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <98FEFFF10FA940B382B00F5C280A2FD2@7PYZPJ1>

I am glad that the slate works well for your son, really I am.  And for the 
record.  I am pretty proficent with a slate.  If I got it off the shelf 
right now I could probably get you a filled three by five card at about one 
and a quarter to one and a half the time it would take your son, and I 
haven't touched the thing in over fifteen years.  I used to use it to 
braille money, but then I just started rolling it into the brailler to do 
that.  And, I used to have a spiral bound three by five card note pad, that 
was ackward to get into the brailler, but then when I found a tiny six ring 
binder for three by fives, I ditched the slate completely.  When I was in 
school, I had enough to drag around with a brailler, a talking calculator, a 
clarinet, a cello, my cd player, my textbooks, my gym clothes, my purse and 
my lunch, that I didn't need one more thing to deal with.  Did I need to 
bring a lunch?  No, I could have bought the lunch room junk.  Did I need my 
CD player?  No, but I loved my music.  I could have carried a lap top too, 
but I prioritized with my cello.  To each their own.  Now, for fun, I think 
I will go try, for some light mental excersize.  One thing you mention makes 
me think.  Early scribbling with crayons for sighted children is usually 
developmentally appropriate practice at eighteen months to 24 months, but a 
styalis is not appropriate for an eighteen month old.  Perhaps they should 
make larger slate, perhaps for jumbo braille or in some other adaptation, 
that uses a blunter styalis, so that they can try it at that early age.  I 
know a friend who adapted a sharp tracing wheel with a guard, so that her 
fifteen month old could use it and that worked well.  My eighteen month old 
loves to play with my computer keyboard and also with my brailler.  If I 
gave him a styalis though, there would be holes in my apulstery or in my son 
within five minutes, I just know.  *smiles*  If no one minds, I would like 
to ask more developed of a survey on my blind parents list.  I asked "Do any 
of you really use a slate on a daily basis?"  I will ask "How often and for 
what do you use a slate, and how inportant do you all as blind parents feel 
that it is to teach the slate?"  I guess I may have misjudged when everyone 
responded with lols and rofls and similar when I asked if they used slates. 
Also, I will make note of who answers and who does not.  I think one mom who 
is a lawyer and two moms who are teachers posted "no" responses, but I want 
to be sure that my sample is not just the unemployed, underemployed or work 
from home moms.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Dear Heather,
> I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper Braille,
> neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or pencil. I 
> know
> hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties, thirties
> and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it, own
> Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find times 
> on
> a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
> slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
> regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions down 
> in
> interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has more
> than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at another
> place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the small 
> slate
> and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes only
> independent option. All these people only turn to this because they have
> proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that those who 
> do
> not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use. Because you
> do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that such 
> a
> strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I might 
> add
> who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them to 
> some
> degree of proficiency.
>
> As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure out 
> the
> slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given thousands of
> attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and making 
> marks.
> Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a bad 
> idea
> to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble the
> teacher might feel and is transferred.
>
> Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There is no
> reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is true 
> that
> I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and the
> slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on the
> Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate first
> (even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and then add
> the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the slate. It 
> is
> indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate "in"
> these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often "easier"
> at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
> Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to accept 
> the
> slate the longer you wait.
>
> I have known several blind students (including an international student 
> age
> 16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never did like
> the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a pen. 
> You
> use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.
>
> The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength further
> for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken to 
> learn
> to write print as well.
>
> Sincerely,
> Carrie Gilmer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know,
> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or
> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, 
> but
> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular 
> basis.
>
> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because they 
> were
> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can understand 
> and
>
> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I
> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For
> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, list
> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly say that 
> I
>
> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on a list
> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
> students,
>
> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four
> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home 
> phone
>
> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a
> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.
> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>A slate and stylus!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
>>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she
>>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up
>>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is
>>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
> er.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
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> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:06:06 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:06:06 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<f6a56b5c1002180601m20c8d42dq2aeb9c2c517f0288@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8663EE39C77A4B7EA42A587766D0C327@7PYZPJ1>

That is an excellent mixture of traditional and advanced toys.  Good for 
you.  I love the counting beans idea, as well as the creativity in your 
choices.  I am going to look for a pair of those noise safe headphones, 
thanks for letting me know about them.  I am very fortunate.  My mother 
brailled over a hundred print books for me.  I love them because they have 
the print for low vission kids and their sighted friends, the pretty 
pictures and the braille literacy component.  The twin vission books I had 
as a child, they may have changed since then, were inappropriate for solo 
reading by under fives because they could be easily torn apart and they were 
expensive.  They may have fixed this problem though, as this was over twenty 
years ago.  She brailled on the clear dimo tape and clear sheets that are 
like dimo tape and put it right into print books, and now, my son has all of 
those books to explore.  I am going to go hug my mom, just because.  It must 
have taken her hours and hours to do all of that, and as a young mother, 
still in school, I would not have nearly so many brailled picture books, if 
it wasn't for her efforts.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Harper" <sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>   Personally I prefer old fashioned manipulative's.  I have twin three and
> a half year olds.  We use many of the usual toys.  Some things I have
> adapted.  There is a pig by Fisher Price that you put the coins in and it
> gives musical feed back or counting feed back.  I also have found the 
> hooked
> on phonics hand held toys helpful in developing vocabulary with auditory
> feed back.  I find my son likes the cause and effect toys that give some
> type of feed back.  I use the Leap Frog toys.  Whenever possible I add the
> Braille words or letters.  When you are looking to add words or letters,
> make sure there is sufficient room on the game or toy to do so before
> purchasing.  My son has a Perkins Brailler, which at this point he doesn't
> use much, but I do.  He likes a kitchen set that I bought by Little Tykes
> that makes realistic sounds when pots are put on the stove or he can push
> the buttons to the microwave.  He likes the play dishes, fruits and
> vegetable, and especially likes to play with water.  I also like the
> magnetic letters with the Braille letters on them too.  We use these on 
> the
> refrigerator.
>
>    I also use on a daily basis, magic beans.  This is something I have 
> used
> for years.  I use this to teach pincer grasp for later use with fine motor
> skills.  I use a large grated cheese container with one flip up side that
> has hole and the other that opens half way.  We use red kidney beans and 
> put
> them into the hole.  Of course this requires supervision due to the 
> choking
> hazard posed by the beans.  He just loves this.   I don't know why, but he
> does.  We can count as we do this and when we are done we have a shaker we
> can use set to music.  He likes pegs, stacking blocks (I find that he does
> better with the ones that have some way to connect as it provides better
> motivation.  He can stack higher and longer.), and single piece puzzles
> (multiple piece puzzles at this point are confusing) that he can feel and
> find the spot it goes in.
>
>    My son loves music.  We have all types from lively to classic.  For
> riding in the RV, he has a Fisher Price CD player (has anti-skip built in,
> so good in vehicles), for which I purchased Fisher Price Head phones that
> has a safety feature to protect hearing.  No matter how loud the CD player
> is cranked, the head phones will only allow a safe level of sound.  So 
> when
> the others are watching videos traveling, he is listening to music or
> stories.  I blissfully am able to have a conversation with my husband in 
> the
> front.
>
>     Basically any toy that other 4 year olds like is a good thing, but may
> need a little adaptation.  So don't rule out the old fashioned stuff too
> quick.  I am sure there are more things I didn't mention than I did.
>
>     Don't forget books.  Home made ones sometimes are the best.  Books 
> with
> repetitive and rhymes are excellent.
>
>     Hope this helps!
> Blessings,
> Sue H.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
>> with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she 
>> had
>> a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up 
>> with
>> her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is there
>>  -- should she start using with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> blindkid:
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> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:21:15 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:21:15 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
	<DC2FD8D1-A716-4E73-9B72-0E0B662E2F37@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <B4F82B2124B64B719E6B9A0FEDC4A748@7PYZPJ1>

Oh, you mentioned the slow issue.  I have a fun thought.  A braille off, 
where kids on braillers compete with kids on slates.  It would be an 
interesting test.  Forgive me if that is part of the braille challenge.  I 
think that is just for braille reading, but please do correct me if I am 
wrong.  It is a toss up.  The slate is painfully slow compared to typing on 
my laptop, but I also hate waiting for word to open or to get a new document 
or folder created.  That is why I like the braille note, it is 
technologically infirior to a lap top, but light years ahead of a slate, and 
it is significantly faster than a slate or a lap top, because it's less 
complicated aps make it possible to bring up a file with three taps of the 
space bar, and no wait time for a program to open.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I actually know quite a number of blind people adults who carry these 
>around like a note pad. They are a fine solution to record a few words  or, 
>a phone number, or even a short list.
>
> They are slow and inconvenient, but they never lock up and fail to  work, 
> their batteries don't die and they don't require some involved  startup 
> procedure to get them working or require you to get into "the  right 
> document", etc. before you can use them.
>
> A slate and stylus are tools in the arsenal, so to speak. I don't  think 
> they are often the best solution for complex needs, but I would  not 
> discount their use entirely. There is nothing wrong with making  them 
> available for a child. Several of our 7-year-olds sighted friends/ 
> classmates have their own slates and styli and they actually use them  to 
> write notes to Kendra when they do not have access to  braillewriters, so 
> there are many uses for them indeed.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Heather wrote:
>
>> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I  know, 
>> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally  challenged, men or 
>> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and  could use them in a pinch, 
>> but honestly, no one uses them as a main  means of writing or on a 
>> regular basis. Some people in the fifty or  older set still rely on them, 
>> because they were not able to keep up  with the changing technology, 
>> which I can understand and sympathize  with, but even my sixty year old 
>> blind mother laughed when I showed  her this, or rather told her that 
>> this had come up on list.  For  confidentiality reasons I never show any 
>> one who is not on the list,  list emails, and never give names or any 
>> spacifics..  I could  honestly say that I know over two hundred to three 
>> hundred blind  people, and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, 
>> one for  blind parents and one for blind students, and the uunanomous 
>> answer  was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four year old would 
>> best  be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone to call 
>> his  mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a braille 
>> note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.  Things 
>> like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"  <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>>>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to  say.  A woman said 
>>>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter,  and she wanted her to 
>>>> keep up with her peers in technology, so  what assistive 
>>>> technology/technology is here  -- should she start  using with her 
>>>> child?
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:23:11 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:23:11 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><2FB490E1CA9246A7AD529057BF714FDF@D3DTZP41><F74F236B8CB14377BE04933D649840C8@7PYZPJ1>
	<03644DA025754A69B7DB5FBAC6FDAB24@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <9A4188CE078B46AD9859E64E4D789856@7PYZPJ1>

I agree with you.  There is a balance between traditional and advanced.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> However, to not include technologies in these formative years, puts 
> children
> at a serious disadvantage.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:52 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> Just FYI.  There is so much technology for infants on up.  There are
> interactive electronic jumpers, bouncers, ceeling projecters, crib 
> mobiles,
> car seat entertainers, rockers, tummy time gyms, etc.  And that is just 
> the
> 12 months and under crowd.  There are so many technologies for toddlers.
> Some are valuable, some are stunting and unneccessary, some could go 
> either
> way, depending on how they are used and presented.  It runs a range.  But 
> to
>
> say that all technology is bad is short sighted and close minded.  To say
> that all technology is benificial is ignorant and limited.  There is 
> always
> a balance.  For fun, if you are ever bored, go check out a toy store and 
> you
>
> will be surprised at the technologies you find there.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> Hello:
>>
>>     I don't think there is much technology for little kids. Sighted
>> preschoolers have access to computer games and electronic toys. I think
>> some of the LeapFrog stuff can be modified. Intelikeys could be used, but
>> I am not familiar with what is currently out there.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert Jaquiss
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:01 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience is
>>>with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said she
>>>had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to keep up
>>>with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/technology is
>>>here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthli
> nk.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
> er.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:25:38 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:25:38 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1>
	<004601cab0ae$b3a4f1d0$1aeed570$@com>
Message-ID: <C7EB8D3E17E2469C9996E10C04253A8A@7PYZPJ1>

How is flash accessable with JFW?  That sounds like a neat trick.  I am no 
computer expert, and flash always throws my JFW for a loop, but maybe I am 
just missing something.  I've coppied these sites down for future refference 
for Jeremy.  Thanks for sharing.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> We make computer games and websites accessible for children, such as this
> website: http://www.dontmesswithtexas.org/litterforce/
> (Unfortunately, I just noticed that the owners of this site have added new
> material, and none of the self-voicing audio is coming up right now. But
> children are supposed to be able to tab and press Enter to navigate this
> website, and the content is supposed to be self-voicing.)
>
> We are working on a series of educational self-voicing games for a
> touchscreen such as the iPad for younger children with a visual 
> impairment,
> such as memory games, whack-a-mole games and others. We are also working 
> on
> a website for children that can be used as a training ground for beginning
> screen reader users with all Flash games that are accessible to screen
> readers as well. If you have any suggestions for games or activities to be
> added to this site, let us know!
>
> We will announce on our website when these will roll out. You can also fan
> us on facebook for the latest news or subscribe to our twitter feed.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:47 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> My phylosophy, for all children, blind or not, is to present them with the
> widest possible range of toys, games and experiencces, and foster what 
> they
> like best.  For instance, my eighteen month old has always loved buttons.
> His favorite toys are our phone, our tellivision remote, and an old
> calculator.  So, we are replacing the old calculator with an old talking
> calculator.  We have taught him to bring us the remote, so that we can 
> take
> the batteries out, then he knows he can go and play with it.  Or, he can
> come and ask for the phone and we will disconnect the hand set so that it 
> is
>
> inactive and give it to him.  We just can't have him accidentally ordering
> paper view, he once hit random buttons and ordered some adult 
> entertainment.
>
> rofl Luckily he had also hit the mute button previously, and believe it or
> not, the people who handel the adult programming are very friendly and
> understanding.  The woman who took my call and reversed the charges 
> laughed,
>
> and told me that her daughter called India once on her cell phone and it
> cost twenty two dollars.  We also can't have him doing that, which is why 
> we
>
> take the reciever off of our corded phone for him.  He asks for "Mote" and
> "Phone" when he wants to play with these things.  He also loves our 
> talking
> kitchen timer.  So, I found mainstream play cell phone, remote, 
> calculator,
> lap top and chordless looking toys that teach four languages, shapes,
> colors, letters and numbers.  He also loves my cell phone when it is dead 
> as
>
> well as one of the video game controlers, with it's battery pack taken 
> out.
> At the beginning his thing was to just make as much noise as possible. 
> Then
>
> he started to listen for particular sounds he liked, and he would fixate 
> on
> one button at a time.  Then he started exploring the buttons with his
> tungue, then his fingers and toes.  We are finally headed out of the oral
> phase.  Thank god.  *laughs*.  Although, I do know a three year old, whose
> favorite bost right now, other than the usual three year old stuff like,
> potty training, and what he found in his nose this morning, is that he can
> read braille with his tungue.  And, he actually can.  lol  He is sighted
> too, but he knows a through l reliabily, and he loves x and o.  He says 
> they
>
> look cool.  Jeremy's other favorite thing is paper.  He used to like to 
> tare
>
> up magazines we gave him.  Now, he likes to crinckle them, and in the last
> month he has started turning pages.  He especially loves print magazines,
> board books with braille and this one old text book that we let him play
> with.  It's a print psychology text and he loves the heft of it, the
> crinckily pages and even the scent and look of it, as he is always looking
> at the smooth reflective surface of the cover, enjoying the new book smell
> by sniffing it, and enjoys the sensation of feeling the edges of all of 
> the
> pages all together when the book is closed.  He isn't ready for spiral 
> bound
>
> books yet, as he will pull them apart, but, someday.  One thing that is
> important to remember is to let blind kids, low vission and even totals
> scribble with markers, crayons, pencils and paints.  The sensation of 
> finger
>
> painting is wonderful.  Crayons can be felt a bit and it is also important
> to provide tracing templates for shapes and letters, shapes and numbers, 
> as
> well as coloring book images that have either been reco fused, or adapted
> with wicky stickx.  I would have to say that a slate and styalis is not
> anywhere near the top of my list of priorities.  I will show him one, and 
> if
>
> he loves it, he can certainly play with it and I will show him how to use
> it.  But, I am more concerned that his verbal skills be top notch, that 
> his
> braille literacy be good as well as his ability to type on a brailler type
> keyboard and a quirty keyboard.  I will also make sure he can write the
> print alphabet in upper and lower case, and his name in cursive, although 
> I
> won't insist on any more than that in script, unless he expresses an
> interest.  I am also not a big fan of the school of thought that an abacus
> is a good way to teach blind kids some beginning math concepts.  That is
> bologni.  An abacus is a good way to teach all kids math concepts.  I have
> used one to help so many sighted kids that I have tutored things like
> carrying in devision and decemil place values.  I don't think that low 
> tech
> is always best.  Technology is part of our society, that is reality.  I do
> think that kids should be given pieces of wood, blocks, cardboard tubing,
> blank paper, pots and pans, jiant cardboard boxes, etc, to enspire their
> imaginations and creativity.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a  bad
>> idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have  the
>> fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be  ready 
>> for
>
>> the whole mirror image concept.
>>
>> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a 
>> braille
>
>> novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand  and
>> finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.  Many
>> schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use  at 
>> home
>
>> for free once the child is in school.
>>
>> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all  the
>> options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to  them--
>> at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in  fact, it
>> continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on  what she 
>> seems
>
>> ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of  these things. There
>> is also an entire range of tactile graphics  solutions and manipulatives.
>> You can produce these with pipe cleaners,  and a bottle of glue, or you
>> can use a multi-thousand dollar  thermoform; quite a range of options
>> exists.
>>
>> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still 
>> uses
>
>> a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her  computer
>> and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille  and that can
>> be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see  for her is 
>> needing
>
>> to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot  of technology in use 
>> by
>
>> an early age.
>>
>> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this  child
>> runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient  braille
>> reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille  stickers
>> on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,  table, drawer,
>> oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the  child to ask
>> questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"  and later "what 
>> do
>
>> these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use  twin vision books--
>> sighted kids look at letters while parents read  most every time. Blind
>> kids can do the same-- that's why it is best  when adding braille to a
>> print book to always put the braille below  the print-- a sighted reader
>> can still read while small hands are  exploring the braille.
>>
>> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader. 
>> Things
>
>> like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be  careful 
>> that
>
>> an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten  or a PAC Mate 
>> is
>
>> not learned at the expense of being able to use a  mechanical
>> braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up  all of this
>> child's life, at least from time to time.
>>
>> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct  her
>> towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide  which 
>> way
>
>> she wants to proceed.
>>
>> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience
>>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   A woman said
>>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  wanted her to
>>> keep up with her peers in technology, so what  assistive
>>> technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  with her
>>> child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
> org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
> er.rr.com
>>
>
>
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:30:45 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:30:45 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<B188DCF1-1A1F-4E83-9E94-AD60CA3E58E6@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <A64863F4677B4C0385155FF4C2032395@7PYZPJ1>

Just fyi, the ipod touch talks and is accessible.  My friend Amanda who goes 
to NYC has one and loves it.  She also has and loves her mac book, because 
they have a built in, awsum screnereader that is free, unlike JFW, which the 
mere mention of makes my wallet squeek in fear and run away from home.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I just re-read Dave's question.
>
> I think some of us (myself included) may have missed part of his  original 
> question. The child's peers, assuming they have typical  vision, are most 
> likely seeing technology constantly. It will take a  lot more than only a 
> slate and stylus to "keep up". I guess it sort of  begs the question as to 
> what in particular she wants to keep up with  the most, but obviously 
> there will need to be braille and presumably a  cane introduced if they 
> are not already in use. (I assume the child is  able to travel typically.) 
> My point being not to overlook the obvious--
>
> If the kids are playing stories or music, it might be a library of 
> congress tape player or their newer digital system, or it might be an  mp3 
> player, and that could be a typical player with tactile buttons  (as in 
> the exact opposite of an ipod touch) or something more extreme,  like a 
> victor reader.
>
> If the kids are enjoying videos, it might be playing described videos  or 
> even conventional ones in a way the child can manage on his/her  own. The 
> technology in this case might be the adapted media itself or  simply an 
> accessible player-- maybe it is marking controls with  tactile tape and 
> avoiding flat, smooth controls. If other kids are on  the computer, it 
> might be using a screen reader like Jaws, and on and  on.
>
> I would again suggest something like her looking at the list I posted  to 
> get a better idea of what she's really trying to accomplish:
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
> There are doubtless more comprehensive lists with even more ideas  (please 
> post them if you have them), but the answer to keep up with  peers across 
> the board in technology is going to involve long-term  exposure to many 
> different adaptations and technology solutions  because that is what all 
> the other kids have around themselves  constantly...
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my  experience 
>> is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.   A woman said 
>> she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she  wanted her to 
>> keep up with her peers in technology, so what  assistive 
>> technology/technology is there  -- should she start using  with her 
>> child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
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> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:35:20 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:35:20 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <1BE73BBD3B414FA2B5F4E371FC9370E4@7PYZPJ1>

I am not jumping into the brailler vs slate thing any more than I already 
have, but I have to say that cane to get around safely and knowing how to 
dial 911 sort of trumps slate use.  Just as eating, drinking and toiliting 
skills for young children trump things like working a piece of technology. 
Someone earlier on in the thread made a very good point, that we are 
debating methods of braille, and not really talkking about methods of play, 
navigation and social learning, which are equally important.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Richard:
>
> Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't necessarily 
> agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are not good slate 
> and stylus users because it is downplayed by professionals, and they get 
> the Braille Writer first.  I started with slate first, at six and didn't 
> get a Braille Writer until 2nd or 3rd grade, so I am very good with slate. 
> To do it the other way around guarantees that the slate will always be a 
> second class citizen.
>
> Dave
>
> At 11:42 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>>Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>>bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>>the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>>ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>>
>>A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>>know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>>braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>>almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>>Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>>writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>>first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>>child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>>just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>>important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>>form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>>and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>>Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>>at home for free once the child is in school.
>>
>>I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>>the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>>them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>>fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>>what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>>these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>>solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>>and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>>thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>>
>>Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>>uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>>computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>>and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>>for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>>of technology in use by an early age.
>>
>>It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>>possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>>child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>>braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>>stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>>table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>>child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>>and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>>twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>>most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>>when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>>the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>>exploring the braille.
>>
>>Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>>Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>>careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>>or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>>mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>>all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>>
>>I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>>overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>>her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>>which way she wants to proceed.
>>
>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>>with her child?
>>>
>>>Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:42:20 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:42:20 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6DEE551E14F94F96BB8A5ADF0799BAF0@7PYZPJ1><60C126DD-2F1F-45D1-8DDF-13773D0AF222@gopbc.org><985080EC934F41D49417A5A265C34778@7PYZPJ1>
	<42369F99-D07A-4452-892F-8A346CCF66F1@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <2E3E60049AFA466AA600EAEEFDDC9FD5@7PYZPJ1>

it is frustrating to see the play abacuses for mainstream kids, because the 
beeds don't stay put.  They are just fun to slide and look at, but not 
functional.  I'd love to find a real abacus, with the larger beeds for very 
young fingers and bright colors, but with the resistance and set up to make 
them functional.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Sorry-- I was not clear on what you said. It seems we are in agreement!
>
> Maybe one day the blind abacus users can start a revolution!
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:13 PM, Heather wrote:
>
>> What I meant was that it is a shame that they are not used more with 
>> sighted kids.  They are a great tool for both.  I am used to  speaking 
>> passionately and vehemently, almost always theatrically  about issues 
>> such is this in my classes for educators, hense the  wordy and apparently 
>> confusing statement on my part.  Iapolagize.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holloway" 
>> <rholloway at gopbc.org
>> >
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
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From missheather at comcast.net  Thu Feb 18 23:41:37 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:41:37 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>

Dear Richard,
The young child has no difficulty with the mirror image concept of 
braille because he/she doesn't have one. The reason is simple. If a 
child, is taught that "l" is dot one, two, three,then, wherever the 
child is told he/she will find dot one, two, three, there they will 
push the stylus. In over 30 years of teaching young blind children to 
write braille using a slate and stylus, I have never had a child who 
experiences difficulty with reversing things. I myself was first 
taught braille as a five-year-old using a slate and stylus. I was not 
given a braille writer until third grade. I can vividly remember 
learning to write with both devises and reversals was never an issue. 
If a child clearly knows the dots required for each letter then all 
they need is to be told where to press each dot, given some practice 
and feedback and reversals are a complete non-issue. I would strongly 
encourage you to work with your daughter on developing at least basic 
competence with the slate and stylus.

This idea that writing on a slate is fraught with the problem of 
reversals is, in my experience, a problem suffered by sighted learners 
who are used to picturing things in their heads. Indeed, this very 
fact is a major reason why adult teachers don't want to teach the 
slate. They think the child will have the same problems with reversals 
that they do. But, as usual, it is plain stupid reasoning when one 
makes the jump from "I as an adult have trouble with braille and the 
slate and stylus" to "so I won't ever teach it to a blind child." I 
have met one extremely competent blind person, a braille user, who 
doesn't like the slate. Guess why? She lost her vision around age ten 
and her sighted braille teacher said that to write on the slate she 
would need to reverse everything in her head. What an impossible and 
totally unnecessary task. Of course no one could achieve any speed or 
accuracy using that method, and, after such torture, would not have 
any fondness for the slate and stylus.

But, even if a young blind child did experience some initial trouble 
with reversals when writing on the slate, does this mean that the 
child should be deprived of the nonvisual equivalent of a pen or 
pencil? Just because some young print writers sometimes write "b" and 
"d" or "q" and "p" the wrong way, do early childhood teachers across 
the nation abandon the use of pencil and paper for young sighted 
children? Of course not and no one would be so irresponsible as to 
suggest that we do so. Yet, this is largely what has happened 
regarding the slate and stylus. The decline in slate usage was aided 
by the rise of the "print at any cost" philosophy among sighted 
teachers of children with low vision. Though many of these children 
were Functionally Blind, they were told to use what sight they had. 
completely nonfunctional strategies, such as the following, were, and 
still are, taught to children with low vision. "well, you can use 
print because, provided you have the right lighting, a very specific 
kind of very dark ink pen, the correct dark line paper, can write 
slowly and are not having trouble with eye-strain today, you're a 
print reader. You don't need braille and certainly don't need a slate 
and stylus to take notes." The fact that many of these students never 
manage to write fast enough and rarely experience the perfect 
conditions required to enable them to cmpete on equal terms with their 
sighted peers/colleagues, does not appear to be a concern to the 
teachers taking this stand. Somehow, in some strange, deep part of the 
human psyche, having the student act sighted and using print, even 
when they can't read what they write, when the student is complaining 
of eye-strain and head-aches and print is not working for a student, 
seems to be preferable to calling a child blind and giving them 
totally competitive tools, like a slate and stylus and braille. Sadly, 
because of the misconceptions about blindness, many parents would 
rather have a print using pretend sighted child than a real, braille 
using blind child as well.

Why have I gone onto my antiprint rant you may ask? Because I believe 
that there are psychological reasons, such as seeing the slate as 
old-fashioned and low tech, too hard, too slow, too blind, and too 
hard to teach, that influence teachers who don't or won't teach it to 
today's blind children. There's no real data on slate usage among 
those who are profficient users. I've never seen a survey seeking real 
data on the value, or nonvalue, of slate and stylus to blind people. 
Yet, somehow the decision that slate skills are no longer necessary 
has been made.
This is sheer foolishness, the kind of logic that says because we can 
now drive cars we don't need bicycles, or because we have replaced the 
outdoor Main Street shopping experience with indoor shopping malls, we 
don't need umbrellas.

I cannot imagine the innumerable inconveniences I would experience 
without recourse to my slate. I Write shopping lists on the bus, I 
take notes quietly in meetings, I jot down phone numbers and addresses 
of new contacts, I write or retrieve information in extremely noisy 
environments with ease, I have quickly made notes for an impromptu 
meeting, written down doses and instructions at the doctor's, copied 
out a recipe I found in a magazine in the dentist's waiting-room, 
noted the name and number of taxi drivers whom I wished to report for 
good or bad reasons, written down info a bus or train clerk gave me on 
my next connection, and who knows what I may still use it to write. 
The
possibilities are endless... rather like the excuses that people give 
why young children should be denied the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity 
to learn to be competent slate users.

As for technology for a young child, it depends on many factors but 
should include games and teaching/learning devices that offer the same 
exposure to the concept of what techology is and does that sighted 
children are given. The child's preferences, parents' preferences and 
the available budget as well as the co-operation of local educators 
are all factors that will influcnce choices.

Warmest regards,

Heather Field
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
ready for the whole mirror image concept.

A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
at home for free once the child is in school.

I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
thermoform; quite a range of options exists.

Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
of technology in use by an early age.

It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
exploring the braille.

Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
all of this child's life, at least from time to time.

I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
which way she wants to proceed.

http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm


Richard




On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:

> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
> with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org


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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Feb 18 23:45:12 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:45:12 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<348644F6-783B-4A35-8EDE-003050F8C2EF@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <EC6E2CDE400E45A3980C8050431C30F9@7PYZPJ1>

I like your bluntness.  Pens and pencils are second class citizens in terms 
of productivity, but we should always have one on hand.  I wanted to say 
"But, the slate is a second class citizen to a lap top" but I was afraid I 
would start getting mail boms made out of tnt and tomatos if I kept on. 
Actually, I think a blind kid should always carry a pen as well.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> My main basis for that is that our daughter still struggles with the 
> slate and stylus even with a good deal of exposure while she excels  with 
> the brailler, PacMate, Braillenote, etc., and will soon (I  suspect) begin 
> to master the qwerty options as well She seems to have  trouble with 
> precise placement of the stylus to hit the right dot. I  do suspect if it 
> were her only option, she's be better at it, but at  the same time, she 
> can pretty well braille as fast as she might  dictate a letter. I cannot 
> imagine a first grader (or anyone for that  matter) who can do that with a 
> slate.
>
> Again, I'm working with direct history from a sample of one child.   (Your 
> mileage may vary!)
>
> I can say this with some certainty though-- my pens & pencils will  always 
> be second class citizens to my laptop and the reality is that  I'm, 
> probably 10 or 20 times more productive with a laptop than a pen  and 
> paper so I have no problem with that. Do any of us these days work  better 
> without a computer? For myself, I draw the line at not having  the pen & 
> paper / slate & stylus option available at all; that is  dangerous.
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:13 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> Richard:
>>
>> Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't  necessarily 
>> agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are  not good slate 
>> and stylus users because it is downplayed by  professionals, and they get 
>> the Braille Writer first.  I started  with slate first, at six and didn't 
>> get a Braille Writer until 2nd  or 3rd grade, so I am very good with 
>> slate.  To do it the other way  around guarantees that the slate will 
>> always be a second class  citizen.
>>
>> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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From albert at myblindspot.org  Fri Feb 19 01:15:04 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:15:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
Message-ID: <5DA8F43793074E069630137ABA736E15@JkTC4D1>

I do not even know where to begin. First wow! these few  threads have given
me more insight and have shifted my position on things as never before. 1. I
am sickened by the fact that braille is not introduced to children at as
early an age as possible. 2. I have learned how mentors can  color choices
by predetermining  what is or is not best for children and unintentionally
limit that children's academic growth. 3. I learned braille as a sighted
person and I too was forced to believe that writing braile with a slate and
stylus was best learned by inverting  or perverting braille as I now have
learned. In this one thread I understood and now own why I do not and
eventually will carry a slate and stylus as I was inverting or reversing the
image. when I used my perkins brailler I see the dots on the page just as I
would feel them as I ran my fingers across the page. Now I realize that is
what keeps me from using a slate. I either use a hand held recorder which
unnerves others, or as I recently experienced  an intern of mine only uses
his computer. We were in a meeting and he did nothing but tap tap tap on the
computer. I had to stop him and ask him if he was paying attention or not.
He told me that he was taking notes. I knew he had to be missing much of the
important   conversation that was going on. I immediately  suggested he
invest in a hand held recorder. He is 26, and has been blind all his life.
My senior in a way. yet he did not take notes with braille as I later
learned he was not expected to know it for some reason. now I learned
braille as a sighted individual he learned it as a blind individual, yet
neither of us used it to take notes quietly and unobtrusively which is
always possible with a slate and stylus. I will most certainly be trying to
walk the walk and talk the talk and use my slate more then my handheld. Very
sobering  and eye opening thread.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of H. Field
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:42 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Dear Richard,
The young child has no difficulty with the mirror image concept of 
braille because he/she doesn't have one. The reason is simple. If a 
child, is taught that "l" is dot one, two, three,then, wherever the 
child is told he/she will find dot one, two, three, there they will 
push the stylus. In over 30 years of teaching young blind children to 
write braille using a slate and stylus, I have never had a child who 
experiences difficulty with reversing things. I myself was first 
taught braille as a five-year-old using a slate and stylus. I was not 
given a braille writer until third grade. I can vividly remember 
learning to write with both devises and reversals was never an issue. 
If a child clearly knows the dots required for each letter then all 
they need is to be told where to press each dot, given some practice 
and feedback and reversals are a complete non-issue. I would strongly 
encourage you to work with your daughter on developing at least basic 
competence with the slate and stylus.

This idea that writing on a slate is fraught with the problem of 
reversals is, in my experience, a problem suffered by sighted learners 
who are used to picturing things in their heads. Indeed, this very 
fact is a major reason why adult teachers don't want to teach the 
slate. They think the child will have the same problems with reversals 
that they do. But, as usual, it is plain stupid reasoning when one 
makes the jump from "I as an adult have trouble with braille and the 
slate and stylus" to "so I won't ever teach it to a blind child." I 
have met one extremely competent blind person, a braille user, who 
doesn't like the slate. Guess why? She lost her vision around age ten 
and her sighted braille teacher said that to write on the slate she 
would need to reverse everything in her head. What an impossible and 
totally unnecessary task. Of course no one could achieve any speed or 
accuracy using that method, and, after such torture, would not have 
any fondness for the slate and stylus.

But, even if a young blind child did experience some initial trouble 
with reversals when writing on the slate, does this mean that the 
child should be deprived of the nonvisual equivalent of a pen or 
pencil? Just because some young print writers sometimes write "b" and 
"d" or "q" and "p" the wrong way, do early childhood teachers across 
the nation abandon the use of pencil and paper for young sighted 
children? Of course not and no one would be so irresponsible as to 
suggest that we do so. Yet, this is largely what has happened 
regarding the slate and stylus. The decline in slate usage was aided 
by the rise of the "print at any cost" philosophy among sighted 
teachers of children with low vision. Though many of these children 
were Functionally Blind, they were told to use what sight they had. 
completely nonfunctional strategies, such as the following, were, and 
still are, taught to children with low vision. "well, you can use 
print because, provided you have the right lighting, a very specific 
kind of very dark ink pen, the correct dark line paper, can write 
slowly and are not having trouble with eye-strain today, you're a 
print reader. You don't need braille and certainly don't need a slate 
and stylus to take notes." The fact that many of these students never 
manage to write fast enough and rarely experience the perfect 
conditions required to enable them to cmpete on equal terms with their 
sighted peers/colleagues, does not appear to be a concern to the 
teachers taking this stand. Somehow, in some strange, deep part of the 
human psyche, having the student act sighted and using print, even 
when they can't read what they write, when the student is complaining 
of eye-strain and head-aches and print is not working for a student, 
seems to be preferable to calling a child blind and giving them 
totally competitive tools, like a slate and stylus and braille. Sadly, 
because of the misconceptions about blindness, many parents would 
rather have a print using pretend sighted child than a real, braille 
using blind child as well.

Why have I gone onto my antiprint rant you may ask? Because I believe 
that there are psychological reasons, such as seeing the slate as 
old-fashioned and low tech, too hard, too slow, too blind, and too 
hard to teach, that influence teachers who don't or won't teach it to 
today's blind children. There's no real data on slate usage among 
those who are profficient users. I've never seen a survey seeking real 
data on the value, or nonvalue, of slate and stylus to blind people. 
Yet, somehow the decision that slate skills are no longer necessary 
has been made.
This is sheer foolishness, the kind of logic that says because we can 
now drive cars we don't need bicycles, or because we have replaced the 
outdoor Main Street shopping experience with indoor shopping malls, we 
don't need umbrellas.

I cannot imagine the innumerable inconveniences I would experience 
without recourse to my slate. I Write shopping lists on the bus, I 
take notes quietly in meetings, I jot down phone numbers and addresses 
of new contacts, I write or retrieve information in extremely noisy 
environments with ease, I have quickly made notes for an impromptu 
meeting, written down doses and instructions at the doctor's, copied 
out a recipe I found in a magazine in the dentist's waiting-room, 
noted the name and number of taxi drivers whom I wished to report for 
good or bad reasons, written down info a bus or train clerk gave me on 
my next connection, and who knows what I may still use it to write. 
The
possibilities are endless... rather like the excuses that people give 
why young children should be denied the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity 
to learn to be competent slate users.

As for technology for a young child, it depends on many factors but 
should include games and teaching/learning devices that offer the same 
exposure to the concept of what techology is and does that sighted 
children are given. The child's preferences, parents' preferences and 
the available budget as well as the co-operation of local educators 
are all factors that will influcnce choices.

Warmest regards,

Heather Field
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
ready for the whole mirror image concept.

A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
at home for free once the child is in school.

I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
thermoform; quite a range of options exists.

Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
of technology in use by an early age.

It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
exploring the braille.

Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
all of this child's life, at least from time to time.

I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
which way she wants to proceed.

http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm


Richard




On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:

> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
> with her child?
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> for blindkid:
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From attorneywalker at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 01:08:04 2010
From: attorneywalker at gmail.com (Carlton Anne Cook Walker)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:08:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Of the Slate and Stylus
Message-ID: <aa85e5851002181708j4eecfa1epec3167b64cad6d78@mail.gmail.com>

Just my two cents being thrown in . . .

I, too, know many blind adults who are wonderfully proficient at the slate
and stylus.  As a new teacher of students who blind/visually impaired, I
have not seen the same level of proficiency in our youth.

I believe that the slate and stylus are invaluable tools to secure
independence and self-sufficiency for individuals who read braille.  One of
my students, who just turned 16, is a proficient braille reader and writer.
She learned on the Perkins brailler and moved to a BrailleNote around 4th
grade.

Unfortunately, this student absolutely hates the Perkins brailler (I'm not
certain why, but it seems to have something to do with being "forced to
carry one around school and between mom's home and dad's home.  Whatever the
reason, it is almost impossible to get her to use the brailler.)  This
student became COMPLETELY reliant on her BrailleNote.

Like many students, she had never been introduced to the slate and stylus.
I secured several different kinds of slates (Janus, postcard, 4-line,
Brown), and we got started.

Guess what?  She LOVES the slate.  She carries around 2-3 at all times and
is even coming up with new and more uses for the slate -- like most
teenagers, she accepts ideas better when she comes up with them :)


Now, her previous TVI is a great teacher -- she thoroughly taught this
student the braille code.  She provided up-to-date technology for this
student.  But she did not take into account building a reliable toolbox for
her student.  (This student is also learning to sign her name now -- she had
no concept of print or cursive letters or of print numbers when she became
my student this past August.)


As a parent of a child who is blind, the future is always on my mind.  Would
this tool be useful to my student?  How can I make the instruction
meaningful for my student?  How can I best prepare my student NOT to need me
anymore?

We must take care to refrain from withholding any tools just because we
might not like/understand them.


Carlton


-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker, NCLB
105 Creamery Road
Boiling Springs, PA    17007
Voice: 717-658-9894
Twitter: braillemom


From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 01:21:17 2010
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:21:17 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <auto-000140378808@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <4b7de78f.5544f10a.62c9.0c67@mx.google.com>

I would also add that arguments mentioning some "dangerousness" or
destructiveness of the stylus to young children I find ridiculous. Typical
parents let toddlers write with a sharp pencil or try a scissors or eat with
a fork, but they do not let the child run around the house with it. The
child learns under supervision. To cite this at all as a reason for not
giving slate opportunities early is just nonsense in my mind.

It may well be true that "many" blind people do not use the slate, many have
not had the opportunity to gain skill with it. Those who have often are glad
for it. And I really hope someone will pick up on Miss Heather Field's
point~another area of no real researched data in the education of blind
children. 

Carrie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:48 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Heather:

I hate getting into this (smile) because everybody won't agree, but .....

First I must ask you and others to treat the opinions and positions 
of others with more respect.  While they may be different from yours, 
the people who state them presumably have good reasons for stating 
them, as do you.

Next, I find your generalizations about the slate to be disturbing 
and depressing.  I don't know you, or your place in life, but I would 
guess you are a sighted person, possibly with a blind child.  You 
mention a blind Mother.

Would you, as a sighted person give up a pencil or pen and paper.  I 
doubt it.  While you may not use them all the time, when you need 
them, nothing else will do.  This is in part what the slate and 
stylus are for blind persons.  Yes, many people, including blind 
persons will put them down, but I suspect that in many instances they 
have not been taught well, so are minimized.  While we teach kids to 
write with a pencil before e giving them a computer as a primary 
tool, we think nothing about having them learn to write with a 
Braille Writer, then give them a slate.  Who would want it then.

I am one of those over-50 persons you mention.  I use the slate 
regularly, as I also use technology.  I have used technology heavily 
since the early 80's, and was the first Director of the NFB's 
International Braille and Technology Center, and still make my living 
with technology.  So, I don't think you can plausibly say I couldn't 
adjust to technology.  Likewise, Mike  Freeman who wrote the original 
message which you seemed to hold in such disdain has been a computer 
programmer since the early 80's I think, uses talking cell phone, 
Braille Sense, etc.  We love our technology, but want to have all 
possible tools available to us, including the slate.

A couple years ago, I attended a training session, costing over 
$500.  It was Minnesota and the winter and I slipped and fell, on the 
ice, on my way there.  When I got there, I discovered my Pac Mate 
wouldn't work.  So, if I hadn't also had a slate and stylus and been 
proficient with their use, it would have been $500 down the drain 
because I couldn't take notes.

Blind people need all the tools we can get, and we need to use the 
right one at the right time.  That includes the slate and stylus 
which is good for quick notes, in emergencies, where there is no 
electricity or when batteries are dead, and much more.

