From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Dec  1 16:06:01 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:06:01 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] new parents with some questions
In-Reply-To: <492F1566.5010707@gmail.com>
References: <492F1566.5010707@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS7B7EA9343F1E5B0832224EB010@phx.gbl>

As far as the toy issue, we adopted twins at 3 years of age from China. 
Neither knew the first thing about toys.  It took Paul about two weeks to 
discover the toy box but all he'd do was throw them out and the was the end. 
We have all toys that make sounds so when he discovered he could make them 
do something, he started sittind down with them.  It took over a month for 
him to work through that.  Jesse, on the other hand, would just throw the 
toys away so we put him in a carseat box with nonelectronic toys that made 
sounds.  In fact, that box was the only place he was happy for about two 
months.  He still doesn't really play with them as much as self-stim with 
them--chewing, licking, etc.
Paul was affectionate from day one but Jesse took lots of encouraging.
And I'm so glad you made it back before all that hullabaloo.  Were you even 
in Mumbai?
Barbara


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jason Fayre" <jfayre at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 3:47 PM
To: <blparent at nfbnet.org>; <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindkid] new parents with some questions

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello everyone,
> I am posting this to both the blind parents list and the parents of
> blind children list, so I apologize for the cross-post.
>
> I am blind.  My wife and I just returned from India with our adopted
> son.  He is 5 years old and was born without eyes.  Unfortunately, he
> was abandoned and lived in an orphanage for at least 3 years, maybe
> more.  So, we are looking at some fairly significant delays.  For
> example, he is currently not speaking at all.  He will mimic language,
> which is a good start though.  He is also still in diapers.  He will not
> indicate when he is wet.
>  In observing and interacting with him over the past 5-6 days, I do
> have some questions.  This is our first child, so some of these
> questions may be obvious to experienced parents:
>
> 1.  self-stimulation:  He is in motion almost constantly.  If he is
> standing up, he rocks side to side and back and forth.  If he is sitting
> down, he also rocks almost constantly.  Due to the lack of attention he
> received in the orphanage, he needs to rock himself to sleep at night.
> Does anyone have any ideas to help him overcome this?
>
> 2.  somewhat frantic or manic behavior at nap or bed times:  He has
> quite a bit of trouble getting to sleep during nap time or at bed time.
> He will attempt to fall asleep, and then begin laughing, rocking very
> vigerously and sometimes mouthing various objects.  This is all of the
> same self stimulation, but he seems to get much more agitated at sleep
> time.  The sad part is, due to neglect in the orphanage, he doesn't seem
> to respond at all to one of us holding him, or trying to comfort him.  I
> am honestly not sure how to handle this.  I don't want to just leave him
> in his room.  He will get up out of bed and start walking around.  Do I
> pick him up and put him back in his bed, or just let him work it out on
> his own.
>
>
> 3.  playing:  He does not seem to have much of a concept of toys.  He
> had one toy that he liked at the orphanage, which was a baby rattle.  We
> have lots of toys here for him, but I am not sure how to introduce the
> concept of playing to him.  Most of the time, he seems content to sit
> down and rock.  If you give him something to play with, he will most
> often throw it down.
>
> 4.  School:   I am not sure how to handle getting him into school.  As I
> mentioned earlier, he is 5, but acts more like a 1-2 year old.  I know
> he could benefit from the services in the public schools such as
> ocupational therapy and speech/language therapy.  I'm not sure weather
> to try and start some of that now, or wait until the fall.  I am not a
> huge fan of home schooling.
>
>
>
> I know I will have more questions, but thats it for now.  Any help would
> be greatly apreciated.  We're feeling a bit like a fish out of water at
> this point.
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkkvFWYACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM3ppwCeMC6cm72NykN2LIEfcESHXiO3
> Sr4AnR39B9aw7Cpn6wuLuTV0TAGDBhOT
> =M9e8
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From ERobin8725 at aol.com  Mon Dec  1 17:03:10 2008
From: ERobin8725 at aol.com (ERobin8725 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:03:10 EST
Subject: [blindkid] accesible computer games for kids
Message-ID: <cd2.44f568d2.366572ce@aol.com>

Hi, I'm Eleanor Robinson.  I haven't posted on this list before, but  I've 
read the posts for a while.  I'm not a parent of a blind or VI child,  but my 
company, 7-128 Software, makes accessible computer games.
 