Dave


At 07:05 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I 
>know, children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally 
>challenged, men or women use those anymore.  Many own them, and 
>could use them in a pinch, but honestly, no one uses them as a main 
>means of writing or on a regular basis. Some people in the fifty or 
>older set still rely on them, because they were not able to keep up 
>with the changing technology, which I can understand and sympathize 
>with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I showed 
>her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For 
>confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, 
>list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could 
>honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind 
>people, and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for 
>blind parents and one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer 
>was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four year old would best 
>be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone to call his 
>mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a braille 
>note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch. 
>Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>A slate and stylus!
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my 
>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to 
>>>say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, 
>>>and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so 
>>>what assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start 
>>>using with her child?
>>>
>>>Dave


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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 01:24:52 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:24:52 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
Message-ID: <A78E2F71011F44868E345FA682BBE3BC@7PYZPJ1>

Wow, what a long post.  I love it, as I usually write very long posts my 
self and feel out of place when others are jotting down one paragraph 
responses.  A lot of good points and some points I do want to address.  For 
one thing, we are not taking into account the most important thing here, 
which is not a blind or sighted child, it is the sort of learner they are. 
It outrages me when educators start discussing multiple intelligences and 
different learning styles and jump right to, Deaf children are always visual 
learners, and Gardiner's strongest multiple intelligences for them are 
visual spacial and bodily kenesthetic.  And that blind kids are all auditory 
learners, and their strongest multiple intelligences are verbal linguistic 
and interpersonal.  Bull----.  I am blind and I am a visual learner, which 
means that I cope in ways that many sighted people would be very confused 
by.  Of the see it, say it, write it school of thought for learning facts 
and spelling words, I was the see it person, then the write it, then the say 
it.  So visual, which can be in your head or tactially, not just with the 
eyes, then physical, the write it.  I have had to develop good verbal skills 
and auditory skills, as a blind individual, but were I sighted, they nmight 
not be nearly so strong.  I know deaf people who are clutses in their 
everyday lives and in their signing, so, not bodily kenesthetic, and who are 
not inharrently visual learners.  There are also blind kids with deslexia 
for whom a slate and styalis would be like the seventh circle of hell.  As a 
visual learner I did not do well with these dots make up that letter.  Not 
because I wasn't taught.  My TVIs were open-minded, well-rounded and taught 
me many technologies in many ways, but for me the P is like a print P, the X 
is like a print equals sign, the word many is a moved over L then an M. 
And, it is not because I am not intelligent, I can figure out in less than a 
second that W is dots 2, 4,5,6, but it has never come easily to me, because 
I am a visual learner.  Auditory learners tend to prefer screnereaders, 
visual learners tend to prefer braillenotes, braille displays and perkins 
braillers, and physical learners tend to prefer, I am sure slates and 
braillers to computers, and so on and so forth.  Even at the beginning of 
this whole discussion, I never and many others, never said, that the slate 
should not be taught at all, but rather, they questioned that perhaps it was 
not entirely appropriate for a four year old, and also begged that games, 
books and toys are more important socially and emotionally and 
developmentally at this age.  One more thing.  My mother was once sitting at 
a lecture at a camp for blind children and their families that was hosted in 
Cleveland Ohio, when this guest speaker woman got up and started preaching 
that anti braille crapola to a room of well-intentioned, but in the matters 
of technologies and adaptation, ignorant sighted parents.  My mom got up and 
told her that she was full of, insert four letter word, and that if she told 
parents this, they would be sentensing their children to a life of perfectly 
avoidable hardship, frustration and achievement far below their individual 
potentials.  She told them that it is more stigmatizing to not be compitant 
in school or a job, or to not even be in a school or a job, than to stand 
out a bit because they use braille.  The lady tried to keep talking, but the 
other parents made her leave, and asked my mom, the only blind parent there 
questions for over an hour, and she, was the one who laughed when I 
mentioned a slate to her.  She has one, can use it quite well, but rarely 
does.  Point being, just because someone isn't over the moon for the slate 
does not mean that they do not value braille literacy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Dear Richard,
> The young child has no difficulty with the mirror image concept of
> braille because he/she doesn't have one. The reason is simple. If a
> child, is taught that "l" is dot one, two, three,then, wherever the
> child is told he/she will find dot one, two, three, there they will
> push the stylus. In over 30 years of teaching young blind children to
> write braille using a slate and stylus, I have never had a child who
> experiences difficulty with reversing things. I myself was first
> taught braille as a five-year-old using a slate and stylus. I was not
> given a braille writer until third grade. I can vividly remember
> learning to write with both devises and reversals was never an issue.
> If a child clearly knows the dots required for each letter then all
> they need is to be told where to press each dot, given some practice
> and feedback and reversals are a complete non-issue. I would strongly
> encourage you to work with your daughter on developing at least basic
> competence with the slate and stylus.
>
> This idea that writing on a slate is fraught with the problem of
> reversals is, in my experience, a problem suffered by sighted learners
> who are used to picturing things in their heads. Indeed, this very
> fact is a major reason why adult teachers don't want to teach the
> slate. They think the child will have the same problems with reversals
> that they do. But, as usual, it is plain stupid reasoning when one
> makes the jump from "I as an adult have trouble with braille and the
> slate and stylus" to "so I won't ever teach it to a blind child." I
> have met one extremely competent blind person, a braille user, who
> doesn't like the slate. Guess why? She lost her vision around age ten
> and her sighted braille teacher said that to write on the slate she
> would need to reverse everything in her head. What an impossible and
> totally unnecessary task. Of course no one could achieve any speed or
> accuracy using that method, and, after such torture, would not have
> any fondness for the slate and stylus.
>
> But, even if a young blind child did experience some initial trouble
> with reversals when writing on the slate, does this mean that the
> child should be deprived of the nonvisual equivalent of a pen or
> pencil? Just because some young print writers sometimes write "b" and
> "d" or "q" and "p" the wrong way, do early childhood teachers across
> the nation abandon the use of pencil and paper for young sighted
> children? Of course not and no one would be so irresponsible as to
> suggest that we do so. Yet, this is largely what has happened
> regarding the slate and stylus. The decline in slate usage was aided
> by the rise of the "print at any cost" philosophy among sighted
> teachers of children with low vision. Though many of these children
> were Functionally Blind, they were told to use what sight they had.
> completely nonfunctional strategies, such as the following, were, and
> still are, taught to children with low vision. "well, you can use
> print because, provided you have the right lighting, a very specific
> kind of very dark ink pen, the correct dark line paper, can write
> slowly and are not having trouble with eye-strain today, you're a
> print reader. You don't need braille and certainly don't need a slate
> and stylus to take notes." The fact that many of these students never
> manage to write fast enough and rarely experience the perfect
> conditions required to enable them to cmpete on equal terms with their
> sighted peers/colleagues, does not appear to be a concern to the
> teachers taking this stand. Somehow, in some strange, deep part of the
> human psyche, having the student act sighted and using print, even
> when they can't read what they write, when the student is complaining
> of eye-strain and head-aches and print is not working for a student,
> seems to be preferable to calling a child blind and giving them
> totally competitive tools, like a slate and stylus and braille. Sadly,
> because of the misconceptions about blindness, many parents would
> rather have a print using pretend sighted child than a real, braille
> using blind child as well.
>
> Why have I gone onto my antiprint rant you may ask? Because I believe
> that there are psychological reasons, such as seeing the slate as
> old-fashioned and low tech, too hard, too slow, too blind, and too
> hard to teach, that influence teachers who don't or won't teach it to
> today's blind children. There's no real data on slate usage among
> those who are profficient users. I've never seen a survey seeking real
> data on the value, or nonvalue, of slate and stylus to blind people.
> Yet, somehow the decision that slate skills are no longer necessary
> has been made.
> This is sheer foolishness, the kind of logic that says because we can
> now drive cars we don't need bicycles, or because we have replaced the
> outdoor Main Street shopping experience with indoor shopping malls, we
> don't need umbrellas.
>
> I cannot imagine the innumerable inconveniences I would experience
> without recourse to my slate. I Write shopping lists on the bus, I
> take notes quietly in meetings, I jot down phone numbers and addresses
> of new contacts, I write or retrieve information in extremely noisy
> environments with ease, I have quickly made notes for an impromptu
> meeting, written down doses and instructions at the doctor's, copied
> out a recipe I found in a magazine in the dentist's waiting-room,
> noted the name and number of taxi drivers whom I wished to report for
> good or bad reasons, written down info a bus or train clerk gave me on
> my next connection, and who knows what I may still use it to write.
> The
> possibilities are endless... rather like the excuses that people give
> why young children should be denied the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity
> to learn to be competent slate users.
>
> As for technology for a young child, it depends on many factors but
> should include games and teaching/learning devices that offer the same
> exposure to the concept of what techology is and does that sighted
> children are given. The child's preferences, parents' preferences and
> the available budget as well as the co-operation of local educators
> are all factors that will influcnce choices.
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Heather Field
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
> bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
> the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
> ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>
> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
> braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
> and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
> Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
> at home for free once the child is in school.
>
> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
> the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
> them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
> fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
> what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
> these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
> solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
> and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
> thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>
> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
> uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
> computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
> and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
> for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
> of technology in use by an early age.
>
> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
> child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
> braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
> stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
> table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
> child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
> and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
> twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
> most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
> when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
> the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
> exploring the braille.
>
> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
> Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
> careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
> or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
> mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
> all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>
> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
> her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
> which way she wants to proceed.
>
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>> with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 01:31:12 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:31:12 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
	<5DA8F43793074E069630137ABA736E15@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <C9DBC6131B76435E842C05E28E80929A@7PYZPJ1>

Several people have brought up the reversal issue and I think it depends on 
the age it is introduced, because for someone who already knows braille it 
might literally mean reversing the letters, whereas if a kid learns it in 
kindergardin both brailler and slate might become second nature.  Bottom 
line, as a home educator of my own son I would show him both, and if he took 
to the slate like a duck to water, i would encourage him, but if it 
frustrated him to the point where he wanted nothing to do with braille or 
the perkins, it would be put on hold.  I would like him to be proficent at 
both, but I want him to naturally love reading both in braille and on 
recorded media, and if pushing a particular skill looked as if it would harm 
that natural love of learning, especially learning literature and braille, I 
would not allow that to happen.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I do not even know where to begin. First wow! these few  threads have given
> me more insight and have shifted my position on things as never before. 1. 
> I
> am sickened by the fact that braille is not introduced to children at as
> early an age as possible. 2. I have learned how mentors can  color choices
> by predetermining  what is or is not best for children and unintentionally
> limit that children's academic growth. 3. I learned braille as a sighted
> person and I too was forced to believe that writing braile with a slate 
> and
> stylus was best learned by inverting  or perverting braille as I now have
> learned. In this one thread I understood and now own why I do not and
> eventually will carry a slate and stylus as I was inverting or reversing 
> the
> image. when I used my perkins brailler I see the dots on the page just as 
> I
> would feel them as I ran my fingers across the page. Now I realize that is
> what keeps me from using a slate. I either use a hand held recorder which
> unnerves others, or as I recently experienced  an intern of mine only uses
> his computer. We were in a meeting and he did nothing but tap tap tap on 
> the
> computer. I had to stop him and ask him if he was paying attention or not.
> He told me that he was taking notes. I knew he had to be missing much of 
> the
> important   conversation that was going on. I immediately  suggested he
> invest in a hand held recorder. He is 26, and has been blind all his life.
> My senior in a way. yet he did not take notes with braille as I later
> learned he was not expected to know it for some reason. now I learned
> braille as a sighted individual he learned it as a blind individual, yet
> neither of us used it to take notes quietly and unobtrusively which is
> always possible with a slate and stylus. I will most certainly be trying 
> to
> walk the walk and talk the talk and use my slate more then my handheld. 
> Very
> sobering  and eye opening thread.
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of H. Field
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:42 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> Dear Richard,
> The young child has no difficulty with the mirror image concept of
> braille because he/she doesn't have one. The reason is simple. If a
> child, is taught that "l" is dot one, two, three,then, wherever the
> child is told he/she will find dot one, two, three, there they will
> push the stylus. In over 30 years of teaching young blind children to
> write braille using a slate and stylus, I have never had a child who
> experiences difficulty with reversing things. I myself was first
> taught braille as a five-year-old using a slate and stylus. I was not
> given a braille writer until third grade. I can vividly remember
> learning to write with both devises and reversals was never an issue.
> If a child clearly knows the dots required for each letter then all
> they need is to be told where to press each dot, given some practice
> and feedback and reversals are a complete non-issue. I would strongly
> encourage you to work with your daughter on developing at least basic
> competence with the slate and stylus.
>
> This idea that writing on a slate is fraught with the problem of
> reversals is, in my experience, a problem suffered by sighted learners
> who are used to picturing things in their heads. Indeed, this very
> fact is a major reason why adult teachers don't want to teach the
> slate. They think the child will have the same problems with reversals
> that they do. But, as usual, it is plain stupid reasoning when one
> makes the jump from "I as an adult have trouble with braille and the
> slate and stylus" to "so I won't ever teach it to a blind child." I
> have met one extremely competent blind person, a braille user, who
> doesn't like the slate. Guess why? She lost her vision around age ten
> and her sighted braille teacher said that to write on the slate she
> would need to reverse everything in her head. What an impossible and
> totally unnecessary task. Of course no one could achieve any speed or
> accuracy using that method, and, after such torture, would not have
> any fondness for the slate and stylus.
>
> But, even if a young blind child did experience some initial trouble
> with reversals when writing on the slate, does this mean that the
> child should be deprived of the nonvisual equivalent of a pen or
> pencil? Just because some young print writers sometimes write "b" and
> "d" or "q" and "p" the wrong way, do early childhood teachers across
> the nation abandon the use of pencil and paper for young sighted
> children? Of course not and no one would be so irresponsible as to
> suggest that we do so. Yet, this is largely what has happened
> regarding the slate and stylus. The decline in slate usage was aided
> by the rise of the "print at any cost" philosophy among sighted
> teachers of children with low vision. Though many of these children
> were Functionally Blind, they were told to use what sight they had.
> completely nonfunctional strategies, such as the following, were, and
> still are, taught to children with low vision. "well, you can use
> print because, provided you have the right lighting, a very specific
> kind of very dark ink pen, the correct dark line paper, can write
> slowly and are not having trouble with eye-strain today, you're a
> print reader. You don't need braille and certainly don't need a slate
> and stylus to take notes." The fact that many of these students never
> manage to write fast enough and rarely experience the perfect
> conditions required to enable them to cmpete on equal terms with their
> sighted peers/colleagues, does not appear to be a concern to the
> teachers taking this stand. Somehow, in some strange, deep part of the
> human psyche, having the student act sighted and using print, even
> when they can't read what they write, when the student is complaining
> of eye-strain and head-aches and print is not working for a student,
> seems to be preferable to calling a child blind and giving them
> totally competitive tools, like a slate and stylus and braille. Sadly,
> because of the misconceptions about blindness, many parents would
> rather have a print using pretend sighted child than a real, braille
> using blind child as well.
>
> Why have I gone onto my antiprint rant you may ask? Because I believe
> that there are psychological reasons, such as seeing the slate as
> old-fashioned and low tech, too hard, too slow, too blind, and too
> hard to teach, that influence teachers who don't or won't teach it to
> today's blind children. There's no real data on slate usage among
> those who are profficient users. I've never seen a survey seeking real
> data on the value, or nonvalue, of slate and stylus to blind people.
> Yet, somehow the decision that slate skills are no longer necessary
> has been made.
> This is sheer foolishness, the kind of logic that says because we can
> now drive cars we don't need bicycles, or because we have replaced the
> outdoor Main Street shopping experience with indoor shopping malls, we
> don't need umbrellas.
>
> I cannot imagine the innumerable inconveniences I would experience
> without recourse to my slate. I Write shopping lists on the bus, I
> take notes quietly in meetings, I jot down phone numbers and addresses
> of new contacts, I write or retrieve information in extremely noisy
> environments with ease, I have quickly made notes for an impromptu
> meeting, written down doses and instructions at the doctor's, copied
> out a recipe I found in a magazine in the dentist's waiting-room,
> noted the name and number of taxi drivers whom I wished to report for
> good or bad reasons, written down info a bus or train clerk gave me on
> my next connection, and who knows what I may still use it to write.
> The
> possibilities are endless... rather like the excuses that people give
> why young children should be denied the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity
> to learn to be competent slate users.
>
> As for technology for a young child, it depends on many factors but
> should include games and teaching/learning devices that offer the same
> exposure to the concept of what techology is and does that sighted
> children are given. The child's preferences, parents' preferences and
> the available budget as well as the co-operation of local educators
> are all factors that will influcnce choices.
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Heather Field
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
> bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
> the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
> ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>
> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
> braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
> and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
> Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
> at home for free once the child is in school.
>
> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
> the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
> them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
> fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
> what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
> these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
> solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
> and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
> thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>
> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
> uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
> computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
> and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
> for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
> of technology in use by an early age.
>
> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
> child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
> braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
> stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
> table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
> child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
> and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
> twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
> most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
> when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
> the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
> exploring the braille.
>
> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
> Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
> careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
> or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
> mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
> all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>
> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
> her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
> which way she wants to proceed.
>
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>> with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
> org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comc
> ast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 01:41:50 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:41:50 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <4b7de78f.5544f10a.62c9.0c67@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <86EB438DFD7448BE99B3FFCEDDD30B01@7PYZPJ1>

Ah, that one I think is not a blindness issue, it is an educational style 
issue.  I do supervise my son with a fork, and at eighteen months I would 
never in a million years give him scizzors or a sharp pencil, crayons yes, 
scizzors, no.  I believe in the value of exploratory play, that is not uber 
closely supervising all learning, so that children can discover for 
themselves, a balance of guided and free play.  I think anyone could sit 
there and get into a battle of wills with an eighteen month old to try and 
get them not to hurt them self with the styalis or destroy anything and 
maybe they'd even get into the wholes, but at what cost?  A battle of wills 
with a toddler is counter productive, a three or four with supervision is 
different.  I am of the school of thought that, you should not lock lower 
cabinets with dangerous chemicals in them with baby locks, you should move 
those to high cabinets and leave the lower cabinets unlocked with pots and 
pans and other safe things in them so that the child can explore and learn 
naturally.  We in the early childhood profession call it setting children up 
for success.  By that same token I give him things that he is interested in, 
in a safe form.  Jeremy really likes to play with chords, because they 
sproing?  Ok, wrap up the chords, tape them to the wall, put them behind 
furnature, buy Jeremy a coiley craft chord and supervise him.  Jeremy likes 
unsafe plastic bags because they crinckle?  Fill a pillow case with rolled 
up wegman's bags and sew the end shut and supervise, while he has a ball. 
Jeremy loves to play with the telephone, but he keeps calling random people? 
Get old phone that we are not using and let him go to it.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I would also add that arguments mentioning some "dangerousness" or
> destructiveness of the stylus to young children I find ridiculous. Typical
> parents let toddlers write with a sharp pencil or try a scissors or eat 
> with
> a fork, but they do not let the child run around the house with it. The
> child learns under supervision. To cite this at all as a reason for not
> giving slate opportunities early is just nonsense in my mind.
>
> It may well be true that "many" blind people do not use the slate, many 
> have
> not had the opportunity to gain skill with it. Those who have often are 
> glad
> for it. And I really hope someone will pick up on Miss Heather Field's
> point~another area of no real researched data in the education of blind
> children.
>
> Carrie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of David Andrews
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:48 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> Heather:
>
> I hate getting into this (smile) because everybody won't agree, but .....
>
> First I must ask you and others to treat the opinions and positions
> of others with more respect.  While they may be different from yours,
> the people who state them presumably have good reasons for stating
> them, as do you.
>
> Next, I find your generalizations about the slate to be disturbing
> and depressing.  I don't know you, or your place in life, but I would
> guess you are a sighted person, possibly with a blind child.  You
> mention a blind Mother.
>
> Would you, as a sighted person give up a pencil or pen and paper.  I
> doubt it.  While you may not use them all the time, when you need
> them, nothing else will do.  This is in part what the slate and
> stylus are for blind persons.  Yes, many people, including blind
> persons will put them down, but I suspect that in many instances they
> have not been taught well, so are minimized.  While we teach kids to
> write with a pencil before e giving them a computer as a primary
> tool, we think nothing about having them learn to write with a
> Braille Writer, then give them a slate.  Who would want it then.
>
> I am one of those over-50 persons you mention.  I use the slate
> regularly, as I also use technology.  I have used technology heavily
> since the early 80's, and was the first Director of the NFB's
> International Braille and Technology Center, and still make my living
> with technology.  So, I don't think you can plausibly say I couldn't
> adjust to technology.  Likewise, Mike  Freeman who wrote the original
> message which you seemed to hold in such disdain has been a computer
> programmer since the early 80's I think, uses talking cell phone,
> Braille Sense, etc.  We love our technology, but want to have all
> possible tools available to us, including the slate.
>
> A couple years ago, I attended a training session, costing over
> $500.  It was Minnesota and the winter and I slipped and fell, on the
> ice, on my way there.  When I got there, I discovered my Pac Mate
> wouldn't work.  So, if I hadn't also had a slate and stylus and been
> proficient with their use, it would have been $500 down the drain
> because I couldn't take notes.
>
> Blind people need all the tools we can get, and we need to use the
> right one at the right time.  That includes the slate and stylus
> which is good for quick notes, in emergencies, where there is no
> electricity or when batteries are dead, and much more.
>
> Dave
>
>
> At 07:05 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I
>>know, children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally
>>challenged, men or women use those anymore.  Many own them, and
>>could use them in a pinch, but honestly, no one uses them as a main
>>means of writing or on a regular basis. Some people in the fifty or
>>older set still rely on them, because they were not able to keep up
>>with the changing technology, which I can understand and sympathize
>>with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed when I showed
>>her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.  For
>>confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list,
>>list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could
>>honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind
>>people, and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for
>>blind parents and one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer
>>was "You've got to be kidding"  I think her four year old would best
>>be served to learn how to use a cell phone or home phone to call his
>>mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning on a braille
>>note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod touch.
>>Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to
>>>>say.  A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter,
>>>>and she wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so
>>>>what assistive technology/technology is here  -- should she start
>>>>using with her child?
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
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> blindkid:
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> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 01:45:18 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:45:18 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <1564e.3648cf6e.38af1cd9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8006A2D8BC71430EBE66B648F5914DDA@7PYZPJ1>

Awsum.  These sound even appropriate for Jeremy at eighteen months.  We will 
try these tomorrow.  Thank you so much.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ERobin8725 at aol.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> There are computer games that a blind toddler can play.  7-128  Software
> has a series called Pizza Games that includes three pre-school games  that 
> are
> blind accessible.
>
> One - Here comes the Duck, has animals displaying, the name being said and
> the sound the animal makes sounds with the pressing of any key.  This is 
> to
> teach cause and effect on a computer keyboard.
>
> The Letters Game has the child press any letter key - the letter is said,
> an object that starts with that letter is shown and the sound associated
> with that letter is sounded.  This helps children find letters on the
> keyboard.
>
> The Numbers Game is the same type of thing with the  numbers zero through 
> 9.
>
> There are the spelling game, definitions game, numbers plus and numbers
> minus games that are all blind accessible and are for school-age children.
>
> These games can be seen on our website:  _www.7128.com_
> (http://www.7128.com)
>
> Oh - and in addition, we have just released the 2010 Top 25 Website list
> for gamers who are blind.  We reviewed over 100 websites and selected the
> top 25 based on the criteria listed.  You can check this out to find out 
> what
> blind and VI accessible games are available and other information about
> blind gaming.
>
> Eleanor Robinson
> 7-128 Software
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 02:00:49 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:00:49 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <4b7da080.1702be0a.2cb5.6b52@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <F4A7FF4B985646FB8C6982156A8C9D71@7PYZPJ1>

Ok, my brain wheels are ticking.  I have an idea.  A friend of mine is 
taking a technology course whose aim is essentially to design one game, and 
one toy for students, one piece of software for parents and one for 
teachers, all with educational aims.  I wonder if I can get her to help me 
develop an infant and a toddler toy for early slate use.  The infant toy 
would be maybe six to twelve months of age and would consist of a book whose 
front cover has six holes for braille dots, large, maybe the size of poker 
chips, then a large styalis with a soft end, maybe the size of a bingo 
dauber.  There could be a sensor in the dots and one in the styalis and it 
could tell the child which dot is being pressed.  The numbers of each dot 
could be written in large colorful print and in braille also on each dot. 
There could be modes where you hit a few dots in a row then hit a larger 
button off to the side and it will tell you the letter or contraction the 
child has inadvertantly, at first, formed.  On each page of the book, they 
would all have the holes so that the dots on the inside of the back cover of 
the book could be accessed, would have print and braille upper case and 
lower case letters and numbers, etc.  Then for toddlers a smaller styalis, 
crayon tipped in size, that would come with an electronic board with larger 
versions of the slate cells with the impressions of the sides of the dots in 
the cell, but now no no connective boarders fully around each dot as in the 
infant interactive book..  This could say short words and work on phonix, 
and maybe they could even work in a small braille display below that would 
display the words correctly, left to right, even if the child is writing 
right to left, like on a slate, or if that would be to expensive, maybe it 
could have ports to hook to a lap top, braille display, printer, embosser or 
braille note.  This needs a lot more thought, but it could be fun to play 
with.  The slate is like the pen, but we don't give pens to babies and 
toddlers, so there should be some early slate literacy toys out there.  Any 
thoughts or suggestions, before I ask my friend Kim if she is interested?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> If you look at handwriting samples of lots of sighted  kindergarteners and
> first graders you will see a variety of skill...by third grade they all 
> pull
> closer, some-a few- never get totally easily legible.  My sighted youngest
> could write her name in print at age three and a half, legibly. My oldest
> had ADD and hardly sat down until kindergarten, he hated coloring and
> writing.
>
>
>
> You can always expect to have variety in the blind population as well. I 
> am
> very glad Eric found Ramona's speech with Kim's experience and put the 
> link
> up. I think her point (Kim's) that she did it because she did not know
> better is very important to think of. Nearly all our children's 
> educational
> gaps and lacking-s come from speculated and presumed "they can't, it is 
> too
> hard". And because she thought they could and encouraged and gave them the
> opportunity and practice well, yeah they did actually do it. She did not
> have some group from another planet. It just has not been tried enough-all
> the naysayers say it from pure speculation. It is a fact that years ago
> nearly all blind children at 5 and 6 started off with slate and stylus.
> These children had no more trouble than the average sighted child in
> starting. It is a fact that practically virtually every sighted child that
> enters kindergarten has thousands of times, hundreds and hundreds of 
> hours,
> controlling and practicing with a hand held writing instrument. If they 
> had
> trouble well they often had to practice MORE not less. In school they did 
> it
> all day long.
>
>
>
> We get good at what we spend the most time at. I think the very fine skill
> of placing the stylus in the slate cell is some of the most excellent fine
> motor coordination practice kids could get, never mind the benefits of
> learning to write this way efficiently. Who needs to use their hands and 
> get
> good at identifying and manuipulating with fine skill and in detail more
> than our kids?
>
>
>
> As in early handwriting with pen, you don't expect actual letter formation
> maybe even the first YEAR or TWO. With the slate one dot obviously could
> appear to be an "A", but a child can practice and get finger strength 
> within
> the cell just trying making dots, or with no slate. The stylus can also
> scribble and press raised lines on Braille  paper with a giving under
> cardboard or strong foam like a mouse pad that has some give. The practice
> time is often not even within a galaxy that they need before parents and
> teachers claim it is hard or their child can not do it, in my experience.
>
>
>
> I think the bad wrap the slate/stylus has acquired and the dismissed
> opportunity and lack of understanding in its total benefits is ONE of the
> greatest mistakes in the education of our children in the last 50 years.
>
> Carrie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Richard Holloway
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:39 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>
> My main basis for that is that our daughter still struggles with the
>
> slate and stylus even with a good deal of exposure while she excels
>
> with the brailler, PacMate, Braillenote, etc., and will soon (I
>
> suspect) begin to master the qwerty options as well She seems to have
>
> trouble with precise placement of the stylus to hit the right dot. I
>
> do suspect if it were her only option, she's be better at it, but at
>
> the same time, she can pretty well braille as fast as she might
>
> dictate a letter. I cannot imagine a first grader (or anyone for that
>
> matter) who can do that with a slate.
>
>
>
> Again, I'm working with direct history from a sample of one child.
>
> (Your mileage may vary!)
>
>
>
> I can say this with some certainty though-- my pens & pencils will
>
> always be second class citizens to my laptop and the reality is that
>
> I'm, probably 10 or 20 times more productive with a laptop than a pen
>
> and paper so I have no problem with that. Do any of us these days work
>
> better without a computer? For myself, I draw the line at not having
>
> the pen & paper / slate & stylus option available at all; that is
>
> dangerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:13 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>
>
>> Richard:
>
>>
>
>> Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't
>
>> necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are
>
>> not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by
>
>> professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started
>
>> with slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd
>
>> or 3rd grade, so I am very good with slate.  To do it the other way
>
>> around guarantees that the slate will always be a second class
>
>> citizen.
>
>>
>
>> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> blindkid mailing list
>
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 02:15:04 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:15:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1>
	<auto-000140378808@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <7AD8BF0D319F4400A6194B6BBAAAD728@7PYZPJ1>

Wo, hold up.  A.  I am deffinitly strong minded, but I wouldn't say 
disrespectful.  I hate that emotion and expression cannot be easily conveyed 
online.  Anything I say, I say, erm, not in gest, how to put it, with an 
aimiable expression on my face, with a veahament but not nasty tone in my 
voice.  If I wanted to be disrespectful, which I do not, I could easily go 
around spouting "Your opinions are sh--, and you are f-----g stupid" calling 
names and being horrible and childish.  I don't call names, but I do totally 
rib people.  I admit it freely, but I do the same things in person in 
everything from my classes in college to professional conventions and 
forums, and no one seems to get this offended, so some of it must really be 
the electronic barrier.  B.  The origional post that really pushed my, let's 
get debating and discussing button was a post with only the words "Braille 
slate" or "Slate and styalis" in it.  This bothered me as a mother of a 
blind child a blind toddler, and an early childhood educator, because when 
asked what technologies a four year old should have to keep up with their 
peers, the first things should be adapted games that they can play with 
their blind and sighted friends, toys that will encourage their 
imaginations, and educational toys that premote early math and early 
literacy skills, and to just toss out a one word response that is a cold 
fully adult product, with no thought to psychosocial, or social-emotional 
development really concerned me.  I never, ever, ever said "Slates have no 
value whatsoever, keep them far away from all children everywhere."  I 
questioned their importance and workability when compared with other tools 
that premote literacy, I questioned at what age a child would be cognatively 
and physically ready to use one, and I expressed the great importance of so 
many other benificial, and not always strictly educational technologies in a 
young child's life.  and C.  Um, I am blind, totally blind, have a slate, 
hate it, but can use it and would not refuse to teach it to my son, simply 
because as a visual learner and big fan of instant gratification 
*impatiently sneeks a finger under the edge of the slate to try and see what 
is coming out on the back of the paper, and gets pinched* I am not a big fan 
of the slate.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Heather:
>
> I hate getting into this (smile) because everybody won't agree, but .....
>
> First I must ask you and others to treat the opinions and positions of 
> others with more respect.  While they may be different from yours, the 
> people who state them presumably have good reasons for stating them, as do 
> you.
>
> Next, I find your generalizations about the slate to be disturbing and 
> depressing.  I don't know you, or your place in life, but I would guess 
> you are a sighted person, possibly with a blind child.  You mention a 
> blind Mother.
>
> Would you, as a sighted person give up a pencil or pen and paper.  I doubt 
> it.  While you may not use them all the time, when you need them, nothing 
> else will do.  This is in part what the slate and stylus are for blind 
> persons.  Yes, many people, including blind persons will put them down, 
> but I suspect that in many instances they have not been taught well, so 
> are minimized.  While we teach kids to write with a pencil before e giving 
> them a computer as a primary tool, we think nothing about having them 
> learn to write with a Braille Writer, then give them a slate.  Who would 
> want it then.
>
> I am one of those over-50 persons you mention.  I use the slate regularly, 
> as I also use technology.  I have used technology heavily since the early 
> 80's, and was the first Director of the NFB's International Braille and 
> Technology Center, and still make my living with technology.  So, I don't 
> think you can plausibly say I couldn't adjust to technology.  Likewise, 
> Mike  Freeman who wrote the original message which you seemed to hold in 
> such disdain has been a computer programmer since the early 80's I think, 
> uses talking cell phone, Braille Sense, etc.  We love our technology, but 
> want to have all possible tools available to us, including the slate.
>
> A couple years ago, I attended a training session, costing over $500.  It 
> was Minnesota and the winter and I slipped and fell, on the ice, on my way 
> there.  When I got there, I discovered my Pac Mate wouldn't work.  So, if 
> I hadn't also had a slate and stylus and been proficient with their use, 
> it would have been $500 down the drain because I couldn't take notes.
>
> Blind people need all the tools we can get, and we need to use the right 
> one at the right time.  That includes the slate and stylus which is good 
> for quick notes, in emergencies, where there is no electricity or when 
> batteries are dead, and much more.
>
> Dave
>
>
> At 07:05 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know, 
>>children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or 
>>women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, 
>>but honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular 
>>basis. Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because 
>>they were not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can 
>>understand and sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother 
>>laughed when I showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up 
>>on list.  For confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on 
>>the list, list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could 
>>honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, 
>>and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and 
>>one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be 
>>kidding"  I think her four year old would best be served to learn how to 
>>use a cell phone or home phone to call his mother and to dial 911.  I 
>>think he should be learning on a braille note, voice recorder or how to 
>>use a victor reader or ipod touch. Things like that, plus basic braille 
>>and print literacy.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience 
>>>>is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said 
>>>>she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to 
>>>>keep up with her peers in technology, so what assistive 
>>>>technology/technology is here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Feb 19 03:51:17 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:51:17 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <1BE73BBD3B414FA2B5F4E371FC9370E4@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<1BE73BBD3B414FA2B5F4E371FC9370E4@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <auto-000140103207@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Well Heather,  part of my point is that it shouldn't have to be an 
either or situation.  You talk about slate versus brailler, or slate 
versus cane or toilet training.  Life isn't that way, everything is a 
balance and we need some of it all.

Dave

At 05:35 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>I am not jumping into the brailler vs slate thing any more than I 
>already have, but I have to say that cane to get around safely and 
>knowing how to dial 911 sort of trumps slate use.  Just as eating, 
>drinking and toiliting skills for young children trump things like 
>working a piece of technology. Someone earlier on in the thread made 
>a very good point, that we are debating methods of braille, and not 
>really talkking about methods of play, navigation and social 
>learning, which are equally important.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:13 PM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>Richard:
>>
>>Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't 
>>necessarily agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today 
>>are not good slate and stylus users because it is downplayed by 
>>professionals, and they get the Braille Writer first.  I started 
>>with slate first, at six and didn't get a Braille Writer until 2nd 
>>or 3rd grade, so I am very good with slate. To do it the other way 
>>around guarantees that the slate will always be a second class citizen.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>At 11:42 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>>>Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>>>bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>>>the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>>>ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>>>
>>>A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>>>know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>>>braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>>>almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>>>Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>>>writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>>>first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>>>child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>>>just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>>>important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>>>form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>>>and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>>>Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>>>at home for free once the child is in school.
>>>
>>>I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>>>the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>>>them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>>>fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>>>what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>>>these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>>>solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>>>and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>>>thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>>>
>>>Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>>>uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>>>computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>>>and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>>>for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>>>of technology in use by an early age.
>>>
>>>It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>>>possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>>>child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>>>braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>>>stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>>>table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>>>child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>>>and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>>>twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>>>most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>>>when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>>>the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>>>exploring the braille.
>>>
>>>Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>>>Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>>>careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>>>or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>>>mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>>>all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>>>
>>>I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>>>overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>>>her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>>>which way she wants to proceed.
>>>
>>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>>>with her child?
>>>>
>>>>Dave




From owinm at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 19 03:55:12 2010
From: owinm at yahoo.com (Merry-Noel Chamberlain)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:55:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Of the Slate and Stylus
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5851002181708j4eecfa1epec3167b64cad6d78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <312527.40424.qm@web43404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Carlton,
Great comments here!? I personally learned on the slate & stylus?and I'm pretty good, too.? I keep it with me in my purse and can always jot down a phone number or add to a grocery list, etc. - on-the-spot!? I carry 3X5 cards on a ring and use a card slate.? I don't have to worry about having something so huge (like a Perkins) or even my BrailleNote to carry around all the time.? Even my daughter, from China, learned on a slate & stylus?- WHILE IN CHINA - before we adopted her.? I teach my students (and my daughter) the slate and stylus and the abacus... These are great tools!!!
Merry-Noel, TVI and NOMCT

--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Carlton Anne Cook Walker <attorneywalker at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Carlton Anne Cook Walker <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Of the Slate and Stylus
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 1:08 AM


Just my two cents being thrown in . . .

I, too, know many blind adults who are wonderfully proficient at the slate
and stylus.? As a new teacher of students who blind/visually impaired, I
have not seen the same level of proficiency in our youth.

I believe that the slate and stylus are invaluable tools to secure
independence and self-sufficiency for individuals who read braille.? One of
my students, who just turned 16, is a proficient braille reader and writer.
She learned on the Perkins brailler and moved to a BrailleNote around 4th
grade.

Unfortunately, this student absolutely hates the Perkins brailler (I'm not
certain why, but it seems to have something to do with being "forced to
carry one around school and between mom's home and dad's home.? Whatever the
reason, it is almost impossible to get her to use the brailler.)? This
student became COMPLETELY reliant on her BrailleNote.

Like many students, she had never been introduced to the slate and stylus.
I secured several different kinds of slates (Janus, postcard, 4-line,
Brown), and we got started.

Guess what?? She LOVES the slate.? She carries around 2-3 at all times and
is even coming up with new and more uses for the slate -- like most
teenagers, she accepts ideas better when she comes up with them :)


Now, her previous TVI is a great teacher -- she thoroughly taught this
student the braille code.? She provided up-to-date technology for this
student.? But she did not take into account building a reliable toolbox for
her student.? (This student is also learning to sign her name now -- she had
no concept of print or cursive letters or of print numbers when she became
my student this past August.)


As a parent of a child who is blind, the future is always on my mind.? Would
this tool be useful to my student?? How can I make the instruction
meaningful for my student?? How can I best prepare my student NOT to need me
anymore?

We must take care to refrain from withholding any tools just because we
might not like/understand them.


Carlton


-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker, NCLB
105 Creamery Road
Boiling Springs, PA? ? 17007
Voice: 717-658-9894
Twitter: braillemom
_______________________________________________
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From k7uij at panix.com  Fri Feb 19 04:12:49 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:12:49 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
Message-ID: <D7DDFD40BB8D45E58B0D7C8929D4FF99@owner1e06aeb63>

Amen. The message below is bang-on.

I submit that part of the problem with the "print-at-any-cost" school is 
that they don't truly *expect* blind children to compete to the same 
standards as they expect sighted kids to and thus when the blind kids do 
not, they aren't disturbed.

On another related topic, though, I have a bone to pick with almost 
everyone. With a slate, the letters aren't "reversed" or "backward"; the 
cell is rotated 180 degrees about the vertical axis! This confusion or lack 
of specificity in precisely stating what the difference between making cells 
on a braillewriter versus making them on a slate is, I submit, a great part 
of the problem. Lack of precision in thinking leads to lack of precision in 
results!

AS David Andrews says, I am no technophobe; I just think we ought to be 
clear and honest with ourselves as to what technology is good for and what 
it is not.

Mike Freeman


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Dear Richard,
> The young child has no difficulty with the mirror image concept of
> braille because he/she doesn't have one. The reason is simple. If a
> child, is taught that "l" is dot one, two, three,then, wherever the
> child is told he/she will find dot one, two, three, there they will
> push the stylus. In over 30 years of teaching young blind children to
> write braille using a slate and stylus, I have never had a child who
> experiences difficulty with reversing things. I myself was first
> taught braille as a five-year-old using a slate and stylus. I was not
> given a braille writer until third grade. I can vividly remember
> learning to write with both devises and reversals was never an issue.
> If a child clearly knows the dots required for each letter then all
> they need is to be told where to press each dot, given some practice
> and feedback and reversals are a complete non-issue. I would strongly
> encourage you to work with your daughter on developing at least basic
> competence with the slate and stylus.
>
> This idea that writing on a slate is fraught with the problem of
> reversals is, in my experience, a problem suffered by sighted learners
> who are used to picturing things in their heads. Indeed, this very
> fact is a major reason why adult teachers don't want to teach the
> slate. They think the child will have the same problems with reversals
> that they do. But, as usual, it is plain stupid reasoning when one
> makes the jump from "I as an adult have trouble with braille and the
> slate and stylus" to "so I won't ever teach it to a blind child." I
> have met one extremely competent blind person, a braille user, who
> doesn't like the slate. Guess why? She lost her vision around age ten
> and her sighted braille teacher said that to write on the slate she
> would need to reverse everything in her head. What an impossible and
> totally unnecessary task. Of course no one could achieve any speed or
> accuracy using that method, and, after such torture, would not have
> any fondness for the slate and stylus.
>
> But, even if a young blind child did experience some initial trouble
> with reversals when writing on the slate, does this mean that the
> child should be deprived of the nonvisual equivalent of a pen or
> pencil? Just because some young print writers sometimes write "b" and
> "d" or "q" and "p" the wrong way, do early childhood teachers across
> the nation abandon the use of pencil and paper for young sighted
> children? Of course not and no one would be so irresponsible as to
> suggest that we do so. Yet, this is largely what has happened
> regarding the slate and stylus. The decline in slate usage was aided
> by the rise of the "print at any cost" philosophy among sighted
> teachers of children with low vision. Though many of these children
> were Functionally Blind, they were told to use what sight they had.
> completely nonfunctional strategies, such as the following, were, and
> still are, taught to children with low vision. "well, you can use
> print because, provided you have the right lighting, a very specific
> kind of very dark ink pen, the correct dark line paper, can write
> slowly and are not having trouble with eye-strain today, you're a
> print reader. You don't need braille and certainly don't need a slate
> and stylus to take notes." The fact that many of these students never
> manage to write fast enough and rarely experience the perfect
> conditions required to enable them to cmpete on equal terms with their
> sighted peers/colleagues, does not appear to be a concern to the
> teachers taking this stand. Somehow, in some strange, deep part of the
> human psyche, having the student act sighted and using print, even
> when they can't read what they write, when the student is complaining
> of eye-strain and head-aches and print is not working for a student,
> seems to be preferable to calling a child blind and giving them
> totally competitive tools, like a slate and stylus and braille. Sadly,
> because of the misconceptions about blindness, many parents would
> rather have a print using pretend sighted child than a real, braille
> using blind child as well.
>
> Why have I gone onto my antiprint rant you may ask? Because I believe
> that there are psychological reasons, such as seeing the slate as
> old-fashioned and low tech, too hard, too slow, too blind, and too
> hard to teach, that influence teachers who don't or won't teach it to
> today's blind children. There's no real data on slate usage among
> those who are profficient users. I've never seen a survey seeking real
> data on the value, or nonvalue, of slate and stylus to blind people.
> Yet, somehow the decision that slate skills are no longer necessary
> has been made.
> This is sheer foolishness, the kind of logic that says because we can
> now drive cars we don't need bicycles, or because we have replaced the
> outdoor Main Street shopping experience with indoor shopping malls, we
> don't need umbrellas.
>
> I cannot imagine the innumerable inconveniences I would experience
> without recourse to my slate. I Write shopping lists on the bus, I
> take notes quietly in meetings, I jot down phone numbers and addresses
> of new contacts, I write or retrieve information in extremely noisy
> environments with ease, I have quickly made notes for an impromptu
> meeting, written down doses and instructions at the doctor's, copied
> out a recipe I found in a magazine in the dentist's waiting-room,
> noted the name and number of taxi drivers whom I wished to report for
> good or bad reasons, written down info a bus or train clerk gave me on
> my next connection, and who knows what I may still use it to write.
> The
> possibilities are endless... rather like the excuses that people give
> why young children should be denied the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity
> to learn to be competent slate users.
>
> As for technology for a young child, it depends on many factors but
> should include games and teaching/learning devices that offer the same
> exposure to the concept of what techology is and does that sighted
> children are given. The child's preferences, parents' preferences and
> the available budget as well as the co-operation of local educators
> are all factors that will influcnce choices.
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Heather Field
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
> bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
> the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
> ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>
> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
> braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
> and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
> Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
> at home for free once the child is in school.
>
> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
> the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
> them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
> fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
> what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
> these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
> solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
> and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
> thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>
> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
> uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
> computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
> and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
> for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
> of technology in use by an early age.
>
> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
> child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
> braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
> stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
> table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
> child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
> and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
> twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
> most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
> when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
> the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
> exploring the braille.
>
> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
> Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
> careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
> or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
> mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
> all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>
> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
> her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
> which way she wants to proceed.
>
> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>> with her child?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Fri Feb 19 04:42:30 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:42:30 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
Message-ID: <27A5CFA7-6BDF-46BB-BE23-1C97104308F5@gopbc.org>

I feel like I stirred up a hornet's nest a bit. First, I must have  
misspoken somewhere, no doubt typing and doing three other things at  
once; my apologies-- Kendra had some letter reversal issues but she is  
past them now and that was with braille reading; quite common at least  
with young kids.

The issue with her slate & stylus is apparently one of fine motor  
control, so we have decided not to focus on that heavily until she can  
better control the tool on the advice of her TVI. I don't have a  
problem with that. In fact she does fine with the finger slate; no  
reversal issues at all. As with so many things, sometimes we have to  
adjust the schedule and order of things based on the needs and  
readiness of each child.

I have mentioned several times that I agree slate and stylus are  
important but I really don't think her education needs to be centered  
around being record-setting fast with a slate and stylus. That is the  
main point I would like to make.

One cannot focus on being the absolute best and fastest at everything.  
I continue to think it makes sense to generally focus on the mastery  
of skills with which one is ready to proceed and which offer  
reasonable "bang for the buck", so to speak. I don't see a lot of  
"bang" for my child from pushing hard on the slate right now, and I  
see no downside from her being very quick with both a Perkins and a  
BrailleNote / PAC Mate. If she were busy putting everything into the  
slate, she'd no doubt be somewhat better at it now, but at what cost?  
She's a first grader working generally around a fourth grade level  
with her braille work, just not while using a slate. I see FAR more  
value in that than in getting over-focused on slate and stylus.

As she becomes more proficient with her slate, we can begin to decide  
what she should use when, just as she has already moved to much  
heavier use of a PAC Mate and BrailleNote this year while she was  
using a Perkins a lot from ages 3 through 5. She only started doing  
much at all with a BrailleNote in the last year (kindergarten). Still,  
I doubt more than a small part of her work is going to be done on a  
slate, though we will likely bow to the wisdom of her outstanding TVI  
in that area. In five years, she has yet to steer us wrong...

Richard



From rholloway at gopbc.org  Fri Feb 19 04:57:57 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:57:57 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <D7DDFD40BB8D45E58B0D7C8929D4FF99@owner1e06aeb63>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org>
	<6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
	<D7DDFD40BB8D45E58B0D7C8929D4FF99@owner1e06aeb63>
Message-ID: <23AFD37A-0C25-4B6B-8C1C-71BC1750508B@gopbc.org>

> This confusion or lack of specificity in precisely stating what the  
> difference between making cells on a braillewriter versus making  
> them on a slate is, I submit, a great part of the problem. Lack of  
> precision in thinking leads to lack of precision in results!

I  cannot speak for the others in this discussion, but I am not  
entirely convinced that either my or my seven-year-old's "lack of  
precision in thinking" has a great deal to do with her potential to  
master the use of a slate and stylus.



From albert at myblindspot.org  Fri Feb 19 13:20:33 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:20:33 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <7AD8BF0D319F4400A6194B6BBAAAD728@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1><auto-000140378808@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<7AD8BF0D319F4400A6194B6BBAAAD728@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <6686CEED25DE4D87B2E947ED5A281CF4@JkTC4D1>

I agree with you here. Just because expressive language is used, and simple
text without inflection  should not be interpreted as disrespectful. We
should not read our own emotions into someone else's posts. I also agree
with you that the simple one line answer of slate and stylus  set me off
because  it just did not, in my opinion, answer the question. It did
however, get one great thread going.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:15 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

Wo, hold up.  A.  I am deffinitly strong minded, but I wouldn't say 
disrespectful.  I hate that emotion and expression cannot be easily conveyed

online.  Anything I say, I say, erm, not in gest, how to put it, with an 
aimiable expression on my face, with a veahament but not nasty tone in my 
voice.  If I wanted to be disrespectful, which I do not, I could easily go 
around spouting "Your opinions are sh--, and you are f-----g stupid" calling

names and being horrible and childish.  I don't call names, but I do totally

rib people.  I admit it freely, but I do the same things in person in 
everything from my classes in college to professional conventions and 
forums, and no one seems to get this offended, so some of it must really be 
the electronic barrier.  B.  The origional post that really pushed my, let's

get debating and discussing button was a post with only the words "Braille 
slate" or "Slate and styalis" in it.  This bothered me as a mother of a 
blind child a blind toddler, and an early childhood educator, because when 
asked what technologies a four year old should have to keep up with their 
peers, the first things should be adapted games that they can play with 
their blind and sighted friends, toys that will encourage their 
imaginations, and educational toys that premote early math and early 
literacy skills, and to just toss out a one word response that is a cold 
fully adult product, with no thought to psychosocial, or social-emotional 
development really concerned me.  I never, ever, ever said "Slates have no 
value whatsoever, keep them far away from all children everywhere."  I 
questioned their importance and workability when compared with other tools 
that premote literacy, I questioned at what age a child would be cognatively

and physically ready to use one, and I expressed the great importance of so 
many other benificial, and not always strictly educational technologies in a

young child's life.  and C.  Um, I am blind, totally blind, have a slate, 
hate it, but can use it and would not refuse to teach it to my son, simply 
because as a visual learner and big fan of instant gratification 
*impatiently sneeks a finger under the edge of the slate to try and see what

is coming out on the back of the paper, and gets pinched* I am not a big fan

of the slate.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Heather:
>
> I hate getting into this (smile) because everybody won't agree, but .....
>
> First I must ask you and others to treat the opinions and positions of 
> others with more respect.  While they may be different from yours, the 
> people who state them presumably have good reasons for stating them, as do

> you.
>
> Next, I find your generalizations about the slate to be disturbing and 
> depressing.  I don't know you, or your place in life, but I would guess 
> you are a sighted person, possibly with a blind child.  You mention a 
> blind Mother.
>
> Would you, as a sighted person give up a pencil or pen and paper.  I doubt

> it.  While you may not use them all the time, when you need them, nothing 
> else will do.  This is in part what the slate and stylus are for blind 
> persons.  Yes, many people, including blind persons will put them down, 
> but I suspect that in many instances they have not been taught well, so 
> are minimized.  While we teach kids to write with a pencil before e giving

> them a computer as a primary tool, we think nothing about having them 
> learn to write with a Braille Writer, then give them a slate.  Who would 
> want it then.
>
> I am one of those over-50 persons you mention.  I use the slate regularly,

> as I also use technology.  I have used technology heavily since the early 
> 80's, and was the first Director of the NFB's International Braille and 
> Technology Center, and still make my living with technology.  So, I don't 
> think you can plausibly say I couldn't adjust to technology.  Likewise, 
> Mike  Freeman who wrote the original message which you seemed to hold in 
> such disdain has been a computer programmer since the early 80's I think, 
> uses talking cell phone, Braille Sense, etc.  We love our technology, but 
> want to have all possible tools available to us, including the slate.
>
> A couple years ago, I attended a training session, costing over $500.  It 
> was Minnesota and the winter and I slipped and fell, on the ice, on my way

> there.  When I got there, I discovered my Pac Mate wouldn't work.  So, if 
> I hadn't also had a slate and stylus and been proficient with their use, 
> it would have been $500 down the drain because I couldn't take notes.
>
> Blind people need all the tools we can get, and we need to use the right 
> one at the right time.  That includes the slate and stylus which is good 
> for quick notes, in emergencies, where there is no electricity or when 
> batteries are dead, and much more.
>
> Dave
>
>
> At 07:05 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know, 
>>children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or 
>>women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch, 
>>but honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular 
>>basis. Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because 
>>they were not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can 
>>understand and sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother 
>>laughed when I showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up 
>>on list.  For confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on 
>>the list, list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could 
>>honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, 
>>and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and

>>one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be 
>>kidding"  I think her four year old would best be served to learn how to 
>>use a cell phone or home phone to call his mother and to dial 911.  I 
>>think he should be learning on a braille note, voice recorder or how to 
>>use a victor reader or ipod touch. Things like that, plus basic braille 
>>and print literacy.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>A slate and stylus!
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience 
>>>>is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said 
>>>>she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to 
>>>>keep up with her peers in technology, so what assistive 
>>>>technology/technology is here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 12:56:04 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:56:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><auto-000140343949@mailfront1.g2host.com><1BE73BBD3B414FA2B5F4E371FC9370E4@7PYZPJ1>
	<auto-000140103207@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <A7A5654766E742A6B4BF579781E70F74@7PYZPJ1>

I'm merely stating that there is a higherarchy in which all things mentioned 
have varying degrees of importance and rellivance, depending on the child in 
question and their situation.  A vs B does not mean A should be thrown out 
the window in favor of B, it can just as easily mean A is better than B, or 
A is more appropriate than B in cases C through G but B is preferable to A 
in cases H through P.  Ok, enough letters this early in the morning.  I can 
tell I've been doing far too much algebra homework lately.  *laughs*
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Well Heather,  part of my point is that it shouldn't have to be an either 
> or situation.  You talk about slate versus brailler, or slate versus cane 
> or toilet training.  Life isn't that way, everything is a balance and we 
> need some of it all.
>
> Dave
>
> At 05:35 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>I am not jumping into the brailler vs slate thing any more than I already 
>>have, but I have to say that cane to get around safely and knowing how to 
>>dial 911 sort of trumps slate use.  Just as eating, drinking and toiliting 
>>skills for young children trump things like working a piece of technology. 
>>Someone earlier on in the thread made a very good point, that we are 
>>debating methods of braille, and not really talkking about methods of 
>>play, navigation and social learning, which are equally important.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:13 PM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>>Richard:
>>>
>>>Thanks for the ideas.  Not to be argumentative but I don't necessarily 
>>>agree with your placement of slate.  Most kids today are not good slate 
>>>and stylus users because it is downplayed by professionals, and they get 
>>>the Braille Writer first.  I started with slate first, at six and didn't 
>>>get a Braille Writer until 2nd or 3rd grade, so I am very good with 
>>>slate. To do it the other way around guarantees that the slate will 
>>>always be a second class citizen.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>At 11:42 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>>>>Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>>>>bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>>>>the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>>>>ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>>>>
>>>>A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>>>>know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>>>>braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>>>>almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>>>>Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>>>>writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>>>>first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>>>>child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>>>>just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>>>>important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>>>>form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>>>>and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>>>>Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>>>>at home for free once the child is in school.
>>>>
>>>>I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>>>>the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>>>>them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>>>>fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>>>>what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>>>>these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>>>>solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>>>>and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>>>>thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>>>>
>>>>Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>>>>uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>>>>computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>>>>and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>>>>for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>>>>of technology in use by an early age.
>>>>
>>>>It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>>>>possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>>>>child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>>>>braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>>>>stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>>>>table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>>>>child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>>>>and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>>>>twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>>>>most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>>>>when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>>>>the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>>>>exploring the braille.
>>>>
>>>>Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>>>>Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>>>>careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>>>>or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>>>>mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>>>>all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>>>>
>>>>I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>>>>overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>>>>her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>>>>which way she wants to proceed.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>>>>experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>>>>A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>>>>wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>>>>assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>>>>with her child?
>>>>>
>>>>>Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 13:09:04 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:09:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony>
	<27A5CFA7-6BDF-46BB-BE23-1C97104308F5@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <AAE6B7F6D4F0457699AAAE5C9F89A4DB@7PYZPJ1>