We strongly believe that computer games should be accessible to everyone if  
it is possible within the "gameness" of the game.  Our games are  rated for 
their accessibility on our web site.  We have games for  children ages two to 
teens.
 
The reason I am posting this is that we have just released seven  educational 
games for younger children - all self voiced and using sound clips  to 
enhance the games.  These games help a child to learn where letter  and number keys 
are on the computer as well as learning letters, numbers, words  and addition 
and subtraction concepts.
 
Our games are available for the Mac as well as for Windows.
 
Please check us out at _www.7128.com_ (http://www.7128.com) 
 
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW 
AOL.com. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)


From sek7 at cdc.gov  Mon Dec  1 20:00:55 2008
From: sek7 at cdc.gov (Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH))
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:00:55 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Cane for doll/Rene
Message-ID: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94B75@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>

I had ordered the Lakeshore Learning doll with cane, guide dog, and
harness for my daughter a couple of years ago.  The cane is not
particularly realistic; it's made of wood.  Since the doll is relatively
expensive, I wanted to share that information.
My daughter has a couple of sighted friends who made canes for their
dolls out of pencils or straws.


From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 19:01:26 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:01:26 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP
In-Reply-To: <468980f20811262200v7278ebdcw561b270a9fc9ebf0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4935860e.47c2f10a.5c1c.7f77@mx.google.com>

Dear Doug,
It is understandable why you are looking at and desiring this magnet school
program. It sounds as if she appears to all involved as academically capable
for that level and is ready to be challenged--the main reason to send her in
my opinion-the same as for any child. 

In order for it to be in her IEP you would have to show why she could not
get a free and appropriate education at her local school but could get one
at the magnet. The IDEA unfortunately says nothing about "best"
education...only appropriate. You have to show she has a unique SPECIAL ED>
need for the magnet school. It is hard for me to understand how her
blindness alone could require her to have an education there... except, does
it offer more hands on, more multi-sensory?, the time you mention to work on
her non-visual techniques, I am unclear how going to the magnet gives her
more time in her day...but these are the kinds of things that would be
specialized ed.  reasons.   

 If you could show she is hindered at her present school and helped by the
curriculum to meet her specific needs then they may agree. Then if they
place her there in the IEP-they have to take her. I would say this is a
pretty difficult standard for you to meet. And I would say that you meet it
without bias--that is, Is it truly the place where she can get access and
get the most appropriate least restrictive education?...according to her
blindness. Or is it just the best place for her mind like it might be for
any other kid of her brightness? Are you trying to "use" her blindness to
get her in--if you follow me. You will have to list the pros and cons and
her needs and build a reasoned argument according to the laws for placement
unless you have an eager team who would really like to see her there and
agrees readily that her most appropriate ed. can only happen there. 

It is likely that you will have to apply and take your chances like everyone
else, and I recommend that you do so even if you try the other route as
well. Likely everyone would prefer not to "gamble". 

 Is there another option if you get on a waiting list... a gifted route
through the main schools? Most districts have multiple avenues for gifted
kids these days. My son (blind-senior in H.S.) and current sixth grade
(sighted) daughter both did not want to travel to magnet schools but have
found gifted programs and classes in their regular schools all the way from
elementary to graduation. Every year there seems to be a new class added.

Cordially, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Doug Gottschlich
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:01 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP

Hi,

My school district (California) has a "Gifted and Talented" magnet school
for grades 3 through 8.  We are very interested in getting our daughter into
that program when she starts 3rd grade next year, and are wondering if we're
allowed to specify a particular school in the IEP.