Right on.  Many families that home school have a similar phylosophy.  That 
is if "Our daughter is aged at a second grade level, but she is reading at a 
first grade level, but her math is at a second grade level and her reading 
comprehention is at a fifth grade level and her science comprehention is at 
a fourth grade level, we, will keep working on reading and math, but not 
push them so hard that her outstanding science and literacy comprehention 
levels off or drops.  That is why kids are tested every two to three years, 
because their interests and aptitudes run in phases such that they might 
jump ahead in math one year and their english skills might bound ahead the 
next to katch up with or surpass the math.  All you can do is introduce a 
tool or theory or subject to a child.  Pushing it at the expense of other 
subjects can only hurt their best subjects and in the worse case could 
lessen the child's love of learning.  You and your TVI sound like you are 
doing an absolutely amazing job, and your daughter sounds very very bright. 
I think a lot of people are hearing parents say "Yes, slate good, other 
things good too, slate maybe slightly less important, will show slate to 
kid, will help them, will not push slate at expense of other technologies or 
skills..." and instead they are taking away from that "We hate the slate, we 
hate the slate, lalala lala..." *insert cartoon music notes for lightened 
mood*
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I feel like I stirred up a hornet's nest a bit. First, I must have 
>misspoken somewhere, no doubt typing and doing three other things at  once; 
>my apologies-- Kendra had some letter reversal issues but she is  past them 
>now and that was with braille reading; quite common at least  with young 
>kids.
>
> The issue with her slate & stylus is apparently one of fine motor 
> control, so we have decided not to focus on that heavily until she can 
> better control the tool on the advice of her TVI. I don't have a  problem 
> with that. In fact she does fine with the finger slate; no  reversal 
> issues at all. As with so many things, sometimes we have to  adjust the 
> schedule and order of things based on the needs and  readiness of each 
> child.
>
> I have mentioned several times that I agree slate and stylus are 
> important but I really don't think her education needs to be centered 
> around being record-setting fast with a slate and stylus. That is the 
> main point I would like to make.
>
> One cannot focus on being the absolute best and fastest at everything.  I 
> continue to think it makes sense to generally focus on the mastery  of 
> skills with which one is ready to proceed and which offer  reasonable 
> "bang for the buck", so to speak. I don't see a lot of  "bang" for my 
> child from pushing hard on the slate right now, and I  see no downside 
> from her being very quick with both a Perkins and a  BrailleNote / PAC 
> Mate. If she were busy putting everything into the  slate, she'd no doubt 
> be somewhat better at it now, but at what cost?  She's a first grader 
> working generally around a fourth grade level  with her braille work, just 
> not while using a slate. I see FAR more  value in that than in getting 
> over-focused on slate and stylus.
>
> As she becomes more proficient with her slate, we can begin to decide 
> what she should use when, just as she has already moved to much  heavier 
> use of a PAC Mate and BrailleNote this year while she was  using a Perkins 
> a lot from ages 3 through 5. She only started doing  much at all with a 
> BrailleNote in the last year (kindergarten). Still,  I doubt more than a 
> small part of her work is going to be done on a  slate, though we will 
> likely bow to the wisdom of her outstanding TVI  in that area. In five 
> years, she has yet to steer us wrong...
>
> Richard
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 13:30:00 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:30:00 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony><D7DDFD40BB8D45E58B0D7C8929D4FF99@owner1e06aeb63>
	<23AFD37A-0C25-4B6B-8C1C-71BC1750508B@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <5A37B3FBF4624325A288D485CDFD3683@7PYZPJ1>

The. Cells. Are backwards.  No, they are not backwards in the context of the 
sentence, because the writing is also reversed, but when making the cells on 
the slate, they are backwards.  An L is dots 1,2,3 and if you are to think 
of the dots on the slate as being the ordinary way, and I am not saying that 
is the correct way to go about it, but if you did, for the sake of 
arguement, then L would be dots 4,5,6, which is backwards.  So, the cells 
are forwards in the context of the sentence, but the sentence is backwards, 
and so the cells are backwards in the context of the child's prior 
experience and personal context.  If we look at Lev Vidgotski's zone of 
proximal development, what the child has from early exposure in braille 
books is contrary to the experience of how to braille on a slate.  Does that 
mean it should never be taught?  That it can never be mastered or 
understood?  Of course not, but saying that it is not backwards is a bit 
confusing and convoluted to a small child.  What I think, from an early 
childhood educator's perspective, might be helpful is to show the child who 
understands basic words of at least three letters how writing the braille 
writer way, left to right and forwards on a slate yields backwards writing, 
then help them problem solve to find out how to make it look right on the 
back of the paper.  Let them experement with writing backwards letters left 
to right, forwards letters right to left, backwards letters right to left, 
and keep having them compare and contrast until they get the orientation of 
the paper and the letters.  If you just say "Just do it this way because I 
say so" they are likely to get angry and frustrated at the difficulty, but 
if you help them be a part of the proccess and the solution, they are more 
likely to embrace the new activity.  Imagine if you at four or five were 
suddenly told "Ok, you are just beginning to master which way letters go and 
how they look and now I want you to write them one way on this machine and 
the completely reversed way on this machine."  "Why?"  "Because that makes 
it look right and I said so, end of story."  I remember in first grade being 
so frustrated.  I would make a few letters then open the slate, take out the 
paper and investigate it.  I wanted to try doing it the "right" way to see 
why that didn't work.  I wanted to have explanations and to play a bit, but 
I was told to "Put the paper back in and do your work."  For very young 
children, having to keep their place, with out being able to see the letters 
being created is also a difficult skill to master when it is first 
introduced.  Perhaps place holding activities in lines of letters and 
numbers would be helpful, or practicing writing on a brailler or reading a 
book and being mindful of their position in a word without having to look 
back.  Think how upsetting it would be to learn that those cute things that 
meow are "cats" and you are so proud that you can write cats, but being only 
four or five, while you are trying to remember how the c and the a sound and 
look, and how they sound and look together, then add a t into the mix, and 
while you are trying to think about how the letters look, you are also 
remembering to write right to left, make sure the letters are correctly 
oriented for that dirrection, while trying to sound out the word to make 
sure you don't miss any letters, and then you add in the math of trying to 
remember which cell you are in because you can't feel what is coming out on 
the paper?  God, if I were four I would burst into tears over all of that., 
Let them master phonix first, or basic math first, or just recognizing and 
producing left to right, forward facing letters first.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>> This confusion or lack of specificity in precisely stating what the 
>> difference between making cells on a braillewriter versus making  them on 
>> a slate is, I submit, a great part of the problem. Lack of  precision in 
>> thinking leads to lack of precision in results!
>
> I  cannot speak for the others in this discussion, but I am not  entirely 
> convinced that either my or my seven-year-old's "lack of  precision in 
> thinking" has a great deal to do with her potential to  master the use of 
> a slate and stylus.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid:
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> 




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Feb 19 13:45:52 2010
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:45:52 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <EEA75D93264548FC91E877017FFF0A8B@7PYZPJ1>
References: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1><4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com><3DD9965C4F424064880DED59473A8D8D@JkTC4D1><1E66DEA2-C3C4-494D-B0D3-548D2F1D40C8@gopbc.org>
	<EEA75D93264548FC91E877017FFF0A8B@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS1607AC6ACB4B4BF974D06DEB460@phx.gbl>

Okay, Heather, you're not going to "win" this one.  Even I, who hates the 
slate, sees the value in having one.  I did learn to use the Brailler long 
before the slate because I couldn't get the reversals.  I think the person 
who introduced it may have used those words "reverse" and "backwards" that 
you shouldn't use.  So I didn't start until fifth grade, when I finally got 
it.
Even taking class notes all the way from seven thrade through college, I did 
not become a proficient user.  No, it wasn't because I hated it and wouldn't 
get better by forgoing the Brailler altogether.  It was because I did not 
have the wrist strength even after all the time.  I would always tire after 
about ten minutes of writing continuously.
So do I disagree with the proponents of the slate, maybe, but I do think it 
should be in the blind child's toolbox.  A sighted child has all the tools 
so why not the blind child.  If you have or adopt a blind child, feel free 
not to teach its use but one day the PDA may quit suddenly and the voice 
recorder may go dead because you forgot to change batteries and then where 
are you.  Oh, I forgot, the Stream got left at home.  Slates don't take up 
much space and regular paper will hold dots in a pinch.  No I haven't taken 
it out of my purse sinci I put it there.  But it is there just in case.
Barbara

A Congress that will always do its work in the dark must have something to 
hide.  The people have spoken, yet they do not listen.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:02 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid

> I can see some limited situations where it would be the only option, and 
> by all means, if someone likes one, they should use it.  Just so long as 
> the use of that technology doesn't prevent them from using other 
> technologies such as tiny voice recorders, braille note takers, etc.  And, 
> by all means, introduce her to one, but don't be surprised or offended if 
> some day your daughter refuses to carry one, or hell, loves it, but 
> refuses to carry a mini voice recorder.  The best thing to do is explain 
> the complex pros and cons of all technologies and then let them decide.  I 
> personallly, and many other blind people find them out dated and 
> stigmatizing and love the fitting inn and the freedom that texting them 
> self or voice mailing them self a short note, instead of writing it on a 
> slate and styalis gives them. Others, who are super vigilent about not 
> being obtrusive, that is people with Howard Gardiner's intra personal, not 
> interpersonal multiple intelligence, really prefer the low profile, quiet 
> option of a slate and styalis.  I, as a mom on the go, with a full diaper 
> bag, a purse, a guide dog and a toddler in toe would never in a million 
> years dream of carrying something so long and that requires the use of 
> both hands, as I can simply call my own voice mail and leave my self a 
> quick voice reminder of things I want to get at the grocery store, while 
> walking down the street.  But, I know there are some blind people, in the 
> world, I do not know them personally, that do prefer to use this 
> particular technology.  I don't know how old your daughter is, but I have 
> a feeling that when she is a teen ager, going through the teen age years 
> she will scorn your slate and styalis and scorn my braillenote in favor of 
> some new technology that neither of us can even imagine right now.  Kids 
> will always want the newest greatest thing, and if you at least expose her 
> to a slate, she might decide that she does in fact like it, when she is an 
> adult, or she might hate it.  There is no way of knowing.  Final note. 
> Speaking from a social perspective.  It is far less stigmatizing for a 
> blind person to whip out a cell phone than a slate, to take notes on a lap 
> top than a perkins brailler, to read books on a victer reader stream or a 
> braille note than to lug around huge braille text books or immense braille 
> novels.  I am not saying that a person's entire life should be dictated by 
> fashion or appearances, but even blind people who understand the 
> importance of braille literacy and thank their parents every day for 
> teaching them how to read braille.  Even blind people who appreciate the 
> engenuity of the people who first invented things like the perkins 
> brailler, the dimo tape labler and the slate, and who will always pick 
> whichever technology gets the job done best in a pinch, do realize that 
> carrying around two or three huge volumes of braille is ackward, or that 
> at the end of a weary day, they have to educate the public less, answer 
> less questions, etc, if they are using their cell rather than a slate.  I 
> hate having to carry around a heavy brailler and huge thick text books, 
> and I don't do it unless I have to, because it is time consuming, space 
> consuming, makes me look like a dork and makes me stand out.  But, I am 
> not so proud that I refuse to use my brailler for higher level math or if 
> my braille note gets broken.  I am not so ignorant or proud that I won't 
> get a foreign language book in braille, because, unlike a history or 
> psychology text it is not as benificial in electronic or audeo form.  I 
> just shrug when people laugh, or make fun of me, or ask me why I am not 
> using a book on tape or my lap top, and say "Yeah, I prefer those, but for 
> this subject, this is the best thing for the job, but it is a pain in the 
> butt."  I feel that way about my cane, as a guide dog user.  I actively 
> hate my cane.  I feel stupid using it, I hate how it makes noise in a 
> quiet room or hallway and draws attention to me.  But, I am not so proud 
> or stupid that I would not use one and make myself unsafe when I am 
> inbetween a retired guide and a replacer guide.  And, some people prefer 
> canes, which is their right.  And everyone has different priorities.  The 
> embarrassment of having your very ill guide dog have explosive diareah in 
> public is hundreds of times worse than the day to day embarrasement of 
> your cane making noise or making you stand out, or tripping people, even 
> if you are using proper techniques.  But the amazing exploding dog 
> incident may never happen for people, or only once per dog guide, and most 
> people are likely to sympathize with the sick dog, once they realize that 
> is the problem, they are not likely to feel sorry for and forgive a white 
> cane that trips them as they run to class.  Some blind people don't feel 
> like dealing with the hastles of potential access issues with uninformed 
> people refusing them enterance or service because of a guide dog, because 
> they are not good with confrontations.  These people often prefer older 
> more limited but far more reliable technologies, because slates and 
> braillers and abacuses take a lot more abuse and don't die cold turkey 
> like electronic technologies can.  It's a comfort zone/life style thing. 
> Sighted example then.  I think it is stupid to refuse to use a GPS all 
> together, because they do make things far more efficent, but I agree that 
> it is equally stupid not to keep a basic working knowledge of your city 
> and know how to use a map in a pinch.  Ok, I'm done.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> Recently, I needed to jot down a phone number in a hurry in a loud and 
>> socially awkward situation. (I am sighted.) Could not find a pen or 
>> pencil so I went for my Blackberry and in the confusion, congestion  and 
>> noise the task became overwhelming. I use my BB often and with  ease, but 
>> at that moment I had the hardest time trying to talk with  several people 
>> and focus on opening something (and to see the tiny  keys and text with 
>> my bifocals in a dark room) where I could manage to  type in a  simple 10 
>> digit number. All I needed right then was a  simple pen.
>>
>> It is for that sort of situation that I want my daughter to ultimately 
>> be prepared to grab that slate and stylus, if nothing else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> I never got that  Heather did not support the introduction or use of  a 
>>> slate
>>> and stylus, just that in this technology age, as I understood the 
>>> question
>>> as posed   technologies are key to introduce to children as early as
>>> possible.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  who 
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:00 AM
>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>> Dear Heather,
>>> I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper 
>>> Braille,
>>> neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or  pencil. I 
>>> know
>>> hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties, 
>>> thirties
>>> and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it, 
>>> own
>>> Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find 
>>> times on
>>> a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
>>> slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
>>> regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions 
>>> down in
>>> interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has 
>>> more
>>> than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at 
>>> another
>>> place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the  small 
>>> slate
>>> and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes 
>>> only
>>> independent option. All these people only turn to this because they 
>>> have
>>> proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that  those 
>>> who do
>>> not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use.  Because 
>>> you
>>> do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that 
>>> such a
>>> strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I 
>>> might add
>>> who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them  to 
>>> some
>>> degree of proficiency.
>>>
>>> As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure 
>>> out the
>>> slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given  thousands 
>>> of
>>> attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and  making 
>>> marks.
>>> Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a  bad 
>>> idea
>>> to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble  the
>>> teacher might feel and is transferred.
>>>
>>> Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There  is 
>>> no
>>> reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is  true 
>>> that
>>> I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and  the
>>> slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on 
>>> the
>>> Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate  first
>>> (even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and  then 
>>> add
>>> the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the  slate. 
>>> It is
>>> indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate 
>>> "in"
>>> these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often 
>>> "easier"
>>> at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
>>> Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to  accept 
>>> the
>>> slate the longer you wait.
>>>
>>> I have known several blind students (including an international  student 
>>> age
>>> 16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never  did 
>>> like
>>> the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a  pen. 
>>> You
>>> use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.
>>>
>>> The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength 
>>> further
>>> for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken  to 
>>> learn
>>> to write print as well.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Carrie Gilmer
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Heather
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I 
>>> know,
>>> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men  or
>>> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a  pinch, 
>>> but
>>> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a  regular 
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because  they 
>>> were
>>> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can 
>>> understand and
>>>
>>> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed  when I
>>> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list.   For
>>> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, 
>>> list
>>> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly  say 
>>> that I
>>>
>>> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on  a 
>>> list
>>> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
>>> students,
>>>
>>> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think  her 
>>> four
>>> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or  home 
>>> phone
>>>
>>> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning  on a
>>> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod 
>>> touch.
>>> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my 
>>>>> experience is
>>>>> with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman  said 
>>>>> she
>>>>> had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to 
>>>>> keep up
>>>>> with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/ technology 
>>>>> is
>>>>> here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
>>> er.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
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>>> ail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>>> ot.org
>>>
>>>
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>>> blindkid mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>> blindkid:
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>>
>>
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>
>
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> blindkid mailing list
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> 



From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 14:07:08 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:07:08 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] discussion threads, was Re:  Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><017762D9C4124A9CAC5BEA8B174E0552@owner1e06aeb63><875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1><auto-000140378808@mailfront1.g2host.com><7AD8BF0D319F4400A6194B6BBAAAD728@7PYZPJ1>
	<6686CEED25DE4D87B2E947ED5A281CF4@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <9EA0EEEECAF44113ADD6E4E54294D23F@7PYZPJ1>

    Exactly.  This really is quite civilized.  No one here is being 
disrespectful in my opinion.  Strong willed?  Heck yeah.  Passionate about 
their views?  No doubt.  Even a bit frustrated or sharp?  Sometimes.  But, 
this is how people in the real world talk and discuss.  Some of the best 
things I have learned, the most ensightful trains of thought that I have 
come up with or listened to other people come up with, some of the most 
enlightening exchanges contain a few hot words, a bit of hyperbole and a lot 
of genuine thought and feeling.  When we debate raw meaty bones type feeding 
vs the BARF raw diet for dogs on my german shepherd list, people often toss 
around words and phrases like "Yeah, if you want to kill your dog with 
that." or "I'd never do that in a million years."  On my attachment 
parenting list, there are very empassioned debates about vaxenes, in which 
things can get a bit hairy, and they even do sware on that list, but we are 
all suportive of one another, and understand that with issues you feel 
strongly about sometimes things get said that are a bit crazy, but the same 
woman who responded to my question about whether or not she would give her 
child the swine flue vaxine with "Like hell, you've got to be joking, 
Heather." was also there to tell me to hang in there when Jeremy's biting 
stage and some cloth diapering issues were making me question some of my 
attachment parenting ideals.  A very brilliant, very opinionated woman on 
our GSD list basically strongly critasized some of the practices of my, at 
the time, current guide dog school, calling them irrisponsible and 
neglegent.  Some of what she said was true, some was false, and some was 
true, but blown out of preportion, but when I had to retire my GSD guide 
because of health and work issues, her reaction of sympathy for my loss and 
my greeving was just as honest and intense as her arguements against some of 
Fidelco's practices.  Rambling again, but point is, human beings have 
emotions, and those creep into their accademic debates, especially when 
those debates center around issues that have affected them or could affect 
their children, and as long as no one is being intentionally cruel, that is 
a good thing.  I always try to be blunt and honest.  I find myself many many 
times a day writing to someone's post "You said A B and C, and I think 
you're dead wrong, but I think your points D E And F were spot on and I 
never would have thought of E, that is very insightful.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I agree with you here. Just because expressive language is used, and simple
> text without inflection  should not be interpreted as disrespectful. We
> should not read our own emotions into someone else's posts. I also agree
> with you that the simple one line answer of slate and stylus  set me off
> because  it just did not, in my opinion, answer the question. It did
> however, get one great thread going.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:15 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
> Wo, hold up.  A.  I am deffinitly strong minded, but I wouldn't say
> disrespectful.  I hate that emotion and expression cannot be easily 
> conveyed
>
> online.  Anything I say, I say, erm, not in gest, how to put it, with an
> aimiable expression on my face, with a veahament but not nasty tone in my
> voice.  If I wanted to be disrespectful, which I do not, I could easily go
> around spouting "Your opinions are sh--, and you are f-----g stupid" 
> calling
>
> names and being horrible and childish.  I don't call names, but I do 
> totally
>
> rib people.  I admit it freely, but I do the same things in person in
> everything from my classes in college to professional conventions and
> forums, and no one seems to get this offended, so some of it must really 
> be
> the electronic barrier.  B.  The origional post that really pushed my, 
> let's
>
> get debating and discussing button was a post with only the words "Braille
> slate" or "Slate and styalis" in it.  This bothered me as a mother of a
> blind child a blind toddler, and an early childhood educator, because when
> asked what technologies a four year old should have to keep up with their
> peers, the first things should be adapted games that they can play with
> their blind and sighted friends, toys that will encourage their
> imaginations, and educational toys that premote early math and early
> literacy skills, and to just toss out a one word response that is a cold
> fully adult product, with no thought to psychosocial, or social-emotional
> development really concerned me.  I never, ever, ever said "Slates have no
> value whatsoever, keep them far away from all children everywhere."  I
> questioned their importance and workability when compared with other tools
> that premote literacy, I questioned at what age a child would be 
> cognatively
>
> and physically ready to use one, and I expressed the great importance of 
> so
> many other benificial, and not always strictly educational technologies in 
> a
>
> young child's life.  and C.  Um, I am blind, totally blind, have a slate,
> hate it, but can use it and would not refuse to teach it to my son, simply
> because as a visual learner and big fan of instant gratification
> *impatiently sneeks a finger under the edge of the slate to try and see 
> what
>
> is coming out on the back of the paper, and gets pinched* I am not a big 
> fan
>
> of the slate.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> Heather:
>>
>> I hate getting into this (smile) because everybody won't agree, but .....
>>
>> First I must ask you and others to treat the opinions and positions of
>> others with more respect.  While they may be different from yours, the
>> people who state them presumably have good reasons for stating them, as 
>> do
>
>> you.
>>
>> Next, I find your generalizations about the slate to be disturbing and
>> depressing.  I don't know you, or your place in life, but I would guess
>> you are a sighted person, possibly with a blind child.  You mention a
>> blind Mother.
>>
>> Would you, as a sighted person give up a pencil or pen and paper.  I 
>> doubt
>
>> it.  While you may not use them all the time, when you need them, nothing
>> else will do.  This is in part what the slate and stylus are for blind
>> persons.  Yes, many people, including blind persons will put them down,
>> but I suspect that in many instances they have not been taught well, so
>> are minimized.  While we teach kids to write with a pencil before e 
>> giving
>
>> them a computer as a primary tool, we think nothing about having them
>> learn to write with a Braille Writer, then give them a slate.  Who would
>> want it then.
>>
>> I am one of those over-50 persons you mention.  I use the slate 
>> regularly,
>
>> as I also use technology.  I have used technology heavily since the early
>> 80's, and was the first Director of the NFB's International Braille and
>> Technology Center, and still make my living with technology.  So, I don't
>> think you can plausibly say I couldn't adjust to technology.  Likewise,
>> Mike  Freeman who wrote the original message which you seemed to hold in
>> such disdain has been a computer programmer since the early 80's I think,
>> uses talking cell phone, Braille Sense, etc.  We love our technology, but
>> want to have all possible tools available to us, including the slate.
>>
>> A couple years ago, I attended a training session, costing over $500.  It
>> was Minnesota and the winter and I slipped and fell, on the ice, on my 
>> way
>
>> there.  When I got there, I discovered my Pac Mate wouldn't work.  So, if
>> I hadn't also had a slate and stylus and been proficient with their use,
>> it would have been $500 down the drain because I couldn't take notes.
>>
>> Blind people need all the tools we can get, and we need to use the right
>> one at the right time.  That includes the slate and stylus which is good
>> for quick notes, in emergencies, where there is no electricity or when
>> batteries are dead, and much more.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> At 07:05 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I know,
>>>children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men or
>>>women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a pinch,
>>>but honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a regular
>>>basis. Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because
>>>they were not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can
>>>understand and sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother
>>>laughed when I showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up
>>>on list.  For confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on
>>>the list, list emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could
>>>honestly say that I know over two hundred to three hundred blind people,
>>>and I asked on a list serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents 
>>>and
>
>>>one for blind students, and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be
>>>kidding"  I think her four year old would best be served to learn how to
>>>use a cell phone or home phone to call his mother and to dial 911.  I
>>>think he should be learning on a braille note, voice recorder or how to
>>>use a victor reader or ipod touch. Things like that, plus basic braille
>>>and print literacy.
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>>A slate and stylus!
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>>To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>>Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my experience
>>>>>is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman said
>>>>>she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to
>>>>>keep up with her peers in technology, so what assistive
>>>>>technology/technology is here  -- should she start using with her 
>>>>>child?
>>>>>
>>>>>Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 15:19:54 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:19:54 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1><4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com><3DD9965C4F424064880DED59473A8D8D@JkTC4D1><1E66DEA2-C3C4-494D-B0D3-548D2F1D40C8@gopbc.org><EEA75D93264548FC91E877017FFF0A8B@7PYZPJ1>
	<BAY113-DS1607AC6ACB4B4BF974D06DEB460@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5494D01B19B945D3A7DA7622468373B3@7PYZPJ1>

I wish people would stop saying that I said it should never be taught to a 
blind child.  I must have written over a dozen posts saying that exposing 
young children to the brailler, slate, computer, not to mention tons of 
adapted and non-adapted toys is a good thing to do.  And reversal is a good 
word to use, it is true.  The line is reversed.  It is the reverse of a left 
to right line, no one can dispute that with out lying.  We have gone back 
and forth about the cells not being reversed, and it is true, in the context 
of the line they are not reversed, because the whole line is reversed.  Like 
when you multiply two negative numbers together, you get a positive. 
Reverse the line, and the letters are reversed.  And before that gets out of 
hand, I am not saying the slate is negative, I am using the negative sign in 
mathematics as an example.  Positive number, times a negative becomes 
negative, forwards letter, by reversed line equals reversed letters in the 
context of the brailler produced page.  And "Win?"  I am not trying to win 
anything.  This is a debate, a discussion, not an arguement or a fight, or a 
contest even.  The goal is for me to listen to you and evaluate your 
statements and incoorperate them into my life experience and for you to 
listen to me and incoorperate my statements into your life experience. 
Another note before I get  my self into trouble.  By incorperate I mean 
agree, disagree, agree with some and disagree with others, etc, then add 
that to the running list of information we use to proccess our world.  I am 
not saying that I must agree with every thing you say or that you must agree 
with everything I say.  As I have stated other places, the one sentence 
response of a slate, and nothing else for four year old technologies to help 
them keep up with their peers is what concerned me, not the use of the slate 
at all.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Okay, Heather, you're not going to "win" this one.  Even I, who hates the 
> slate, sees the value in having one.  I did learn to use the Brailler long 
> before the slate because I couldn't get the reversals.  I think the person 
> who introduced it may have used those words "reverse" and "backwards" that 
> you shouldn't use.  So I didn't start until fifth grade, when I finally 
> got it.
> Even taking class notes all the way from seven thrade through college, I 
> did not become a proficient user.  No, it wasn't because I hated it and 
> wouldn't get better by forgoing the Brailler altogether.  It was because I 
> did not have the wrist strength even after all the time.  I would always 
> tire after about ten minutes of writing continuously.
> So do I disagree with the proponents of the slate, maybe, but I do think 
> it should be in the blind child's toolbox.  A sighted child has all the 
> tools so why not the blind child.  If you have or adopt a blind child, 
> feel free not to teach its use but one day the PDA may quit suddenly and 
> the voice recorder may go dead because you forgot to change batteries and 
> then where are you.  Oh, I forgot, the Stream got left at home.  Slates 
> don't take up much space and regular paper will hold dots in a pinch.  No 
> I haven't taken it out of my purse sinci I put it there.  But it is there 
> just in case.
> Barbara
>
> A Congress that will always do its work in the dark must have something to 
> hide.  The people have spoken, yet they do not listen.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:02 PM
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>> I can see some limited situations where it would be the only option, and 
>> by all means, if someone likes one, they should use it.  Just so long as 
>> the use of that technology doesn't prevent them from using other 
>> technologies such as tiny voice recorders, braille note takers, etc. 
>> And, by all means, introduce her to one, but don't be surprised or 
>> offended if some day your daughter refuses to carry one, or hell, loves 
>> it, but refuses to carry a mini voice recorder.  The best thing to do is 
>> explain the complex pros and cons of all technologies and then let them 
>> decide.  I personallly, and many other blind people find them out dated 
>> and stigmatizing and love the fitting inn and the freedom that texting 
>> them self or voice mailing them self a short note, instead of writing it 
>> on a slate and styalis gives them. Others, who are super vigilent about 
>> not being obtrusive, that is people with Howard Gardiner's intra 
>> personal, not interpersonal multiple intelligence, really prefer the low 
>> profile, quiet option of a slate and styalis.  I, as a mom on the go, 
>> with a full diaper bag, a purse, a guide dog and a toddler in toe would 
>> never in a million years dream of carrying something so long and that 
>> requires the use of both hands, as I can simply call my own voice mail 
>> and leave my self a quick voice reminder of things I want to get at the 
>> grocery store, while walking down the street.  But, I know there are some 
>> blind people, in the world, I do not know them personally, that do prefer 
>> to use this particular technology.  I don't know how old your daughter 
>> is, but I have a feeling that when she is a teen ager, going through the 
>> teen age years she will scorn your slate and styalis and scorn my 
>> braillenote in favor of some new technology that neither of us can even 
>> imagine right now.  Kids will always want the newest greatest thing, and 
>> if you at least expose her to a slate, she might decide that she does in 
>> fact like it, when she is an adult, or she might hate it.  There is no 
>> way of knowing.  Final note. Speaking from a social perspective.  It is 
>> far less stigmatizing for a blind person to whip out a cell phone than a 
>> slate, to take notes on a lap top than a perkins brailler, to read books 
>> on a victer reader stream or a braille note than to lug around huge 
>> braille text books or immense braille novels.  I am not saying that a 
>> person's entire life should be dictated by fashion or appearances, but 
>> even blind people who understand the importance of braille literacy and 
>> thank their parents every day for teaching them how to read braille. 
>> Even blind people who appreciate the engenuity of the people who first 
>> invented things like the perkins brailler, the dimo tape labler and the 
>> slate, and who will always pick whichever technology gets the job done 
>> best in a pinch, do realize that carrying around two or three huge 
>> volumes of braille is ackward, or that at the end of a weary day, they 
>> have to educate the public less, answer less questions, etc, if they are 
>> using their cell rather than a slate.  I hate having to carry around a 
>> heavy brailler and huge thick text books, and I don't do it unless I have 
>> to, because it is time consuming, space consuming, makes me look like a 
>> dork and makes me stand out.  But, I am not so proud that I refuse to use 
>> my brailler for higher level math or if my braille note gets broken.  I 
>> am not so ignorant or proud that I won't get a foreign language book in 
>> braille, because, unlike a history or psychology text it is not as 
>> benificial in electronic or audeo form.  I just shrug when people laugh, 
>> or make fun of me, or ask me why I am not using a book on tape or my lap 
>> top, and say "Yeah, I prefer those, but for this subject, this is the 
>> best thing for the job, but it is a pain in the butt."  I feel that way 
>> about my cane, as a guide dog user.  I actively hate my cane.  I feel 
>> stupid using it, I hate how it makes noise in a quiet room or hallway and 
>> draws attention to me.  But, I am not so proud or stupid that I would not 
>> use one and make myself unsafe when I am inbetween a retired guide and a 
>> replacer guide.  And, some people prefer canes, which is their right. 
>> And everyone has different priorities.  The embarrassment of having your 
>> very ill guide dog have explosive diareah in public is hundreds of times 
>> worse than the day to day embarrasement of your cane making noise or 
>> making you stand out, or tripping people, even if you are using proper 
>> techniques.  But the amazing exploding dog incident may never happen for 
>> people, or only once per dog guide, and most people are likely to 
>> sympathize with the sick dog, once they realize that is the problem, they 
>> are not likely to feel sorry for and forgive a white cane that trips them 
>> as they run to class.  Some blind people don't feel like dealing with the 
>> hastles of potential access issues with uninformed people refusing them 
>> enterance or service because of a guide dog, because they are not good 
>> with confrontations.  These people often prefer older more limited but 
>> far more reliable technologies, because slates and braillers and abacuses 
>> take a lot more abuse and don't die cold turkey like electronic 
>> technologies can.  It's a comfort zone/life style thing. Sighted example 
>> then.  I think it is stupid to refuse to use a GPS all together, because 
>> they do make things far more efficent, but I agree that it is equally 
>> stupid not to keep a basic working knowledge of your city and know how to 
>> use a map in a pinch.  Ok, I'm done.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:34 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>>> Recently, I needed to jot down a phone number in a hurry in a loud and 
>>> socially awkward situation. (I am sighted.) Could not find a pen or 
>>> pencil so I went for my Blackberry and in the confusion, congestion  and 
>>> noise the task became overwhelming. I use my BB often and with  ease, 
>>> but at that moment I had the hardest time trying to talk with  several 
>>> people and focus on opening something (and to see the tiny  keys and 
>>> text with my bifocals in a dark room) where I could manage to  type in a 
>>> simple 10 digit number. All I needed right then was a  simple pen.
>>>
>>> It is for that sort of situation that I want my daughter to ultimately 
>>> be prepared to grab that slate and stylus, if nothing else.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>
>>>> I never got that  Heather did not support the introduction or use of  a 
>>>> slate
>>>> and stylus, just that in this technology age, as I understood the 
>>>> question
>>>> as posed   technologies are key to introduce to children as early as
>>>> possible.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one 
>>>> who is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:00 AM
>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>> Dear Heather,
>>>> I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper 
>>>> Braille,
>>>> neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or  pencil. 
>>>> I know
>>>> hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties, 
>>>> thirties
>>>> and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it, 
>>>> own
>>>> Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find 
>>>> times on
>>>> a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
>>>> slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
>>>> regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions 
>>>> down in
>>>> interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has 
>>>> more
>>>> than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at 
>>>> another
>>>> place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the  small 
>>>> slate
>>>> and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes 
>>>> only
>>>> independent option. All these people only turn to this because they 
>>>> have
>>>> proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that  those 
>>>> who do
>>>> not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use.  Because 
>>>> you
>>>> do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that 
>>>> such a
>>>> strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I 
>>>> might add
>>>> who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them  to 
>>>> some
>>>> degree of proficiency.
>>>>
>>>> As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure 
>>>> out the
>>>> slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given 
>>>> thousands of
>>>> attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and  making 
>>>> marks.
>>>> Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a 
>>>> bad idea
>>>> to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble 
>>>> the
>>>> teacher might feel and is transferred.
>>>>
>>>> Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There  is 
>>>> no
>>>> reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is 
>>>> true that
>>>> I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and 
>>>> the
>>>> slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on 
>>>> the
>>>> Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate 
>>>> first
>>>> (even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and  then 
>>>> add
>>>> the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the  slate. 
>>>> It is
>>>> indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate 
>>>> "in"
>>>> these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often 
>>>> "easier"
>>>> at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
>>>> Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to 
>>>> accept the
>>>> slate the longer you wait.
>>>>
>>>> I have known several blind students (including an international 
>>>> student age
>>>> 16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never  did 
>>>> like
>>>> the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a 
>>>> pen. You
>>>> use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.
>>>>
>>>> The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength 
>>>> further
>>>> for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken  to 
>>>> learn
>>>> to write print as well.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> Carrie Gilmer
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Heather
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I 
>>>> know,
>>>> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men 
>>>> or
>>>> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a 
>>>> pinch, but
>>>> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a  regular 
>>>> basis.
>>>>
>>>> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because  they 
>>>> were
>>>> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can 
>>>> understand and
>>>>
>>>> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed  when 
>>>> I
>>>> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list. 
>>>> For
>>>> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, 
>>>> list
>>>> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly  say 
>>>> that I
>>>>
>>>> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on  a 
>>>> list
>>>> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
>>>> students,
>>>>
>>>> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think  her 
>>>> four
>>>> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or  home 
>>>> phone
>>>>
>>>> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning  on 
>>>> a
>>>> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod 
>>>> touch.
>>>> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my 
>>>>>> experience is
>>>>>> with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman  said 
>>>>>> she
>>>>>> had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to 
>>>>>> keep up
>>>>>> with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/ 
>>>>>> technology is
>>>>>> here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
>>>> er.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>>> blindkid:
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>>>> ail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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From missheather at comcast.net  Fri Feb 19 15:16:58 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:16:58 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Using a slate and stylus
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony><D7DDFD40BB8D45E58B0D7C8929D4FF99@owner1e06aeb63><23AFD37A-0C25-4B6B-8C1C-71BC1750508B@gopbc.org>
	<5A37B3FBF4624325A288D485CDFD3683@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <C08AAAB4F91D4781B90F322B1D31E227@heathersony>

Dear Heather,
We are discussing two separate things here. One is how children can be 
taught the slate without reversal issues, the other is whether the 
letters are, in fact, written in reverse to how they are read. In my 
experience the two issues are unrelated.

I was responding to the assertion that young children would experience 
difficulty using the slate and stylus because they have problems with 
reversals. My statement that they would not, if taught correctly, was 
based on my personal experience of over thirty years as an early 
childhood educator. If children are taught the dots that make up a 
letter thoroughly, so that they can recite them instantly when asked, 
then they do not have difficulty writing the letters, no matter where 
the dot positions are located. To prove this to dubious parents and 
teachers I have, from time to time, turned the slate sideways, so that 
dots one, two and three are along the top and four, five and six are 
across the bottom. My kindergarten and first grade children had no 
trouble writing whatever I request. So, in this I am demonstrating 
that properly prepared, well taught young children will not have 
trouble with reversals when writing on a slate. They don't relate the 
two tasks, reading and writing. One is an active placing of the stylus 
in dot positions. The other is touching and reading a letter of a 
certain shape that has a specific motor triggering, from practised 
exposure, in their brain.

Your statement regarding the facts of reversed, or backwards position 
of letters, is a different issue and does not have any relation to my 
stated experience with teaching slate use to young, blind children. In 
my experience it would not matter if we wrote from left to right, top 
to bottom or bottom to top. It is not an issue of reversals but a 
matter of insufficient or inferior teaching on proper dot position and 
letter construction which cause children problems. So, whether or not 
the letters must be written backwards or not is of no consequence if 
children are taught correctly.

Now let me speak briefly to another issue. Your prioritizing of 
knowing how to dial 911 as more important than knowing how to use a 
slate is a false comparison, like saying apples are more important 
than oranges. Is it more important to know how to count or to tie 
one's shoes? Is it more important to know how to button your coat or 
to know grade level spelling? These kinds of questions cannot be 
answered without being framed in a context. Without context no 
educational claims can be validated. For example, if a child lives in 
northern Australia, then he/she will likely never wear an over coat. 
Therefore, spelling will be far, far more important to that child. As 
Australia also has no 911 service, that skill too will be of no use. 
Similarly, counting is only important to young children if they are 
given experiences where counting is important, such as setting the 
table or keeping track of their own money. Knowing how to tie their 
shoes may have very important consequences if they are socially 
stigmatized in cub scouts or brownies because, at age eight, they 
still cannot tie their shoes. In the same way, to be able to copy down 
a new friends name and phone number on your slate may have far more 
impact in a young blind child's life than knowing how to dial 911. A 
skill's value is determined, for the most part, by it's usefulness to 
a child within the context of their life experiences. So, while such a 
comparison of skills based on hypothetical value may seem to prove an 
educational priority, in reality the claim does not prove correct.

Warmest regards,

Heather Field

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


The. Cells. Are backwards.  No, they are not backwards in the context 
of the
sentence, because the writing is also reversed, but when making the 
cells on
the slate, they are backwards.  An L is dots 1,2,3 and if you are to 
think
of the dots on the slate as being the ordinary way, and I am not 
saying that
is the correct way to go about it, but if you did, for the sake of
arguement, then L would be dots 4,5,6, which is backwards.  So, the 
cells
are forwards in the context of the sentence, but the sentence is 
backwards,
and so the cells are backwards in the context of the child's prior
experience and personal context.  If we look at Lev Vidgotski's zone 
of
proximal development, what the child has from early exposure in 
braille
books is contrary to the experience of how to braille on a slate. 
Does that
mean it should never be taught?  That it can never be mastered or
understood?  Of course not, but saying that it is not backwards is a 
bit
confusing and convoluted to a small child.  What I think, from an 
early
childhood educator's perspective, might be helpful is to show the 
child who
understands basic words of at least three letters how writing the 
braille
writer way, left to right and forwards on a slate yields backwards 
writing,
then help them problem solve to find out how to make it look right on 
the
back of the paper.  Let them experement with writing backwards letters 
left
to right, forwards letters right to left, backwards letters right to 
left,
and keep having them compare and contrast until they get the 
orientation of
the paper and the letters.  If you just say "Just do it this way 
because I
say so" they are likely to get angry and frustrated at the difficulty, 
but
if you help them be a part of the proccess and the solution, they are 
more
likely to embrace the new activity.  Imagine if you at four or five 
were
suddenly told "Ok, you are just beginning to master which way letters 
go and
how they look and now I want you to write them one way on this machine 
and
the completely reversed way on this machine."  "Why?"  "Because that 
makes
it look right and I said so, end of story."  I remember in first grade 
being
so frustrated.  I would make a few letters then open the slate, take 
out the
paper and investigate it.  I wanted to try doing it the "right" way to 
see
why that didn't work.  I wanted to have explanations and to play a 
bit, but
I was told to "Put the paper back in and do your work."  For very 
young
children, having to keep their place, with out being able to see the 
letters
being created is also a difficult skill to master when it is first
introduced.  Perhaps place holding activities in lines of letters and
numbers would be helpful, or practicing writing on a brailler or 
reading a
book and being mindful of their position in a word without having to 
look
back.  Think how upsetting it would be to learn that those cute things 
that
meow are "cats" and you are so proud that you can write cats, but 
being only
four or five, while you are trying to remember how the c and the a 
sound and
look, and how they sound and look together, then add a t into the mix, 
and
while you are trying to think about how the letters look, you are also
remembering to write right to left, make sure the letters are 
correctly
oriented for that dirrection, while trying to sound out the word to 
make
sure you don't miss any letters, and then you add in the math of 
trying to
remember which cell you are in because you can't feel what is coming 
out on
the paper?  God, if I were four I would burst into tears over all of 
that.,
Let them master phonix first, or basic math first, or just recognizing 
and
producing left to right, forward facing letters first.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>> This confusion or lack of specificity in precisely stating what the
>> difference between making cells on a braillewriter versus making 
>> them on
>> a slate is, I submit, a great part of the problem. Lack of 
>> precision in
>> thinking leads to lack of precision in results!
>
> I  cannot speak for the others in this discussion, but I am not 
> entirely
> convinced that either my or my seven-year-old's "lack of  precision 
> in
> thinking" has a great deal to do with her potential to  master the 
> use of
> a slate and stylus.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>


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From seacknit at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 16:55:29 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:55:29 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <5494D01B19B945D3A7DA7622468373B3@7PYZPJ1>
References: <875691E5DD034998A604AD8F6B47197C@7PYZPJ1><4b7d63fe.0d0bca0a.714a.ffff9952@mx.google.com><3DD9965C4F424064880DED59473A8D8D@JkTC4D1><1E66DEA2-C3C4-494D-B0D3-548D2F1D40C8@gopbc.org><EEA75D93264548FC91E877017FFF0A8B@7PYZPJ1><BAY113-DS1607AC6ACB4B4BF974D06DEB460@phx.gbl>
	<5494D01B19B945D3A7DA7622468373B3@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <E92C4F5551104C64AEF801328269457F@OwnerPC>

I'm making a request that we move on now.  As one of the moderators of this 
list, it is my responsibility to ensure that all points of view are 
respected and people are given an opportunity to ask questions and receive 
thoughtful answers.  At this point we have heard people's views on the slate 
and stylus.  This list is not about one person's life story.  It is about 
sharing information.  Please make your point and offer your ideas but let's 
not slip into prolonged discussions about minutia.   It is not our intent to 
put brakes on discussions but we may have to moderate some posts if the 
discussion continues to get out of hand.

Thanks for your willingness to discuss.  Let's try to learn from each other 
and broaden our horizons.

Sally Thomas

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


>I wish people would stop saying that I said it should never be taught to a 
>blind child.  I must have written over a dozen posts saying that exposing 
>young children to the brailler, slate, computer, not to mention tons of 
>adapted and non-adapted toys is a good thing to do.  And reversal is a good 
>word to use, it is true.  The line is reversed.  It is the reverse of a 
>left to right line, no one can dispute that with out lying.  We have gone 
>back and forth about the cells not being reversed, and it is true, in the 
>context of the line they are not reversed, because the whole line is 
>reversed.  Like when you multiply two negative numbers together, you get a 
>positive. Reverse the line, and the letters are reversed.  And before that 
>gets out of hand, I am not saying the slate is negative, I am using the 
>negative sign in mathematics as an example.  Positive number, times a 
>negative becomes negative, forwards letter, by reversed line equals 
>reversed letters in the context of the brailler produced page.  And "Win?" 
>I am not trying to win anything.  This is a debate, a discussion, not an 
>arguement or a fight, or a contest even.  The goal is for me to listen to 
>you and evaluate your statements and incoorperate them into my life 
>experience and for you to listen to me and incoorperate my statements into 
>your life experience. Another note before I get  my self into trouble.  By 
>incorperate I mean agree, disagree, agree with some and disagree with 
>others, etc, then add that to the running list of information we use to 
>proccess our world.  I am not saying that I must agree with every thing you 
>say or that you must agree with everything I say.  As I have stated other 
>places, the one sentence response of a slate, and nothing else for four 
>year old technologies to help them keep up with their peers is what 
>concerned me, not the use of the slate at all.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>> Okay, Heather, you're not going to "win" this one.  Even I, who hates the 
>> slate, sees the value in having one.  I did learn to use the Brailler 
>> long before the slate because I couldn't get the reversals.  I think the 
>> person who introduced it may have used those words "reverse" and 
>> "backwards" that you shouldn't use.  So I didn't start until fifth grade, 
>> when I finally got it.
>> Even taking class notes all the way from seven thrade through college, I 
>> did not become a proficient user.  No, it wasn't because I hated it and 
>> wouldn't get better by forgoing the Brailler altogether.  It was because 
>> I did not have the wrist strength even after all the time.  I would 
>> always tire after about ten minutes of writing continuously.
>> So do I disagree with the proponents of the slate, maybe, but I do think 
>> it should be in the blind child's toolbox.  A sighted child has all the 
>> tools so why not the blind child.  If you have or adopt a blind child, 
>> feel free not to teach its use but one day the PDA may quit suddenly and 
>> the voice recorder may go dead because you forgot to change batteries and 
>> then where are you.  Oh, I forgot, the Stream got left at home.  Slates 
>> don't take up much space and regular paper will hold dots in a pinch.  No 
>> I haven't taken it out of my purse sinci I put it there.  But it is there 
>> just in case.
>> Barbara
>>
>> A Congress that will always do its work in the dark must have something 
>> to hide.  The people have spoken, yet they do not listen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:02 PM
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>> I can see some limited situations where it would be the only option, and 
>>> by all means, if someone likes one, they should use it.  Just so long as 
>>> the use of that technology doesn't prevent them from using other 
>>> technologies such as tiny voice recorders, braille note takers, etc. 
>>> And, by all means, introduce her to one, but don't be surprised or 
>>> offended if some day your daughter refuses to carry one, or hell, loves 
>>> it, but refuses to carry a mini voice recorder.  The best thing to do is 
>>> explain the complex pros and cons of all technologies and then let them 
>>> decide.  I personallly, and many other blind people find them out dated 
>>> and stigmatizing and love the fitting inn and the freedom that texting 
>>> them self or voice mailing them self a short note, instead of writing it 
>>> on a slate and styalis gives them. Others, who are super vigilent about 
>>> not being obtrusive, that is people with Howard Gardiner's intra 
>>> personal, not interpersonal multiple intelligence, really prefer the low 
>>> profile, quiet option of a slate and styalis.  I, as a mom on the go, 
>>> with a full diaper bag, a purse, a guide dog and a toddler in toe would 
>>> never in a million years dream of carrying something so long and that 
>>> requires the use of both hands, as I can simply call my own voice mail 
>>> and leave my self a quick voice reminder of things I want to get at the 
>>> grocery store, while walking down the street.  But, I know there are 
>>> some blind people, in the world, I do not know them personally, that do 
>>> prefer to use this particular technology.  I don't know how old your 
>>> daughter is, but I have a feeling that when she is a teen ager, going 
>>> through the teen age years she will scorn your slate and styalis and 
>>> scorn my braillenote in favor of some new technology that neither of us 
>>> can even imagine right now.  Kids will always want the newest greatest 
>>> thing, and if you at least expose her to a slate, she might decide that 
>>> she does in fact like it, when she is an adult, or she might hate it. 
>>> There is no way of knowing.  Final note. Speaking from a social 
>>> perspective.  It is far less stigmatizing for a blind person to whip out 
>>> a cell phone than a slate, to take notes on a lap top than a perkins 
>>> brailler, to read books on a victer reader stream or a braille note than 
>>> to lug around huge braille text books or immense braille novels.  I am 
>>> not saying that a person's entire life should be dictated by fashion or 
>>> appearances, but even blind people who understand the importance of 
>>> braille literacy and thank their parents every day for teaching them how 
>>> to read braille. Even blind people who appreciate the engenuity of the 
>>> people who first invented things like the perkins brailler, the dimo 
>>> tape labler and the slate, and who will always pick whichever technology 
>>> gets the job done best in a pinch, do realize that carrying around two 
>>> or three huge volumes of braille is ackward, or that at the end of a 
>>> weary day, they have to educate the public less, answer less questions, 
>>> etc, if they are using their cell rather than a slate.  I hate having to 
>>> carry around a heavy brailler and huge thick text books, and I don't do 
>>> it unless I have to, because it is time consuming, space consuming, 
>>> makes me look like a dork and makes me stand out.  But, I am not so 
>>> proud that I refuse to use my brailler for higher level math or if my 
>>> braille note gets broken.  I am not so ignorant or proud that I won't 
>>> get a foreign language book in braille, because, unlike a history or 
>>> psychology text it is not as benificial in electronic or audeo form.  I 
>>> just shrug when people laugh, or make fun of me, or ask me why I am not 
>>> using a book on tape or my lap top, and say "Yeah, I prefer those, but 
>>> for this subject, this is the best thing for the job, but it is a pain 
>>> in the butt."  I feel that way about my cane, as a guide dog user.  I 
>>> actively hate my cane.  I feel stupid using it, I hate how it makes 
>>> noise in a quiet room or hallway and draws attention to me.  But, I am 
>>> not so proud or stupid that I would not use one and make myself unsafe 
>>> when I am inbetween a retired guide and a replacer guide.  And, some 
>>> people prefer canes, which is their right. And everyone has different 
>>> priorities.  The embarrassment of having your very ill guide dog have 
>>> explosive diareah in public is hundreds of times worse than the day to 
>>> day embarrasement of your cane making noise or making you stand out, or 
>>> tripping people, even if you are using proper techniques.  But the 
>>> amazing exploding dog incident may never happen for people, or only once 
>>> per dog guide, and most people are likely to sympathize with the sick 
>>> dog, once they realize that is the problem, they are not likely to feel 
>>> sorry for and forgive a white cane that trips them as they run to class. 
>>> Some blind people don't feel like dealing with the hastles of potential 
>>> access issues with uninformed people refusing them enterance or service 
>>> because of a guide dog, because they are not good with confrontations. 
>>> These people often prefer older more limited but far more reliable 
>>> technologies, because slates and braillers and abacuses take a lot more 
>>> abuse and don't die cold turkey like electronic technologies can.  It's 
>>> a comfort zone/life style thing. Sighted example then.  I think it is 
>>> stupid to refuse to use a GPS all together, because they do make things 
>>> far more efficent, but I agree that it is equally stupid not to keep a 
>>> basic working knowledge of your city and know how to use a map in a 
>>> pinch.  Ok, I'm done.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:34 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> Recently, I needed to jot down a phone number in a hurry in a loud and 
>>>> socially awkward situation. (I am sighted.) Could not find a pen or 
>>>> pencil so I went for my Blackberry and in the confusion, congestion 
>>>> and noise the task became overwhelming. I use my BB often and with 
>>>> ease, but at that moment I had the hardest time trying to talk with 
>>>> several people and focus on opening something (and to see the tiny 
>>>> keys and text with my bifocals in a dark room) where I could manage to 
>>>> type in a simple 10 digit number. All I needed right then was a  simple 
>>>> pen.
>>>>
>>>> It is for that sort of situation that I want my daughter to ultimately 
>>>> be prepared to grab that slate and stylus, if nothing else.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I never got that  Heather did not support the introduction or use of 
>>>>> a slate
>>>>> and stylus, just that in this technology age, as I understood the 
>>>>> question
>>>>> as posed   technologies are key to introduce to children as early as
>>>>> possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one 
>>>>> who is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
>>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:00 AM
>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Heather,
>>>>> I strongly disagree. Just as Braille is not outdated. Even paper 
>>>>> Braille,
>>>>> neither is the slate and stylus as is also neither the pen or  pencil. 
>>>>> I know
>>>>> hundreds of blind people as well. I know many in their twenties, 
>>>>> thirties
>>>>> and one in his teens (my son) who are absolutely proficient with it, 
>>>>> own
>>>>> Braille Notes or other notetakers (electronic), and yet still find 
>>>>> times on
>>>>> a weekly if not daily basis to jot something down most conveniently by
>>>>> slate. My employer who is a federal investigator with a federal agency
>>>>> regularly uses it for one, for note taking and for writing questions 
>>>>> down in
>>>>> interviewing witnesses, charging parties and respondents. My son has 
>>>>> more
>>>>> than once found himself in class with a crashed BrailleNote, or at 
>>>>> another
>>>>> place where it was inconvenient to carry the technology and the  small 
>>>>> slate
>>>>> and note cards served him well. Indeed it was the best and sometimes 
>>>>> only
>>>>> independent option. All these people only turn to this because they 
>>>>> have
>>>>> proficiency in it. The abysmal truth is that I would wager that  those 
>>>>> who do
>>>>> not use the slate are those who are not proficient in its use. 
>>>>> Because you
>>>>> do not have proficiency or others you know I think it troubling that 
>>>>> such a
>>>>> strong dismissal of the tool as archaic is given here. And those I 
>>>>> might add
>>>>> who "could use them in a pinch" had at one time learned to use them 
>>>>> to some
>>>>> degree of proficiency.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as age goes, it is a myth that a four year old can not figure 
>>>>> out the
>>>>> slate. Four year old sighted children have already been given 
>>>>> thousands of
>>>>> attempts at the fine motor skill of holding a writing tool and  making 
>>>>> marks.
>>>>> Then they work at getting the marks more and more accurate. It is a 
>>>>> bad idea
>>>>> to teach it as backwards, typically any trouble is only the trouble 
>>>>> the
>>>>> teacher might feel and is transferred.
>>>>>
>>>>> Children learn hundreds of differing things at the same time. There 
>>>>> is no
>>>>> reason to exclude technology or low tech things at this age. It is 
>>>>> true that
>>>>> I have seen some difficulty with learning typing on the Perkins and 
>>>>> the
>>>>> slate at the same exact time. I think it fine to scribble or play on 
>>>>> the
>>>>> Perkins, but if it were my child I would teach the basic of slate 
>>>>> first
>>>>> (even starting earlier than four for holding and making dots) and 
>>>>> then add
>>>>> the Perkins, keeping up daily practice of small writings on the 
>>>>> slate. It is
>>>>> indeed very difficult and requires much dedication to get the slate 
>>>>> "in"
>>>>> these days. WE always drift to the easier thing, Perkins if often 
>>>>> "easier"
>>>>> at first as is keyboard or six electronic entry "easier" than the
>>>>> Perkins...so it becomes more difficult for a student or child to 
>>>>> accept the
>>>>> slate the longer you wait.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have known several blind students (including an international 
>>>>> student age
>>>>> 16 from Ukraine we hosted once) who only used the slate and never  did 
>>>>> like
>>>>> the Perkins and could write as fast with a stylus and I can with a 
>>>>> pen. You
>>>>> use what you know, what is proficient is what seems easiest.
>>>>>
>>>>> The use of a stylus also can aid in developing fine motor strength 
>>>>> further
>>>>> for learning cursive for signatures and if time and effort is taken 
>>>>> to learn
>>>>> to write print as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Carrie Gilmer
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
>>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Heather
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:05 AM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>>
>>>>> No disrespect, but you've got to be kidding me.  No blind people I 
>>>>> know,
>>>>> children or adults, down right brilliant to mentally challenged, men 
>>>>> or
>>>>> women use those anymore.  Many own them, and could use them in a 
>>>>> pinch, but
>>>>> honestly, no one uses them as a main means of writing or on a  regular 
>>>>> basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some people in the fifty or older set still rely on them, because 
>>>>> they were
>>>>> not able to keep up with the changing technology, which I can 
>>>>> understand and
>>>>>
>>>>> sympathize with, but even my sixty year old blind mother laughed  when 
>>>>> I
>>>>> showed her this, or rather told her that this had come up on list. For
>>>>> confidentiality reasons I never show any one who is not on the list, 
>>>>> list
>>>>> emails, and never give names or any spacifics..  I could honestly  say 
>>>>> that I
>>>>>
>>>>> know over two hundred to three hundred blind people, and I asked on  a 
>>>>> list
>>>>> serve for guide dog users, one for blind parents and one for blind 
>>>>> students,
>>>>>
>>>>> and the uunanomous answer was "You've got to be kidding"  I think  her 
>>>>> four
>>>>> year old would best be served to learn how to use a cell phone or 
>>>>> home phone
>>>>>
>>>>> to call his mother and to dial 911.  I think he should be learning  on 
>>>>> a
>>>>> braille note, voice recorder or how to use a victor reader or ipod 
>>>>> touch.
>>>>> Things like that, plus basic braille and print literacy.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A slate and stylus!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:01 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my 
>>>>>>> experience is
>>>>>>> with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.  A woman  said 
>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>> had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she wanted her to 
>>>>>>> keep up
>>>>>>> with her peers in technology, so what assistive technology/ 
>>>>>>> technology is
>>>>>>> here  -- should she start using with her child?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
>>>>> er.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>>>>> ot.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Feb 19 18:22:43 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:22:43 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Kids and Technology
Message-ID: <auto-000140533408@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Well, it looks like I opened up multiple cans of worms when I asked 
about technology for young kids.  We have had some good discussion 
here, and some good ideas -- however, we have also wandered from the 
primary intent of the list too.  And ... so no body thinks I am 
picking on them personally, I am a part of this too.

This list is sponsored by NFB's Parents of Blind Children 
division.  That division is primarily made up of sighted parents with 
blind children.  We also have, on the list some blind parents, and 
some other blind persons who are here to learn and to 
contribute.  However, in the past day I am afraid the conversation by 
and among blind persons has come to dominate the list.  We have 
probably discussed this one to death, so I ask everybody to move on 
and drop the slate and stylus stuff!

David Andrews, List Owner




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 18:27:38 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:27:38 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Australia
Message-ID: <90F4C99B9EB347319C526E7315B34DC7@7PYZPJ1>

    Emergency code for Austrilia, 000, for New Zealand, 111

In Australia, snow can fall in the mountains of Victoria, Australian Capital Territory, New South Wales and Tasmania. There is a regular snow season in several areas which have seasonal ski tourism industries. Sometimes snow has even been reported in the mountains of South Australia, Western Australia and Queensland though this is very rare.

Snow at sea level has been recorded on mainland Australia but has happened more times in Tasmania, some of the snow at sea level has fallen in the off season like summer. Snow has fallen nearly everywhere in Tasmania, though it is rare to fall in the north coast at sea level.

The occasional cold snap, caused by cold air drifting north from Antarctica, can cause significant snowfall in rural areas, as well as major cities such as Hobart, Melbourne's outer mountain suburbs, Canberra and Sydney. Such occasions are rare, but have occurred in 1951, 1986 and 2005. 

From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 18:37:03 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:37:03 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Mandy Sue Day
Message-ID: <1650B40F48244FDDA990CF3E1DCF0ACC@7PYZPJ1>

I presented this book to my group and we have decided to use it along with activities to guess what things are by their scent, feel, taste and sound, with different mystery sets of 25 items each for each of the four senses, as well as a section on color, to be comprehensive and address all five senses.  We are also including in our kit a science component on different breeds of horses, a literature component where the students, preschoolers will be describing an object only with sensoory description, and the other students will have to figure out what they are describing.  This will be put into a class poetry book.  We will also be labeling the entire print book in clear tape with braille in grade one if it will fit, grade two if not, as well as selecting a series of vocabulary words that we will be providing cards with dirrections for their sign language equivolents, as well as cards with the French, German, Italian and Spanish translations.  We will also include a resource guide for local people who are willing to supplement the kit by coming in and giving presentations on white canes, guide dogs, braille, competition hourseback riding, etc.  Thanks so much for all of your suggestions.  Several people suggested this book in particular and it turned out to be an excellent fit for what we are doing.  We are also thinking of a game in which different kids will put in ear plugs, put on dark glasses, or not be able to talk, and they will be put into groups of three, with one each of the three simulated disabilities of deafness, blindness and muteness, and given a task to perform working together.  Thanks again for all of the help, this is going to be a fun project.

From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 19:43:29 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:43:29 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony><5DA8F43793074E069630137ABA736E15@JkTC4D1>
	<C9DBC6131B76435E842C05E28E80929A@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <1367331A338D4870B52CCC3F15562AD9@LivingRoom>

I am going to make just one comment here. At seven years old, I began first 
grade which is when I began learning Braille. this was some years ago at the 
School for the Blind in Berkeley, CA. At that time, I began learning on the 
Braille writer. Then, one day when I got sick and had to go to the school 
infirmery, the girl who was my room mate was in third or fourth grade. The 
nurse brought her a slate and stylus and though I had seen them, I hadn't 
learned how to use one. I distinctly remember her telling me a little about 
how  to use the thing and low and behold, because I was determined to do 
some writing to occupy myself, within the hour I was writing up a blue 
streek. It was great fun and I used the cool piece of tech through college 
(dating myself). Here's the deal. When writing with the Braille writer, you 
have to remember that the 1 is on the left and you write and read from the 
left. No right involved. When writing with the slate, the 1 is on the right 
and you write from the right. The only time you do anything from the left is 
when you turn the paper over and read from the left. At my current age, 
writing for long periods on the slate hurts my wrist though using the softer 
paper helps a lot. However, in the past week, I have written things down 
twice because I carry one in my purse, no matter what else I have with me 
and believe me, away from home it is never a Perkins, there is always a 
slate and stylus with me.

I cannot say that using a slate and stylus would have been the same had I 
had the option of a BrailleNote and computer. My daughter, Aubrie, 13, knows 
how to use the S&S but definitely does not use it much compared with her BN 
and the computer.
With that, my best suggestion (hope I'm not out-of-line for saying this) I 
think it's time to find something else to write about.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid


> Several people have brought up the reversal issue and I think it depends 
> on the age it is introduced, because for someone who already knows braille 
> it might literally mean reversing the letters, whereas if a kid learns it 
> in kindergardin both brailler and slate might become second nature. 
> Bottom line, as a home educator of my own son I would show him both, and 
> if he took to the slate like a duck to water, i would encourage him, but 
> if it frustrated him to the point where he wanted nothing to do with 
> braille or the perkins, it would be put on hold.  I would like him to be 
> proficent at both, but I want him to naturally love reading both in 
> braille and on recorded media, and if pushing a particular skill looked as 
> if it would harm that natural love of learning, especially learning 
> literature and braille, I would not allow that to happen.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>
>
>>I do not even know where to begin. First wow! these few  threads have 
>>given
>> me more insight and have shifted my position on things as never before. 
>> 1. I
>> am sickened by the fact that braille is not introduced to children at as
>> early an age as possible. 2. I have learned how mentors can  color 
>> choices
>> by predetermining  what is or is not best for children and 
>> unintentionally
>> limit that children's academic growth. 3. I learned braille as a sighted
>> person and I too was forced to believe that writing braile with a slate 
>> and
>> stylus was best learned by inverting  or perverting braille as I now have
>> learned. In this one thread I understood and now own why I do not and
>> eventually will carry a slate and stylus as I was inverting or reversing 
>> the
>> image. when I used my perkins brailler I see the dots on the page just as 
>> I
>> would feel them as I ran my fingers across the page. Now I realize that 
>> is
>> what keeps me from using a slate. I either use a hand held recorder which
>> unnerves others, or as I recently experienced  an intern of mine only 
>> uses
>> his computer. We were in a meeting and he did nothing but tap tap tap on 
>> the
>> computer. I had to stop him and ask him if he was paying attention or 
>> not.
>> He told me that he was taking notes. I knew he had to be missing much of 
>> the
>> important   conversation that was going on. I immediately  suggested he
>> invest in a hand held recorder. He is 26, and has been blind all his 
>> life.
>> My senior in a way. yet he did not take notes with braille as I later
>> learned he was not expected to know it for some reason. now I learned
>> braille as a sighted individual he learned it as a blind individual, yet
>> neither of us used it to take notes quietly and unobtrusively which is
>> always possible with a slate and stylus. I will most certainly be trying 
>> to
>> walk the walk and talk the talk and use my slate more then my handheld. 
>> Very
>> sobering  and eye opening thread.
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of H. Field
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:42 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>> Dear Richard,
>> The young child has no difficulty with the mirror image concept of
>> braille because he/she doesn't have one. The reason is simple. If a
>> child, is taught that "l" is dot one, two, three,then, wherever the
>> child is told he/she will find dot one, two, three, there they will
>> push the stylus. In over 30 years of teaching young blind children to
>> write braille using a slate and stylus, I have never had a child who
>> experiences difficulty with reversing things. I myself was first
>> taught braille as a five-year-old using a slate and stylus. I was not
>> given a braille writer until third grade. I can vividly remember
>> learning to write with both devises and reversals was never an issue.
>> If a child clearly knows the dots required for each letter then all
>> they need is to be told where to press each dot, given some practice
>> and feedback and reversals are a complete non-issue. I would strongly
>> encourage you to work with your daughter on developing at least basic
>> competence with the slate and stylus.
>>
>> This idea that writing on a slate is fraught with the problem of
>> reversals is, in my experience, a problem suffered by sighted learners
>> who are used to picturing things in their heads. Indeed, this very
>> fact is a major reason why adult teachers don't want to teach the
>> slate. They think the child will have the same problems with reversals
>> that they do. But, as usual, it is plain stupid reasoning when one
>> makes the jump from "I as an adult have trouble with braille and the
>> slate and stylus" to "so I won't ever teach it to a blind child." I
>> have met one extremely competent blind person, a braille user, who
>> doesn't like the slate. Guess why? She lost her vision around age ten
>> and her sighted braille teacher said that to write on the slate she
>> would need to reverse everything in her head. What an impossible and
>> totally unnecessary task. Of course no one could achieve any speed or
>> accuracy using that method, and, after such torture, would not have
>> any fondness for the slate and stylus.
>>
>> But, even if a young blind child did experience some initial trouble
>> with reversals when writing on the slate, does this mean that the
>> child should be deprived of the nonvisual equivalent of a pen or
>> pencil? Just because some young print writers sometimes write "b" and
>> "d" or "q" and "p" the wrong way, do early childhood teachers across
>> the nation abandon the use of pencil and paper for young sighted
>> children? Of course not and no one would be so irresponsible as to
>> suggest that we do so. Yet, this is largely what has happened
>> regarding the slate and stylus. The decline in slate usage was aided
>> by the rise of the "print at any cost" philosophy among sighted
>> teachers of children with low vision. Though many of these children
>> were Functionally Blind, they were told to use what sight they had.
>> completely nonfunctional strategies, such as the following, were, and
>> still are, taught to children with low vision. "well, you can use
>> print because, provided you have the right lighting, a very specific
>> kind of very dark ink pen, the correct dark line paper, can write
>> slowly and are not having trouble with eye-strain today, you're a
>> print reader. You don't need braille and certainly don't need a slate
>> and stylus to take notes." The fact that many of these students never
>> manage to write fast enough and rarely experience the perfect
>> conditions required to enable them to cmpete on equal terms with their
>> sighted peers/colleagues, does not appear to be a concern to the
>> teachers taking this stand. Somehow, in some strange, deep part of the
>> human psyche, having the student act sighted and using print, even
>> when they can't read what they write, when the student is complaining
>> of eye-strain and head-aches and print is not working for a student,
>> seems to be preferable to calling a child blind and giving them
>> totally competitive tools, like a slate and stylus and braille. Sadly,
>> because of the misconceptions about blindness, many parents would
>> rather have a print using pretend sighted child than a real, braille
>> using blind child as well.
>>
>> Why have I gone onto my antiprint rant you may ask? Because I believe
>> that there are psychological reasons, such as seeing the slate as
>> old-fashioned and low tech, too hard, too slow, too blind, and too
>> hard to teach, that influence teachers who don't or won't teach it to
>> today's blind children. There's no real data on slate usage among
>> those who are profficient users. I've never seen a survey seeking real
>> data on the value, or nonvalue, of slate and stylus to blind people.
>> Yet, somehow the decision that slate skills are no longer necessary
>> has been made.
>> This is sheer foolishness, the kind of logic that says because we can
>> now drive cars we don't need bicycles, or because we have replaced the
>> outdoor Main Street shopping experience with indoor shopping malls, we
>> don't need umbrellas.
>>
>> I cannot imagine the innumerable inconveniences I would experience
>> without recourse to my slate. I Write shopping lists on the bus, I
>> take notes quietly in meetings, I jot down phone numbers and addresses
>> of new contacts, I write or retrieve information in extremely noisy
>> environments with ease, I have quickly made notes for an impromptu
>> meeting, written down doses and instructions at the doctor's, copied
>> out a recipe I found in a magazine in the dentist's waiting-room,
>> noted the name and number of taxi drivers whom I wished to report for
>> good or bad reasons, written down info a bus or train clerk gave me on
>> my next connection, and who knows what I may still use it to write.
>> The
>> possibilities are endless... rather like the excuses that people give
>> why young children should be denied the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity
>> to learn to be competent slate users.
>>
>> As for technology for a young child, it depends on many factors but
>> should include games and teaching/learning devices that offer the same
>> exposure to the concept of what techology is and does that sighted
>> children are given. The child's preferences, parents' preferences and
>> the available budget as well as the co-operation of local educators
>> are all factors that will influcnce choices.
>>
>> Warmest regards,
>>
>> Heather Field
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
>>
>>
>> Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
>> bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
>> the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
>> ready for the whole mirror image concept.
>>
>> A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
>> know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
>> braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
>> almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
>> Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
>> writing emerges with a sighted child-- not all letters at once and at
>> first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
>> child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
>> just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
>> important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
>> form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
>> and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
>> Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
>> at home for free once the child is in school.
>>
>> I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
>> the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
>> them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
>> fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
>> what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
>> these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
>> solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
>> and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
>> thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
>>
>> Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
>> uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
>> computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
>> and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
>> for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
>> of technology in use by an early age.
>>
>> It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
>> possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
>> child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
>> braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
>> stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
>> table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
>> child to ask questions-- just like a sighted child-- "what is this"
>> and later "what do these letters say?-- what do they mean?" Also, use
>> twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
>> most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
>> when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
>> the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
>> exploring the braille.
>>
>> Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
>> Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
>> careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
>> or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
>> mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
>> all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
>>
>> I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
>> overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
>> her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
>> which way she wants to proceed.
>>
>> http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
>>
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
>>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
>>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
>>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
>>> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
>>> with her child?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
>> org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comc
>> ast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>
>
>
> 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Fri Feb 19 20:06:05 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:06:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Australia
In-Reply-To: <90F4C99B9EB347319C526E7315B34DC7@7PYZPJ1>
References: <90F4C99B9EB347319C526E7315B34DC7@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <DE092C9FCD5B44CA9113910238740246@JkTC4D1>

Heather, let it go. We are all in agreement that the slate and stylus is a
good thing for students to learn and use. As they grow as individuals it is
they who will determine what options they choose for their life and what
they don't as parents and educators we must offer all options in spite of
what we as adults have come to prefer. It is all about empowering  our
children to greatness and not trying to be right or convince any one person
about why we prefer to use what we use, just know options in life are what
make life wonderful. That is and was the nature of the inquiry I heard and
supported in this dialogue. Peace.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:28 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] Australia

    Emergency code for Austrilia, 000, for New Zealand, 111

In Australia, snow can fall in the mountains of Victoria, Australian Capital
Territory, New South Wales and Tasmania. There is a regular snow season in
several areas which have seasonal ski tourism industries. Sometimes snow has
even been reported in the mountains of South Australia, Western Australia
and Queensland though this is very rare.

Snow at sea level has been recorded on mainland Australia but has happened
more times in Tasmania, some of the snow at sea level has fallen in the off
season like summer. Snow has fallen nearly everywhere in Tasmania, though it
is rare to fall in the north coast at sea level.

The occasional cold snap, caused by cold air drifting north from Antarctica,
can cause significant snowfall in rural areas, as well as major cities such
as Hobart, Melbourne's outer mountain suburbs, Canberra and Sydney. Such
occasions are rare, but have occurred in 1951, 1986 and 2005. 
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
ot.org




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 19 22:53:19 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:53:19 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] didn't want to clutter up the list,Re:  Australia
References: <90F4C99B9EB347319C526E7315B34DC7@7PYZPJ1>
	<DE092C9FCD5B44CA9113910238740246@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <1FEAA3EDAEA6438AA067143256DBED1A@7PYZPJ1>

    I saw the messages from the moderators.  I am dropping it.  I have so 
many more things worth stressing over in my life.  But I did address two 
blatently wrong statements, in a post with a different subject.  Have 
friends from Austrillia and they would kill me if they found out that I was 
lax about some ignorant statement like that.  How would you feel if someone 
stated that the whole United States had a climate like Virmont, or that we 
have no, insert name of service, that is vital and that we do infact have. 
Ok, sorry for emailing you off-list, but I didn't want to piss off any 
moderators, but I don't know if thisn list has rules about not emailing 
people off-list.  I hope not, or I am screwed.  I am used to more laid back 
lists.  Sorry again.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Australia


> Heather, let it go. We are all in agreement that the slate and stylus is a
> good thing for students to learn and use. As they grow as individuals it 
> is
> they who will determine what options they choose for their life and what
> they don't as parents and educators we must offer all options in spite of
> what we as adults have come to prefer. It is all about empowering  our
> children to greatness and not trying to be right or convince any one 
> person
> about why we prefer to use what we use, just know options in life are what
> make life wonderful. That is and was the nature of the inquiry I heard and
> supported in this dialogue. Peace.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:28 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] Australia
>
>    Emergency code for Austrilia, 000, for New Zealand, 111
>
> In Australia, snow can fall in the mountains of Victoria, Australian 
> Capital
> Territory, New South Wales and Tasmania. There is a regular snow season in
> several areas which have seasonal ski tourism industries. Sometimes snow 
> has
> even been reported in the mountains of South Australia, Western Australia
> and Queensland though this is very rare.
>
> Snow at sea level has been recorded on mainland Australia but has happened
> more times in Tasmania, some of the snow at sea level has fallen in the 
> off
> season like summer. Snow has fallen nearly everywhere in Tasmania, though 
> it
> is rare to fall in the north coast at sea level.
>
> The occasional cold snap, caused by cold air drifting north from 
> Antarctica,
> can cause significant snowfall in rural areas, as well as major cities 
> such
> as Hobart, Melbourne's outer mountain suburbs, Canberra and Sydney. Such
> occasions are rare, but have occurred in 1951, 1986 and 2005.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
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> ot.org
>
>
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> blindkid:
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sat Feb 20 03:19:07 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:19:07 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <5A37B3FBF4624325A288D485CDFD3683@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony><D7DDFD40BB8D45E58B0D7C8929D4FF99@owner1e06aeb63>
	<23AFD37A-0C25-4B6B-8C1C-71BC1750508B@gopbc.org>
	<5A37B3FBF4624325A288D485CDFD3683@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <20100220031907.k7uij@panix.com>

Nope! An L backward would be dots 6, 5, 4. The cell is rotated 180 degrees about the vertical axis.

Fred Schroeder solves this problem by using "first side" and "second side" where these are defined appropriately to produce the correct result on a Perkins keyboard or slate.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\(was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Friday, Feb 19, 2010 5:38:13
Subject: Re: [blkid] Technology and Little Kid

>
>
> The. Cells. Are backwards.  No, they are not backwards in the context of the 
> sentence, because the writing is also reversed, but when making the cells on 
> the slate, they are backwards.  An L is dots 1,2,3 and if you are to think 
> of the dots on the slate as being the ordinary way, and I am not saying that 
> is the correct way to go about it, but if you did, for the sake of 
> arguement, then L would be dots 4,5,6, which is backwards.  So, the cells 
> are forwards in the context of the sentence, but the sentence is backwards, 
> and so the cells are backwards in the context of the child's prior 
> experience and personal context.  If we look at Lev Vidgotski's zone of 
> proximal development, what the child has from early exposure in braille 
> books is contrary to the experience of how to braille on a slate.  Does that 
> mean it should never be taught?  That it can never be mastered or 
> understood?  Of course not, but saying that it is not backwards is a bit 
> confusing and convoluted to a small child.  What I think, from an early 
> childhood educator's perspective, might be helpful is to show the child who 
> understands basic words of at least three letters how writing the braille 
> writer way, left to right and forwards on a slate yields backwards writing, 
> then help them problem solve to find out how to make it look right on the 
> back of the paper.  Let them experement with writing backwards letters left 
> to right, forwards letters right to left, backwards letters right to left, 
> and keep having them compare and contrast until they get the orientation of 
> the paper and the letters.  If you just say "Just do it this way because I 
> say so" they are likely to get angry and frustrated at the difficulty, but 
> if you help them be a part of the proccess and the solution, they are more 
> likely to embrace the new activity.  Imagine if you at four or five were 
> suddenly told "Ok, you are just beginning to master which way letters go and 
> how they look and now I want you to write them one way on this machine and 
> the completely reversed way on this machine."  "Why?"  "Because that makes 
> it look right and I said so, end of story."  I remember in first grade being 
> so frustrated.  I would make a few letters then open the slate, take out the 
> paper and investigate it.  I wanted to try doing it the "right" way to see 
> why that didn't work.  I wanted to have explanations and to play a bit, but 
> I was told to "Put the paper back in and do your work."  For very young 
> children, having to keep their place, with out being able to see the letters 
> being created is also a difficult skill to master when it is first 
> introduced.  Perhaps place holding activities in lines of letters and 
> numbers would be helpful, or practicing writing on a brailler or reading a 
> book and being mindful of their position in a word without having to look 
> back.  Think how upsetting it would be to learn that those cute things that 
> meow are "cats" and you are so proud that you can write cats, but being only 
> four or five, while you are trying to remember how the c and the a sound and 
> look, and how they sound and look together, then add a t into the mix, and 
> while you are trying to think about how the letters look, you are also 
> remembering to write right to left, make sure the letters are correctly 
> oriented for that dirrection, while trying to sound out the word to make 
> sure you don't miss any letters, and then you add in the math of trying to 
> remember which cell you are in because you can't feel what is coming out on 
> the paper?  God, if I were four I would burst into tears over all of that., 
> Let them master phonix first, or basic math first, or just recognizing and 
> producing left to right, forward facing letters first.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] Technology and Little Kid
> 
> 
> >ar This confusion or lack of specificity in precisely stating what the 
> >ar difference between making cells on a braillewriter versus making  them on 
> >ar a slate is, I submit, a great part of the problem. Lack of  precision in 
> >ar thinking leads to lack of precision in results!
> >
> > I  cannot speak for the others in this discussion, but I am not  entirely 
> > convinced that either my or my seven-year-old's "lack of  precision in 
> > thinking" has a great deal to do with her potential to  master the use of 
> > a slate and stylus.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blkid mailing list
> > blindkid at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> > blkid:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From k7uij at panix.com  Sat Feb 20 03:38:33 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:38:33 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Technology and Little Kid
In-Reply-To: <1367331A338D4870B52CCC3F15562AD9@LivingRoom>
References: <auto-000140238087@mailfront1.g2host.com><9F68D363-2628-4809-8142-C97038B71325@gopbc.org><6782AD252425455480B00FF8CA462026@heathersony><5DA8F43793074E069630137ABA736E15@JkTC4D1>
	<C9DBC6131B76435E842C05E28E80929A@7PYZPJ1>
	<1367331A338D4870B52CCC3F15562AD9@LivingRoom>
Message-ID: <20100220033833.k7uij@panix.com>

BRAVO!

Another way to think of this is to remember that if you open a door to go into a room and the doorknob is on the right, when you go out of the room, it's on the left! Simple as that!

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Lucas" <lucas.bonnie at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\(was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Friday, Feb 19, 2010 14:03:33
Subject: Re: [blkid] Technology and Little Kid

>
>
> I am going to make just one comment here. At seven years old, I began first 
> grade which is when I began learning Braille. this was some years ago at the 
> School for the Blind in Berkeley, CA. At that time, I began learning on the 
> Braille writer. Then, one day when I got sick and had to go to the school 
> infirmery, the girl who was my room mate was in third or fourth grade. The 
> nurse brought her a slate and stylus and though I had seen them, I hadn't 
> learned how to use one. I distinctly remember her telling me a little about 
> how  to use the thing and low and behold, because I was determined to do 
> some writing to occupy myself, within the hour I was writing up a blue 
> streek. It was great fun and I used the cool piece of tech through college 
> (dating myself). Here's the deal. When writing with the Braille writer, you 
> have to remember that the 1 is on the left and you write and read from the 
> left. No right involved. When writing with the slate, the 1 is on the right 
> and you write from the right. The only time you do anything from the left is 
> when you turn the paper over and read from the left. At my current age, 
> writing for long periods on the slate hurts my wrist though using the softer 
> paper helps a lot. However, in the past week, I have written things down 
> twice because I carry one in my purse, no matter what else I have with me 
> and believe me, away from home it is never a Perkins, there is always a 
> slate and stylus with me.
> 
> I cannot say that using a slate and stylus would have been the same had I 
> had the option of a BrailleNote and computer. My daughter, Aubrie, 13, knows 
> how to use the S&S but definitely does not use it much compared with her BN 
> and the computer.
> With that, my best suggestion (hope I'm not out-of-line for saying this) I 
> think it's time to find something else to write about.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] Technology and Little Kid
> 
> 
> > Several people have brought up the reversal issue and I think it depends 
> > on the age it is introduced, because for someone who already knows braille 
> > it might literally mean reversing the letters, whereas if a kid learns it 
> > in kindergardin both brailler and slate might become second nature. 
> > Bottom line, as a home educator of my own son I would show him both, and 
> > if he took to the slate like a duck to water, i would encourage him, but 
> > if it frustrated him to the point where he wanted nothing to do with 
> > braille or the perkins, it would be put on hold.  I would like him to be 
> > proficent at both, but I want him to naturally love reading both in 
> > braille and on recorded media, and if pushing a particular skill looked as 
> > if it would harm that natural love of learning, especially learning 
> > literature and braille, I would not allow that to happen.
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> > To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children]" 
> > <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [blkid] Technology and Little Kid
> >
> >
> >arI do not even know where to begin. First wow! these few  threads have 
> >argiven
> >ar me more insight and have shifted my position on things as never before. 
> >ar 1. I
> >ar am sickened by the fact that braille is not introduced to children at as
> >ar early an age as possible. 2. I have learned how mentors can  color 
> >ar choices
> >ar by predetermining  what is or is not best for children and 
> >ar unintentionally
> >ar limit that children's academic growth. 3. I learned braille as a sighted
> >ar person and I too was forced to believe that writing braile with a slate 
> >ar and
> >ar stylus was best learned by inverting  or perverting braille as I now have
> >ar learned. In this one thread I understood and now own why I do not and
> >ar eventually will carry a slate and stylus as I was inverting or reversing 
> >ar the
> >ar image. when I used my perkins brailler I see the dots on the page just as 
> >ar I
> >ar would feel them as I ran my fingers across the page. Now I realize that 
> >ar is
> >ar what keeps me from using a slate. I either use a hand held recorder which
> >ar unnerves others, or as I recently experienced  an intern of mine only 
> >ar uses
> >ar his computer. We were in a meeting and he did nothing but tap tap tap on 
> >ar the
> >ar computer. I had to stop him and ask him if he was paying attention or 
> >ar not.
> >ar He told me that he was taking notes. I knew he had to be missing much of 
> >ar the
> >ar important   conversation that was going on. I immediately  suggested he
> >ar invest in a hand held recorder. He is 26, and has been blind all his 
> >ar life.
> >ar My senior in a way. yet he did not take notes with braille as I later
> >ar learned he was not expected to know it for some reason. now I learned
> >ar braille as a sighted individual he learned it as a blind individual, yet
> >ar neither of us used it to take notes quietly and unobtrusively which is
> >ar always possible with a slate and stylus. I will most certainly be trying 
> >ar to
> >ar walk the walk and talk the talk and use my slate more then my handheld. 
> >ar Very
> >ar sobering  and eye opening thread.
> >ar Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> >ar CEO/Founder
> >ar My Blind Spot, Inc.
> >ar 90 Broad Street ? 18th Fl.
> >ar New York, New York  10004
> >ar www.myblindspot.org
> >ar PH: 917-553-0347
> >ar Fax: 212-858-5759
> >ar "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
> >ar is
> >ar doing it."
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar -----Original Message-----
> >ar From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >ar Behalf Of H. Field
> >ar Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:42 PM
> >ar To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)
> >ar Subject: Re: [blkid] Technology and Little Kid
> >ar
> >ar Dear Richard,
> >ar The young child has no difficulty with the mirror image concept of
> >ar braille because he/she doesn't have one. The reason is simple. If a
> >ar child, is taught that l is dot one, two, threeeathen, wherever the
> >ar child is told he/she will find dot one, two, three, there they will
> >ar push the stylus. In over 30 years of teaching young blind children to
> >ar write braille using a slate and stylus, I have never had a child who
> >ar experiences difficulty with reversing things. I myself was first
> >ar taught braille as a five-year-old using a slate and stylus. I was not
> >ar given a braille writer until third grade. I can vividly remember
> >ar learning to write with both devises and reversals was never an issue.
> >ar If a child clearly knows the dots required for each letter then all
> >ar they need is to be told where to press each dot, given some practice
> >ar and feedback and reversals are a complete non-issue. I would strongly
> >ar encourage you to work with your daughter on developing at least basic
> >ar competence with the slate and stylus.
> >ar
> >ar This idea that writing on a slate is fraught with the problem of
> >ar reversals is, in my experience, a problem suffered by sighted learners
> >ar who are used to picturing things in their heads. Indeed, this very
> >ar fact is a major reason why adult teachers don't want to teach the
> >ar slate. They think the child will have the same problems with reversals
> >ar that they do. But, as usual, it is plain stupid reasoning when one
> >ar makes the jump from "I as an adult have trouble with braille and the
> >ar slate and stylus" to "so I won't ever teach it to a blind child." I
> >ar have met one extremely competent blind person, a braille user, who
> >ar doesn't like the slate. Guess why? She lost her vision around age ten
> >ar and her sighted braille teacher said that to write on the slate she
> >ar would need to reverse everything in her head. What an impossible and
> >ar totally unnecessary task. Of course no one could achieve any speed or
> >ar accuracy using that method, and, after such torture, would not have
> >ar any fondness for the slate and stylus.
> >ar
> >ar But, even if a young blind child did experience some initial trouble
> >ar with reversals when writing on the slate, does this mean that the
> >ar child should be deprived of the nonvisual equivalent of a pen or
> >ar pencil? Just because some young print writers sometimes write b and
> >ar d or q and p the wrong way, do early childhood teachers across
> >ar the nation abandon the use of pencil and paper for young sighted
> >ar children? Of course not and no one would be so irresponsible as to
> >ar suggest that we do so. Yet, this is largely what has happened
> >ar regarding the slate and stylus. The decline in slate usage was aided
> >ar by the rise of the "print at any cost" philosophy among sighted
> >ar teachers of children with low vision. Though many of these children
> >ar were Functionally Blind, they were told to use what sight they had.
> >ar completely nonfunctional strategies, such as the following, were, and
> >ar still are, taught to children with low vision. "well, you can use
> >ar print because, provided you have the right lighting, a very specific
> >ar kind of very dark ink pen, the correct dark line paper, can write
> >ar slowly and are not having trouble with eye-strain today, you're a
> >ar print reader. You don't need braille and certainly don't need a slate
> >ar and stylus to take notes." The fact that many of these students never
> >ar manage to write fast enough and rarely experience the perfect
> >ar conditions required to enable them to cmpete on equal terms with their
> >ar sighted peers/colleagues, does not appear to be a concern to the
> >ar teachers taking this stand. Somehow, in some strange, deep part of the
> >ar human psyche, having the student act sighted and using print, even
> >ar when they can't read what they write, when the student is complaining
> >ar of eye-strain and head-aches and print is not working for a student,
> >ar seems to be preferable to calling a child blind and giving them
> >ar totally competitive tools, like a slate and stylus and braille. Sadly,
> >ar because of the misconceptions about blindness, many parents would
> >ar rather have a print using pretend sighted child than a real, braille
> >ar using blind child as well.
> >ar
> >ar Why have I gone onto my antiprint rant you may ask? Because I believe
> >ar that there are psychological reasons, such as seeing the slate as
> >ar old-fashioned and low tech, too hard, too slow, too blind, and too
> >ar hard to teach, that influence teachers who don't or won't teach it to
> >ar today's blind children. There's no real data on slate usage among
> >ar those who are profficient users. I've never seen a survey seeking real
> >ar data on the value, or nonvalue, of slate and stylus to blind people.
> >ar Yet, somehow the decision that slate skills are no longer necessary
> >ar has been made.
> >ar This is sheer foolishness, the kind of logic that says because we can
> >ar now drive cars we don't need bicycles, or because we have replaced the
> >ar outdoor Main Street shopping experience with indoor shopping malls, we
> >ar don't need umbrellas.
> >ar
> >ar I cannot imagine the innumerable inconveniences I would experience
> >ar without recourse to my slate. I Write shopping lists on the bus, I
> >ar take notes quietly in meetings, I jot down phone numbers and addresses
> >ar of new contacts, I write or retrieve information in extremely noisy
> >ar environments with ease, I have quickly made notes for an impromptu
> >ar meeting, written down doses and instructions at the doctor's, copied
> >ar out a recipe I found in a magazine in the dentist's waiting-room,
> >ar noted the name and number of taxi drivers whom I wished to report for
> >ar good or bad reasons, written down info a bus or train clerk gave me on
> >ar my next connection, and who knows what I may still use it to write.
> >ar The
> >ar possibilities are endless... rather like the excuses that people give
> >ar why young children should be denied the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity
> >ar to learn to be competent slate users.
> >ar
> >ar As for technology for a young child, it depends on many factors but
> >ar should include games and teaching/learning devices that offer the same
> >ar exposure to the concept of what techology is and does that sighted
> >ar children are given. The child's preferences, parents' preferences and
> >ar the available budget as well as the co-operation of local educators
> >ar are all factors that will influcnce choices.
> >ar
> >ar Warmest regards,
> >ar
> >ar Heather Field
> >ar ----- Original Message ----- 
> >ar From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> >ar To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)"
> >ar <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> >ar Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:42 PM
> >ar Subject: Re: [blkid] Technology and Little Kid
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar Certainly the slate and stylus (as someone else mentioned) is not a
> >ar bad idea, but a child in this age range is probably not going to have
> >ar the fine motor control to master the tool's use easily or likely be
> >ar ready for the whole mirror image concept.
> >ar
> >ar A child of nearly any age can begin using a Perkins Braillewriter-- I
> >ar know we were using one by at least age three. At the very least a
> >ar braille novice can "scribble" on a braillewriter, just like my sighted
> >ar almost-4-year-old scribbles on paper with a crayon all the time.
> >ar Braillewriting skill with a young child emerges at least somewhat like
> >ar writing emerges with a sighted ch-- not all letters at once and at
> >ar first, just like penmanship is typically pretty poor-- this after the
> >ar child has first just pressed the keys at random-- indeed "scribbling"
> >ar just like sighted kids. Getting the feel of the tools to use is an
> >ar important first step. It is hard for small hands to properly press and
> >ar form braille mechanically with a Perkins, but you are building hand
> >ar and finger strength and forming braille concepts all along the way.
> >ar Many schools can provide a second braillewriter for the student to use
> >ar at home for free once the child is in school.
> >ar
> >ar I think that often the way to go is to immerse the child within all
> >ar the options that can be gotten as the child appears ready to take to
> >ar them-- at least that was our theory when our daughter was born, and in
> >ar fact, it continues to be the same way to this day, then we focus on
> >ar what she seems ready to take to-- she'll ultimately use most all of
> >ar these things. There is also an entire range of tactile graphics
> >ar solutions and manipulatives. You can produce these with pipe cleaners,
> >ar and a bottle of glue, or you can use a multi-thousand dollar
> >ar thermoform; quite a range of options exists.
> >ar
> >ar Now at age 7, Kendra uses a BrailleNote and PAC Mate daily but still
> >ar uses a Perkins often, as well as an abacus for her math, JAWS on her
> >ar computer and so forth. She also works well with refreshable braille
> >ar and that can be a really handy option. The next big challenge I see
> >ar for her is needing to learn a qwerty keyboard, so there can be a lot
> >ar of technology in use by an early age.
> >ar
> >ar It is also really important to expose the child to braille as much as
> >ar possible. A sighted child sees print everywhere. Make certain this
> >ar child runs across braille often. Now in first grade and a proficient
> >ar braille reader, our first grade daughter still runs across the braille
> >ar stickers on things all over the house-- refrigerator, dishwasher,
> >ar table, drawer, oven, door, bed-- you name it. This will cause the
> >ar child to ask questions-- just like a sighted ch-- "what is this"
> >ar and later "what do these letters say"-- what do they mean?" Also, use
> >ar twin vision books-- sighted kids look at letters while parents read
> >ar most every time. Blind kids can do the same-- that's why it is best
> >ar when adding braille to a print book to always put the braille below
> >ar the print-- a sighted reader can still read while small hands are
> >ar exploring the braille.
> >ar
> >ar Screen readers can be used at that age as well as a victor reader.
> >ar Things like Mt Battens are expensive but potentially useful, but be
> >ar careful that an electronic (and expensive) solution like a Mt. Batten
> >ar or a PAC Mate is not learned at the expense of being able to use a
> >ar mechanical braillewriter as that need will almost certainly come up
> >ar all of this child's life, at least from time to time.
> >ar
> >ar I'd like to rework this link, and our site is about to get a facelift
> >ar overall too but here are some technology ideas that you might direct
> >ar her towards. Let her see a range of options and then she can decide
> >ar which way she wants to proceed.
> >ar
> >ar http://www.gopbc.org/gopbc_technology.htm
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar Richard
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:01 PM, David Andrews wrote:
> >ar
> >>> I got asked a question, the other day, and since most of my
> >>> experience is with blind adults -- I didn't know quite what to say.
> >>> A woman said she had a four year old totally blind daughter, and she
> >>> wanted her to keep up with her peers in technology, so what
> >>> assistive technology/technology is there  -- should she start using
> >>> with her child?
> >>>
> >>> Dave
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> blkid mailing list
> >>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>> for blkid:
> >>>
> >ar http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
> >ar org
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar _______________________________________________
> >ar blkid mailing list
> >ar blindkid at nfbnet.org
> >ar http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> >ar To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >ar blkid:
> >ar http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comc
> >ar ast.net
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar _______________________________________________
> >ar blkid mailing list
> >ar blindkid at nfbnet.org
> >ar http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> >ar To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >ar blkid:
> >ar http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> >ar ot.org
> >ar
> >ar
> >ar _______________________________________________
> >ar blkid mailing list
> >ar blindkid at nfbnet.org
> >ar http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> >ar To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> >ar blkid:
> >ar http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org  Sat Feb 20 14:00:05 2010
From: sueharper at firstchurchgriswold.org (Susan Harper)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 09:00:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] didn't want to clutter up the list,Re: Australia
In-Reply-To: <1FEAA3EDAEA6438AA067143256DBED1A@7PYZPJ1>
References: <90F4C99B9EB347319C526E7315B34DC7@7PYZPJ1>
	<DE092C9FCD5B44CA9113910238740246@JkTC4D1>
	<1FEAA3EDAEA6438AA067143256DBED1A@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <f6a56b5c1002200600r27e99d78s12d3ab642601eaa1@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, I was gaining a lot of insight from the different points of view.
No disagreement and discussion, no learning, no compromise, no tolerance!
Blessings,
Sue H.