Of course, she must have the academic ability to get in, or there is no
benefit in her going there.  However, all her teachers expect her to easily
pass the entrance exam.  The problem is that there are more students that
pass the exam than there are slots at the school.  The slots are filled by a
not-so-random lottery from the pool of eligible students that have passed
the exam.  (Its not so random because first priority goes to eligible
students whose home school is a"program improvement school" under No Child
Left Behind, second priority goes to eligible siblings of current students
at the school, and the remaining eligible students get lowest priority.)
Since we are not in a program improvement school, and because our daughter
has no siblings, her chances of  getting in through the lottery are 50% at
best.

This Gifted and Talented school focuses on "Differentiated Instruction: a
change from the traditional pace of the curriculum that eliminates
repetition, relieves students of boredom from work in less challenging
curricular areas, and allows students to use the time that they have saved
to to pursue enriching activities".  We firmly believe that this program
would significantly benefit a VI child's education: repetition is very time
consuming and unnecessary as she picks things up quickly, and the time could
be better spent on the additional VI skills needed.  We'd prefer not to
gamble with odds from the lottery, and want to write this school into her
IEP.

I'd love to hear any experiences/insights anyone may have.

Thanks,
Doug Gottschlich
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From Moni at monimarketplace.com  Tue Dec  2 21:54:27 2008
From: Moni at monimarketplace.com (Ramona L. Burgess)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:54:27 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Parents with some questions
Message-ID: <001101c954c8$90aae100$b200a300$@com>

My blind son will be 4 in 18 days and he isn't potty trained either, nor
does he really recongnize when he is wet.  I would leave the potty training
until later when he can better communicate with you.  

 

I would advise that you find him an excellent OT therapist as soon as
possible to help you find ways to address his physio/motor needs.  Having
been in an orphanage and neglected, he will have major needs in this area.  

 

Because of his physical neglect he probably doesn't understand what you are
doing when you hold and rock him.  Don't stop trying to do that.  Do it
little by little adding to the time everyday until he becomes comfortable
with your touch.  Bedtime is always a challenge.  My son sometimes gets
wound up after going to bed, because it is the first complete quiet time he
gets all day.  I was told that it can be a relief to have some quiet from
all the stimulation.  We allow Allan to get out of bed and play in his room
at night, but we will go in and remind him it is time to sleep if it goes on
too long.  We play a music quietly all night, so that it cues him that it is
sleeping time.  Anytime that music plays he knows he should be sleeping. 

 

As far as the self-stimulation, that should be reduced gradually as he
starts responding to you.  I mean that it is his way of working with the
world and until he learns other ways it will only frustrate and confuse him
if you try to eliminate too much too soon.  My son still mouths, but it is
going down.  He rocks sometimes too and we are working on that.  Our biggest
stim is that he likes to tap everything on his front teeth, Oi! We've had
our son since we adopted him at birth.you are starting with a five-year-old
who has been neglected so you will have to pretend that he is much younger
and deal with him accordingly.  This was our first child too so I can
appreciate the problems inherent in the situation.  Y'all are gonna get
there.  

 

If you don't already, get the books on tapes from the library for him to
listen to.  Even if you don't think he is attending, he is getting some
language from it.  I did that with Allan from about 9-Months.  Toys are a
learned behaviour which he doesn't have.  Find a simple baby's rattle that
is soft that he can shake and mouth.  Place it in his hand and shake it to
show him what it does.  With tactile defensive children, which your little
guy will probably be after all this, you may have to tell him that he is
going to hold it for the count of three.  You really need OT and the
brushing program to help with this.  

 

There is so much to address, but don't panic and take it day to day.try
treating him as if he was an infant and knows nothing, because that may very
well be the case.  

 

God bless you and your family,    

Allan's Mom

Ramona

 

Hello everyone,

> I am posting this to both the blind parents list and the parents of 

> blind children list, so I apologize for the cross-post.

> 

> I am blind.  My wife and I just returned from India with our adopted 

> son.  He is 5 years old and was born without eyes.  Unfortunately, he 

> was abandoned and lived in an orphanage for at least 3 years, maybe 

> more.  So, we are looking at some fairly significant delays.  For 

> example, he is currently not speaking at all.  He will mimic language, 

> which is a good start though.  He is also still in diapers.  He will 

> not indicate when he is wet.