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>   I saw the messages from the moderators.  I am dropping it.  I have so
> many more things worth stressing over in my life.  But I did address two
> blatently wrong statements, in a post with a different subject.  Have
> friends from Austrillia and they would kill me if they found out that I was
> lax about some ignorant statement like that.  How would you feel if someone
> stated that the whole United States had a climate like Virmont, or that we
> have no, insert name of service, that is vital and that we do infact have.
> Ok, sorry for emailing you off-list, but I didn't want to piss off any
> moderators, but I don't know if thisn list has rules about not emailing
> people off-list.  I hope not, or I am screwed.  I am used to more laid back
> lists.  Sorry again.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert J Rizzi" <
> albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" <
> blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 3:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Australia
>
>
> Heather, let it go. We are all in agreement that the slate and stylus is a
>> good thing for students to learn and use. As they grow as individuals it
>> is
>> they who will determine what options they choose for their life and what
>> they don't as parents and educators we must offer all options in spite of
>> what we as adults have come to prefer. It is all about empowering  our
>> children to greatness and not trying to be right or convince any one
>> person
>> about why we prefer to use what we use, just know options in life are what
>> make life wonderful. That is and was the nature of the inquiry I heard and
>> supported in this dialogue. Peace.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Heather
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:28 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: [blindkid] Australia
>>
>>   Emergency code for Austrilia, 000, for New Zealand, 111
>>
>> In Australia, snow can fall in the mountains of Victoria, Australian
>> Capital
>> Territory, New South Wales and Tasmania. There is a regular snow season in
>> several areas which have seasonal ski tourism industries. Sometimes snow
>> has
>> even been reported in the mountains of South Australia, Western Australia
>> and Queensland though this is very rare.
>>
>> Snow at sea level has been recorded on mainland Australia but has happened
>> more times in Tasmania, some of the snow at sea level has fallen in the
>> off
>> season like summer. Snow has fallen nearly everywhere in Tasmania, though
>> it
>> is rare to fall in the north coast at sea level.
>>
>> The occasional cold snap, caused by cold air drifting north from
>> Antarctica,
>> can cause significant snowfall in rural areas, as well as major cities
>> such
>> as Hobart, Melbourne's outer mountain suburbs, Canberra and Sydney. Such
>> occasions are rare, but have occurred in 1951, 1986 and 2005.
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sueharper%40firstchurchgriswold.org
>


From missheather at comcast.net  Sat Feb 20 17:50:30 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:50:30 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Australia and life context skills
References: <90F4C99B9EB347319C526E7315B34DC7@7PYZPJ1><DE092C9FCD5B44CA9113910238740246@JkTC4D1>
	<1FEAA3EDAEA6438AA067143256DBED1A@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <E871D483C3D047CA9B3D3DBBD1CD3FD0@heathersony>

Dear Heather,
As you and I were also addressing larger educational issues that are 
often affected by teacher bias, and are topics that many parents of 
blind children need to think through and have views on, I don't think 
that the moderators would mind a couple of final posts. I am actually 
Australian myself, currently living in America, so I'm very aware of 
the snow that can fall in parts of Australia. However, in my post I 
said that if a child lived in, northern, Australia. The far north of 
Australia is above the tropic of Capricorn and doesn't ever get snow. 
A dusting may have fallen at times in Queensland, where I'm from, but 
this doesn't help validate an assertion that knowing how to button an 
over-coat might be a higher priority than good spelling. This is 
because none of the stores in Northern Australia would have an 
over-coat in stock, because they're never needed up in the tropics. 
Even through some freak of nature should a dusting of snow fall and 
stick long enough to be identified as snow, a child wouldn't be able 
to use his carefully learned over-coat buttoning skills. So, the 
contextual framework of his life would still determine his skill 
learning priorities, not very occasional weather events.

As for the 911 example, i had meant to change my first draft  by 
inserting, "parts of Africa" to give the post diversity. In my rush I 
forgot to do it. Thank you so much for pointing out that of course, a 
modern country like Australia,  has an emergency response service. 
Having clarified those points I would still encourage you to consider 
the concept of life context as a determining factor. I would also like 
to encourage parents to give less weight their young child's 
preferences when making choices about what skills they insist their 
child learn. In numerous posts on the topic of tools that a child 
needs, parents said something like "if my child likes it," or, "if my 
child really likes it." This is rarely a criterion used by parents of 
sighted children when deciding which life skills their child needs to 
learn. Usually, if parents of sighted children decide that a 
particular skill or set of skills is important - such as learning a 
musical instrument or learning basic cooking - then the children are 
expected to do it, whether they particularly like it or not. I would 
encourage parents of blind children to take the same approach.

Warmest regards,

Heather Field

------ Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 4:53 PM
Subject: [blindkid] didn't want to clutter up the list,Re: Australia


    I saw the messages from the moderators.  I am dropping it.  I have 
so
many more things worth stressing over in my life.  But I did address 
two
blatently wrong statements, in a post with a different subject.  Have
friends from Austrillia and they would kill me if they found out that 
I was
lax about some ignorant statement like that.  How would you feel if 
someone
stated that the whole United States had a climate like Virmont, or 
that we
have no, insert name of service, that is vital and that we do infact 
have.
Ok, sorry for emailing you off-list, but I didn't want to piss off any
moderators, but I don't know if thisn list has rules about not 
emailing
people off-list.  I hope not, or I am screwed.  I am used to more laid 
back
lists.  Sorry again.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Australia


> Heather, let it go. We are all in agreement that the slate and 
> stylus is a
> good thing for students to learn and use. As they grow as 
> individuals it
> is
> they who will determine what options they choose for their life and 
> what
> they don't as parents and educators we must offer all options in 
> spite of
> what we as adults have come to prefer. It is all about empowering 
> our
> children to greatness and not trying to be right or convince any one
> person
> about why we prefer to use what we use, just know options in life 
> are what
> make life wonderful. That is and was the nature of the inquiry I 
> heard and
> supported in this dialogue. Peace.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one 
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:28 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] Australia
>
>    Emergency code for Austrilia, 000, for New Zealand, 111
>
> In Australia, snow can fall in the mountains of Victoria, Australian
> Capital
> Territory, New South Wales and Tasmania. There is a regular snow 
> season in
> several areas which have seasonal ski tourism industries. Sometimes 
> snow
> has
> even been reported in the mountains of South Australia, Western 
> Australia
> and Queensland though this is very rare.
>
> Snow at sea level has been recorded on mainland Australia but has 
> happened
> more times in Tasmania, some of the snow at sea level has fallen in 
> the
> off
> season like summer. Snow has fallen nearly everywhere in Tasmania, 
> though
> it
> is rare to fall in the north coast at sea level.
>
> The occasional cold snap, caused by cold air drifting north from
> Antarctica,
> can cause significant snowfall in rural areas, as well as major 
> cities
> such
> as Hobart, Melbourne's outer mountain suburbs, Canberra and Sydney. 
> Such
> occasions are rare, but have occurred in 1951, 1986 and 2005.
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 





From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Sat Feb 20 20:23:38 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:23:38 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Home-schooling/unschooling, attachment parenting,
	Re:  Australia and life context skills
References: <90F4C99B9EB347319C526E7315B34DC7@7PYZPJ1><DE092C9FCD5B44CA9113910238740246@JkTC4D1><1FEAA3EDAEA6438AA067143256DBED1A@7PYZPJ1>
	<E871D483C3D047CA9B3D3DBBD1CD3FD0@heathersony>
Message-ID: <7F0DC9E129924712931421717EFEA172@7PYZPJ1>

Ah, well, we all have drafts that come back to bite us in the butt, self 
included.  It's no biggy.  I was just getting really frustrated with some 
people asserting that I was entirely against something, black and white, 
with no room for my true opinion which is quite in the grey, and so I was 
primed to nit pick.  Sorry about that.  Well, the mods seemed pretty 
annoyed, but since you are of the mind that they won't mind us continuing 
this, with a different slant and in an entirely different dirrection, and 
since you were addressing me and my post spacifically in your own post I 
will write back, although, I am now being moderated, and so, I don't know if 
this will go through.  Depends on how close they see this as being to the 
old "slate and styalis" thread I guess.

On an entirely different note then, and in response to what you just wrote. 
I think one of the things that we disagree on has nothing to do with 
technology or blindness, but rather a difference in our teaching styles.  I 
am a homeschooling parent, also an attachment parent, and I believe in many 
principals of the Reggio Ammilia school the Montessori school and the 
Waldorf school.  Not each entirely, but there are several concepts from each 
that resound with me, such as student led learning, developmentally 
appropriate practice, the importance of unstructured play, etc.  But then 
again, I am also an attachment parent who believes in many non-normative 
things such as the family bed, potty learning, not potty training, infant 
led weening and never ever the cry-out or controled crying method for 
infants, although toddler tantrums are of course different.  I also like and 
follow some ideals of unschooling, although, as an educator I realize that 
complete, and idealistic unschooling is simply not practical if children are 
going to be brought up to function and thrive in our society.  So, Yes, I 
would let a blind child lead the way on many things, but I would also do so 
with a sighted child.  For me, potty learning, proper skills in feeding and 
dressing themself, basic safety rule compliance and learning how to express 
and control one's emotions are required, other things are flexable. 
Flexable, but not optional.  My child must learn print, cursive is optional, 
my child must learn Braille, Perkins is required, slate is optional.  My 
child must learn a sport, an instrument and another performance art form, 
but which sport, instrument and performance art they choose is entirely up 
to them.  They must learn how to do all basic household chores, but 
whichever chores they enjoy best and have the highest aptitude for will 
become their primary household responsibility.  That sort of thing.  I 
intend to hold my blind child to the same standards of any sighted child. 
No less, they are perfectly capable, with adaptation, and no more, I will 
not be a parent who pushes their child to become super bllind kid.  lol  I 
am sure everyone on this list is not at all like that, but I have met 
parents who are.  I think that honestly we all want roughly the same things 
educationally for our kids, but our priorities are certainly different. 
another example.  I will expect my boys to know how to change a flat tire 
and make things with power tools, but I will expect that of my girls too.  I 
will expect my girls to know how to take care of animals and children, how 
to cook and clean, but I will expect that of my boys too.

Wrapping up, I understand what you mean about context.  I know all about 
things like historical context to socio-cultural context, I.E. Vigotski. 
And, sub Africa for Austrilia, I completely agree that learning to dial an 
emergency number, when the village might not even have a phone is beyond 
ridiculous.  I think that context in America is slightly less variable, 
because of such things as state teaching standards, and a relatively 
homoginized society, but I agree that context absolutely plays a role.  I 
only mentioned the whole 911 thing in the first place, because as an 
attachment parent, I feel that socio-emotional and psycho-social development 
and basic safety should come before structured accademics for a four year 
old, but of course some feel differently, and I feel differently, when it 
comes to older aged children.  Finally, something I and some of the mamas in 
my clloth-diapering and babywearing moms' group was how accurate or not 
Maslow's higherarchey of needs is and how that relates to the parenting and 
teaching of young children.  One mama shared that she blocks out a rough 
schedule on a sheet of paper in quarter hour intervals.  She fills in the 
most important things, sleep, food bathing/hygene and elimination 
opertunities, then she blocks in basic emotional and social needs like story 
time, group play time, snuggle time with parents, for her kids, a daily 
massage, etc, then she puts in accademic things like structured block play, 
beginning math games, structured phonix exploration, etc.  If there isn't 
enough time for the accademics she thinks about how to incorperate them into 
the other areas of her kid's lives, and if she does take away some time from 
the physical and emotional needs, she never takes more than half of the time 
from each of those activities.  I hope that ramble makes sense.  Have a nice 
afternoon.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
To: <blindkid at NFBnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:50 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Australia and life context skills


> Dear Heather,
> As you and I were also addressing larger educational issues that are
> often affected by teacher bias, and are topics that many parents of
> blind children need to think through and have views on, I don't think
> that the moderators would mind a couple of final posts. I am actually
> Australian myself, currently living in America, so I'm very aware of
> the snow that can fall in parts of Australia. However, in my post I
> said that if a child lived in, northern, Australia. The far north of
> Australia is above the tropic of Capricorn and doesn't ever get snow.
> A dusting may have fallen at times in Queensland, where I'm from, but
> this doesn't help validate an assertion that knowing how to button an
> over-coat might be a higher priority than good spelling. This is
> because none of the stores in Northern Australia would have an
> over-coat in stock, because they're never needed up in the tropics.
> Even through some freak of nature should a dusting of snow fall and
> stick long enough to be identified as snow, a child wouldn't be able
> to use his carefully learned over-coat buttoning skills. So, the
> contextual framework of his life would still determine his skill
> learning priorities, not very occasional weather events.
>
> As for the 911 example, i had meant to change my first draft  by
> inserting, "parts of Africa" to give the post diversity. In my rush I
> forgot to do it. Thank you so much for pointing out that of course, a
> modern country like Australia,  has an emergency response service.
> Having clarified those points I would still encourage you to consider
> the concept of life context as a determining factor. I would also like
> to encourage parents to give less weight their young child's
> preferences when making choices about what skills they insist their
> child learn. In numerous posts on the topic of tools that a child
> needs, parents said something like "if my child likes it," or, "if my
> child really likes it." This is rarely a criterion used by parents of
> sighted children when deciding which life skills their child needs to
> learn. Usually, if parents of sighted children decide that a
> particular skill or set of skills is important - such as learning a
> musical instrument or learning basic cooking - then the children are
> expected to do it, whether they particularly like it or not. I would
> encourage parents of blind children to take the same approach.
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Heather Field
>
> ------ Original Message ----- 
> From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 4:53 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] didn't want to clutter up the list,Re: Australia
>
>
>    I saw the messages from the moderators.  I am dropping it.  I have
> so
> many more things worth stressing over in my life.  But I did address
> two
> blatently wrong statements, in a post with a different subject.  Have
> friends from Austrillia and they would kill me if they found out that
> I was
> lax about some ignorant statement like that.  How would you feel if
> someone
> stated that the whole United States had a climate like Virmont, or
> that we
> have no, insert name of service, that is vital and that we do infact
> have.
> Ok, sorry for emailing you off-list, but I didn't want to piss off any
> moderators, but I don't know if thisn list has rules about not
> emailing
> people off-list.  I hope not, or I am screwed.  I am used to more laid
> back
> lists.  Sorry again.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 3:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Australia
>
>
>> Heather, let it go. We are all in agreement that the slate and
>> stylus is a
>> good thing for students to learn and use. As they grow as
>> individuals it
>> is
>> they who will determine what options they choose for their life and
>> what
>> they don't as parents and educators we must offer all options in
>> spite of
>> what we as adults have come to prefer. It is all about empowering
>> our
>> children to greatness and not trying to be right or convince any one
>> person
>> about why we prefer to use what we use, just know options in life
>> are what
>> make life wonderful. That is and was the nature of the inquiry I
>> heard and
>> supported in this dialogue. Peace.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>> who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Heather
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:28 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: [blindkid] Australia
>>
>>    Emergency code for Austrilia, 000, for New Zealand, 111
>>
>> In Australia, snow can fall in the mountains of Victoria, Australian
>> Capital
>> Territory, New South Wales and Tasmania. There is a regular snow
>> season in
>> several areas which have seasonal ski tourism industries. Sometimes
>> snow
>> has
>> even been reported in the mountains of South Australia, Western
>> Australia
>> and Queensland though this is very rare.
>>
>> Snow at sea level has been recorded on mainland Australia but has
>> happened
>> more times in Tasmania, some of the snow at sea level has fallen in
>> the
>> off
>> season like summer. Snow has fallen nearly everywhere in Tasmania,
>> though
>> it
>> is rare to fall in the north coast at sea level.
>>
>> The occasional cold snap, caused by cold air drifting north from
>> Antarctica,
>> can cause significant snowfall in rural areas, as well as major
>> cities
>> such
>> as Hobart, Melbourne's outer mountain suburbs, Canberra and Sydney.
>> Such
>> occasions are rare, but have occurred in 1951, 1986 and 2005.
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From missheather at comcast.net  Sat Feb 20 22:11:36 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:11:36 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] URGENT $12650 grant, girl, orphan, blind,
	3/9 adoption deadline, Asia
Message-ID: <DEA9CAF00DC64F0D894BFCD55AB02EF0@heathersony>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: adoptanorphan 
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 6:16 PM


  
URGENT
Extreme Emergency Adoption 

Girl from Asia, Blind, Aging Out March 9, 2010
Agency Fees waived* up to $12,650 financial aid available

Requirements:
Do you already have a dossier and an approved I-600 (not I-800) logged-in - including singles. Are you approved to adopt two children? Are you approved to adopt an older child with special needs? Do you have a cooperative USCIS office? If so, please contact us immediately regarding this girl. 
She must be adopted by March 9. This child's adoptive family must have a dossier already logged in with China, with an I-600 approval, in order to complete her adoption before she turns 14.

Description:
YTY. Girl. Despite her small size, she is 13. She has been able to make the most of the opportunities offered in the boarding school for the blind which she attends. She has learned Braille, enjoys studying language and makes good grades. However, a family who can offer her love and attention as well as a full spectrum of resources for the sight impaired, will help her blossom. She has some vision in her left eye; she does not have a right eye and she has a heart issue (involving bicuspid II SM). When she turns 14 she will no longer be able to be adopted domestically or internationally. Agency adoption fees are waived for eligible families* for this adoption. PLEASE ask about possible additional assistance. 

Contact:
Please contact a Family Finders Case Manager for more information.
WACAP (www.wacap.org) is a non-profit adoption agency. Please email us at FamilyFinders at wacap.org 1-800-732-1887 or 206-575-4550

Financial Aid:
Waived means there is no fee.
Application Fee $250=WAIVED
Pre-approval fee=$500=WAIVED
WACAP agency Fee Part 1= $3000 =WAIVED
WACAP Intl Proc Fee part 1=$700 =WAIVED
WACAP agency Fee part 2=$1000 WAIVED
WACAP Int'l processing fee Part 2=$700 WAIVED
WACAP Intl processing fee Part 3=$1500=WAIVED
Required Donation =approx $5000 = Please inquire about financial aid for this donation

Families will be responsible for:
Homestudy fee- $1550-$1850
Dossier processing Fee $500
Document expenses-$400-$700
Transmittal fee=$100
Country Fee=$630
Immigration fee-$830
Visa=$400
Legal expenses $1100
Post placement -$600
Finalization $500-$1500
Travel= $3350 per person approximately
Please ask about additional private grants and loans for adoption.



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From beckym1027 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 20:33:56 2010
From: beckym1027 at gmail.com (Becky Mondor)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:33:56 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
Message-ID: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling  
league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth  
because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout  
the match.  However,  this is where my knowledge begins and ends!   I  
was wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give  
me some helpful tips for his coach?  I am excited he wants to do  
this,  it will be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  
a team sport.  I just want to make it as successful as possible!   
Thanks!

Becky in Indiana

Sent from my iPod



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 21 20:47:13 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:47:13 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
References: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AEC071A0C974B36943466BAD2BC8D86@D3DTZP41>

Hello Becky:

     It has been a long time since I wrestled. If I recall correctly, the 
rules are that if a blind person is wrestling, that contact cannot be broken 
during the match. The other thing is that someone will need to show your son 
the various moves. He may have to feel someone in the various positions. If 
someone gives a good verbal description of what is needed he ought to be 
able to follow the instructions. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Becky Mondor" <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:33 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling


> Hi everyone,
>
> My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling 
> league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth 
> because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout  the 
> match.  However,  this is where my knowledge begins and ends!   I  was 
> wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give  me some 
> helpful tips for his coach?  I am excited he wants to do  this,  it will 
> be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  a team sport.  I 
> just want to make it as successful as possible!   Thanks!
>
> Becky in Indiana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Sun Feb 21 21:38:12 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:38:12 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
In-Reply-To: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
References: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AD808E803124DC2B73115A1659AEDD7@JkTC4D1>

I did a google search and found this article amongst others.

Bucks County Courier Times
Kyle Mieczkowski doesn't let his disability interfere with his ability on
the mat. 

The 122-pound eighth-grade wrestler, modest in stature but massive in heart,
controls his opponent like he could do it in his sleep. 

It's dark in Kyle Mieczkowski's world, but wrestling flipped the switch and
gave him a bright new outlook. 

He's dominant in this match for Robert K. Shafer Middle School in Bensalem.
His hands, arms and legs are a blur of decisive action. His body acts like a
fast-closing vise, sustaining leverage, twisting and turning in an array of
technical moves, keeping the other guy a move behind below him on the mat. 

When the match started, Shafer head coach Don Woodling guided Kyle by hand
to the center of the mat. Otherwise, you wouldn't have known he's blind. You
would have seen only desire, strength, aggressiveness and quickness. 

If you knew about his disability, you would be struck by his seemingly
sixth-sense feel for his opponent and amazed by his rapid-fire recall and
execution of the right move at the right time. 

"He senses his next move as soon as he feels the way the guy lands," said
assistant coach Ryan Thayer. "Like we sense with our eyes, he senses with
his feel." 

Kyle won the match against his Richboro foe, 16-0. Teammates backslapped him
and the Shafer section shouted his name. In his first year of competitive
wrestling, he finished 6-2, with four pins. 

"If you didn't know he was blind, you wouldn't even be able to tell," Thayer
said. 

"He's very tactile. He can feel it," says Shafer athletic director Steven
Lafferty. "It's amazing." 

"He's a great kid. I couldn't say enough," says Kyle's father, Keith
Mieczkowski Sr. "It's amazing. He's got a good heart. A lot of stuff's
instilled in him. My hat's off to him. 

"If I think I'm having a bad day," Keith said, "I just look at him." 

? 

To call Kyle an inspiration to fellow students and even adults is an
understatement. But when asked, the 15-year-old modestly shrugs and says the
message is, "Do your best and don't just think because you're blind you
can't do it." 

To watch Kyle wrestle is to see an uncommon determination, a persistent
drive toward achievement. In the challenging context of his disability,
wrestling seems to give him a comforting feeling of normalcy - of being able
to do things that other kids can do. 

That mindset began developing in childhood, because - from the beginning -
life has never been normal for him. 

As an infant, Kyle had a lung disease. The treatment required high doses of
steroids and oxygen until he was about 6, his dad said. Within a year of
being taken off the steroids and oxygen, Kyle went blind. There's never been
a clear reason why, he and his dad said. 

"One day it was all blurry," Kyle said, "and then (my vision) went down,
down, down." 

The youngster saw specialists and had surgeries, but nothing worked. Both
retinas remain detached and Kyle remains blind. 

"I just learned to adapt to it," Kyle said, "and not let it hold me back
from doing things I wanted to do." 

"Thank God he was young and he adapted to learn, the Braille and all of
that," Keith said. "You go through something like that, it hits you, but you
know, they say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."


http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/16/2009/february/22/bli
nd-wrestler-puts-focus-on-strengths.html

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Becky Mondor
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:34 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling

Hi everyone,

My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling  
league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth  
because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout  
the match.  However,  this is where my knowledge begins and ends!   I  
was wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give  
me some helpful tips for his coach?  I am excited he wants to do  
this,  it will be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  
a team sport.  I just want to make it as successful as possible!   
Thanks!

Becky in Indiana

Sent from my iPod

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
ot.org




From seacknit at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 22:55:46 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:55:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
In-Reply-To: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
References: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A8875FD9B7848E9BAC1AEC0B06D315D@OwnerPC>

Wrestling is a sport that is part of the US Association of Blind Athletes. 
The website doesn't have much information but there is a contact email: 
jpotts at usaba.org <jpotts at usaba.org>

Please let us know how it works out!  I've always thought my son would enjoy 
wrestling.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Becky Mondor" <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:33 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling


> Hi everyone,
>
> My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling 
> league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth 
> because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout  the 
> match.  However,  this is where my knowledge begins and ends!   I  was 
> wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give  me some 
> helpful tips for his coach?  I am excited he wants to do  this,  it will 
> be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  a team sport.  I 
> just want to make it as successful as possible!   Thanks!
>
> Becky in Indiana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com 




From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Feb 21 22:58:13 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:58:13 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
References: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
	<4AEC071A0C974B36943466BAD2BC8D86@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <004801cab349$596646e0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good afternoon everyone,

        Robert you're causing me to recall memories of school days. 
Greco-Roman Wrestling was, and I believe still is a very popular sport among 
schools for the blind around the country. We used to have several 
interscholastic tournaments among the schools for the blind in the 
Northeastern United States. In addition each school wrestled various high 
school teams in their area. This is one sport blind and sighted students can 
compete in on an equal basis.

    I won't add anything more than what Robert all ready said concerning 
learning the moves and such. Greco-Roman Wrestling is often seen during the 
Summer Olympics Broadcasts. Rollin Gardner was a gold metal winner for the 
U.S. in 2000.

This is not the so-called ""Wrestling you see on T.V. WWF Tournaments are 
10% wrestling and 90% theatre. The kind of stuff that goes on during WWF 
Meets would never be tolerated in Greco-Roman meets and tournaments. Please 
be sure that the kids understand the difference between the two; that what 
they see or hear on television is not the competitive wrestling they will 
persue in school. Perhaps your son will be a future Olympic metal winner 
participating in the regular events right along with sighted Olympians. All 
the best.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wrestling


Hello Becky:

     It has been a long time since I wrestled. If I recall correctly, the
rules are that if a blind person is wrestling, that contact cannot be broken
during the match. The other thing is that someone will need to show your son
the various moves. He may have to feel someone in the various positions. If
someone gives a good verbal description of what is needed he ought to be
able to follow the instructions. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Becky Mondor" <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:33 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling


> Hi everyone,
>
> My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling
> league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth
> because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout  the
> match.  However,  this is where my knowledge begins and ends!   I  was
> wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give  me some
> helpful tips for his coach?  I am excited he wants to do  this,  it will
> be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  a team sport.  I
> just want to make it as successful as possible!   Thanks!
>
> Becky in Indiana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 




From mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 22:59:45 2010
From: mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com (Mindy Lipsey)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:59:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
In-Reply-To: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <660247.82547.qm@web113620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi Becky,
?
My son is 9 and has been wrestling for 1 year now.? The winter season is coming to an end in March, but your rec league may have spring wrestling.? We do here in Maryland.
?
Josh has peripheral vision, but no central vision.? Wrestling is an awesome sport.? The only piece of advice I would have for you is to make sure they pair your son up with someone who will help Noah with the moves.? This should be a nice boy who is just a bit extra helpful, someone who will walk him through the moves.
?
Wrestling will really get Noah in shape too!

--- On Sun, 2/21/10, Becky Mondor <beckym1027 at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Becky Mondor <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
To: "blindkid at nfbnet.org" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 3:33 PM


Hi everyone,

My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling league.? I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout the match.? However,? this is where my knowledge begins and ends!???I was wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give me some helpful tips for his coach?? I am excited he wants to do this,? it will be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of a team sport.? I just want to make it as successful as possible!? Thanks!

Becky in Indiana

Sent from my iPod

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mindy_lipsey%40yahoo.com



      

From felizfamily5 at msn.com  Sun Feb 21 23:23:07 2010
From: felizfamily5 at msn.com (mark feliz)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:23:07 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
In-Reply-To: <4AEC071A0C974B36943466BAD2BC8D86@D3DTZP41>
References: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
	<4AEC071A0C974B36943466BAD2BC8D86@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <SNT129-DS1308731A0AA42CA921BC149A440@phx.gbl>

Hi Becky:

I did my share of wrestling as a youth. I wrestled both sighted and blind 
wrestlers and the rules are essentially the same with the exception that 
there must always be constant contact. When the two opponents face off they 
can hold their palms out in a one palm up one palm down touching fashion. 
When the whistle blows having vision doesn't matter. Your son can learn the 
wrestling moves quite naturally because the team members practice on each 
other. Sometimes the coach would wrestle with me first to give me a general 
idea of the moves then send me loose on my team.
I would like to say to your son that, when on the mat, he must keep focused. 
He must completely ignore his surroundings. By doing so he will become very 
in tune to his opponent.

Good luck!

Mark Feliz



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:47 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wrestling

> Hello Becky:
>
>     It has been a long time since I wrestled. If I recall correctly, the 
> rules are that if a blind person is wrestling, that contact cannot be 
> broken during the match. The other thing is that someone will need to show 
> your son the various moves. He may have to feel someone in the various 
> positions. If someone gives a good verbal description of what is needed he 
> ought to be able to follow the instructions. Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Becky Mondor" <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:33 PM
> Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling 
>> league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth 
>> because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout 
>> the match.  However,  this is where my knowledge begins and ends!   I 
>> was wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give  me 
>> some helpful tips for his coach?  I am excited he wants to do  this,  it 
>> will be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  a team 
>> sport.  I just want to make it as successful as possible!   Thanks!
>>
>> Becky in Indiana
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/felizfamily5%40msn.com
> 



From icdx at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 22 01:06:19 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:06:19 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
References: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <796A9515BD70445D9A16AADBC40D22C9@CSMC.EDU>

Hi Becky,

You may also want to join & post your question on the NFB's Sports and 
Recreation Division list-serve 
(www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/sportsandrec_nfbnet.org). You are likely to 
get quite a bit of experience-based useful advice there.

Please update us on how things go for Noah!

Best wishes,

Eric V


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Becky Mondor" <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:33
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling


> Hi everyone,
>
> My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth wrestling 
> league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for many blind youth 
> because the two wrestling remain in contact with eachother throughout  the 
> match.  However,  this is where my knowledge begins and ends!   I  was 
> wondering if anyone else has experience with this that could give  me some 
> helpful tips for his coach?  I am excited he wants to do  this,  it will 
> be great exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  a team sport.  I 
> just want to make it as successful as possible!   Thanks!
>
> Becky in Indiana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 




From icdx at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 22 01:09:51 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:09:51 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Kid Based Sports Panel
References: <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959@gmail.com>
	<4A8875FD9B7848E9BAC1AEC0B06D315D@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <8EAA1B48C8284DB89708694A6CE017BE@CSMC.EDU>

For this or a future convention -> It might be fun to have a panel of 
youngsters share 5 minutes of so each on how have approached sports, PE, & 
recreational activities... Seems like there would be quite a broad number of 
topics that could be covered. 




From Dsmith at nabslink.org  Mon Feb 22 19:39:46 2010
From: Dsmith at nabslink.org (Darian Smith)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:39:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: [nabs-l] Blind parents conference call
Message-ID: <2ff306ef966f663920709e1a8751b918.squirrel@webmail.nabslink.org>

Greetings,
  Please find this  message as a welcome invite to all to join our m next 
conference call!


---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Fwd: [nabs-l] Blind parents conference call
From:    "Darian Smith" <dsmithnfb at gmail.com>
Date:    Mon, February 22, 2010 1:34 pm
To:      dsmith at nabslink.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes" <iamantonio at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:34:14 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind parents conference call
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>

Hello all,

Join the National Association of Blind Students and the membership
committee in our latest conference call.

This time we have Melissa and Mark Riccobono to discussing parenting
as a blind person, and couple.

Melissa is blind, and the president of the National Federation of the
Blind of Md. She has been a leader in the Human Services Division.

Marc Riccobono is director of the NFB Jernigan Institute. His
leadership and ideas help drive our movement.

Marc and Melissa are parents to Austin Riccobono, and they are
expecting a second child.

Join the call on February 28 at 7:00 pm eastern, 6 central, 5
mountain, 4 pacific.

Dial 712-775-7100,
 access code 257963.

Whether you are a parent, or might become a blind parent in the
future; if you are a care-taker; if you want to know the joys and
trials or parenting, and the unique aspects of parenting as a blind
person, help make this call a success by joining and participating.

This call is for you, so make the best of it.

Antonio Guimaraes
Membership committee
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com



-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
The National Federation of the Blind has launched a nationwide teacher
recruitment campaign to help attract energetic and passionate
individuals into the field of blindness education, and we need your
help!   To Get Involved  go to:
www.TeachBlindStudents.org


Darian Smith
Board member
 National Association of Blind Students

DSmith at nabslink.org

www.nabslink.org





From hollym12 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 00:08:42 2010
From: hollym12 at gmail.com (holly miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:08:42 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Winning braille?
Message-ID: <7d85dc6d1002221608h6e0c344dn97a28e7099412570@mail.gmail.com>

Everyone here knows how much of a struggle it can be to get kids braille in
school.  Especially if the child has some vision and technically can see
large print.
For those of you who've had to fight for it and won (or know someone), what
finally tipped the scale?

We all know how it's supposed to work but when they have on their side a
bright child who works hard and is able to get good grades despite lack of
accommodations, when they have reports by the "experts" who say "Nope, this
kid doesn't need braille"  has anyone been able to win this?

When educating doesn't work, when persistence doesn't work, when a pound of
letters hasn't worked, when you can quote IDEA & Ruby Riles in your sleep to
no avail?
When your state's blind services (whatever initials they go by) is in the
position many states are in so when they say 'He/she doesn't need it" you
have a hunch it's more "We don't have the staff/funding to provide it" or
"Be happy you kid has the vision he does" whatever the reason, for your
child they are dead set against it?

When you've brought in advocates, when you've spoken to the superintendent
and board of ed? When you finally do hire an attorney because nothing else
is working and that attorney isn't able to make any progress?  When you know
this is so very very important to your child's long term success but you've
already spent a few thousand and don't know if you can scrape up much more
to build a due process case?  What then?

Hypothetically of course :smile

Holly


From EMMOL at aol.com  Tue Feb 23 02:19:17 2010
From: EMMOL at aol.com (EMMOL at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:19:17 EST
Subject: [blindkid] wrestling
Message-ID: <1ea03.59a26424.38b49525@aol.com>

 
Becky, 
My son wrestled in our local youth wrestling program during elementary  
school & really enjoyed it.
He learned the moves as everyone else did. Sometimes when teaching a  new 
technique they demonstrated it using Patrick. That way he was going through  
it as well as getting the verbal. They all practiced with a partner. When  
running their laps he ran with a friend. During meets, one of the coaches 
walked  with him to the center of the mat. Constant contact was reviewed  with 
the opponent. All of the refs were familiar with the technique and it  was 
never a problem. (I was more nervous than he ever was during matches!) What  
a smile on that first win! Unfortunately it became more competitive in 
Middle  School. He wasn't able to make weight. (He was always slight.) But he  
continued to practice with the team.
 
Eventually he gave up wrestling and concentrated on his golf which he had  
started around the same time. He continues to golf, is a member of the 
Junior  Blind Golf Assoc. and worked at a golf course this summer teaching golf 
to kids.  He can't wait for the snow to melt so he can get out on the course 
again!
Eileen
 
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:33:56 -0600
From: Becky Mondor  <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
To: "blindkid at nfbnet.org"  <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
Message-ID:  <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959 at gmail.com>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Hi  everyone,

My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth  wrestling  
league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for  many blind youth  
because the two wrestling remain in contact with  eachother throughout  
the match.  However,  this is where my  knowledge begins and ends!   I  
was wondering if anyone else  has experience with this that could give  
me some helpful tips for his  coach?  I am excited he wants to do  
this,  it will be great  exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  
a team sport.  I  just want to make it as successful as possible!    
Thanks!

Becky in Indiana

Sent from my  iPod




From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 23 02:54:02 2010
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:54:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Winning braille?
In-Reply-To: <7d85dc6d1002221608h6e0c344dn97a28e7099412570@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65894.72328.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I am so sorry to hear that you are having such a rough time. With all the steps that you have taken already, it is hard to imagine why they won't give Braille a shot. Does your child not have a TVI, or is the TVI not wanting to teach Braille? I usually do an informal assessment of the student in large print and again (same type of assessment) orally. If there is a big difference with the large print coming in behind, I go with a combination of LP and pre-Braille.

There isn't anything wrong with transitioning to Braille from large print. Many people have eye conditions that deteriorate over time. Your child may be very good compensating for what he/she is not able to see. Also, just because he/she can use large print doesn't mean that he/she should use large print.

I'm not sure where you live, but there may be an Educational Service Center that can help you out, both with the assessments and with talking to your child's teachers.

I know this isn't much, but I hope it helps a little. Feel free to contact me off list if I can be of any further help.

Good luck,
Colleen
TVI in TX

--- On Mon, 2/22/10, holly miller <hollym12 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: holly miller <hollym12 at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] Winning braille?
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 6:08 PM

Everyone here knows how much of a struggle it can be to get kids braille in
school.? Especially if the child has some vision and technically can see
large print.
For those of you who've had to fight for it and won (or know someone), what
finally tipped the scale?

We all know how it's supposed to work but when they have on their side a
bright child who works hard and is able to get good grades despite lack of
accommodations, when they have reports by the "experts" who say "Nope, this
kid doesn't need braille"? has anyone been able to win this?

When educating doesn't work, when persistence doesn't work, when a pound of
letters hasn't worked, when you can quote IDEA & Ruby Riles in your sleep to
no avail?
When your state's blind services (whatever initials they go by) is in the
position many states are in so when they say 'He/she doesn't need it" you
have a hunch it's more "We don't have the staff/funding to provide it" or
"Be happy you kid has the vision he does" whatever the reason, for your
child they are dead set against it?

When you've brought in advocates, when you've spoken to the superintendent
and board of ed? When you finally do hire an attorney because nothing else
is working and that attorney isn't able to make any progress?? When you know
this is so very very important to your child's long term success but you've
already spent a few thousand and don't know if you can scrape up much more
to build a due process case?? What then?

Hypothetically of course :smile

Holly
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bldhnds52%40yahoo.com


From dandrews at visi.com  Tue Feb 23 03:01:53 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:01:53 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study
Message-ID: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>

[Flyer for Students: Announcement of Study]

Seeking Students for Research Study

Students who are between the ages of 16 and 22 years who are braille 
readers and users of assistive technology are needed for a study. 
This study will explore how you use both braille and electronic 
information for classroom work, and how you learned these literacy 
practices. The purpose of this research will be to add to our 
understanding of the current role of both hard-copy (paper) braille 
and use of electronic access to information by people who are blind 
from ages 16-22, and your attitudes and perceptions about both 
braille and technology. This information will inform how we prepare 
pre-service teachers to instruct young braille readers.

If you are interested in participating in this study or getting more 
information, please contact me via email at  fmd22 at pitt.edu, by 
calling 412-521-5797, or by writing to me at:
Frances Mary D'Andrea
5513 Posvar Hall
University of Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh PA 15260

If you are under 18, you MUST have your parents' or guardians' 
permission. A consent form will be send to you in braille or 
electronically after you verify that you are:
1. between the ages of 16-22
2. a student enrolled in school
3. a braille reader
4. a user of electronic assistive technology devices, hardware, or software.
If you are under 18, your parents will also receive a consent form 
that must be signed before you can participate.

Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you for your interest!

Frances Mary D'Andrea




From missheather at comcast.net  Tue Feb 23 03:45:48 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:45:48 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Winning braille?
References: <7d85dc6d1002221608h6e0c344dn97a28e7099412570@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FCC3694057F4F6286F9A1351A0FC0BA@heathersony>

Dear Holly,
If all else had failed I would discuss it thoroughly with my child and 
have them agree to no longer be able to successfully use their vision 
to do schoolwork. In preparing my child for this I would have them 
meet with and talk to successful blind people who have some vision but 
who successfully use braille and audio technology to perform the tasks 
of daily living and working. I would have my child understand that we 
were fighting for him/her to have tools in their toolbox, to be 
educated in as many ways to function successfully as a blind person, 
during the years when education was supposed to be taking place. When 
he/she was an adult then they would be in the best position to decide 
which tool, braille, print, a cctv, a laptop with speech, a 
magnifyier, a human reader, a portable reader, or all or none was 
appropriate to get life lived to the full. When they were thoroughly 
on side then I would have them boycot the use of vision at school.

Their elementary or middle school grades might suffer for a few months 
but far better this than they fail in college and beyond because of 
lack of braille skills and literacy. If a child simply kept saying "I 
can't see well enough to do it...I can't read that...I can't do my 
homework because my eyes are too tired...I can't take notes because it 
hurts my back to lean over and I can't see it or read what I've 
written..." eventually when grades are falling and teachers can't 
force your child to work visually you would have the proof you need. I 
would take the amunition out of their antibraille guns. If they 
couldn't say "but your child is coping wonderfully with print," then 
braille would be the only alternative.

In short, particularly when a child has been managing and getting good 
grades, if the child simply refuses to succeed using print then, 
unless they deny them an education, braille would be the only answer.

Your question was, what would people do?That's what I would do.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "holly miller" <hollym12 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 6:08 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Winning braille?


Everyone here knows how much of a struggle it can be to get kids 
braille in
school.  Especially if the child has some vision and technically can 
see
large print.
For those of you who've had to fight for it and won (or know someone), 
what
finally tipped the scale?

We all know how it's supposed to work but when they have on their side 
a
bright child who works hard and is able to get good grades despite 
lack of
accommodations, when they have reports by the "experts" who say "Nope, 
this
kid doesn't need braille"  has anyone been able to win this?

When educating doesn't work, when persistence doesn't work, when a 
pound of
letters hasn't worked, when you can quote IDEA & Ruby Riles in your 
sleep to
no avail?
When your state's blind services (whatever initials they go by) is in 
the
position many states are in so when they say 'He/she doesn't need it" 
you
have a hunch it's more "We don't have the staff/funding to provide it" 
or
"Be happy you kid has the vision he does" whatever the reason, for 
your
child they are dead set against it?

When you've brought in advocates, when you've spoken to the 
superintendent
and board of ed? When you finally do hire an attorney because nothing 
else
is working and that attorney isn't able to make any progress?  When 
you know
this is so very very important to your child's long term success but 
you've
already spent a few thousand and don't know if you can scrape up much 
more
to build a due process case?  What then?

Hypothetically of course :smile

Holly
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 





From icdx at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 23 06:23:48 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:23:48 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <345E345156D944B78CA7DF3BEDF49AFE@CSMC.EDU>

While this is great, this is the 21st Century - If they really want to 
adequately prepare teachers then they next also need to look at middle 
schoolers & elementary school kids ;-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 19:01
Subject: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study


> [Flyer for Students: Announcement of Study]
>
> Seeking Students for Research Study
>
> Students who are between the ages of 16 and 22 years who are braille 
> readers and users of assistive technology are needed for a study. This 
> study will explore how you use both braille and electronic information for 
> classroom work, and how you learned these literacy practices. The purpose 
> of this research will be to add to our understanding of the current role 
> of both hard-copy (paper) braille and use of electronic access to 
> information by people who are blind from ages 16-22, and your attitudes 
> and perceptions about both braille and technology. This information will 
> inform how we prepare pre-service teachers to instruct young braille 
> readers.
>
> If you are interested in participating in this study or getting more 
> information, please contact me via email at  fmd22 at pitt.edu, by calling 
> 412-521-5797, or by writing to me at:
> Frances Mary D'Andrea
> 5513 Posvar Hall
> University of Pittsburgh
> Pittsburgh PA 15260
>
> If you are under 18, you MUST have your parents' or guardians' permission. 
> A consent form will be send to you in braille or electronically after you 
> verify that you are:
> 1. between the ages of 16-22
> 2. a student enrolled in school
> 3. a braille reader
> 4. a user of electronic assistive technology devices, hardware, or 
> software.
> If you are under 18, your parents will also receive a consent form that 
> must be signed before you can participate.
>
> Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you for your interest!
>
> Frances Mary D'Andrea
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Tue Feb 23 07:09:29 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 02:09:29 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study
In-Reply-To: <345E345156D944B78CA7DF3BEDF49AFE@CSMC.EDU>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<345E345156D944B78CA7DF3BEDF49AFE@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <2634FA60-8BBC-4DEE-A176-D742568F350F@gopbc.org>

I agree--

Or even pre-elementary. Our daughter was using a Perkins at age three  
and Braillenotes / PAC Mates to a reasonable degree by age five.

I think DrV's sons were doing about the same, right? From what I read  
on this list (and other places too) I don't think that is terribly  
unusual.

Super that they want to look at this but I hope that ultimately they  
will be looking at the approach starting a good 12 or 13 years earlier!

Richard




On Feb 23, 2010, at 1:23 AM, DrV wrote:

> While this is great, this is the 21st Century - If they really want  
> to adequately prepare teachers then they next also need to look at  
> middle schoolers & elementary school kids ;-)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 19:01
> Subject: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study
>
>
>> [Flyer for Students: Announcement of Study]
>>
>> Seeking Students for Research Study
>>
>> Students who are between the ages of 16 and 22 years who are  
>> braille readers and users of assistive technology are needed for a  
>> study. This study will explore how you use both braille and  
>> electronic information for classroom work, and how you learned  
>> these literacy practices. The purpose of this research will be to  
>> add to our understanding of the current role of both hard-copy  
>> (paper) braille and use of electronic access to information by  
>> people who are blind from ages 16-22, and your attitudes and  
>> perceptions about both braille and technology. This information  
>> will inform how we prepare pre-service teachers to instruct young  
>> braille readers.
>>
>> If you are interested in participating in this study or getting  
>> more information, please contact me via email at  fmd22 at pitt.edu,  
>> by calling 412-521-5797, or by writing to me at:
>> Frances Mary D'Andrea
>> 5513 Posvar Hall
>> University of Pittsburgh
>> Pittsburgh PA 15260
>>
>> If you are under 18, you MUST have your parents' or guardians'  
>> permission. A consent form will be send to you in braille or  
>> electronically after you verify that you are:
>> 1. between the ages of 16-22
>> 2. a student enrolled in school
>> 3. a braille reader
>> 4. a user of electronic assistive technology devices, hardware, or  
>> software.
>> If you are under 18, your parents will also receive a consent form  
>> that must be signed before you can participate.
>>
>> Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you for your interest!
>>
>> Frances Mary D'Andrea
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Tue Feb 23 15:09:24 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:09:24 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] wrestling
In-Reply-To: <1ea03.59a26424.38b49525@aol.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000021521816@mailback1.g2host.com>

Many years ago, I wrestled for the school for the blind here in Minnesota.  We had a mixed schedule of some other schools for the blind but mostly area public 
schools.  However, the structure of our practices was very similar to that described below.  There are some wrestling moves that could be taught best with a little 
individual attention, but as noted below, the fact that one cannot wrestle without a partner builds in much of what one needs to learn various moves.  <smile>  

If there are questions that any of us can answer, please let us know.  At least in the past, blind wrestlers were not uncommon at all.  Most of the schools for the blind 
used to have wrestling teams and most of those wrestled compettitively against public schools.  In addition, I know of quite a number of blind wrestlers who also 
wrestled in mainstream schools.  Some have gone on to wrestle in college with some success, but the rules were different and there was not the constant contact 
rule that exists in high school, unless this has changed, but blind wrestlers worked around that.  I did not wrestle in college because I was sick of watching weight to 
the degree that one has to in some cases.  Still, it is probably the physical sport in which we can compete most equally.  These many years later, I still feel I benefit 
from what I learned and developed regarding balance.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:19:17 EST, EMMOL at aol.com wrote:

> 
>Becky, 
>My son wrestled in our local youth wrestling program during elementary  
>school & really enjoyed it.
>He learned the moves as everyone else did. Sometimes when teaching a  new 
>technique they demonstrated it using Patrick. That way he was going through  
>it as well as getting the verbal. They all practiced with a partner. When  
>running their laps he ran with a friend. During meets, one of the coaches 
>walked  with him to the center of the mat. Constant contact was reviewed  with 
>the opponent. All of the refs were familiar with the technique and it  was 
>never a problem. (I was more nervous than he ever was during matches!) What  
>a smile on that first win! Unfortunately it became more competitive in 
>Middle  School. He wasn't able to make weight. (He was always slight.) But he  
>continued to practice with the team.
> 
>Eventually he gave up wrestling and concentrated on his golf which he had  
>started around the same time. He continues to golf, is a member of the 
>Junior  Blind Golf Assoc. and worked at a golf course this summer teaching golf 
>to kids.  He can't wait for the snow to melt so he can get out on the course 
>again!
>Eileen
> 
>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:33:56 -0600
>From: Becky Mondor  <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
>To: "blindkid at nfbnet.org"  <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
>Message-ID:  <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959 at gmail.com>
>Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes

>Hi  everyone,

>My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth  wrestling  
>league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for  many blind youth  
>because the two wrestling remain in contact with  eachother throughout  
>the match.  However,  this is where my  knowledge begins and ends!   I  
>was wondering if anyone else  has experience with this that could give  
>me some helpful tips for his  coach?  I am excited he wants to do  
>this,  it will be great  exercise and a chance for him to be a part of  
>a team sport.  I  just want to make it as successful as possible!    
>Thanks!

>Becky in Indiana

>Sent from my  iPod


>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







From seacknit at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 16:27:10 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:27:10 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>

Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an 
iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from it 
despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the best 
computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in 
screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.  Since 
it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software, it 
might be a good choice.

Sally Thomas 




From thea at doodledoo.com  Tue Feb 23 17:05:04 2010
From: thea at doodledoo.com (Thea Eaton)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:05:04 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com>

As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac. Apple's
own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not compatible
with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash content
is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
compatible screen reader like JAWS.

Thea Eaton
DoodleDoo
www.doodledoo.com   
Where early birds learn.
1-888-42 DOODLE

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sally Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an 
iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from it 
despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the best

computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in 
screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.  Since 
it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software, it

might be a good choice.

Sally Thomas 


_______________________________________________
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blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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om




From slemmonrn at spotlight-music.com  Tue Feb 23 18:37:37 2010
From: slemmonrn at spotlight-music.com (Stacy Lemmon)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:37:37 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Winning braille?
Message-ID: <7BD31DD5DEA440B782B5F801C2D4001E@stacypc>

We had to fight and fight to get Braille for our daughter. She has low vision and can see large print. We wanted her to have every tool available to her, and she gets older she can choose what works best for her. We took a local member of the NFB with us....my how the whole dynamic changed. It became 'what can we do for you and your daughter?'.  Educational advocates are a wonderful resource, and often free.

Stacy

From seacknit at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 18:36:44 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:36:44 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com>
Message-ID: <8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>

I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support Flash.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac. 
> Apple's
> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not 
> compatible
> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash content
> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from it
> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the 
> best
>
> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.  Since
> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software, 
> it
>
> might be a good choice.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com 




From TEOlivero at nfb.org  Tue Feb 23 18:58:16 2010
From: TEOlivero at nfb.org (Olivero, Treva)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:58:16 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B0215CEA3@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>

Sally, 
I would talk to our Access Technology Team in the International Braille
and Technology Center about the use of a Mac book. They are very
familiar with the Apple products, and they will be able to tell you how
the Mac software works with the internet and other common applications.
Call (410) 659-9314, and choose option 5 from the main menu. 

Warmest Regards, 

Treva

Treva E. Olivero
 
Education Program Specialist
 
Jernigan Institute 
 
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 
 
200 East Wells Street 
 
at Jernigan Place
 
Baltimore, MD 21230
 
Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2295
 
Fax: (410) 659-5129
 
Email: teolivero at nfb.org
 
Visit: 
www.nfb.org/education
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Sally Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:27 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from
it despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is
the best computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the
built in screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its
use.  Since it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen
reading software, it might be a good choice.

Sally Thomas 


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/teolivero%40nf
b.org



From rholloway at gopbc.org  Tue Feb 23 19:06:27 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:06:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com>
Message-ID: <4259060B-B102-47CF-9651-84C45BBC9F27@gopbc.org>

I'd like to hear what you learn. I'm a huge Macintosh fan and far  
prefer them but we have so far gone the PC / JAWS route for our  
daughter. Ultimately, I suspect she will find uses for both platforms.  
She's just in first grade now, so many of her computer needs and  
skills are only just emerging...

Richard



On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Thea Eaton wrote:

> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.  
> Apple's
> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not  
> compatible
> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash  
> content
> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son  
> has an
> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email  
> from it
> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is  
> the best
>
> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.   
> Since
> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading  
> software, it
>
> might be a good choice.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 20:04:32 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:04:32 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <6E48626B23B14D43B9D4FD704B1953C4@LivingRoom>

I am aware of some blind computer users who use the MAC and swear by it. I'd 
ask on the NABS list and see what you come up with. A man who was at the 
blind school when I was uses it but for a student planning on going to 
college, I just don't know. I believe there are also some blind Mac  users 
groups as well. It's certainly worth looking into.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sally Thomas" <seacknit at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:27 AM
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an 
> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from it 
> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the 
> best computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built 
> in screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use. 
> Since it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading 
> software, it might be a good choice.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> 




From thea at doodledoo.com  Tue Feb 23 21:49:36 2010
From: thea at doodledoo.com (Thea Eaton)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:49:36 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com>
	<8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com>

Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash content.
Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal do
not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting to
use a screen reader to access the web. 


Thea Eaton
DoodleDoo
www.doodledoo.com   
Where early birds learn.
1-888-42 DOODLE


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sally Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support Flash.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac. 
> Apple's
> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not 
> compatible
> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash content
> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from it
> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the 
> best
>
> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.  Since
> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software, 
> it
>
> might be a good choice.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
om 


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om




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Feb 23 17:12:33 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:12:33 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] wrestling
References: <auto-000021521816@mailback1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <03DF86DF8A1443EF9F148357D04A8DE8@7PYZPJ1>

At some point I might try to get Jeremy into wrestling, but it will be 
difficult, because A. the closest school for the blind is a joke, and I 
wouldn't send my dog there, let alone my son.  I know there are better 
schools for the blind out there, but even if we lived near one, I don't know 
if they would let him compete and participate, since we will be 
homeschooling him.  B. Getting a coach in a public school to accomidate a 
blind child or a homeschooler admited to the school for extraciricular 
activities only, is not an easy thing, put the two together, and it could 
get quite difficult indeed.  I really want to get him into nice mainstreamed 
sports like horseback riding, gymnastics, swimming, wrestling, etc, that 
require little adaptation and are not spacific teams for blind children. 
Therefore, although, I won't refuse to let him play something like beep 
baseball or goalball, I will make sure that he knows what real baseball and 
football and soccer are like and I will encourage him to also play a sport 
on a sighted team.  I always hated playing goal ball myself, for two 
reasons.  1.  They never let anyone win.  No matter how many goals our team 
scored, they would never say that we won, that we beat the other team, and 
it drove me crazy.  And we are not talking about seven year olds.  We were 
fifteen.  In one game we made 28 goals and the other team made three.  I 
congradulated my team mates saying, we won.  We kicked butt, good job team, 
I was the unofficial team captain, and the organizers went nuts on me saying 
that there are no winners or losers.  I bluntly informed them, that the 
other team were losers, this time, and that we were winners, that we didn't 
think less of the other players, but that saying that we had not won would 
be a lie.  I really got going, saying that it was assanine to never let any 
team claim their well won victory, that that was a defeatest and almost 
communist view, and the rest of my team went nuts with me and we all walked 
off and they couldn't get together games anymore.  and 2.  Whenever people 
would see me playing a highly adapted or specialized sport, they would ask 
if I were going to be in the special olimpics.  This drives me absolutely 
insane, as, although there are official competition games for blind people, 
deaf people, those in wheelchairs, etc, the special olimpics is a seperate 
thing, and is for people with MR, not simply people who are blind, deaf, 
etc.  I would always tell ignorant people off, get in their faces if need 
be, set them strait nicely when possible, but, I knew that for every ten 
people that I explained all of this to, there were probably a hundred who 
saw me playing beep baseball and just walked away, making assumptions about 
me and my blind teammates.  Long story short?  Any team Jeremy plays on, 
blind or sighted must be a truly competetive team, the coach must not give 
him extra privilages or praise when he hasn't earned it, and he must give 
him equal play time and opertunities to the other players.  I had never 
really considered wrestling before, but I think it might be right up 
Jeremy's alley when he gets older, as he is a very physical little guy, has 
relatively strong bodily kenesthetic intelligence and would probably enjoy 
being part of a team, he is a people person.  Thanks for starting this 
thread, it has given me some fun new ideas.  Also, it would probably really 
apeal to Jeremy's father, since he is a United States Marine and he had a 
lot of fun with me, when we took a personal defense class together for our 
PE requirement in college.  Have a nice day all.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] wrestling


> Many years ago, I wrestled for the school for the blind here in Minnesota. 
> We had a mixed schedule of some other schools for the blind but mostly 
> area public
> schools.  However, the structure of our practices was very similar to that 
> described below.  There are some wrestling moves that could be taught best 
> with a little
> individual attention, but as noted below, the fact that one cannot wrestle 
> without a partner builds in much of what one needs to learn various moves. 
> <smile>
>
> If there are questions that any of us can answer, please let us know.  At 
> least in the past, blind wrestlers were not uncommon at all.  Most of the 
> schools for the blind
> used to have wrestling teams and most of those wrestled compettitively 
> against public schools.  In addition, I know of quite a number of blind 
> wrestlers who also
> wrestled in mainstream schools.  Some have gone on to wrestle in college 
> with some success, but the rules were different and there was not the 
> constant contact
> rule that exists in high school, unless this has changed, but blind 
> wrestlers worked around that.  I did not wrestle in college because I was 
> sick of watching weight to
> the degree that one has to in some cases.  Still, it is probably the 
> physical sport in which we can compete most equally.  These many years 
> later, I still feel I benefit
> from what I learned and developed regarding balance.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:19:17 EST, EMMOL at aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Becky,
>>My son wrestled in our local youth wrestling program during elementary
>>school & really enjoyed it.
>>He learned the moves as everyone else did. Sometimes when teaching a  new
>>technique they demonstrated it using Patrick. That way he was going 
>>through
>>it as well as getting the verbal. They all practiced with a partner. When
>>running their laps he ran with a friend. During meets, one of the coaches
>>walked  with him to the center of the mat. Constant contact was reviewed 
>>with
>>the opponent. All of the refs were familiar with the technique and it  was
>>never a problem. (I was more nervous than he ever was during matches!) 
>>What
>>a smile on that first win! Unfortunately it became more competitive in
>>Middle  School. He wasn't able to make weight. (He was always slight.) But 
>>he
>>continued to practice with the team.
>>
>>Eventually he gave up wrestling and concentrated on his golf which he had
>>started around the same time. He continues to golf, is a member of the
>>Junior  Blind Golf Assoc. and worked at a golf course this summer teaching 
>>golf
>>to kids.  He can't wait for the snow to melt so he can get out on the 
>>course
>>again!
>>Eileen
>>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:33:56 -0600
>>From: Becky Mondor  <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
>>To: "blindkid at nfbnet.org"  <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
>>Message-ID:  <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959 at gmail.com>
>>Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>>Hi  everyone,
>
>>My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth  wrestling
>>league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for  many blind youth
>>because the two wrestling remain in contact with  eachother throughout
>>the match.  However,  this is where my  knowledge begins and ends!   I
>>was wondering if anyone else  has experience with this that could give
>>me some helpful tips for his  coach?  I am excited he wants to do
>>this,  it will be great  exercise and a chance for him to be a part of
>>a team sport.  I  just want to make it as successful as possible!
>>Thanks!
>
>>Becky in Indiana
>
>>Sent from my  iPod
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Feb 23 17:24:45 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:24:45 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<345E345156D944B78CA7DF3BEDF49AFE@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <884B4D88715F4E798EA6BF57281DECD1@7PYZPJ1>

What I am guessing the aim of the study is, is to determine how many 
highschool and undergraduate studies college students use Braille, how it 
compairs with their adaptive technology usage, if there is a strong 
preference for one or another depending on the subject being taught, etc. 
For instance, there has been a push lately to get more resources devoted to 
producing braille textbooks for foreign language, mathamatics and the 
sciences, as well as braille music, or if that is not possible, to route 
some of the resources being devoted to English, History, Psychology, etc 
textbooks, to the subjects where Braille is more essential.  All of the 
blind high school and college students that I know almost never use braille 
in things like Literature, History, Psychology, Phylosophy, etc, but go to 
great lengths to acquire braille for math, science and music.  Perhaps this 
study will help by influencing the textbook publishers, the library of 
congress or organizations like RFBandD.  Just to clarify, there will always 
be students who hate braille, won't use it in any subject if they don't have 
to, and love their laptops, and there will always be students who insist on 
braille for everything, including classes like English and for pleasure 
reading, but the vast majority seem to have things for which they prefer 
braille or adaptive tech in a big way.  I have had to pay out-of-pocket for 
brailled music theory books, French books, Italian books and science texts, 
because they did not exist in that form.  And people couldn't seem to 
understand that having my French book from RFBandD was close to useless.  On 
other occations I have had to fight with my TVI, in high school who was 
insisting that I read all of the books for my AP english course in braille, 
rather than on tape.  Yeah, she lost that battle quick fast and in a hurry. 
I was taking eight highschool classes, five music classes at Eastman, and we 
had a book list over a print page long for my AP English class.  I didn't 
have the time to be reading all of that in Braille.  She even went so far as 
to insist in my IEP meeting that I return the NLS books on cassette tape 
that I was using and use the braille ones she had ordered.  She lost that 
battle too.  I just turned 23, and it is too bad, because the study is 18/22 
and I would have loved to have participated.  Ah well, no use crying over 
missed out on surveys and studies.  Take care everyone.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study


> While this is great, this is the 21st Century - If they really want to 
> adequately prepare teachers then they next also need to look at middle 
> schoolers & elementary school kids ;-)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 19:01
> Subject: [blindkid] Seeking Students for Braille Study
>
>
>> [Flyer for Students: Announcement of Study]
>>
>> Seeking Students for Research Study
>>
>> Students who are between the ages of 16 and 22 years who are braille 
>> readers and users of assistive technology are needed for a study. This 
>> study will explore how you use both braille and electronic information 
>> for classroom work, and how you learned these literacy practices. The 
>> purpose of this research will be to add to our understanding of the 
>> current role of both hard-copy (paper) braille and use of electronic 
>> access to information by people who are blind from ages 16-22, and your 
>> attitudes and perceptions about both braille and technology. This 
>> information will inform how we prepare pre-service teachers to instruct 
>> young braille readers.
>>
>> If you are interested in participating in this study or getting more 
>> information, please contact me via email at  fmd22 at pitt.edu, by calling 
>> 412-521-5797, or by writing to me at:
>> Frances Mary D'Andrea
>> 5513 Posvar Hall
>> University of Pittsburgh
>> Pittsburgh PA 15260
>>
>> If you are under 18, you MUST have your parents' or guardians' 
>> permission. A consent form will be send to you in braille or 
>> electronically after you verify that you are:
>> 1. between the ages of 16-22
>> 2. a student enrolled in school
>> 3. a braille reader
>> 4. a user of electronic assistive technology devices, hardware, or 
>> software.
>> If you are under 18, your parents will also receive a consent form that 
>> must be signed before you can participate.
>>
>> Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you for your interest!
>>
>> Frances Mary D'Andrea
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com
> 




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Feb 23 20:40:36 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:40:36 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com>
Message-ID: <43A85930D4BC4F7AA7E378044BC0D122@7PYZPJ1>

My friend Amanda has a mac book and she goes all over the internet, doing 
her banking, shopping, research, networking, blogging, etc online with no 
problems.  Last time I checked, and I admit that this is something I need to 
take another look at, as I last struggled with it three years ago, but last 
I checked, flash is a bad thing for JFW, not just for Macs, and her built in 
screne reader does a lot of things that JFW won't.  For instance, some sites 
I have trouble navigating with my very up-to-date copy of JFW she can handel 
with no problem, to the point that I have to sometimes call her, give her 
the web address and ask her if her Mac can help me out, if it is research I 
really need or a product I can't buy from another site.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac. 
> Apple's
> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not 
> compatible
> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash content
> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from it
> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the 
> best
>
> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.  Since
> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software, 
> it
>
> might be a good choice.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Wed Feb 24 00:50:44 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:50:44 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Winning braille?
In-Reply-To: <7BD31DD5DEA440B782B5F801C2D4001E@stacypc>
References: <7BD31DD5DEA440B782B5F801C2D4001E@stacypc>
Message-ID: <CA9842A1-23F9-4A7F-ACF9-B24C0E85146A@gopbc.org>

Thankfully, we've never had any issues in getting braille as our child  
has no vision at all (that makes the whole large print thing a little  
harder for them to suggest!) We have, however, taken along a blind  
advocate (a friend and associate from the NFB of Georgia in this case).

I must say that we found it interesting how we too noticed a  
significant change in the attention level and responses of much of the  
staff, and I say this noting that we have virtually always had  
extremely positive and cooperative IEP's.

I think that somehow, it just makes it harder forget that there is a  
long-term objective that we are all trying to reach-- it isn't just  
about making things fit into the budget or doing what is more  
convenient for the staff, school system, etc. It should not make a  
difference, but in our experience, it certainly did.

Richard



On Feb 23, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Stacy Lemmon wrote:

> We had to fight and fight to get Braille for our daughter. She has  
> low vision and can see large print. We wanted her to have every tool  
> available to her, and she gets older she can choose what works best  
> for her. We took a local member of the NFB with us....my how the  
> whole dynamic changed. It became 'what can we do for you and your  
> daughter?'.  Educational advocates are a wonderful resource, and  
> often free.
>
> Stacy
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From seacknit at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 01:04:12 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:04:12 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>
	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com>
Message-ID: <1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC>

I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear comments 
like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My son 
is past the Cartoon Network stage.

When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not 
accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I am 
sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to check 
with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on 
usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check with 
the student division is a good one too.

Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an 
academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve accessibility, 
I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.

Sally Thomas


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash 
> content.
> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal do
> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting to
> use a screen reader to access the web.
>
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support 
> Flash.
>
> Sally Thomas
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>> Apple's
>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>> compatible
>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash 
>> content
>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from 
>> it
>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>> best
>>
>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use. 
>> Since
>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software,
>> it
>>
>> might be a good choice.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com 




From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Wed Feb 24 01:08:17 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:08:17 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] wrestling
In-Reply-To: <03DF86DF8A1443EF9F148357D04A8DE8@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <auto-000021529984@mailback1.g2host.com>

Heather,

While you probably are making some realistic points here, I would think it would be worth exploring with a local school.  
A cooperative coach would certainly help, but working with a williing wrestler might also be an approach to fill in some of 
the gaps and be an option for an uncertain coach to consider.  A school for the blind should not be a requirement for 
this.  There are additional problems with home schooling involved, I recognize that, though, and wish you success..

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:12:33 -0500, Heather wrote:

>At some point I might try to get Jeremy into wrestling, but it will be 
>difficult, because A. the closest school for the blind is a joke, and I 
>wouldn't send my dog there, let alone my son.  I know there are better 
>schools for the blind out there, but even if we lived near one, I don't know 
>if they would let him compete and participate, since we will be 
>homeschooling him.  B. Getting a coach in a public school to accomidate a 
>blind child or a homeschooler admited to the school for extraciricular 
>activities only, is not an easy thing, put the two together, and it could 
>get quite difficult indeed.  I really want to get him into nice mainstreamed 
>sports like horseback riding, gymnastics, swimming, wrestling, etc, that 
>require little adaptation and are not spacific teams for blind children. 
>Therefore, although, I won't refuse to let him play something like beep 
>baseball or goalball, I will make sure that he knows what real baseball and 
>football and soccer are like and I will encourage him to also play a sport 
>on a sighted team.  I always hated playing goal ball myself, for two 
>reasons.  1.  They never let anyone win.  No matter how many goals our team 
>scored, they would never say that we won, that we beat the other team, and 
>it drove me crazy.  And we are not talking about seven year olds.  We were 
>fifteen.  In one game we made 28 goals and the other team made three.  I 
>congradulated my team mates saying, we won.  We kicked butt, good job team, 
>I was the unofficial team captain, and the organizers went nuts on me saying 
>that there are no winners or losers.  I bluntly informed them, that the 
>other team were losers, this time, and that we were winners, that we didn't 
>think less of the other players, but that saying that we had not won would 
>be a lie.  I really got going, saying that it was assanine to never let any 
>team claim their well won victory, that that was a defeatest and almost 
>communist view, and the rest of my team went nuts with me and we all walked 
>off and they couldn't get together games anymore.  and 2.  Whenever people 
>would see me playing a highly adapted or specialized sport, they would ask 
>if I were going to be in the special olimpics.  This drives me absolutely 
>insane, as, although there are official competition games for blind people, 
>deaf people, those in wheelchairs, etc, the special olimpics is a seperate 
>thing, and is for people with MR, not simply people who are blind, deaf, 
>etc.  I would always tell ignorant people off, get in their faces if need 
>be, set them strait nicely when possible, but, I knew that for every ten 
>people that I explained all of this to, there were probably a hundred who 
>saw me playing beep baseball and just walked away, making assumptions about 
>me and my blind teammates.  Long story short?  Any team Jeremy plays on, 
>blind or sighted must be a truly competetive team, the coach must not give 
>him extra privilages or praise when he hasn't earned it, and he must give 
>him equal play time and opertunities to the other players.  I had never 
>really considered wrestling before, but I think it might be right up 
>Jeremy's alley when he gets older, as he is a very physical little guy, has 
>relatively strong bodily kenesthetic intelligence and would probably enjoy 
>being part of a team, he is a people person.  Thanks for starting this 
>thread, it has given me some fun new ideas.  Also, it would probably really 
>apeal to Jeremy's father, since he is a United States Marine and he had a 
>lot of fun with me, when we took a personal defense class together for our 
>PE requirement in college.  Have a nice day all.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:09 AM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] wrestling


>> Many years ago, I wrestled for the school for the blind here in Minnesota. 
>> We had a mixed schedule of some other schools for the blind but mostly 
>> area public
>> schools.  However, the structure of our practices was very similar to that 
>> described below.  There are some wrestling moves that could be taught best 
>> with a little
>> individual attention, but as noted below, the fact that one cannot wrestle 
>> without a partner builds in much of what one needs to learn various moves. 
>> <smile>
>>
>> If there are questions that any of us can answer, please let us know.  At 
>> least in the past, blind wrestlers were not uncommon at all.  Most of the 
>> schools for the blind
>> used to have wrestling teams and most of those wrestled compettitively 
>> against public schools.  In addition, I know of quite a number of blind 
>> wrestlers who also
>> wrestled in mainstream schools.  Some have gone on to wrestle in college 
>> with some success, but the rules were different and there was not the 
>> constant contact
>> rule that exists in high school, unless this has changed, but blind 
>> wrestlers worked around that.  I did not wrestle in college because I was 
>> sick of watching weight to
>> the degree that one has to in some cases.  Still, it is probably the 
>> physical sport in which we can compete most equally.  These many years 
>> later, I still feel I benefit
>> from what I learned and developed regarding balance.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:19:17 EST, EMMOL at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Becky,
>>>My son wrestled in our local youth wrestling program during elementary
>>>school & really enjoyed it.
>>>He learned the moves as everyone else did. Sometimes when teaching a  new
>>>technique they demonstrated it using Patrick. That way he was going 
>>>through
>>>it as well as getting the verbal. They all practiced with a partner. When
>>>running their laps he ran with a friend. During meets, one of the coaches
>>>walked  with him to the center of the mat. Constant contact was reviewed 
>>>with
>>>the opponent. All of the refs were familiar with the technique and it  was
>>>never a problem. (I was more nervous than he ever was during matches!) 
>>>What
>>>a smile on that first win! Unfortunately it became more competitive in
>>>Middle  School. He wasn't able to make weight. (He was always slight.) But 
>>>he
>>>continued to practice with the team.
>>>
>>>Eventually he gave up wrestling and concentrated on his golf which he had
>>>started around the same time. He continues to golf, is a member of the
>>>Junior  Blind Golf Assoc. and worked at a golf course this summer teaching 
>>>golf
>>>to kids.  He can't wait for the snow to melt so he can get out on the 
>>>course
>>>again!
>>>Eileen
>>>
>>>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:33:56 -0600
>>>From: Becky Mondor  <beckym1027 at gmail.com>
>>>To: "blindkid at nfbnet.org"  <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Subject: [blindkid] Wrestling
>>>Message-ID:  <87C2571B-AE1A-4F19-AC76-55620932B959 at gmail.com>
>>>Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>>>Hi  everyone,
>>
>>>My son Noah is 10 and would like to join the local youth  wrestling
>>>league.  I know that this is a very popular sport for  many blind youth
>>>because the two wrestling remain in contact with  eachother throughout
>>>the match.  However,  this is where my  knowledge begins and ends!   I
>>>was wondering if anyone else  has experience with this that could give
>>>me some helpful tips for his  coach?  I am excited he wants to do
>>>this,  it will be great  exercise and a chance for him to be a part of
>>>a team sport.  I  just want to make it as successful as possible!
>>>Thanks!
>>
>>>Becky in Indiana
>>
>>>Sent from my  iPod
>>
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 


>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







From thea at doodledoo.com  Wed Feb 24 04:48:10 2010
From: thea at doodledoo.com (Thea Eaton)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:48:10 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com>
	<1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>

Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal, as long
as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for accessibility. 

Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access Flash.
Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will have
Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their online
textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand in hand
with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their assessments
online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash based. All
these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because you will
only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a large
portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.

Thea Eaton
DoodleDoo
www.doodledoo.com   
Where early birds learn.
1-888-42 DOODLE


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sally Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear comments

like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My son

is past the Cartoon Network stage.

When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not 
accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I am 
sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to check

with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on 
usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check with 
the student division is a good one too.

Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an 
academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve accessibility, 
I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.

Sally Thomas


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash 
> content.
> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal do
> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting to
> use a screen reader to access the web.
>
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support 
> Flash.
>
> Sally Thomas
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>> Apple's
>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>> compatible
>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash 
>> content
>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from 
>> it
>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>> best
>>
>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use. 
>> Since
>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software,
>> it
>>
>> might be a good choice.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
om 


_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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om




From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Wed Feb 24 16:13:33 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:13:33 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC>
	<00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>
Message-ID: <8936211B5AD34CECBE85396EF6D55A5B@7PYZPJ1>

Um, I don't know all of the spacifics, but either you are wrong about JFW 
being able to deal with flash, you are probably right though, or, the vast 
majority of flash out there is not propperly tagged, which is most likely 
the case, because my very current version of windows and JFW gets it's butt 
kicked by flash every single day.  Fortunately, Mac is working on fixing 
voice over, which is great because Macs really can be a neat asset.  A 
couple of people have mentioned the technology center through the NFB's 
institute, and I think, when I am ready to purchase my next computer, that I 
will give them a call, instead of relying on our local adaptive tech people 
at ABVI, because, they seem to know much better what they are about, and I 
am really intrested in getting info on Macs as well as on what is coming 
down the pipeline for Macs and windows computers in the future.  I checked 
with my friend, and she said that what her computer was doing better than 
mine, that I kept needing her assistance with was PDFs, as Mac's voice over 
can handel them better than JFW, which can work with them, but not nearly as 
well and as quickly as a Mac.  So, flash?  Windows 1, Macs zip, but PDF? 
Macs 1, windows 0.25.  lol  I think there's always going to be things that 
each system can do better than the other, a balance of pros and cons, 
because of people's different needs and varying preferences.  Have a nice 
day all.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal, as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for 
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access 
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand in 
> hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their 
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash based. 
> All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear 
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My 
> son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to 
> check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check 
> with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve 
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal 
>> do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting 
>> to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading 
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Wed Feb 24 16:30:21 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:30:21 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <8936211B5AD34CECBE85396EF6D55A5B@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>
	<8936211B5AD34CECBE85396EF6D55A5B@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <CACDEF7F60DD4FAF8D400D3BF58BAFB0@JkTC4D1>

 The flash players ar not tagged properly and therefore do not interface
with jfw well at all.That  is my experience too.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:14 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

Um, I don't know all of the spacifics, but either you are wrong about JFW 
being able to deal with flash, you are probably right though, or, the vast 
majority of flash out there is not propperly tagged, which is most likely 
the case, because my very current version of windows and JFW gets it's butt 
kicked by flash every single day.  Fortunately, Mac is working on fixing 
voice over, which is great because Macs really can be a neat asset.  A 
couple of people have mentioned the technology center through the NFB's 
institute, and I think, when I am ready to purchase my next computer, that I

will give them a call, instead of relying on our local adaptive tech people 
at ABVI, because, they seem to know much better what they are about, and I 
am really intrested in getting info on Macs as well as on what is coming 
down the pipeline for Macs and windows computers in the future.  I checked 
with my friend, and she said that what her computer was doing better than 
mine, that I kept needing her assistance with was PDFs, as Mac's voice over 
can handel them better than JFW, which can work with them, but not nearly as

well and as quickly as a Mac.  So, flash?  Windows 1, Macs zip, but PDF? 
Macs 1, windows 0.25.  lol  I think there's always going to be things that 
each system can do better than the other, a balance of pros and cons, 
because of people's different needs and varying preferences.  Have a nice 
day all.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal, as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for 
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access 
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand in 
> hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their 
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash based. 
> All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear 
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My 
> son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to 
> check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check 
> with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve 
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal 
>> do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting 
>> to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading 
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
er.rr.com 


_______________________________________________
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blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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ot.org




From TEOlivero at nfb.org  Thu Feb 25 02:51:22 2010
From: TEOlivero at nfb.org (Olivero,
	Treva)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:51:22 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Braille Reading Pals Club
Message-ID: <auto-000141333781@mailfront1.g2host.com>


National Federation of the Blind
Braille Reading Pals Club

Registration is now open for the New Year beginning April 1, 2010.

The Braille Reading Pals Club is an early literacy program that 
encourages parents to read daily with their blind or low-vision child 
(ages infant to seven).
Participating club members will receive:
    *  A print-Braille book and a plush reading pal
    * Monthly parent e-newsletter promoting tips for early Braille literacy
    * Quarterly Braille activity sheets for young children
    * Braille birthday cards for child participants
    * Access to a network of resources devoted to serving parents of 
blind children
Mission of the Program
    * Introduce young children and their families to Braille
    * Provide parents literacy strategies to use with their children
    * Direct parents to essential resources for promoting success for 
their young blind children
    * Help parents promote early literacy skills, a love of reading, 
and a positive attitude about Braille through daily reading with 
their blind children

To learn more about this exciting program, or to register, please 
visit <http://www.nfb.org/readingpals>www.nfb.org/readingpals, or 
call (410) 659-9314, ext. 2295.

Cosponsored by the National Organization of Parents of Blind Children (NOPBC)
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From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Feb 25 03:07:00 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:07:00 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] wrestling
In-Reply-To: <03DF86DF8A1443EF9F148357D04A8DE8@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000021521816@mailback1.g2host.com>
	<03DF86DF8A1443EF9F148357D04A8DE8@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <auto-000141335631@mailfront1.g2host.com>

I can't address the home schooling thing, as I know nothing about 
it.  I wrestled in a public high school, I was the only blind guy on 
the team -- in fact, the coach recruited me.  While there might be 
barriers, I don't think you need to limit your thoughts to a school 
for the blind.

As others have pointed out, wrestling is pretty physical and 
touch-oriented, and lots of blind persons have done it over the 
years.  One way to learn is that generally the coach has to 
demonstrate moves on somebody.  If he uses the blind guy, then the 
blind guy knows how to do stuff first hand.

Dave

At 11:12 AM 2/23/2010, you wrote:
>At some point I might try to get Jeremy into wrestling, but it will 
>be difficult, because A. the closest school for the blind is a joke, 
>and I wouldn't send my dog there, let alone my son.  I know there 
>are better schools for the blind out there, but even if we lived 
>near one, I don't know if they would let him compete and 
>participate, since we will be homeschooling him.  B. Getting a coach 
>in a public school to accomidate a blind child or a homeschooler 
>admited to the school for extraciricular activities only, is not an 
>easy thing, put the two together, and it could get quite difficult 
>indeed.  I really want to get him into nice mainstreamed sports like 
>horseback riding, gymnastics, swimming, wrestling, etc, that require 
>little adaptation and are not spacific teams for blind children. 
>Therefore, although, I won't refuse to let him play something like 
>beep baseball or goalball, I will make sure that he knows what real 
>baseball and football and soccer are like and I will encourage him 
>to also play a sport on a sighted team.  I always hated playing goal 
>ball myself, for two reasons.  1.  They never let anyone win.  No 
>matter how many goals our team scored, they would never say that we 
>won, that we beat the other team, and it drove me crazy.  And we are 
>not talking about seven year olds.  We were fifteen.  In one game we 
>made 28 goals and the other team made three.  I congradulated my 
>team mates saying, we won.  We kicked butt, good job team, I was the 
>unofficial team captain, and the organizers went nuts on me saying 
>that there are no winners or losers.  I bluntly informed them, that 
>the other team were losers, this time, and that we were winners, 
>that we didn't think less of the other players, but that saying that 
>we had not won would be a lie.  I really got going, saying that it 
>was assanine to never let any team claim their well won victory, 
>that that was a defeatest and almost communist view, and the rest of 
>my team went nuts with me and we all walked off and they couldn't 
>get together games anymore.  and 2.  Whenever people would see me 
>playing a highly adapted or specialized sport, they would ask if I 
>were going to be in the special olimpics.  This drives me absolutely 
>insane, as, although there are official competition games for blind 
>people, deaf people, those in wheelchairs, etc, the special olimpics 
>is a seperate thing, and is for people with MR, not simply people 
>who are blind, deaf, etc.  I would always tell ignorant people off, 
>get in their faces if need be, set them strait nicely when possible, 
>but, I knew that for every ten people that I explained all of this 
>to, there were probably a hundred who saw me playing beep baseball 
>and just walked away, making assumptions about me and my blind 
>teammates.  Long story short?  Any team Jeremy plays on, blind or 
>sighted must be a truly competetive team, the coach must not give 
>him extra privilages or praise when he hasn't earned it, and he must 
>give him equal play time and opertunities to the other players.  I 
>had never really considered wrestling before, but I think it might 
>be right up Jeremy's alley when he gets older, as he is a very 
>physical little guy, has relatively strong bodily kenesthetic 
>intelligence and would probably enjoy being part of a team, he is a 
>people person.  Thanks for starting this thread, it has given me 
>some fun new ideas.  Also, it would probably really apeal to 
>Jeremy's father, since he is a United States Marine and he had a lot 
>of fun with me, when we took a personal defense class together for 
>our PE requirement in college.  Have a nice day all.




From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Feb 25 03:03:24 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:03:24 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <auto-000140915222@mailfront2.g2host.com>

The Mac is certainly a good alternative to a Windows-based PC, some 
blind people love them, some don't. They don't use a touch screen, 
yet anyway, so it will be some different from the iPod Touch.  Some 
of the keyboard commands can get a little complex, and it is 
different from a Windows-based PC.  If your son hasn't used Windows, 
this may be easier in some ways, nothing to unlearn.

On the Apple, if a software package is written in a certain way, then 
it is accessible.  If not there is nothing you can do, unlike Windows 
where sometimes you can script in accessibility after the fact.

Dave

At 10:27 AM 2/23/2010, you wrote:
>Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son 
>has an iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send 
>email from it despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that 
>a MacBook is the best computer for him.  I'm wondering about the 
>limitations of the built in screen reader or any other 
>idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.  Since it doesn't require 
>the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software, it might be a 
>good choice.
>
>Sally Thomas




From atfirstsight at ligondesign.com  Thu Feb 25 13:40:46 2010
From: atfirstsight at ligondesign.com (Leslie Ligon)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:40:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] blindkid Digest, Vol 70, Issue 22
References: <mailman.62.1267034409.18719.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <5603E1A747F342F4B9D45B99EBCB7168@ligonacaebc954>

Sally, I agree with your comment below and would appreciate knowing what you 
learn. My husband is a Mac user because of their design based software, and 
he uses it at Univ. of North TX, as do all of the students. We keep having 
trouble with having to reload JFW again and again...
It's giving us fits, and  since my husband is used to working on/with Macs, 
contending with JFW/Windows is frustratingly just removed.

We would love the option of going with a Mac, especially in light as you 
mentioned, given Heather's friend and NFB support.

Best wishes to you and your family,
Leslie Ligon
214-675-4061

>>I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear 
>>comments
like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My son
is past the Cartoon Network stage.

When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I am
sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to check
with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check with
the student division is a good one too.

Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an
academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve accessibility,
I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.

Sally Thomas>>



From carol_castellano at verizon.net  Thu Feb 25 15:18:46 2010
From: carol_castellano at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:18:46 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Resources for Homeschoolers
Message-ID: <543858.9673.qm@smtp103.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


>I received the following information from Bookshare.

Carol

Carol Castellano, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
973-377-0976
carol_castellano at verizon.net
www.nfb.org/nopbc

>[]
>
>
>
>Parents In The Know!
>Bookshare Parent Newsletter - February 2010
>
>
>
>Resources for Homeschoolers
>
>An estimated 1.5 million students are homeschooled in the United 
>States according to the 
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/a7a341ed17>National 
>Household Education Surveys Program. The number of children 
>homeschooled has increased since 1999, and there are a number of 
>reasons that influence this decision. For 4 percent of these parents 
>(or guardians) who choose this method, it is because a child has special needs.
>
>It is a challenge to get resources. Parents have shared with us that 
>it is very difficult to get accessible books and reading tools for 
>children with disabilities. This can be particularly true for 
>homeschoolers who do not have everyday access to special education 
>teachers and public school resources. Furthermore, processes for 
>special needs testing and for getting accommodations vary from state to state.
>
>Bookshare can help. Bookshare's online library is available 
>worldwide and can be accessed 24 hours a day. The collection has 
>over 68,000 digital books and tools that make reading possible for 
>students who previously found it difficult or impossible to read 
>traditional print. Bookshare's books are downloaded to computers and 
>accessed with software or devices that allow students to listen to 
>books, hear and see words at the same time (multi-modal), and use 
>advanced study tools.
>
>Homeschoolers can qualify! Bookshare memberships are available for 
>free to all U.S. students with 
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/aad23275c3>qualified 
>print disabilities such as blindness, low-vision, physical 
>disabilities and severe learning disabilities. Qualified 
>homeschoolers can join with an individual membership that gives them 
>the ability to download, read, and study with the vast majority of 
>Bookshare books and free reading software.
>
>How about textbooks? Bookshare's library carries K-12 textbooks that 
>come from the 
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/0c808fc1af>National 
>Instructional Materials Access Center (NIMAC). These textbooks can 
>be downloaded only by teachers at public schools for Bookshare 
>student members with IEPs. Where does this leave homeschoolers? 
>Depending upon your state and the district in which you live, 
>homeschool students may still have options if you can work with your 
>local school.
>
>Want to learn more? Join Bookshare on Tuesday, March 9 (5pm ET, 4pm 
>CT, 3pm MT, 2pm PT) for a webinar solely dedicated to homeschoolers. 
>We will discuss:
>    * Who qualifies for Bookshare?
>    * How can homeschoolers sign up their children?
>    * How can Bookshare be used at home?
>    * How can textbooks be accessed?
>    * 
> <http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/09910930e0>Sign 
> up today!
>
>----------
>As always, we're interested in your thoughts and comments. Contact 
>us at: 
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/a16ad4e881>http://www.bookshare.org/contactUs
>
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/2ef175463a>
>This project is supported by the U.S. Department of Education,
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/2ef175463a> 
>Mario Oliveros, Partner Program Manager
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/9025c7542a>
>Bookshare
>
>mom and son reading
>
>
>Partners Making a Difference
>
>logo of Peal Center
>
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/88792f16fe>The 
>PEAL Center is a parent organization that provides individual 
>assistance, information on resources, and training to help parents 
>of children with disabilities and professionals in Central and 
>Western Pennsylvania.
>
>The PEAL Center will hold its Fourth Annual Inclusive Education 
>Conference on March 16 and 17 at the Four Points Sheraton in Mars, 
>PA. 
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/cab082a2b3>Learn 
>more about the topics, speakers, and breakout sessions, including a 
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/a8421a6abf>Bookshare 
>session for parents!
>
>Follow us Facebook and Twitter
>
>You can also keep up with the latest and greatest about Bookshare on:
>
>facebook icon
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/e5ec8707f8/ref=ts> 
>Facebook
>
>twitter icon
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/76362407de> Twitter
>
>and 
><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/80650c5887/uid=Bookshare>accessible 
>Twitter!
>
>
>----------
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>message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on 
>the following link: 
><http://cts.vresp.com/u?5deebe2642/f90095b4af/mlpftw>Unsubscribe
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>here to forward this email to a friend
>Benetech480 California Ave., Suite 201Palo Alto, California 94306US
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><http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html>Read the 
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From thea at doodledoo.com  Thu Feb 25 15:47:04 2010
From: thea at doodledoo.com (Thea Eaton)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:47:04 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <CACDEF7F60DD4FAF8D400D3BF58BAFB0@JkTC4D1>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>	<8936211B5AD34CECBE85396EF6D55A5B@7PYZPJ1>
	<CACDEF7F60DD4FAF8D400D3BF58BAFB0@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <004f01cab631$cb00f210$6102d630$@com>

JAWS works with Flash content very well, it will go into the movie and read
out any text that is already there. But buttons, movieclips, and animations
need to be tagged just like in HTML. If this is not done, then JAWS will
read them out as 'button' without any alt text. In fact, with the proper
tags, Flash content can be made more accessible than HTML content and more
user friendly.

And most educational content on the web is now being made accessible to
screen readers, so if you are looking for the complete package for a
student, then a PC with JAWS or Window Eyes is the way to go. If you are
using a Mac Book Pro, with the limited Voice Over screen reader, then
all-flash sites like this one for example:
http://www.chicagoofficeoftourism.org/postcard/ will be completely
inaccessible and you will miss out on a lot of content.

I know that Apple's products are very popular right now, but in the past
they have not done much for accessibility or put as much of an emphasis on
accessibility as Microsoft has. This is why we support Microsoft products,
and not Apple products, until they become more inclusive. Steve Jobs has
expressly stated that Flash will not be supported on the iPad either,
ignoring the fact that educational publishers are starting to use Flash for
all their educational content, eBooks, enrichment activities, language
vocabulary activities, etc.. (I know this because we are helping them build
them). I suspect that under pressure they will make changes in the future,
but until then I would not get a Mac Book Pro.

Thea Eaton
DoodleDoo
www.doodledoo.com   
Where early birds learn.
1-888-42 DOODLE


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:30 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

 The flash players ar not tagged properly and therefore do not interface
with jfw well at all.That  is my experience too.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:14 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

Um, I don't know all of the spacifics, but either you are wrong about JFW 
being able to deal with flash, you are probably right though, or, the vast 
majority of flash out there is not propperly tagged, which is most likely 
the case, because my very current version of windows and JFW gets it's butt 
kicked by flash every single day.  Fortunately, Mac is working on fixing 
voice over, which is great because Macs really can be a neat asset.  A 
couple of people have mentioned the technology center through the NFB's 
institute, and I think, when I am ready to purchase my next computer, that I

will give them a call, instead of relying on our local adaptive tech people 
at ABVI, because, they seem to know much better what they are about, and I 
am really intrested in getting info on Macs as well as on what is coming 
down the pipeline for Macs and windows computers in the future.  I checked 
with my friend, and she said that what her computer was doing better than 
mine, that I kept needing her assistance with was PDFs, as Mac's voice over 
can handel them better than JFW, which can work with them, but not nearly as

well and as quickly as a Mac.  So, flash?  Windows 1, Macs zip, but PDF? 
Macs 1, windows 0.25.  lol  I think there's always going to be things that 
each system can do better than the other, a balance of pros and cons, 
because of people's different needs and varying preferences.  Have a nice 
day all.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal, as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for 
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access 
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand in 
> hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their 
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash based. 
> All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear 
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My 
> son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to 
> check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check 
> with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve 
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal 
>> do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting 
>> to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading 
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
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From mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 25 20:11:07 2010
From: mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com (Mindy Lipsey)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:11:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] wrestling
In-Reply-To: <auto-000141335631@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <973430.92314.qm@web113604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

The local rec leagues will accomodate a blind wrestler.? And they don't care if the kid is homeschooled either.?? I would try there rather than the public school team.

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:


From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] wrestling
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 10:07 PM


I can't address the home schooling thing, as I know nothing about it.? I wrestled in a public high school, I was the only blind guy on the team -- in fact, the coach recruited me.? While there might be barriers, I don't think you need to limit your thoughts to a school for the blind.

As others have pointed out, wrestling is pretty physical and touch-oriented, and lots of blind persons have done it over the years.? One way to learn is that generally the coach has to demonstrate moves on somebody.? If he uses the blind guy, then the blind guy knows how to do stuff first hand.

Dave

At 11:12 AM 2/23/2010, you wrote:
> At some point I might try to get Jeremy into wrestling, but it will be difficult, because A. the closest school for the blind is a joke, and I wouldn't send my dog there, let alone my son.? I know there are better schools for the blind out there, but even if we lived near one, I don't know if they would let him compete and participate, since we will be homeschooling him.? B. Getting a coach in a public school to accomidate a blind child or a homeschooler admited to the school for extraciricular activities only, is not an easy thing, put the two together, and it could get quite difficult indeed.? I really want to get him into nice mainstreamed sports like horseback riding, gymnastics, swimming, wrestling, etc, that require little adaptation and are not spacific teams for blind children. Therefore, although, I won't refuse to let him play something like beep baseball or goalball, I will make sure that he knows what real baseball and football and
 soccer are like and I will encourage him to also play a sport on a sighted team.? I always hated playing goal ball myself, for two reasons.? 1.? They never let anyone win.? No matter how many goals our team scored, they would never say that we won, that we beat the other team, and it drove me crazy.? And we are not talking about seven year olds.? We were fifteen.? In one game we made 28 goals and the other team made three.? I congradulated my team mates saying, we won.? We kicked butt, good job team, I was the unofficial team captain, and the organizers went nuts on me saying that there are no winners or losers.? I bluntly informed them, that the other team were losers, this time, and that we were winners, that we didn't think less of the other players, but that saying that we had not won would be a lie.? I really got going, saying that it was assanine to never let any team claim their well won victory, that that was a defeatest and almost
 communist view, and the rest of my team went nuts with me and we all walked off and they couldn't get together games anymore.? and 2.? Whenever people would see me playing a highly adapted or specialized sport, they would ask if I were going to be in the special olimpics.? This drives me absolutely insane, as, although there are official competition games for blind people, deaf people, those in wheelchairs, etc, the special olimpics is a seperate thing, and is for people with MR, not simply people who are blind, deaf, etc.? I would always tell ignorant people off, get in their faces if need be, set them strait nicely when possible, but, I knew that for every ten people that I explained all of this to, there were probably a hundred who saw me playing beep baseball and just walked away, making assumptions about me and my blind teammates.? Long story short?? Any team Jeremy plays on, blind or sighted must be a truly competetive team, the coach must
 not give him extra privilages or praise when he hasn't earned it, and he must give him equal play time and opertunities to the other players.? I had never really considered wrestling before, but I think it might be right up Jeremy's alley when he gets older, as he is a very physical little guy, has relatively strong bodily kenesthetic intelligence and would probably enjoy being part of a team, he is a people person.? Thanks for starting this thread, it has given me some fun new ideas.? Also, it would probably really apeal to Jeremy's father, since he is a United States Marine and he had a lot of fun with me, when we took a personal defense class together for our PE requirement in college.? Have a nice day all.


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From albert at myblindspot.org  Thu Feb 25 20:53:35 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:53:35 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC>
	<00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>
Message-ID: <C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>

In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and mitigate
in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our community at a
needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law suit or a
screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and intra net
access needs. 

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Thea Eaton
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal, as long
as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for accessibility. 

Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access Flash.
Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will have
Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their online
textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand in hand
with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their assessments
online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash based. All
these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because you will
only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a large
portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.

Thea Eaton
DoodleDoo
www.doodledoo.com   
Where early birds learn.
1-888-42 DOODLE


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sally Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear comments

like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My son

is past the Cartoon Network stage.

When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not 
accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I am 
sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to check

with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on 
usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check with 
the student division is a good one too.

Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an 
academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve accessibility, 
I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.

Sally Thomas


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash 
> content.
> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal do
> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting to
> use a screen reader to access the web.
>
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support 
> Flash.
>
> Sally Thomas
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>> Apple's
>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>> compatible
>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash 
>> content
>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has an
>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from 
>> it
>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>> best
>>
>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use. 
>> Since
>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading software,
>> it
>>
>> might be a good choice.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
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>
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>> om
>>
>>
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>
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> om
>
>
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 26 04:28:56 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:28:56 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Last post of mine on Macs, I promise
Message-ID: <50EC300D79514654AF385FB4D83D4CC8@7PYZPJ1>

Ok, I bow to the wisdom of my friend Amanda, because she was a media major, had her own radeo show for a while, is better than I am with Macs, Windows, etc, and so she is way more qualified than me to offer up an opinion.  Just to clarify, I never told her the names of anyone on the list, and did not show her any emails from the list whatsoever,  I just told her some of the very most basic arguements for and against that I was hearing, and she rose to the task beautifully, giving a much more informed opinion and information than I could ever do on this subject.  I did copy and paste the link, and only the link that someone shared with us, and she and I both tried accessing it, so that is what she is refering to at the beginning.  I am glad this discussion got started though, as I have never really given it that much thought, and as she and I have so much else to talk about, we have never really had an indepth conversation about Macs before.  So, here are some of the things she told me that I found interesting and enlightening and never knew before, in her words.  So, she knows none of you and she is just generally discussing her experience with aApple and Microsoft, so, please, don't anyone take it as a personal atack, ok?  Accademic discussions and happy vibes to all.  Here we go.

Unfortunately, all I see on that page are two links.  So, there is a point to some of the pros and cons you mentioned.    Except I pretty much disagree with everything else that you told me is being expressed.

Firstly, I don't believe that MS really cares all that much about accessability.  Why is Narrator, the built-in "screenreader" in Windows barely functional while VoiceOver allows me to access any part of my computer (including initial OS install and setup) as soon as I take it out of the box?  True, Apple hasn't been especially good with accessibility in the past, but I don't see Microsoft building native accessibility into their new Windows Phone 7 platform.  A few years ago, we thought we'd never have access to touchscreen devices.  But now I can use an iPhone or iPod Touch with no additional clunky software that only works some of the time.  Also, back in the day, nearly twenty years ago now, the first computer I ever used was an Apple II GS.  Because at the time, Windows 3.1 or DOS or whatever Microsoft was doing at the time was not kid friendly at all.  But with an Echo external Synthesizer and software produced by APH, I learned to play games, to type, and the basic ins and outs of a computer on, oh my gosh, an Apple.

Secondly, Adobe is the company who makes Flash.  Adobe has been notoriously bad when it comes to accessibility.  They also make a lot of desktop publishing and media software like indesign, photoshop, Audition, Etc.  These products aren't accessibile on either platform right now, and I don't see Adobe making them so anytime soon.  I used to study media.  I was an audio engineer.  The school I was attending at the time taught students to edit on Macs using ProTools.  ProTools is the industry standard as far as sound production goes.  It's made by Digidesign, who was bought out by, guess who? Adobe.  I eventually was forced to leave my media arts program in part due to Adobe's refusal to make their products accessible.

Apple has said that the iPad won't support Flash because Flash is becoming bloated, outdated and useless.  Adobe refuses to work with Apple on implementing Flash in its iPhone OS, so Apple can't exactly make a product it doesn't control accessible, especially if the software commpany responsible won't help.

Would I buy a Macbook Pro specifically for my blind young child?  No, probably not.   But if the kid's mom or dad has a Macbook and the kid wants to play games, there's no reason why a parent couldn't help out the kid.  Young children shouldn't have unsupervised computer time anyway, as far as I'm concerned.  Besides, if the child has some usable vision, as most blind people do, the whole point becomees moot anyway.  The child won't be solely relying on the screenreader anyway, so VO reading the flash content doesn't necessarily matter.

Would it be nice if my computer's OS supported Flash?  Sure it would be.  But is Flash a dealbreaker?  Not as far as I'm concerned.  The internet is full of so many great sites for kids, and not all of them have Flash content.

Okay. Getting off my soapbox now.
-Amanda

kWhat was interesting to me, this is Heather again, were the moral implications of what she told me.  There are some brands of clothing, food, body care products, etc that I won't buy for ethical reasons, even though the products are ok, not amazing, but better than others in some aspects and worse in others, a mixed bag, because of their business practices, treatment of the environment, lack of comittment to the consumer, etc.

From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 26 04:37:23 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:37:23 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>	<8936211B5AD34CECBE85396EF6D55A5B@7PYZPJ1><CACDEF7F60DD4FAF8D400D3BF58BAFB0@JkTC4D1>
	<004f01cab631$cb00f210$6102d630$@com>
Message-ID: <1FCBEF45B8AA4EB2BF40024958263DEA@7PYZPJ1>

Ok, two things.  A.  This site is awsum.  It was very accessible, and it 
rocked.  I really enjoyed it.  B.  This site is highly abnormal, 
non-normative on the internet.  I go all over the place and with the 
exception of sites designed for the blind such as NFB, ACB, the zone bbs, 
and some guide dog and school for the blind sites, I have never ever come 
across a site like this.  This, unfortunately, because it is a really neat 
site, is the exception not the rule.  It is encouraging though to see that 
steps are being taken on the internet to make sites accessible that are not 
blindness spacific.  Thanks for sharing this web site.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> JAWS works with Flash content very well, it will go into the movie and 
> read
> out any text that is already there. But buttons, movieclips, and 
> animations
> need to be tagged just like in HTML. If this is not done, then JAWS will
> read them out as 'button' without any alt text. In fact, with the proper
> tags, Flash content can be made more accessible than HTML content and more
> user friendly.
>
> And most educational content on the web is now being made accessible to
> screen readers, so if you are looking for the complete package for a
> student, then a PC with JAWS or Window Eyes is the way to go. If you are
> using a Mac Book Pro, with the limited Voice Over screen reader, then
> all-flash sites like this one for example:
> http://www.chicagoofficeoftourism.org/postcard/ will be completely
> inaccessible and you will miss out on a lot of content.
>
> I know that Apple's products are very popular right now, but in the past
> they have not done much for accessibility or put as much of an emphasis on
> accessibility as Microsoft has. This is why we support Microsoft products,
> and not Apple products, until they become more inclusive. Steve Jobs has
> expressly stated that Flash will not be supported on the iPad either,
> ignoring the fact that educational publishers are starting to use Flash 
> for
> all their educational content, eBooks, enrichment activities, language
> vocabulary activities, etc.. (I know this because we are helping them 
> build
> them). I suspect that under pressure they will make changes in the future,
> but until then I would not get a Mac Book Pro.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Albert J Rizzi
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:30 AM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> The flash players ar not tagged properly and therefore do not interface
> with jfw well at all.That  is my experience too.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:14 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Um, I don't know all of the spacifics, but either you are wrong about JFW
> being able to deal with flash, you are probably right though, or, the vast
> majority of flash out there is not propperly tagged, which is most likely
> the case, because my very current version of windows and JFW gets it's 
> butt
> kicked by flash every single day.  Fortunately, Mac is working on fixing
> voice over, which is great because Macs really can be a neat asset.  A
> couple of people have mentioned the technology center through the NFB's
> institute, and I think, when I am ready to purchase my next computer, that 
> I
>
> will give them a call, instead of relying on our local adaptive tech 
> people
> at ABVI, because, they seem to know much better what they are about, and I
> am really intrested in getting info on Macs as well as on what is coming
> down the pipeline for Macs and windows computers in the future.  I checked
> with my friend, and she said that what her computer was doing better than
> mine, that I kept needing her assistance with was PDFs, as Mac's voice 
> over
> can handel them better than JFW, which can work with them, but not nearly 
> as
>
> well and as quickly as a Mac.  So, flash?  Windows 1, Macs zip, but PDF?
> Macs 1, windows 0.25.  lol  I think there's always going to be things that
> each system can do better than the other, a balance of pros and cons,
> because of people's different needs and varying preferences.  Have a nice
> day all.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal, as 
>> long
>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>> accessibility.
>>
>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>> Flash.
>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will have
>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their online
>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand in
>> hand
>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>> assessments
>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash based.
>> All
>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because you 
>> will
>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a large
>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
>> comments
>>
>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My
>> son
>>
>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>
>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I 
>> am
>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to
>> check
>>
>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check
>> with
>> the student division is a good one too.
>>
>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an
>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>> accessibility,
>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>> content.
>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal
>>> do
>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting
>>> to
>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>>> Flash.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>> Apple's
>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>> compatible
>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>> content
>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has 
>>>> an
>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from
>>>> it
>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>> Since
>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>> software,
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochest
> er.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
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> om
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>
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> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Fri Feb 26 04:40:23 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:40:23 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Resources for Homeschoolers
References: <543858.9673.qm@smtp103.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <06C64272AA164631B2673BEB7B24E1DE@7PYZPJ1>

Thank you so much.  This is going to come in extremely handy.  I get RFBand 
D and NLS books, but this has a lot more pleasure reading and non-mainstream 
informational books as well.  I am going to be filling up my stream all 
night with all of these neat titles.  Thanks again.  I really appreciate 
this site.  I coppied all of the rellivant info and posted it to a blind 
parenting list and a homeschooling list that has a few families with blind 
kids on it, with all features that would identify you or this list removed 
of course.  Have a great evening.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carol Castellano" <carol_castellano at verizon.net>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:18 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Resources for Homeschoolers


>
>>I received the following information from Bookshare.
>
> Carol
>
> Carol Castellano, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 973-377-0976
> carol_castellano at verizon.net
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>>[]
>>
>>
>>
>>Parents In The Know!
>>Bookshare Parent Newsletter - February 2010
>>
>>
>>
>>Resources for Homeschoolers
>>
>>An estimated 1.5 million students are homeschooled in the United States 
>>according to the 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/a7a341ed17>National 
>>Household Education Surveys Program. The number of children homeschooled 
>>has increased since 1999, and there are a number of reasons that influence 
>>this decision. For 4 percent of these parents (or guardians) who choose 
>>this method, it is because a child has special needs.
>>
>>It is a challenge to get resources. Parents have shared with us that it is 
>>very difficult to get accessible books and reading tools for children with 
>>disabilities. This can be particularly true for homeschoolers who do not 
>>have everyday access to special education teachers and public school 
>>resources. Furthermore, processes for special needs testing and for 
>>getting accommodations vary from state to state.
>>
>>Bookshare can help. Bookshare's online library is available worldwide and 
>>can be accessed 24 hours a day. The collection has over 68,000 digital 
>>books and tools that make reading possible for students who previously 
>>found it difficult or impossible to read traditional print. Bookshare's 
>>books are downloaded to computers and accessed with software or devices 
>>that allow students to listen to books, hear and see words at the same 
>>time (multi-modal), and use advanced study tools.
>>
>>Homeschoolers can qualify! Bookshare memberships are available for free to 
>>all U.S. students with 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/aad23275c3>qualified 
>>print disabilities such as blindness, low-vision, physical disabilities 
>>and severe learning disabilities. Qualified homeschoolers can join with an 
>>individual membership that gives them the ability to download, read, and 
>>study with the vast majority of Bookshare books and free reading software.
>>
>>How about textbooks? Bookshare's library carries K-12 textbooks that come 
>>from the 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/0c808fc1af>National 
>>Instructional Materials Access Center (NIMAC). These textbooks can be 
>>downloaded only by teachers at public schools for Bookshare student 
>>members with IEPs. Where does this leave homeschoolers? Depending upon 
>>your state and the district in which you live, homeschool students may 
>>still have options if you can work with your local school.
>>
>>Want to learn more? Join Bookshare on Tuesday, March 9 (5pm ET, 4pm CT, 
>>3pm MT, 2pm PT) for a webinar solely dedicated to homeschoolers. We will 
>>discuss:
>>    * Who qualifies for Bookshare?
>>    * How can homeschoolers sign up their children?
>>    * How can Bookshare be used at home?
>>    * How can textbooks be accessed?
>>    * 
>> <http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/09910930e0>Sign 
>> up today!
>>
>>----------
>>As always, we're interested in your thoughts and comments. Contact us at: 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/a16ad4e881>http://www.bookshare.org/contactUs
>>
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/2ef175463a>
>>This project is supported by the U.S. Department of Education,
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/2ef175463a> Mario 
>>Oliveros, Partner Program Manager
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/9025c7542a>
>>Bookshare
>>
>>mom and son reading
>>
>>
>>Partners Making a Difference
>>
>>logo of Peal Center
>>
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/88792f16fe>The 
>>PEAL Center is a parent organization that provides individual assistance, 
>>information on resources, and training to help parents of children with 
>>disabilities and professionals in Central and Western Pennsylvania.
>>
>>The PEAL Center will hold its Fourth Annual Inclusive Education Conference 
>>on March 16 and 17 at the Four Points Sheraton in Mars, PA. 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/cab082a2b3>Learn 
>>more about the topics, speakers, and breakout sessions, including a 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/a8421a6abf>Bookshare 
>>session for parents!
>>
>>Follow us Facebook and Twitter
>>
>>You can also keep up with the latest and greatest about Bookshare on:
>>
>>facebook icon
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/e5ec8707f8/ref=ts> 
>>Facebook
>>
>>twitter icon
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/76362407de> 
>>Twitter
>>
>>and 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/5deebe2642/f90095b4af/80650c5887/uid=Bookshare>accessible 
>>Twitter!
>>
>>
>>----------
>>If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this 
>>message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the 
>>following link: 
>><http://cts.vresp.com/u?5deebe2642/f90095b4af/mlpftw>Unsubscribe
>>
>>----------
>><http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=5deebe2642&lid=1240007325&ldh=f90095b4af>Click 
>>here to forward this email to a friend
>>Benetech480 California Ave., Suite 201Palo Alto, California 94306US
>>
>><http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html>Read the 
>>VerticalResponse marketing policy.
>><http://www.verticalresponse.com/landing/non-profits/?np/5deebe2642>
>>Non-Profits Email Free with VerticalResponse!
>>
>>[]
>>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craney07%40rochester.rr.com 




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Fri Feb 26 05:44:02 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:44:02 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC>
	<00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>
	<C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>

The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.

Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm

If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of  
the NFB case and the settlement.

Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply  
but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or  
really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  
company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  
many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with  
little budget or very often for no money.

Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if  
they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off- 
line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would  
hope to achieve.

On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software  
improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I  
upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like  
to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text  
descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think  
that better educated web designers and improved software are the most  
probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.

Richard




On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and  
> mitigate
> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our  
> community at a
> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law  
> suit or a
> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and  
> intra net
> access needs.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,  
> as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for  
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access  
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will  
> have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their  
> online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand  
> in hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their  
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash  
> based. All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because  
> you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a  
> large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear  
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really  
> curious.  My son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is  
> designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going  
> to check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to  
> check with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as  
> an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve  
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and  
>> Hal do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for  
>> children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible  
>> on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are  
>> wanting to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son  
>>> has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email  
>>> from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook  
>>> is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the  
>>> built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading  
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
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> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org




From albert at myblindspot.org  Fri Feb 26 14:04:59 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:04:59 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
	<2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1>

I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind open to
considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided one has
the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design when
crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our community of
blind students and adults will forever be at a critical disadvantage  and
will continue to be unemployed  or under employed. It is not just the web
sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need to be
accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates amongst the
blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My company
and I have partnered  with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for all a
reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size business  to
make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how expensive
that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or credit once a
business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to these
laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to make
sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the most
compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate  avoidance of adherence.
it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they get on
it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is not in
comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of tax
revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who can work.
Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with paralysis and
cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
accessibility and they will supply it.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Holloway
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.

Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm

If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of  
the NFB case and the settlement.

Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply  
but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or  
really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  
company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  
many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with  
little budget or very often for no money.

Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if  
they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off- 
line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would  
hope to achieve.

On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software  
improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I  
upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like  
to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text  
descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think  
that better educated web designers and improved software are the most  
probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.

Richard




On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and  
> mitigate
> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our  
> community at a
> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law  
> suit or a
> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and  
> intra net
> access needs.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,  
> as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for  
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access  
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will  
> have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their  
> online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand  
> in hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their  
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash  
> based. All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because  
> you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a  
> large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear  
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really  
> curious.  My son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is  
> designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going  
> to check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to  
> check with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as  
> an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve  
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and  
>> Hal do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for  
>> children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible  
>> on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are  
>> wanting to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son  
>>> has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email  
>>> from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook  
>>> is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the  
>>> built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading  
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
org


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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ot.org




From albert at myblindspot.org  Fri Feb 26 14:07:12 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:07:12 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
	<2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <A2F1801B16604C6587D37C8B8FD96C48@JkTC4D1>

FYI there are trends happening today which are opening the eyes of techies
to the importance of assistive technologies.  Red on!
According to the AP, efforts are underway to make the Web more accessible. 
 

What if you could not use a traditional keyboard or mouse interface? Have
you ever been frustrated by the distorted letters a webpage uses to prove
you are human, as if you could be a chicken typing the keys. Well movement
is underway to help make the Web available to people with severe
disabilities.

 Websites of today are like the entry way to a business, and there is a big
market in making the business open to as many people as possible.

Studies tell  us that there are about sixty million of us with some kind of
disability.

The World Wide Web Consortium, which develops standards for the Web, has
issued guidelines for designers to help them create more accessible sites.
They include providing text labels for images, captions on audio and video
and making keyboard shortcuts for people who can't use a mouse.

"When the Web is designed well, it is so enabling. It allows people to
contribute on an equal plane," said Shawn Lawton Henry, outreach coordinator
at the consortium's Web Accessibility Initiative.

While most federal government Web sites are required by law to be
accessible, companies have no legal obligation to incorporate the features.

But Jim Thatcher, who developed the IBM screen reader, which blind people
use to read the Internet, said the threat of civil rights lawsuits has
motivated some companies.

Last year, Target Corp. agreed to pay $6 million in damages to plaintiffs in
a California class action lawsuit who were unable to use its Web site.
Thatcher, who was an expert witness during the trial, said there were many
links on Target's site that were unintelligible to screen-reading software.
He said there have been improvements since the settlement with the National
Federation of the Blind.

Apple Inc. also reached an agreement with the state of Massachusetts to
alter the program iTunes to make it accessible to the blind.

"No question that companies are seeking more help since those cases," said
Thatcher, who is working with Amazon.com on its site.

Apple's iPhone has been praised for its accessibility features, including
screen reader audio that comes standard on the machine.

Knowing how disabled people use the Web is the first step to making the Web
accessible, experts say.
At Yahoo Inc. headquarters in Silicon Valley, an "Accessibility Lab" allows
programmers and developers to try various assistive technology software and
hardware.

The lab's directors, Victor Tsaran and Alan Brightman, show visitors how
screen reader software works, and make them try Braille keyboards, a
head-controlled mouse, joy sticks, trackballs and other tools employed by
disabled users to navigate the Web.

"Our goal is to make people feel more at ease with disabilities," explains
Tsaran, who is blind. "And our task is to make technology work for people.
Accessibility is a big, big, big, big part of that."
The lab, which opened almost two years ago, is available to Yahoo employees
as well as developers from other companies.
"Our feeling is everything should be as accessible as possible," Brightman
said. "Let's not compete over whether a disabled person can use your site."

Guy Thomas, of San Leandro, who has little arm movement because of a
neuromuscular disability, plays a lot of games on the Internet, using a
trackball and mouse stick. He said there are some games that have made
adaptations for otherwise challenging moves, such as hitting one key while
holding down another. Those improvements, he said, are essential to letting
him enjoy the new games on the Web.

"When you're playing a game, it's one of the few places you don't have to be
disabled. You're just a guy, playing a game," he said. "But if you run into
an obstacle, it's the same as if I was on a basketball court unable to throw
a ball to the hoop."

Experts say accessibility features make a better Internet for all.
For example, the ability to zoom in on a map or magnify font was conceived
for people with low vision but it's helpful for anyone.

"It's like sidewalks. You build a wheelchair ramp and not only is it a
better sidewalk for those users, but for strollers, luggage, delivery
people," Brightman said.

Yahoo recently made upgrades to its home page to add labels that make it
easier for people using screen readers to jump around the page. The Internet
company also has added audio CAPTCHA image verifications for users who can
neither see nor comprehend the distorted words.

Google Inc., whose programmers have used the Yahoo lab, recently introduced
automatic machine-generated captions for videos on its YouTube site to make
them accessible to the deaf and hearing-impaired. It's all about being
aware," said Henry of the Web consortium. "Often if you don't know anyone
with a disability,




Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Holloway
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.

Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm

If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of  
the NFB case and the settlement.

Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply  
but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or  
really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  
company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  
many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with  
little budget or very often for no money.

Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if  
they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off- 
line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would  
hope to achieve.

On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software  
improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I  
upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like  
to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text  
descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think  
that better educated web designers and improved software are the most  
probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.

Richard




On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and  
> mitigate
> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our  
> community at a
> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law  
> suit or a
> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and  
> intra net
> access needs.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,  
> as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for  
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access  
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will  
> have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their  
> online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand  
> in hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their  
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash  
> based. All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because  
> you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a  
> large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear  
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really  
> curious.  My son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is  
> designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going  
> to check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to  
> check with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as  
> an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve  
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and  
>> Hal do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for  
>> children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible  
>> on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are  
>> wanting to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son  
>>> has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email  
>>> from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook  
>>> is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the  
>>> built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading  
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
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>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>> blindkid:
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>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From thea at doodledoo.com  Fri Feb 26 15:12:04 2010
From: thea at doodledoo.com (Thea Eaton)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:12:04 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <1FCBEF45B8AA4EB2BF40024958263DEA@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com>	<8936211B5AD34CECBE85396EF6D55A5B@7PYZPJ1><CACDEF7F60DD4FAF8D400D3BF58BAFB0@JkTC4D1>	<004f01cab631$cb00f210$6102d630$@com>
	<1FCBEF45B8AA4EB2BF40024958263DEA@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <002801cab6f6$0f1d50f0$2d57f2d0$@com>

Thanks! Just spread the word about Flash and accessibility. It is actually
not very hard to make Flash accessible like this, and we are trying to
educate other developers as much as we can. But luckily we are seeing more
and more people come to us, like Cartoon Network, Harcourt and Pearson and
others, to tag their Flash content. It will be a short matter of time before
Flash catches up with HTML in accessibility.

Thea Eaton
DoodleDoo
www.doodledoo.com   
Where early birds learn.
1-888-42 DOODLE

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:37 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

Ok, two things.  A.  This site is awsum.  It was very accessible, and it 
rocked.  I really enjoyed it.  B.  This site is highly abnormal, 
non-normative on the internet.  I go all over the place and with the 
exception of sites designed for the blind such as NFB, ACB, the zone bbs, 
and some guide dog and school for the blind sites, I have never ever come 
across a site like this.  This, unfortunately, because it is a really neat 
site, is the exception not the rule.  It is encouraging though to see that 
steps are being taken on the internet to make sites accessible that are not 
blindness spacific.  Thanks for sharing this web site.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> JAWS works with Flash content very well, it will go into the movie and 
> read
> out any text that is already there. But buttons, movieclips, and 
> animations
> need to be tagged just like in HTML. If this is not done, then JAWS will
> read them out as 'button' without any alt text. In fact, with the proper
> tags, Flash content can be made more accessible than HTML content and more
> user friendly.
>
> And most educational content on the web is now being made accessible to
> screen readers, so if you are looking for the complete package for a
> student, then a PC with JAWS or Window Eyes is the way to go. If you are
> using a Mac Book Pro, with the limited Voice Over screen reader, then
> all-flash sites like this one for example:
> http://www.chicagoofficeoftourism.org/postcard/ will be completely
> inaccessible and you will miss out on a lot of content.
>
> I know that Apple's products are very popular right now, but in the past
> they have not done much for accessibility or put as much of an emphasis on
> accessibility as Microsoft has. This is why we support Microsoft products,
> and not Apple products, until they become more inclusive. Steve Jobs has
> expressly stated that Flash will not be supported on the iPad either,
> ignoring the fact that educational publishers are starting to use Flash 
> for
> all their educational content, eBooks, enrichment activities, language
> vocabulary activities, etc.. (I know this because we are helping them 
> build
> them). I suspect that under pressure they will make changes in the future,
> but until then I would not get a Mac Book Pro.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Albert J Rizzi
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:30 AM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> The flash players ar not tagged properly and therefore do not interface
> with jfw well at all.That  is my experience too.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:14 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Um, I don't know all of the spacifics, but either you are wrong about JFW
> being able to deal with flash, you are probably right though, or, the vast
> majority of flash out there is not propperly tagged, which is most likely
> the case, because my very current version of windows and JFW gets it's 
> butt
> kicked by flash every single day.  Fortunately, Mac is working on fixing
> voice over, which is great because Macs really can be a neat asset.  A
> couple of people have mentioned the technology center through the NFB's
> institute, and I think, when I am ready to purchase my next computer, that

> I
>
> will give them a call, instead of relying on our local adaptive tech 
> people
> at ABVI, because, they seem to know much better what they are about, and I
> am really intrested in getting info on Macs as well as on what is coming
> down the pipeline for Macs and windows computers in the future.  I checked
> with my friend, and she said that what her computer was doing better than
> mine, that I kept needing her assistance with was PDFs, as Mac's voice 
> over
> can handel them better than JFW, which can work with them, but not nearly 
> as
>
> well and as quickly as a Mac.  So, flash?  Windows 1, Macs zip, but PDF?
> Macs 1, windows 0.25.  lol  I think there's always going to be things that
> each system can do better than the other, a balance of pros and cons,
> because of people's different needs and varying preferences.  Have a nice
> day all.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal, as 
>> long
>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>> accessibility.
>>
>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>> Flash.
>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will have
>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their online
>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand in
>> hand
>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>> assessments
>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash based.
>> All
>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because you 
>> will
>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a large
>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
>> comments
>>
>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really curious.  My
>> son
>>
>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>
>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is designed.  I 
>> am
>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going to
>> check
>>
>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to check
>> with
>> the student division is a good one too.
>>
>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as an
>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>> accessibility,
>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>> content.
>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal
>>> do
>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for children,
>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible on a
>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are wanting
>>> to
>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>>> Flash.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>> Apple's
>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>> compatible
>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>> content
>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son has 
>>>> an
>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email from
>>>> it
>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook is the
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the built in
>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>> Since
>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>> software,
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
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>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>
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>> om
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
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> er.rr.com
>
>
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From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Fri Feb 26 14:36:11 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:36:11 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] wrestling
In-Reply-To: <973430.92314.qm@web113604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000018470783@mailback2.g2host.com>

I am not aware of local rec leagues dealing much with amatur wrestling as it applies to high school nor am I aware of wrestling as part of rec league activities at least 
in this area.  Generally, wrestling is not as popular as is basketball, for example.  Am I not understanding your suggestion?  I think in this case there has to at least be 
an attempt to initiate communication with the school district.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:11:07 -0800 (PST), Mindy Lipsey wrote:

>The local rec leagues will accomodate a blind wrestler.  And they don't care if the kid is homeschooled either.   I would try there rather than the public school team.

>--- On Wed, 2/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:


>From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] wrestling
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 10:07 PM


>I can't address the home schooling thing, as I know nothing about it.  I wrestled in a public high school, I was the only blind guy on the team -- in fact, the coach 
recruited me.  While there might be barriers, I don't think you need to limit your thoughts to a school for the blind.

>As others have pointed out, wrestling is pretty physical and touch-oriented, and lots of blind persons have done it over the years.  One way to learn is that generally 
the coach has to demonstrate moves on somebody.  If he uses the blind guy, then the blind guy knows how to do stuff first hand.

>Dave

>At 11:12 AM 2/23/2010, you wrote:
>> At some point I might try to get Jeremy into wrestling, but it will be difficult, because A. the closest school for the blind is a joke, and I wouldn't send my dog there, 
let alone my son.  I know there are better schools for the blind out there, but even if we lived near one, I don't know if they would let him compete and participate, 
since we will be homeschooling him.  B. Getting a coach in a public school to accomidate a blind child or a homeschooler admited to the school for extraciricular 
activities only, is not an easy thing, put the two together, and it could get quite difficult indeed.  I really want to get him into nice mainstreamed sports like horseback 
riding, gymnastics, swimming, wrestling, etc, that require little adaptation and are not spacific teams for blind children. Therefore, although, I won't refuse to let him 
play something like beep baseball or goalball, I will make sure that he knows what real baseball and football and
> soccer are like and I will encourage him to also play a sport on a sighted team.  I always hated playing goal ball myself, for two reasons.  1.  They never let anyone 
win.  No matter how many goals our team scored, they would never say that we won, that we beat the other team, and it drove me crazy.  And we are not talking 
about seven year olds.  We were fifteen.  In one game we made 28 goals and the other team made three.  I congradulated my team mates saying, we won.  We 
kicked butt, good job team, I was the unofficial team captain, and the organizers went nuts on me saying that there are no winners or losers.  I bluntly informed them, 
that the other team were losers, this time, and that we were winners, that we didn't think less of the other players, but that saying that we had not won would be a lie.  
I really got going, saying that it was assanine to never let any team claim their well won victory, that that was a defeatest and almost
> communist view, and the rest of my team went nuts with me and we all walked off and they couldn't get together games anymore.  and 2.  Whenever people 
would see me playing a highly adapted or specialized sport, they would ask if I were going to be in the special olimpics.  This drives me absolutely insane, as, 
although there are official competition games for blind people, deaf people, those in wheelchairs, etc, the special olimpics is a seperate thing, and is for people with 
MR, not simply people who are blind, deaf, etc.  I would always tell ignorant people off, get in their faces if need be, set them strait nicely when possible, but, I knew 
that for every ten people that I explained all of this to, there were probably a hundred who saw me playing beep baseball and just walked away, making assumptions 
about me and my blind teammates.  Long story short?  Any team Jeremy plays on, blind or sighted must be a truly competetive team, the coach must
> not give him extra privilages or praise when he hasn't earned it, and he must give him equal play time and opertunities to the other players.  I had never really 
considered wrestling before, but I think it might be right up Jeremy's alley when he gets older, as he is a very physical little guy, has relatively strong bodily 
kenesthetic intelligence and would probably enjoy being part of a team, he is a people person.  Thanks for starting this thread, it has given me some fun new ideas.  
Also, it would probably really apeal to Jeremy's father, since he is a United States Marine and he had a lot of fun with me, when we took a personal defense class 
together for our PE requirement in college.  Have a nice day all.


>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mindy_lipsey%40yahoo.com



>      
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







From seacknit at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 16:41:42 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:41:42 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
	<2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <0B5A7D31875D4750B432954C26FDD15A@OwnerPC>

Okay folks, I've been trying to collect information on this topic so I'll 
share what I've found so far.  Some of the information will be from outside 
sources and some will be my opinion about what I've read.  I'll try to 
distinguish between the two so you can reach your own conclusions (I know 
you will any way).

Right now Flash content can be viewed on both Windows and Apple machines 
(but not apple mobile devices).  I read a statement from
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>
> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>
> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of  the 
> NFB case and the settlement.
>
> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply  but 
> in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or  really 
> just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  company like 
> Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  many web pages are 
> setup by small groups or single individuals with  little budget or very 
> often for no money.
>
> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if 
> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off- line; 
> sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would  hope to 
> achieve.
>
> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software 
> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I 
> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like  to 
> use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text 
> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think 
> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most 
> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and 
>> mitigate
>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our  community 
>> at a
>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law  suit or 
>> a
>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and  intra 
>> net
>> access needs.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,  as 
>> long
>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for 
>> accessibility.
>>
>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access 
>> Flash.
>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will  have
>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their  online
>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand  in 
>> hand
>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their 
>> assessments
>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash  based. 
>> All
>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because  you 
>> will
>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a 
>> large
>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear 
>> comments
>>
>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really  curious.  My 
>> son
>>
>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>
>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is  designed.  I 
>> am
>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going  to 
>> check
>>
>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to  check 
>> with
>> the student division is a good one too.
>>
>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as  an
>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve 
>> accessibility,
>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>> content.
>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and  Hal 
>>> do
>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for 
>>> children,
>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible  on 
>>> a
>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are  wanting 
>>> to
>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>>> Flash.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>> Apple's
>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>> compatible
>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>> content
>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org ] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son  has 
>>>> an
>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email 
>>>> from
>>>> it
>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook  is 
>>>> the
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the  built in
>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>> Since
>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading 
>>>> software,
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
> 




From rholloway at gopbc.org  Fri Feb 26 17:32:40 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:32:40 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <0B5A7D31875D4750B432954C26FDD15A@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
	<2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
	<0B5A7D31875D4750B432954C26FDD15A@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <426A55BB-19D0-4764-83D7-26E76CE19FBF@gopbc.org>

Sally,

Unless this is a local (my machine) issue, looks like the later  
portion of your email got chopped off somehow.--

"I read a statement from" is where is seems to end.

Could you repost that?

Thanks,

Richard


On Feb 26, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Sally Thomas wrote:

> Okay folks, I've been trying to collect information on this topic so  
> I'll share what I've found so far.  Some of the information will be  
> from outside sources and some will be my opinion about what I've  
> read.  I'll try to distinguish between the two so you can reach your  
> own conclusions (I know you will any way).
>
> Right now Flash content can be viewed on both Windows and Apple  
> machines (but not apple mobile devices).  I read a statement from
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org 
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> >
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro



From seacknit at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 17:35:20 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:20 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
	<2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <76F821B240BF469F96C869DDCAC6C183@OwnerPC>

Sorry I bumped my laptop and sent the last message prematurely.

I read a statement from Kevin Lynch, the CTO of Adobe.  He says that Adobe 
is working on the Flash/MacBook issue.  Steve Jobs isn't happy with Adobe 
but the issue of Flash vs. html seems to be far from finished right now.  In 
my opinion, if Apple wants to market the iPad as an educational tool, this 
issue will need to be resolved one way or another.  There are increasing 
advances in the way html works so it is possible that either html will 
overtake Flash or maybe there will be advances in both.

I contacted the NABS group and the feedback I got was that right now neither 
Windows nor the MacBook does everything.  It appears that most people use 
Windows and a screenreader like JAWS but it doesn't appear that this is due 
to comparing the 2 but rather because the Voice Over technology on the 
MacBook has improved to the point that it is a more viable option now.  Like 
Dave Andrews said, different folks prefer different options.

I have a call into the Access Technology group at NFB.  They appear to be a 
pretty busy group because their message told me to leave my question and 
they'd get back to me within 3 business days.  If I gather any important 
information from them, I'll share it here.

So, right now there is not a definitive answer to this question.  While I do 
understand that many educational software providers are working in Flash, 
this doesn't mean that Windows is best for blind kids educational needs. 
Now I'm worried about access to things like graphs and maps.  I can just 
hear the teachers saying "he doesn't need braille, he can just listen to his 
books."

I keep wishing that there was one device that would do everything for my son 
but that is not the case now.  It appears that right now, either technology 
would work for him.  Things are changing and we'll have to see how it pans 
out.  We just need to make it clear that access to ALL the material is 
important to blind kids.

Sally Thomas

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>
> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>
> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of  the 
> NFB case and the settlement.
>
> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply  but 
> in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or  really 
> just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  company like 
> Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  many web pages are 
> setup by small groups or single individuals with  little budget or very 
> often for no money.
>
> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if 
> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off- line; 
> sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would  hope to 
> achieve.
>
> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software 
> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I 
> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like  to 
> use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text 
> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think 
> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most 
> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and 
>> mitigate
>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our  community 
>> at a
>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law  suit or 
>> a
>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and  intra 
>> net
>> access needs.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,  as 
>> long
>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for 
>> accessibility.
>>
>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access 
>> Flash.
>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will  have
>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their  online
>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand  in 
>> hand
>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their 
>> assessments
>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash  based. 
>> All
>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because  you 
>> will
>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a 
>> large
>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear 
>> comments
>>
>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really  curious.  My 
>> son
>>
>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>
>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is  designed.  I 
>> am
>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going  to 
>> check
>>
>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to  check 
>> with
>> the student division is a good one too.
>>
>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as  an
>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve 
>> accessibility,
>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>> content.
>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and  Hal 
>>> do
>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for 
>>> children,
>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible  on 
>>> a
>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are  wanting 
>>> to
>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>>> Flash.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>> Apple's
>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>> compatible
>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>> content
>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org ] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son  has 
>>>> an
>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email 
>>>> from
>>>> it
>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook  is 
>>>> the
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the  built in
>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>> Since
>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading 
>>>> software,
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
> 




From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Fri Feb 26 22:33:13 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:33:13 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <76F821B240BF469F96C869DDCAC6C183@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <auto-000021574339@mailback1.g2host.com>

Sally,

Please consider the comments on NABS-L that suggested that seeing what his school is using, both for software and hardware, is worth doing.  It may make the 
decision easier, or convince you that it doesn't matter.  Either outcome is best to know before you make a purchase.  I know the people in our access group, and I 
don't think they can tell you much more than we have without more information such as what is being used by his school and within his class, and of course, one 
must look to next year as well.  How do student's write papers, how specific is the instruction on word processing, do students work together on a document, is he 
going to take any statistics or math classes, and so forth.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:20 -0600, Sally Thomas wrote:

>Sorry I bumped my laptop and sent the last message prematurely.

>I read a statement from Kevin Lynch, the CTO of Adobe.  He says that Adobe 
>is working on the Flash/MacBook issue.  Steve Jobs isn't happy with Adobe 
>but the issue of Flash vs. html seems to be far from finished right now.  In 
>my opinion, if Apple wants to market the iPad as an educational tool, this 
>issue will need to be resolved one way or another.  There are increasing 
>advances in the way html works so it is possible that either html will 
>overtake Flash or maybe there will be advances in both.

>I contacted the NABS group and the feedback I got was that right now neither 
>Windows nor the MacBook does everything.  It appears that most people use 
>Windows and a screenreader like JAWS but it doesn't appear that this is due 
>to comparing the 2 but rather because the Voice Over technology on the 
>MacBook has improved to the point that it is a more viable option now.  Like 
>Dave Andrews said, different folks prefer different options.

>I have a call into the Access Technology group at NFB.  They appear to be a 
>pretty busy group because their message told me to leave my question and 
>they'd get back to me within 3 business days.  If I gather any important 
>information from them, I'll share it here.

>So, right now there is not a definitive answer to this question.  While I do 
>understand that many educational software providers are working in Flash, 
>this doesn't mean that Windows is best for blind kids educational needs. 
>Now I'm worried about access to things like graphs and maps.  I can just 
>hear the teachers saying "he doesn't need braille, he can just listen to his 
>books."

>I keep wishing that there was one device that would do everything for my son 
>but that is not the case now.  It appears that right now, either technology 
>would work for him.  Things are changing and we'll have to see how it pans 
>out.  We just need to make it clear that access to ALL the material is 
>important to blind kids.

>Sally Thomas

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


>> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>>
>> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>>
>> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of  the 
>> NFB case and the settlement.
>>
>> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply  but 
>> in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or  really 
>> just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  company like 
>> Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  many web pages are 
>> setup by small groups or single individuals with  little budget or very 
>> often for no money.
>>
>> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if 
>> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off- line; 
>> sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would  hope to 
>> achieve.
>>
>> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software 
>> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I 
>> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like  to 
>> use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text 
>> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think 
>> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most 
>> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and 
>>> mitigate
>>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our  community 
>>> at a
>>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
>>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law  suit or 
>>> a
>>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and  intra 
>>> net
>>> access needs.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  who 
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,  as 
>>> long
>>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for 
>>> accessibility.
>>>
>>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access 
>>> Flash.
>>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will  have
>>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their  online
>>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand  in 
>>> hand
>>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their 
>>> assessments
>>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash  based. 
>>> All
>>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because  you 
>>> will
>>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a 
>>> large
>>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear 
>>> comments
>>>
>>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really  curious.  My 
>>> son
>>>
>>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>>
>>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
>>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is  designed.  I 
>>> am
>>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going  to 
>>> check
>>>
>>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to  check 
>>> with
>>> the student division is a good one too.
>>>
>>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as  an
>>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve 
>>> accessibility,
>>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>>> content.
>>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and  Hal 
>>>> do
>>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for 
>>>> children,
>>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible  on 
>>>> a
>>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are  wanting 
>>>> to
>>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>>>> Flash.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>>> Apple's
>>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>>> compatible
>>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>>> content
>>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org ] 
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son  has 
>>>>> an
>>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email 
>>>>> from
>>>>> it
>>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook  is 
>>>>> the
>>>>> best
>>>>>
>>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the  built in
>>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>>> Since
>>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading 
>>>>> software,
>>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>>> ot.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>>> blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
>> 


>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







From rholloway at gopbc.org  Fri Feb 26 22:45:49 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:45:49 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1>
	<2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org>
	<94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <8E40364C-DB40-4357-AE6E-1EA366F2FD15@gopbc.org>

I don't want to turn this into another huge debate as it seems a bit  
beyond the scope of the question that was asked as well as outside of  
this forum's general area of discussion.

I don't think it is rhetoric to suggest that $10,000 is beyond the  
budget of a great many small companies or that there are a literally  
millions of personal and other small sites of various non-business- 
related functions which would have no reasonable chance of compliance.  
Now factor in every non-US based web site on the planet. This is just  
not simple to solve.

Going after a Target or a Wal Mart sort of a company that is being  
unreasonable makes a good deal of sense but we're never going to  
**force** everyone to comply and even if we did, the negative reaction  
towards blind people by many who had been, at the least frustrated,  
and possibly even forced to remove web sites due to non-compliance  
could be substantial, to say the least.

How about making businesses as aware as possible of the benefits of  
compliant sites and working with the likes of Adobe and other web  
design software sources to encourage every effort be made to help  
fledgling web designers produce sites that are as easy as possible for  
the physically disabled to navigate.

At least that's where I'd start.

Richard



On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind  
> open to
> considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided  
> one has
> the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design  
> when
> crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
> otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our  
> community of
> blind students and adults will forever be at a critical  
> disadvantage  and
> will continue to be unemployed  or under employed. It is not just  
> the web
> sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need  
> to be
> accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates  
> amongst the
> blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
> technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My  
> company
> and I have partnered  with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for  
> all a
> reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size  
> business  to
> make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how  
> expensive
> that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or  
> credit once a
> business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
> institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to  
> these
> laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to  
> make
> sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the  
> most
> compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
> scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
> officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate  avoidance of  
> adherence.
> it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
> concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they  
> get on
> it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is  
> not in
> comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of  
> tax
> revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who  
> can work.
> Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with  
> paralysis and
> cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
> accessibility and they will supply it.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Richard Holloway
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>
> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>
> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of
> the NFB case and the settlement.
>
> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply
> but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
> really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big
> company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that
> many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with
> little budget or very often for no money.
>
> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off-
> line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
> hope to achieve.
>
> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like
> to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
>> mitigate
>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
>> community at a
>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and  
>> the
>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law
>> suit or a
>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and
>> intra net
>> access needs.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>> who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,
>> as long
>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>> accessibility.
>>
>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>> Flash.
>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will
>> have
>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their
>> online
>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand
>> in hand
>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>> assessments
>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash
>> based. All
>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because
>> you will
>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
>> large
>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
>> comments
>>
>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
>> curious.  My son
>>
>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>
>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were  
>> not
>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is
>> designed.  I am
>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going
>> to check
>>
>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to
>> check with
>> the student division is a good one too.
>>
>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as
>> an
>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>> accessibility,
>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>> content.
>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and
>>> Hal do
>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>> children,
>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible
>>> on a
>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>>> wanting to
>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't  
>>> support
>>> Flash.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>>> children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>> Apple's
>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>> compatible
>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>> content
>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially  
>>>> children's
>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> ] On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son
>>>> has an
>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email
>>>> from
>>>> it
>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook
>>>> is the
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>>> built in
>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>> Since
>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>> software,
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
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>>>
>>
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>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
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>>>
>>
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>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> .
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From seacknit at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 13:02:56 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:56 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <auto-000021574339@mailback1.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000021574339@mailback1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <A0A01153E8164D8686E7E166722CFE5A@OwnerPC>

Thanks, Steve.  I did speak with the access technology people and had a very 
interesting conversation.  There is an article in the December 2009 Braille 
Monitor which outlines a lot of the specifics of accessibility and the 
MacBook.  I haven't had a chance to read it yet but it may appeal to the 
detail oriented folks in the group.

I do understand that it would be important to know what demands the school 
has for use of technology.  One of the things the Access Tech person told me 
was that JAWS is more sophisticated in terms of style issues in word 
processing.  That's not an issue now but could become one.

I still stand by the statement that the issue is not settled about which 
computer is best for a blind child.  Right now a Windows PC might have an 
advantage but in 2 years, who knows?  There are a lot of changes going on so 
I guess it's a matter of staying informed.  We don't need a new computer 
right now so we'll be revisiting all this in a couple of years.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


> Sally,
>
> Please consider the comments on NABS-L that suggested that seeing what his 
> school is using, both for software and hardware, is worth doing.  It may 
> make the
> decision easier, or convince you that it doesn't matter.  Either outcome 
> is best to know before you make a purchase.  I know the people in our 
> access group, and I
> don't think they can tell you much more than we have without more 
> information such as what is being used by his school and within his class, 
> and of course, one
> must look to next year as well.  How do student's write papers, how 
> specific is the instruction on word processing, do students work together 
> on a document, is he
> going to take any statistics or math classes, and so forth.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:20 -0600, Sally Thomas wrote:
>
>>Sorry I bumped my laptop and sent the last message prematurely.
>
>>I read a statement from Kevin Lynch, the CTO of Adobe.  He says that Adobe
>>is working on the Flash/MacBook issue.  Steve Jobs isn't happy with Adobe
>>but the issue of Flash vs. html seems to be far from finished right now. 
>>In
>>my opinion, if Apple wants to market the iPad as an educational tool, this
>>issue will need to be resolved one way or another.  There are increasing
>>advances in the way html works so it is possible that either html will
>>overtake Flash or maybe there will be advances in both.
>
>>I contacted the NABS group and the feedback I got was that right now 
>>neither
>>Windows nor the MacBook does everything.  It appears that most people use
>>Windows and a screenreader like JAWS but it doesn't appear that this is 
>>due
>>to comparing the 2 but rather because the Voice Over technology on the
>>MacBook has improved to the point that it is a more viable option now. 
>>Like
>>Dave Andrews said, different folks prefer different options.
>
>>I have a call into the Access Technology group at NFB.  They appear to be 
>>a
>>pretty busy group because their message told me to leave my question and
>>they'd get back to me within 3 business days.  If I gather any important
>>information from them, I'll share it here.
>
>>So, right now there is not a definitive answer to this question.  While I 
>>do
>>understand that many educational software providers are working in Flash,
>>this doesn't mean that Windows is best for blind kids educational needs.
>>Now I'm worried about access to things like graphs and maps.  I can just
>>hear the teachers saying "he doesn't need braille, he can just listen to 
>>his
>>books."
>
>>I keep wishing that there was one device that would do everything for my 
>>son
>>but that is not the case now.  It appears that right now, either 
>>technology
>>would work for him.  Things are changing and we'll have to see how it pans
>>out.  We just need to make it clear that access to ALL the material is
>>important to blind kids.
>
>>Sally Thomas
>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>>> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>>>
>>> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
>>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>>>
>>> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of 
>>> the
>>> NFB case and the settlement.
>>>
>>> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply  but
>>> in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or  really
>>> just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  company like
>>> Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  many web pages 
>>> are
>>> setup by small groups or single individuals with  little budget or very
>>> often for no money.
>>>
>>> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
>>> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off- line;
>>> sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would  hope to
>>> achieve.
>>>
>>> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
>>> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
>>> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like 
>>> to
>>> use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
>>> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
>>> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
>>> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>
>>>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
>>>> mitigate
>>>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our  community
>>>> at a
>>>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
>>>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>>>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law  suit 
>>>> or
>>>> a
>>>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and 
>>>> intra
>>>> net
>>>> access needs.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one 
>>>> who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,  as
>>>> long
>>>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>>>> accessibility.
>>>>
>>>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>>>> Flash.
>>>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will 
>>>> have
>>>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>>>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their 
>>>> online
>>>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand 
>>>> in
>>>> hand
>>>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>>>> assessments
>>>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash 
>>>> based.
>>>> All
>>>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because  you
>>>> will
>>>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
>>>> large
>>>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>>>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
>>>> comments
>>>>
>>>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really  curious. 
>>>> My
>>>> son
>>>>
>>>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>>>
>>>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
>>>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is  designed. 
>>>> I
>>>> am
>>>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going  to
>>>> check
>>>>
>>>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>>>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to  check
>>>> with
>>>> the student division is a good one too.
>>>>
>>>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as 
>>>> an
>>>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>>>> accessibility,
>>>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>>>> content.
>>>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and 
>>>>> Hal
>>>>> do
>>>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>>>> children,
>>>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible 
>>>>> on
>>>>> a
>>>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are 
>>>>> wanting
>>>>> to
>>>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
>>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>>>>> Flash.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>>>> compatible
>>>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>>>> content
>>>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org ]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son 
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook  is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> best
>>>>>>
>>>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the  built 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>>>> Since
>>>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>>>> software,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>>>> ot.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
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>>>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com 




From albert at myblindspot.org  Sat Feb 27 16:06:07 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:06:07 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <8E40364C-DB40-4357-AE6E-1EA366F2FD15@gopbc.org>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1><2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org><94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1>
	<8E40364C-DB40-4357-AE6E-1EA366F2FD15@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <FACF2B5F25B244A9AFD178222D49092B@JkTC4D1>

I agree with you on as I have in  other instances, education and mitigation
are key here. There is a broad world wide movement to make things as
accessible as possible, and it is moving ever slowly but moving it is. I did
not mean to relay anything other then the fact that small business  or
large, there are key tax incentives which off set the costs to make sites
compliant. If we educate techies on the importance of universal design we
will ensure that all sites built going forward, and yes I feel all is
possible, they will build sites right the first time and then tweak them as
technologies improve. By making this a focus, we ensure equal access to
information for our children in the schools and most definitely in the work
arena as well. Most do go kicking and screaming but those of us dependent on
assistive technologies must scream louder to keep the doors of hope and
opportunity open for our blind youth.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Holloway
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:46 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

I don't want to turn this into another huge debate as it seems a bit  
beyond the scope of the question that was asked as well as outside of  
this forum's general area of discussion.

I don't think it is rhetoric to suggest that $10,000 is beyond the  
budget of a great many small companies or that there are a literally  
millions of personal and other small sites of various non-business- 
related functions which would have no reasonable chance of compliance.  
Now factor in every non-US based web site on the planet. This is just  
not simple to solve.

Going after a Target or a Wal Mart sort of a company that is being  
unreasonable makes a good deal of sense but we're never going to  
**force** everyone to comply and even if we did, the negative reaction  
towards blind people by many who had been, at the least frustrated,  
and possibly even forced to remove web sites due to non-compliance  
could be substantial, to say the least.

How about making businesses as aware as possible of the benefits of  
compliant sites and working with the likes of Adobe and other web  
design software sources to encourage every effort be made to help  
fledgling web designers produce sites that are as easy as possible for  
the physically disabled to navigate.

At least that's where I'd start.

Richard



On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind  
> open to
> considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided  
> one has
> the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design  
> when
> crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
> otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our  
> community of
> blind students and adults will forever be at a critical  
> disadvantage  and
> will continue to be unemployed  or under employed. It is not just  
> the web
> sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need  
> to be
> accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates  
> amongst the
> blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
> technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My  
> company
> and I have partnered  with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for  
> all a
> reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size  
> business  to
> make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how  
> expensive
> that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or  
> credit once a
> business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
> institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to  
> these
> laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to  
> make
> sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the  
> most
> compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
> scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
> officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate  avoidance of  
> adherence.
> it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
> concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they  
> get on
> it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is  
> not in
> comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of  
> tax
> revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who  
> can work.
> Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with  
> paralysis and
> cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
> accessibility and they will supply it.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Richard Holloway
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>
> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>
> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of
> the NFB case and the settlement.
>
> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply
> but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
> really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big
> company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that
> many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with
> little budget or very often for no money.
>
> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off-
> line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
> hope to achieve.
>
> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like
> to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
>> mitigate
>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
>> community at a
>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and  
>> the
>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law
>> suit or a
>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and
>> intra net
>> access needs.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>> who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,
>> as long
>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>> accessibility.
>>
>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>> Flash.
>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will
>> have
>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their
>> online
>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand
>> in hand
>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>> assessments
>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash
>> based. All
>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because
>> you will
>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
>> large
>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
>> comments
>>
>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
>> curious.  My son
>>
>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>
>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were  
>> not
>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is
>> designed.  I am
>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going
>> to check
>>
>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to
>> check with
>> the student division is a good one too.
>>
>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as
>> an
>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>> accessibility,
>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>> content.
>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and
>>> Hal do
>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>> children,
>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible
>>> on a
>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>>> wanting to
>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't  
>>> support
>>> Flash.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>>> children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>> Apple's
>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>> compatible
>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>> content
>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially  
>>>> children's
>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> ] On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son
>>>> has an
>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email
>>>> from
>>>> it
>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook
>>>> is the
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>>> built in
>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>> Since
>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>> software,
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc 
> .
> org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
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ot.org




From dhammelia at aol.com  Sat Feb 27 18:26:15 2010
From: dhammelia at aol.com (dhammelia at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:26:15 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Accesible Technology
In-Reply-To: <FACF2B5F25B244A9AFD178222D49092B@JkTC4D1>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1><2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org><94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1><8E40364C-DB40-4357-AE6E-1EA366F2FD15@gopbc.org>
	<FACF2B5F25B244A9AFD178222D49092B@JkTC4D1>
Message-ID: <8CC85F17B75BC96-1AA8-532E@webmail-m034.sysops.aol.com>

Were you at Washington Seminar?  One of the three points we lobbied for was the bill for accesible technology.





-----Original Message-----
From: Albert J Rizzi <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)' <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 10:06 am
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


I agree with you on as I have in  other instances, education and mitigation
re key here. There is a broad world wide movement to make things as
ccessible as possible, and it is moving ever slowly but moving it is. I did
ot mean to relay anything other then the fact that small business  or
arge, there are key tax incentives which off set the costs to make sites
ompliant. If we educate techies on the importance of universal design we
ill ensure that all sites built going forward, and yes I feel all is
ossible, they will build sites right the first time and then tweak them as
echnologies improve. By making this a focus, we ensure equal access to
nformation for our children in the schools and most definitely in the work
rena as well. Most do go kicking and screaming but those of us dependent on
ssistive technologies must scream louder to keep the doors of hope and
pportunity open for our blind youth.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
EO/Founder
y Blind Spot, Inc.
0 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
ew York, New York  10004
ww.myblindspot.org
H: 917-553-0347
ax: 212-858-5759
The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
oing it."

isit us on Facebook LinkedIn

-----Original Message-----
rom: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
ehalf Of Richard Holloway
ent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:46 PM
o: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
ubject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
I don't want to turn this into another huge debate as it seems a bit  
eyond the scope of the question that was asked as well as outside of  
his forum's general area of discussion.
I don't think it is rhetoric to suggest that $10,000 is beyond the  
udget of a great many small companies or that there are a literally  
illions of personal and other small sites of various non-business- 
elated functions which would have no reasonable chance of compliance.  
ow factor in every non-US based web site on the planet. This is just  
ot simple to solve.
Going after a Target or a Wal Mart sort of a company that is being  
nreasonable makes a good deal of sense but we're never going to  
*force** everyone to comply and even if we did, the negative reaction  
owards blind people by many who had been, at the least frustrated,  
nd possibly even forced to remove web sites due to non-compliance  
ould be substantial, to say the least.
How about making businesses as aware as possible of the benefits of  
ompliant sites and working with the likes of Adobe and other web  
esign software sources to encourage every effort be made to help  
ledgling web designers produce sites that are as easy as possible for  
he physically disabled to navigate.
At least that's where I'd start.
Richard

On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
> I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind  
 open to
 considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided  
 one has
 the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design  
 when
 crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
 otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our  
 community of
 blind students and adults will forever be at a critical  
 disadvantage  and
 will continue to be unemployed  or under employed. It is not just  
 the web
 sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need  
 to be
 accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates  
 amongst the
 blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
 technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My  
 company
 and I have partnered  with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for  
 all a
 reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size  
 business  to
 make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how  
 expensive
 that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or  
 credit once a
 business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
 institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to  
 these
 laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to  
 make
 sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the  
 most
 compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
 scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
 officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate  avoidance of  
 adherence.
 it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
 concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they  
 get on
 it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is  
 not in
 comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of  
 tax
 revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who  
 can work.
 Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with  
 paralysis and
 cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
 accessibility and they will supply it.

 Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
 CEO/Founder
 My Blind Spot, Inc.
 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
 New York, New York  10004
 www.myblindspot.org
 PH: 917-553-0347
 Fax: 212-858-5759
 "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
 who is
 doing it."


 Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
 bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Richard Holloway
 Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
 To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

 The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.

 Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm

 If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of
 the NFB case and the settlement.

 Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply
 but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
 really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big
 company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that
 many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with
 little budget or very often for no money.

 Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
 they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off-
 line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
 hope to achieve.

 On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
 improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
 upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like
 to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
 descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
 that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
 probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.

 Richard




 On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
> mitigate
> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
> community at a
> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and  
> the
> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law
> suit or a
> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and
> intra net
> access needs.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,
> as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will
> have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their
> online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand
> in hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash
> based. All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because
> you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
> large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
> curious.  My son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were  
> not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is
> designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going
> to check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to
> check with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as
> an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and
>> Hal do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>> children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible
>> on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>> wanting to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't  
>> support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>> children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially  
>>> children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son
>>> has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email
>>> from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook
>>> is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>> built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
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>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
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>> blindkid mailing list
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
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From craney07 at rochester.rr.com  Sat Feb 27 19:05:17 2010
From: craney07 at rochester.rr.com (Heather)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:05:17 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1><2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org><94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1>
	<8E40364C-DB40-4357-AE6E-1EA366F2FD15@gopbc.org>
Message-ID: <CADF280827024243A7086509F4363D7D@7PYZPJ1>

I purchase a great deal from small, and we are talking very small companies 
online.  Some are a nice lady who makes awsum hand-made soaps, and her 
daughter who designed her website or a couple who sells their organic honey 
and maple syrup from their own land in Maine and their random unckle Bob did 
up their web site for them. .  Yes, that small.  A lot of these sites are 
minimally accessable, and I have no problem with that, because I'd rather 
the world have the benifit of these lovely hand-made and home-made products 
that are created in small batches with attention to detail, than to have 
every site on the web be accessible or shut down.  Honestly, and I am blind, 
for the record, the portion of the population that is blind is small enough, 
that I think the greater good of the entire population, blind and sighted 
together needs to be the priority.  I think that accessability, for any 
disability should always be strivven for, but not at the cost of the general 
population.  All of the small companies I buy from are more than happy to 
take time out of their personal days to help me out.  And, we are not 
talking about "Give me the list of what you want and your credit card 
number, and I will run it for you."  No, we are talking "Sure, I'd be happy 
to read the full ingreediants lists for our soap and our body oils and our 
body scrubs."  "No problem, let me describe the patterns of these baby 
carriers in detail for you, so that you can pick the best one for you, and 
yes, I can look up a picture of the Vira Bradley pattern that your hand bag 
and diaper bag are in, so that I can recommend which of our mei teis will go 
best with your ensamble as a whole."  "Here, I'll tell you about our 
upcoming sale, since there's some flash on the little blerb that announces 
new sales, that your computer won't read to you, and in fact, it sstarts 
next week, but would you like to buy items from that release and the current 
one, while we are on the phone together?"  "Oh, I totally understand, 
describe the style of cloth diapers that you bought from me and I would be 
happy to go and find one off the shelf and read you the washing instructions 
on the tag, since you can't read it, would you like me to send you a free 
sample of my two favorite brands of organic soap for washing cloth diapers 
while I'm at it?"  And so on and so forth.  These people I buy from know 
organic foods, or soap making, or artisan cheeses, or amazing craftsmanship, 
they do not usually know computers, and they usually do their best to design 
their sites themselves, or have family friends do it for free, or for a 
discounted rate.  I'm not going to fault them for that.  Many have taken 
steps to make little subtle changes to their shopping cart software, forums 
or online catalogs, so that they are easier for me to use.  A huge 
corperation can just shut their mouth and fix their site and stop hastling 
the blind community, but smaller businesses should be forgiven their 
inadaquate websites, and given gentle suggestions for improvement.

There is a beautiful old restaurant, off the beaten path, in, gah, trying to 
remember, Oklahoma I believe, that my father and I went to, when we were 
going across the united states trying to camp in as many states as possible. 
It was old and rickity and pitted and scratched, in the historical way, not 
the slummy way.  It had a gorgeous sweeping viranda with a double 
stairecase, one long set of steps  coming down from each side, east and 
west.  That had cultural and historical significance for the owners.  This 
was a very very old building, at least a hundred years old.  The food was 
amazing, and the service and ambiance were really awsum.  We passed it again 
a year later, and it was completely ruened.  When we asked the owners what 
had happened, they explained that first a man in a wheelchair had come to 
dine there, and had been told that they were very sorry, but there was no 
ramp and no way for him to enter.  They offered to deliver a meal to his 
home, to bring a table out to the beautiful lawn just for him and his 
guest(s), or to have one of their servers actually carry him up the steps 
and then carry up his chair.  This is a very small town we are talking 
about.  Apparently that wasn't good enough for this man who went to the 
local media and got the police involved.  So, the restaurant had a special 
path and ramp built at the back of this restaurant, because, built into a 
hill, the front was almost a full story above the ground, but in the back, 
the staff/kitchen enterence is just a few feet above the ground.  The man 
said that  "I'm not a second class citizen, I'm not going in the back door. 
That's descrimination."  The restaurant couldn't find any way to make the 
front accessable, but to build a winding ramp, in concrete, that all but 
obliterated the nice front lawn, forced several of the nice old trees to be 
cut down, and completely obscured the view of the historic double stairway 
which was hacked in half for the concrete ramp and supports to come all of 
the way up to the front door.  The locals kept coming, but the tourist 
business died away, because of the changes to the building, and the place 
closed, all for some crotchity old jerk in a wheelchair.  Nobody who is in a 
wheelchair, deaf, blind, etc wants to be hated, or to actively take away joy 
and enjoyment from others, accept for this a--h---.  It just drives me crazy 
when I see extreamist groups pushing for changes that will not only benifit 
them, but will make others misserable.

I agree that Target needs to comply, as they are loaded and can certainly 
afford to fix their site, but I would actively oppose any legislation or 
group who would try to insist that all businesses comply, even if it would 
hurt their business or even cause it to close.  There is an indian 
restaurant that I go to, where I bring my dog in the side door, hustle him 
under a table and enjoy my meal, because the dog was upsetting to many of 
the Muslim, Indian and Packastani individuals who made up at least 
seventy-five percent of the clientelle.  I had all legal right to go there, 
and I do go there with my dog, but I don't want to do something that might 
cause the owners, extremely nice people, to lose business.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


>I don't want to turn this into another huge debate as it seems a bit 
>beyond the scope of the question that was asked as well as outside of  this 
>forum's general area of discussion.
>
> I don't think it is rhetoric to suggest that $10,000 is beyond the  budget 
> of a great many small companies or that there are a literally  millions of 
> personal and other small sites of various non-business- related functions 
> which would have no reasonable chance of compliance.  Now factor in every 
> non-US based web site on the planet. This is just  not simple to solve.
>
> Going after a Target or a Wal Mart sort of a company that is being 
> unreasonable makes a good deal of sense but we're never going to 
> **force** everyone to comply and even if we did, the negative reaction 
> towards blind people by many who had been, at the least frustrated,  and 
> possibly even forced to remove web sites due to non-compliance  could be 
> substantial, to say the least.
>
> How about making businesses as aware as possible of the benefits of 
> compliant sites and working with the likes of Adobe and other web  design 
> software sources to encourage every effort be made to help  fledgling web 
> designers produce sites that are as easy as possible for  the physically 
> disabled to navigate.
>
> At least that's where I'd start.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind  open 
>> to
>> considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided  one 
>> has
>> the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design 
>> when
>> crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
>> otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our  community of
>> blind students and adults will forever be at a critical  disadvantage 
>> and
>> will continue to be unemployed  or under employed. It is not just  the 
>> web
>> sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need  to 
>> be
>> accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates  amongst 
>> the
>> blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
>> technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My 
>> company
>> and I have partnered  with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for  all a
>> reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size  business  to
>> make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how 
>> expensive
>> that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or  credit 
>> once a
>> business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
>> institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to 
>> these
>> laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to  make
>> sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the 
>> most
>> compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
>> scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
>> officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate  avoidance of 
>> adherence.
>> it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
>> concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they  get 
>> on
>> it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is  not in
>> comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of  tax
>> revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who  can 
>> work.
>> Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with  paralysis 
>> and
>> cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
>> accessibility and they will supply it.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Richard Holloway
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>>
>> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>>
>> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of
>> the NFB case and the settlement.
>>
>> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply
>> but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
>> really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big
>> company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that
>> many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with
>> little budget or very often for no money.
>>
>> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
>> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off-
>> line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
>> hope to achieve.
>>
>> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
>> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
>> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like
>> to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
>> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
>> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
>> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
>>> mitigate
>>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
>>> community at a
>>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and  the
>>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law
>>> suit or a
>>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and
>>> intra net
>>> access needs.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>> who is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,
>>> as long
>>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>>> accessibility.
>>>
>>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>>> Flash.
>>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will
>>> have
>>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their
>>> online
>>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand
>>> in hand
>>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>>> assessments
>>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash
>>> based. All
>>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because
>>> you will
>>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
>>> large
>>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
>>> comments
>>>
>>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
>>> curious.  My son
>>>
>>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>>
>>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were  not
>>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is
>>> designed.  I am
>>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going
>>> to check
>>>
>>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to
>>> check with
>>> the student division is a good one too.
>>>
>>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as
>>> an
>>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>>> accessibility,
>>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>>> content.
>>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and
>>>> Hal do
>>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>>> children,
>>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible
>>>> on a
>>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>>>> wanting to
>>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't  support
>>>> Flash.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  children)'"
>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>>> Apple's
>>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>>> compatible
>>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>>> content
>>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially  children's
>>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> ] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son
>>>>> has an
>>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email
>>>>> from
>>>>> it
>>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook
>>>>> is the
>>>>> best
>>>>>
>>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>>>> built in
>>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>>> Since
>>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>>> software,
>>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>>> ot.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindkid:
>>>
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>> org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> blindkid:
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>
>
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From rholloway at gopbc.org  Sat Feb 27 19:10:28 2010
From: rholloway at gopbc.org (Richard Holloway)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:10:28 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <A0A01153E8164D8686E7E166722CFE5A@OwnerPC>
References: <auto-000021574339@mailback1.g2host.com>
	<A0A01153E8164D8686E7E166722CFE5A@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <CD2241FD-F2A1-48F5-BB79-0618348D4D4A@gopbc.org>

Sally,

I think part of it too, is about peripheral equipment and the ease of  
connecting it which will probably be easier down the road as you want  
to add things to your system. The computer hardware itself is  
reasonably affordable. You don't need a lot of computing power for  
most of our children's computer needs so $400 or $500 is probably  
enough to buy a good PC. The problem is that the software represents a  
rather large investment too. If you want JAWS, you're going to spend  
at least $895 unless you want to run the free demo and restart every  
45 minutes (I think it is 45 minutes). Also, there is a service  
contract for JAWS of about $120 if you want support and upgrades to be  
supplied.

Then if you want Duxbury to print braille properly, that's another  
$600. That of course does not include the braille embosser itself. You  
might find one used for virtually any price but be aware that a $200  
used embosser may need a $1000 repair when it fails. Something like a  
Romeo 25 is around $2500 new and again, new or used, you'll probably  
want to get Duxbury for $600.

On the Mac side, you can get a new iMac starting around $1200 and that  
has a certain amount of screen reading built in, but the options and  
support once you want to add an embosser or braille display are  
unfortunately vastly more limited...

For us, I wanted to have confidence that we'd be able to use the  
embossers and refreshable braille devices of our choice. With a PAC  
Mate's removable display, for example hooking up a working braille  
display with JAWS on a PC is literally as simple as plugging in a USB  
cable. I'm not aware of any solution to add that to a Mac at all.

Likewise for Duxbury (braille translation software), it is current and  
well supported for PC but the last version I'm aware of for a Mac is  
from 1999. There are a few places on line where it may appear to be  
listed as available as a "new release" but then when you see the  
references to System 7 and Mac models like a Mac Plus and the "new"  
Power PC's you'll realize that these are just really old listings.

A couple of years ago we really looked thoroughly into things and even  
as an avid Mac user, I could not justify buying anything but a new PC  
when we wanted to buy our daughter her own computer system. I agree  
that it makes the most sense not to choose a team too far in advance  
though-- you never know what is going to be released when, so don't  
make that final decision until you are getting really close to buying

Richard



On Feb 27, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Sally Thomas wrote:

> Thanks, Steve.  I did speak with the access technology people and  
> had a very interesting conversation.  There is an article in the  
> December 2009 Braille Monitor which outlines a lot of the specifics  
> of accessibility and the MacBook.  I haven't had a chance to read it  
> yet but it may appeal to the detail oriented folks in the group.
>
> I do understand that it would be important to know what demands the  
> school has for use of technology.  One of the things the Access Tech  
> person told me was that JAWS is more sophisticated in terms of style  
> issues in word processing.  That's not an issue now but could become  
> one.
>
> I still stand by the statement that the issue is not settled about  
> which computer is best for a blind child.  Right now a Windows PC  
> might have an advantage but in 2 years, who knows?  There are a lot  
> of changes going on so I guess it's a matter of staying informed.   
> We don't need a new computer right now so we'll be revisiting all  
> this in a couple of years.
>
> Sally Thomas
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com 
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> >
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Sally,
>>
>> Please consider the comments on NABS-L that suggested that seeing  
>> what his school is using, both for software and hardware, is worth  
>> doing.  It may make the
>> decision easier, or convince you that it doesn't matter.  Either  
>> outcome is best to know before you make a purchase.  I know the  
>> people in our access group, and I
>> don't think they can tell you much more than we have without more  
>> information such as what is being used by his school and within his  
>> class, and of course, one
>> must look to next year as well.  How do student's write papers, how  
>> specific is the instruction on word processing, do students work  
>> together on a document, is he
>> going to take any statistics or math classes, and so forth.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:20 -0600, Sally Thomas wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry I bumped my laptop and sent the last message prematurely.
>>
>>> I read a statement from Kevin Lynch, the CTO of Adobe.  He says  
>>> that Adobe
>>> is working on the Flash/MacBook issue.  Steve Jobs isn't happy  
>>> with Adobe
>>> but the issue of Flash vs. html seems to be far from finished  
>>> right now. In
>>> my opinion, if Apple wants to market the iPad as an educational  
>>> tool, this
>>> issue will need to be resolved one way or another.  There are  
>>> increasing
>>> advances in the way html works so it is possible that either html  
>>> will
>>> overtake Flash or maybe there will be advances in both.
>>
>>> I contacted the NABS group and the feedback I got was that right  
>>> now neither
>>> Windows nor the MacBook does everything.  It appears that most  
>>> people use
>>> Windows and a screenreader like JAWS but it doesn't appear that  
>>> this is due
>>> to comparing the 2 but rather because the Voice Over technology on  
>>> the
>>> MacBook has improved to the point that it is a more viable option  
>>> now. Like
>>> Dave Andrews said, different folks prefer different options.
>>
>>> I have a call into the Access Technology group at NFB.  They  
>>> appear to be a
>>> pretty busy group because their message told me to leave my  
>>> question and
>>> they'd get back to me within 3 business days.  If I gather any  
>>> important
>>> information from them, I'll share it here.
>>
>>> So, right now there is not a definitive answer to this question.   
>>> While I do
>>> understand that many educational software providers are working in  
>>> Flash,
>>> this doesn't mean that Windows is best for blind kids educational  
>>> needs.
>>> Now I'm worried about access to things like graphs and maps.  I  
>>> can just
>>> hear the teachers saying "he doesn't need braille, he can just  
>>> listen to his
>>> books."
>>
>>> I keep wishing that there was one device that would do everything  
>>> for my son
>>> but that is not the case now.  It appears that right now, either  
>>> technology
>>> would work for him.  Things are changing and we'll have to see how  
>>> it pans
>>> out.  We just need to make it clear that access to ALL the  
>>> material is
>>> important to blind kids.
>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org 
>>> >
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>>> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in  
>>>> 2006.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
>>>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>>>>
>>>> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details  
>>>> of the
>>>> NFB case and the settlement.
>>>>
>>>> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone  
>>>> comply  but
>>>> in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or   
>>>> really
>>>> just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big  company  
>>>> like
>>>> Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that  many web  
>>>> pages are
>>>> setup by small groups or single individuals with  little budget  
>>>> or very
>>>> often for no money.
>>>>
>>>> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment,  
>>>> and if
>>>> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site  
>>>> off- line;
>>>> sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would   
>>>> hope to
>>>> achieve.
>>>>
>>>> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
>>>> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
>>>> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I  
>>>> like to
>>>> use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
>>>> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really  
>>>> think
>>>> that better educated web designers and improved software are the  
>>>> most
>>>> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
>>>>> mitigate
>>>>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our   
>>>>> community
>>>>> at a
>>>>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements  
>>>>> and the
>>>>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our  
>>>>> need for
>>>>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a  
>>>>> law  suit or
>>>>> a
>>>>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter  
>>>>> and intra
>>>>> net
>>>>> access needs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the  
>>>>> one who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>> ]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>>>>> children)'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and  
>>>>> Hal,  as
>>>>> long
>>>>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can  
>>>>> access
>>>>> Flash.
>>>>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and  
>>>>> will have
>>>>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible  
>>>>> enrichment
>>>>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany  
>>>>> their online
>>>>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go  
>>>>> hand in
>>>>> hand
>>>>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>>>>> assessments
>>>>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also  
>>>>> Flash based.
>>>>> All
>>>>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac,  
>>>>> because  you
>>>>> will
>>>>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for  
>>>>> browsing a
>>>>> large
>>>>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>>>>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>> ]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I  
>>>>> hear
>>>>> comments
>>>>>
>>>>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really   
>>>>> curious. My
>>>>> son
>>>>>
>>>>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS  
>>>>> were not
>>>>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is   
>>>>> designed. I
>>>>> am
>>>>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm  
>>>>> going  to
>>>>> check
>>>>>
>>>>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>>>>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion  
>>>>> to  check
>>>>> with
>>>>> the student division is a good one too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad  
>>>>> placed as an
>>>>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>>>>> accessibility,
>>>>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>>>>> children)'"
>>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe  
>>>>>> Flash
>>>>>> content.
>>>>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes  
>>>>>> and Hal
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>>>>> children,
>>>>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites,  
>>>>>> inaccessible on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are  
>>>>>> wanting
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind  
>>>>>> children)
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't  
>>>>>> support
>>>>>> Flash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>>>>>> children)'"
>>>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the  
>>>>>>> Mac.
>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>>>>> compatible
>>>>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more  
>>>>>>> Flash
>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially  
>>>>>>> children's
>>>>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an  
>>>>>>> MSAA
>>>>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>>>  ]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind  
>>>>>>> children)
>>>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My  
>>>>>>> son has
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send  
>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a  
>>>>>>> MacBook  is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the   
>>>>>>> built in
>>>>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its  
>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>> Since
>>>>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>>>>> software,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>>> info for
>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>>> info for
>>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>> info for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>> info for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>>>>> ot.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  
>>>>> info  for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>>> for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>
>>
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>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for blindkid:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for blindkid:
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>
>
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
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From albert at myblindspot.org  Sat Feb 27 19:33:04 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:33:04 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Accessible Technology
In-Reply-To: <8CC85F17B75BC96-1AA8-532E@webmail-m034.sysops.aol.com>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1><2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org><94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1><8E40364C-DB40-4357-AE6E-1EA366F2FD15@gopbc.org><FACF2B5F25B244A9AFD178222D49092B@JkTC4D1>
	<8CC85F17B75BC96-1AA8-532E@webmail-m034.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <30B0F7054AF74EF4B8586D935D98C88D@JkTC4D1>

I am very new to the blind community as I have only been so for just 4 years
now. I plan on making it a point to be at events such as these. I have in
fact written to the white house on this proposal and feel that without
adherence to section 508 compliance issues all the bills or acts we try to
enact will just be added to laws presently in place which are not being
enforced. Enforcement would be a key issue here and not just for the federal
government. There was also something proposed by senators Dodd and McCain on
making a smooth transition   from disability supports to gainful employment
which would not put the benefits and security we have from SSI or SSDI be as
abruptly ended as they presently can be once we earn over the allotted
amount to still draw on these benefits. So much is happening  which lead me
to believe that great changes are on the horizon for sure.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of dhammelia at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:26 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Accesible Technology

Were you at Washington Seminar?  One of the three points we lobbied for was
the bill for accesible technology.





-----Original Message-----
From: Albert J Rizzi <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 10:06 am
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


I agree with you on as I have in  other instances, education and mitigation
re key here. There is a broad world wide movement to make things as
ccessible as possible, and it is moving ever slowly but moving it is. I did
ot mean to relay anything other then the fact that small business  or
arge, there are key tax incentives which off set the costs to make sites
ompliant. If we educate techies on the importance of universal design we
ill ensure that all sites built going forward, and yes I feel all is
ossible, they will build sites right the first time and then tweak them as
echnologies improve. By making this a focus, we ensure equal access to
nformation for our children in the schools and most definitely in the work
rena as well. Most do go kicking and screaming but those of us dependent on
ssistive technologies must scream louder to keep the doors of hope and
pportunity open for our blind youth.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
EO/Founder
y Blind Spot, Inc.
0 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
ew York, New York  10004
ww.myblindspot.org
H: 917-553-0347
ax: 212-858-5759
The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
oing it."

isit us on Facebook LinkedIn

-----Original Message-----
rom: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
ehalf Of Richard Holloway
ent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:46 PM
o: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
ubject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
I don't want to turn this into another huge debate as it seems a bit  
eyond the scope of the question that was asked as well as outside of  
his forum's general area of discussion.
I don't think it is rhetoric to suggest that $10,000 is beyond the  
udget of a great many small companies or that there are a literally  
illions of personal and other small sites of various non-business- 
elated functions which would have no reasonable chance of compliance.  
ow factor in every non-US based web site on the planet. This is just  
ot simple to solve.
Going after a Target or a Wal Mart sort of a company that is being  
nreasonable makes a good deal of sense but we're never going to  
*force** everyone to comply and even if we did, the negative reaction  
owards blind people by many who had been, at the least frustrated,  
nd possibly even forced to remove web sites due to non-compliance  
ould be substantial, to say the least.
How about making businesses as aware as possible of the benefits of  
ompliant sites and working with the likes of Adobe and other web  
esign software sources to encourage every effort be made to help  
ledgling web designers produce sites that are as easy as possible for  
he physically disabled to navigate.
At least that's where I'd start.
Richard

On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
> I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind  
 open to
 considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided  
 one has
 the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design  
 when
 crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
 otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our  
 community of
 blind students and adults will forever be at a critical  
 disadvantage  and
 will continue to be unemployed  or under employed. It is not just  
 the web
 sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need  
 to be
 accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates  
 amongst the
 blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
 technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My  
 company
 and I have partnered  with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for  
 all a
 reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size  
 business  to
 make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how  
 expensive
 that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or  
 credit once a
 business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
 institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to  
 these
 laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to  
 make
 sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the  
 most
 compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
 scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
 officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate  avoidance of  
 adherence.
 it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
 concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they  
 get on
 it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is  
 not in
 comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of  
 tax
 revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who  
 can work.
 Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with  
 paralysis and
 cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
 accessibility and they will supply it.

 Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
 CEO/Founder
 My Blind Spot, Inc.
 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
 New York, New York  10004
 www.myblindspot.org
 PH: 917-553-0347
 Fax: 212-858-5759
 "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  
 who is
 doing it."


 Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- 
 bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Richard Holloway
 Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
 To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

 The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.

 Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm

 If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of
 the NFB case and the settlement.

 Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply
 but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
 really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big
 company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that
 many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with
 little budget or very often for no money.

 Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
 they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off-
 line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
 hope to achieve.

 On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
 improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
 upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like
 to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
 descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
 that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
 probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.

 Richard




 On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:

> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
> mitigate
> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
> community at a
> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and  
> the
> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law
> suit or a
> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and
> intra net
> access needs.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,
> as long
> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
> accessibility.
>
> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
> Flash.
> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will
> have
> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their
> online
> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand
> in hand
> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
> assessments
> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash
> based. All
> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because
> you will
> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
> large
> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>
> Thea Eaton
> DoodleDoo
> www.doodledoo.com
> Where early birds learn.
> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
> comments
>
> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
> curious.  My son
>
> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>
> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were  
> not
> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is
> designed.  I am
> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going
> to check
>
> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to
> check with
> the student division is a good one too.
>
> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as
> an
> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
> accessibility,
> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>> content.
>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and
>> Hal do
>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>> children,
>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible
>> on a
>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>> wanting to
>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>
>>
>> Thea Eaton
>> DoodleDoo
>> www.doodledoo.com
>> Where early birds learn.
>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't  
>> support
>> Flash.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  
>> children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>> Apple's
>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>> compatible
>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>> content
>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially  
>>> children's
>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son
>>> has an
>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email
>>> from
>>> it
>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook
>>> is the
>>> best
>>>
>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>> built in
>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>> Since
>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>> software,
>>> it
>>>
>>> might be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> blindkid:
>>
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> blindkid:
>>
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
> ot.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindkid:
>

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc 
 .
 org


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 blindkid mailing list
 blindkid at nfbnet.org
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 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 blindkid:

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 ot.org


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 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
 for blindkid:

ttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
rg

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o unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From albert at myblindspot.org  Sat Feb 27 22:53:28 2010
From: albert at myblindspot.org (Albert J Rizzi)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:53:28 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
In-Reply-To: <CADF280827024243A7086509F4363D7D@7PYZPJ1>
References: <auto-000140548188@mailfront2.g2host.com><FB4E043FD7F44F029F8C4C035A735016@OwnerPC>	<004c01cab4aa$58fa9e60$0aefdb20$@com><8AF08AC8B49A4873936EBDC94B27B82C@OwnerPC>	<00a401cab4d2$17b04400$4710cc00$@com><1C65741A168E4ADF93885C81ABDB3D73@OwnerPC><00ce01cab50c$9093a2b0$b1bae810$@com><C73E2D28BF894D37BB3D6DC29592145F@JkTC4D1><2A97A645-904B-4F1F-AE59-4F3DFF24B8D8@gopbc.org><94CC38A1206F4472879408481D3B1567@JkTC4D1><8E40364C-DB40-4357-AE6E-1EA366F2FD15@gopbc.org>
	<CADF280827024243A7086509F4363D7D@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <50F60D7FB1DE4A6EA23FB10D1C3DD9AB@JkTC4D1>

No one wants to see businesses hurt or compromised at all. Like you said, if
we just gently suggest those improvements to make the site more accessible
we all win. I like you appreciate the attention to service which you speak
of when looking for quality products, and I dare say that the manner with
which you are served and respected is offered to all customers who frequent
the specialized vendors you mentioned. In that instance all people are being
treated fairly and with proper customer service. It is in instances at the
onset of developing a site that accessibility codings can and should be
included at the time of design  and conception. If the purveyors of software
packages which help small business owners when developing web sites knew
what to include all would be right for nearly 60 million people. We are not
talking about destroying historic landmarks as you shared, which pained me
so to hear. It is modern technology being used in the manner it was
designed, to provide access to the internet and the sites on it. planning to
include these inclusive components  would only serve to build business for
the small business owner and allow for a broad appreciation of products of
any nature when offered for sale on the internet..

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 2:05 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro

I purchase a great deal from small, and we are talking very small companies 
online.  Some are a nice lady who makes awsum hand-made soaps, and her 
daughter who designed her website or a couple who sells their organic honey 
and maple syrup from their own land in Maine and their random unckle Bob did

up their web site for them. .  Yes, that small.  A lot of these sites are 
minimally accessable, and I have no problem with that, because I'd rather 
the world have the benifit of these lovely hand-made and home-made products 
that are created in small batches with attention to detail, than to have 
every site on the web be accessible or shut down.  Honestly, and I am blind,

for the record, the portion of the population that is blind is small enough,

that I think the greater good of the entire population, blind and sighted 
together needs to be the priority.  I think that accessability, for any 
disability should always be strivven for, but not at the cost of the general

population.  All of the small companies I buy from are more than happy to 
take time out of their personal days to help me out.  And, we are not 
talking about "Give me the list of what you want and your credit card 
number, and I will run it for you."  No, we are talking "Sure, I'd be happy 
to read the full ingreediants lists for our soap and our body oils and our 
body scrubs."  "No problem, let me describe the patterns of these baby 
carriers in detail for you, so that you can pick the best one for you, and 
yes, I can look up a picture of the Vira Bradley pattern that your hand bag 
and diaper bag are in, so that I can recommend which of our mei teis will go

best with your ensamble as a whole."  "Here, I'll tell you about our 
upcoming sale, since there's some flash on the little blerb that announces 
new sales, that your computer won't read to you, and in fact, it sstarts 
next week, but would you like to buy items from that release and the current

one, while we are on the phone together?"  "Oh, I totally understand, 
describe the style of cloth diapers that you bought from me and I would be 
happy to go and find one off the shelf and read you the washing instructions

on the tag, since you can't read it, would you like me to send you a free 
sample of my two favorite brands of organic soap for washing cloth diapers 
while I'm at it?"  And so on and so forth.  These people I buy from know 
organic foods, or soap making, or artisan cheeses, or amazing craftsmanship,

they do not usually know computers, and they usually do their best to design

their sites themselves, or have family friends do it for free, or for a 
discounted rate.  I'm not going to fault them for that.  Many have taken 
steps to make little subtle changes to their shopping cart software, forums 
or online catalogs, so that they are easier for me to use.  A huge 
corperation can just shut their mouth and fix their site and stop hastling 
the blind community, but smaller businesses should be forgiven their 
inadaquate websites, and given gentle suggestions for improvement.

There is a beautiful old restaurant, off the beaten path, in, gah, trying to

remember, Oklahoma I believe, that my father and I went to, when we were 
going across the united states trying to camp in as many states as possible.

It was old and rickity and pitted and scratched, in the historical way, not 
the slummy way.  It had a gorgeous sweeping viranda with a double 
stairecase, one long set of steps  coming down from each side, east and 
west.  That had cultural and historical significance for the owners.  This 
was a very very old building, at least a hundred years old.  The food was 
amazing, and the service and ambiance were really awsum.  We passed it again

a year later, and it was completely ruened.  When we asked the owners what 
had happened, they explained that first a man in a wheelchair had come to 
dine there, and had been told that they were very sorry, but there was no 
ramp and no way for him to enter.  They offered to deliver a meal to his 
home, to bring a table out to the beautiful lawn just for him and his 
guest(s), or to have one of their servers actually carry him up the steps 
and then carry up his chair.  This is a very small town we are talking 
about.  Apparently that wasn't good enough for this man who went to the 
local media and got the police involved.  So, the restaurant had a special 
path and ramp built at the back of this restaurant, because, built into a 
hill, the front was almost a full story above the ground, but in the back, 
the staff/kitchen enterence is just a few feet above the ground.  The man 
said that  "I'm not a second class citizen, I'm not going in the back door. 
That's descrimination."  The restaurant couldn't find any way to make the 
front accessable, but to build a winding ramp, in concrete, that all but 
obliterated the nice front lawn, forced several of the nice old trees to be 
cut down, and completely obscured the view of the historic double stairway 
which was hacked in half for the concrete ramp and supports to come all of 
the way up to the front door.  The locals kept coming, but the tourist 
business died away, because of the changes to the building, and the place 
closed, all for some crotchity old jerk in a wheelchair.  Nobody who is in a

wheelchair, deaf, blind, etc wants to be hated, or to actively take away joy

and enjoyment from others, accept for this a--h---.  It just drives me crazy

when I see extreamist groups pushing for changes that will not only benifit 
them, but will make others misserable.

I agree that Target needs to comply, as they are loaded and can certainly 
afford to fix their site, but I would actively oppose any legislation or 
group who would try to insist that all businesses comply, even if it would 
hurt their business or even cause it to close.  There is an indian 
restaurant that I go to, where I bring my dog in the side door, hustle him 
under a table and enjoy my meal, because the dog was upsetting to many of 
the Muslim, Indian and Packastani individuals who made up at least 
seventy-five percent of the clientelle.  I had all legal right to go there, 
and I do go there with my dog, but I don't want to do something that might 
cause the owners, extremely nice people, to lose business.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro


>I don't want to turn this into another huge debate as it seems a bit 
>beyond the scope of the question that was asked as well as outside of  this

>forum's general area of discussion.
>
> I don't think it is rhetoric to suggest that $10,000 is beyond the  budget

> of a great many small companies or that there are a literally  millions of

> personal and other small sites of various non-business- related functions 
> which would have no reasonable chance of compliance.  Now factor in every 
> non-US based web site on the planet. This is just  not simple to solve.
>
> Going after a Target or a Wal Mart sort of a company that is being 
> unreasonable makes a good deal of sense but we're never going to 
> **force** everyone to comply and even if we did, the negative reaction 
> towards blind people by many who had been, at the least frustrated,  and 
> possibly even forced to remove web sites due to non-compliance  could be 
> substantial, to say the least.
>
> How about making businesses as aware as possible of the benefits of 
> compliant sites and working with the likes of Adobe and other web  design 
> software sources to encourage every effort be made to help  fledgling web 
> designers produce sites that are as easy as possible for  the physically 
> disabled to navigate.
>
> At least that's where I'd start.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind  open 
>> to
>> considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided  one 
>> has
>> the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design 
>> when
>> crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
>> otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our  community of
>> blind students and adults will forever be at a critical  disadvantage 
>> and
>> will continue to be unemployed  or under employed. It is not just  the 
>> web
>> sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need  to 
>> be
>> accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates  amongst 
>> the
>> blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
>> technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My 
>> company
>> and I have partnered  with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for  all a
>> reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size  business  to
>> make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how 
>> expensive
>> that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or  credit 
>> once a
>> business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
>> institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to 
>> these
>> laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to  make
>> sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the 
>> most
>> compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
>> scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
>> officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate  avoidance of 
>> adherence.
>> it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
>> concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they  get 
>> on
>> it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is  not in
>> comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of  tax
>> revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who  can 
>> work.
>> Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with  paralysis 
>> and
>> cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
>> accessibility and they will supply it.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one  who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of Richard Holloway
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>>
>> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>>
>> If you google Case No.:  C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of
>> the NFB case and the settlement.
>>
>> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply
>> but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
>> really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big
>> company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that
>> many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with
>> little budget or very often for no money.
>>
>> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
>> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off-
>> line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
>> hope to achieve.
>>
>> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
>> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
>> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like
>> to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
>> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
>> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
>> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> In that vein what are we as an organization  doing to educate and
>>> mitigate
>>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
>>> community at a
>>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and  the
>>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law
>>> suit or a
>>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and
>>> intra net
>>> access needs.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>> who is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,
>>> as long
>>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>>> accessibility.
>>>
>>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>>> Flash.
>>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will
>>> have
>>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their
>>> online
>>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand
>>> in hand
>>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>>> assessments
>>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash
>>> based. All
>>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because
>>> you will
>>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
>>> large
>>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I hear
>>> comments
>>>
>>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
>>> curious.  My son
>>>
>>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>>
>>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were  not
>>> accessible.  I guess some of it depends on how the site is
>>> designed.  I am
>>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS.  I'm going
>>> to check
>>>
>>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids.  I think the suggestion to
>>> check with
>>> the student division is a good one too.
>>>
>>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as
>>> an
>>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>>> accessibility,
>>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>>> content.
>>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and
>>>> Hal do
>>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>>> children,
>>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible
>>>> on a
>>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>>>> wanting to
>>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't  support
>>>> Flash.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind  children)'"
>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>>> Apple's
>>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>>> compatible
>>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>>> content
>>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially  children's
>>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> ] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work?  My son
>>>>> has an
>>>>> iPod Touch which he loves.  He is even able to type and send email
>>>>> from
>>>>> it
>>>>> despite the touch screen.  This has convinced him that a MacBook
>>>>> is the
>>>>> best
>>>>>
>>>>> computer for him.  I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>>>> built in
>>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>>> Since
>>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>>> software,
>>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindkid:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
>>>> blindkid:
>>>>
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>>> ot.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindkid:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc
.
>> org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindsp
>> ot.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.
org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
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er.rr.com 


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ot.org




From info at michaelhingson.com  Sat Feb 27 22:45:34 2010
From: info at michaelhingson.com (Michael Hingson)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:45:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] KnfbReader Hints and Tricks discussion open to all
Message-ID: <auto-000141317032@mailfront2.g2host.com>

KnfbReader Hints and Tricks discussion open to all

Everyone is invited next Thursday, March 4,  to participate in a combined
on-line and telephone conference to discuss how we all use the KnfbReader
Mobile.  A number of persons have wanted a forum to learn from other users
"How do you do that?".  In response to these many requests we are arranging
for everyone to be able to call in via phone or Skype in on line to
participate.

This innovative program will take place next Thursday, March 4, beginning at
9PM Eastern time, 8PM Central, 7PM Mountain, 6PM Pacific and 4PM Hawaiian
time.  In order to attempt to make this program as available to all as
possible we are offering two ways to participate.  First you can Skype into
the program.  Skype is a communications program available free of charge
through the internet.  If you have Skype simply call my Skype name,
mhingson, and I will add you to the conference.  More instructions will be
published later about this if necessary.

If you wish to participate via phone Here are the dial-in instructions for
the call.  The call -- in number is (218) 339-3600.  The access code is
329906#.  Simply call in no later than times given above to be a part of
this call.  The program is free.  Only any relevant long distance charges
will apply.

Please bring your questions as well as your own reading techniques.  Please
be ready to share and learn from the many other KnfbReader Mobile users and
experts who will be participating in the call.  No question is too silly and
no idea is unwelcome.  If you do not own a KnfbReader Mobile here is a
chance for you to hear first hand from users how they read, learn, and
succeed using this marvelous invention.

I look forward to meeting you all next Thursday evening.  Thank you in
advance for participating in this first KnfbReader Mobile users forum.


Best,


Mike Hingson


The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
      "Speaking with Vision"
                  Michael Hingson, President
                          (415) 827-4084
                    info at michaelhingson.com
                    www.michaelhingson.com


for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com





From agrima at nbp.org  Sun Feb 28 01:41:18 2010
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:41:18 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Noah's Ark Tactile Set
Message-ID: <auto-000141766662@mailfront1.g2host.com>

In light of yesterday's downpours in Boston - where National Braille
Press's office is - we thought it was a good time to mention our Noah's
Ark Tactile Set!

Did you know...
- Baby elephants can weigh 260 lbs at birth?
- Flamingoes are pink because their food contains carotene?
- A tiger's roar can be heard from two miles away?
- May 23rd is World Turtle Day?

A whole book of facts about some of the animals on Noah's
Ark can be discussed while your student or child touches the
unique features of turtles, elephants, dragonflies, giraffes,
and more! The Noah's Ark Tactile Set includes a print/braille
picture book, twelve delightful tactiles, and a print and braille
booklet, "Fun Facts About Noah's Ark"  - all for $28!

If you order Noah's Ark now, we'll send you a FREE
print/braille Winnie-the-Pooh calendar WHILE SUPPLIES LAST. (You have to
call us to get the free calendar: 800-548-7323 ext 520.)

Take a look at this one-of-a-kind tactile set at
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/NOAH.html

And see the Pooh Calendar at
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/2010POOH.html

******
To order any books, send payment to:
NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext
520. Or order any of our books online at
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html .



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From TEOlivero at nfb.org  Sun Feb 28 01:57:23 2010
From: TEOlivero at nfb.org (Olivero,
	Treva)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:57:23 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Braille Reading Pals Club
Message-ID: <auto-000141766979@mailfront1.g2host.com>


National Federation of the Blind
Braille Reading Pals Club

Registration is now open for the New Year beginning April 1, 2010.

The Braille Reading Pals Club is an early literacy program that 
encourages parents to read daily with their blind or low-vision child 
(ages infant to seven).
Participating club members will receive:
    *  A print-Braille book and a plush reading pal
    * Monthly parent e-newsletter promoting tips for early Braille literacy
    * Quarterly Braille activity sheets for young children
    * Braille birthday cards for child participants
    * Access to a network of resources devoted to serving parents of 
blind children
Mission of the Program
    * Introduce young children and their families to Braille
    * Provide parents literacy strategies to use with their children
    * Direct parents to essential resources for promoting success for 
their young blind children
    * Help parents promote early literacy skills, a love of reading, 
and a positive attitude about Braille through daily reading with 
their blind children

To learn more about this exciting program, or to register, please 
visit <http://www.nfb.org/readingpals>www.nfb.org/readingpals, or 
call (410) 659-9314, ext. 2295.

Cosponsored by the National Organization of Parents of Blind Children (NOPBC)




From icdx at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 28 04:26:22 2010
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:26:22 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Student Laptop Options
References: <543858.9673.qm@smtp103.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<06C64272AA164631B2673BEB7B24E1DE@7PYZPJ1>
Message-ID: <216B509293724F2D877C714F4FDBEE12@CSMC.EDU>

We bought my 7th grader a Toshiba netbook.

It works well, is small & light. It is slower than my laptop, but gets the 
job done & is more portable & less expensive.

It also has a really nice feature that many Toshiba laptops have that allows 
you to easily turn off the mouse pad completely by simply hitting Function + 
F9 -> that way you don't have to worry about the cursor accidently moving to 
some other part of the document or webpage when your finger, thumb, or 
sleeve brushes over the mouse pad.

If for some reason I need to do something with the mouse, I can easily turn 
it on & off with eth same key strokes.

Eric V






From lucas.bonnie at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 21:13:57 2010
From: lucas.bonnie at gmail.com (Bonnie Lucas)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 16:13:57 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Student Laptop Options
References: <543858.9673.qm@smtp103.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com><06C64272AA164631B2673BEB7B24E1DE@7PYZPJ1>
	<216B509293724F2D877C714F4FDBEE12@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <6CA74ACB8B964C4FB89379B6DC742B9C@LivingRoom>

Hi Eric, Does Vejas use the netbook that you got for him at school or does 
the school supply something else?
Bonnie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:26 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Student Laptop Options


> We bought my 7th grader a Toshiba netbook.
>
> It works well, is small & light. It is slower than my laptop, but gets the 
> job done & is more portable & less expensive.
>
> It also has a really nice feature that many Toshiba laptops have that 
> allows you to easily turn off the mouse pad completely by simply hitting 
> Function + F9 -> that way you don't have to worry about the cursor 
> accidently moving to some other part of the document or webpage when your 
> finger, thumb, or sleeve brushes over the mouse pad.
>
> If for some reason I need to do something with the mouse, I can easily 
> turn it on & off with eth same key strokes.
>
> Eric V
>
>
>
>
>
> 