>  In observing and interacting with him over the past 5-6 days, I do 

> have some questions.  This is our first child, so some of these 

> questions may be obvious to experienced parents:

> 

> 1.  self-stimulation:  He is in motion almost constantly.  If he is 

> standing up, he rocks side to side and back and forth.  If he is 

> sitting down, he also rocks almost constantly.  Due to the lack of 

> attention he received in the orphanage, he needs to rock himself to sleep
at night.

> Does anyone have any ideas to help him overcome this?

> 

> 2.  somewhat frantic or manic behavior at nap or bed times:  He has 

> quite a bit of trouble getting to sleep during nap time or at bed time.

> He will attempt to fall asleep, and then begin laughing, rocking very 

> vigerously and sometimes mouthing various objects.  This is all of the 

> same self stimulation, but he seems to get much more agitated at sleep 

> time.  The sad part is, due to neglect in the orphanage, he doesn't 

> seem to respond at all to one of us holding him, or trying to comfort 

> him.  I am honestly not sure how to handle this.  I don't want to just 

> leave him in his room.  He will get up out of bed and start walking 

> around.  Do I pick him up and put him back in his bed, or just let him 

> work it out on his own.

> 

> 

> 3.  playing:  He does not seem to have much of a concept of toys.  He 

> had one toy that he liked at the orphanage, which was a baby rattle.  

> We have lots of toys here for him, but I am not sure how to introduce 

> the concept of playing to him.  Most of the time, he seems content to 

> sit down and rock.  If you give him something to play with, he will 

> most often throw it down.

> 

> 4.  School:   I am not sure how to handle getting him into school.  As I

> mentioned earlier, he is 5, but acts more like a 1-2 year old.  I know 

> he could benefit from the services in the public schools such as 

> ocupational therapy and speech/language therapy.  I'm not sure weather 

> to try and start some of that now, or wait until the fall.  I am not a 

> huge fan of home schooling.

> 

> 

> 

> I know I will have more questions, but thats it for now.  Any help 

> would be greatly apreciated.  We're feeling a bit like a fish out of 

> water at this point.

 



From landjwest at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec  3 00:14:31 2008
From: landjwest at bellsouth.net (landjwest at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:14:31 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] Parents with some questions
In-Reply-To: <001101c954c8$90aae100$b200a300$@com>
Message-ID: <120320080014.4285.4935CF660008BAEB000010BD22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9C0A99060B020E04@att.net>

Congratulations! I know you are so excited and I am sure overwhelmed for now but things will get better especially with such awesome advice as this lady has shared.
I have a question for you. We adopted our child from the states. How did you go about adopting your son from India and were you looking for a special needs child? You may not want to answer this queston and that is ok if you don't but do you have to pay a fee when you take on such a challenge?I met a lady here who is looking for a special needs child from another country and they want a ton of money from them and they will not receive any help financially from here when they do adopt. Is htat correct?  I would love to hear any info on your process that you might be willing to share.
God Bless,
Laura
-------------- Original message from "Ramona L. Burgess" <Moni at monimarketplace.com>: -------------- 


> My blind son will be 4 in 18 days and he isn't potty trained either, nor 
> does he really recongnize when he is wet. I would leave the potty training 
> until later when he can better communicate with you. 
> 
> 
> 
> I would advise that you find him an excellent OT therapist as soon as 
> possible to help you find ways to address his physio/motor needs. Having 
> been in an orphanage and neglected, he will have major needs in this area. 
> 
> 
> 
> Because of his physical neglect he probably doesn't understand what you are 
> doing when you hold and rock him. Don't stop trying to do that. Do it 
> little by little adding to the time everyday until he becomes comfortable 
> with your touch. Bedtime is always a challenge. My son sometimes gets 
> wound up after going to bed, because it is the first complete quiet time he 
> gets all day. I was told that it can be a relief to have some quiet from 
> all the stimulation. We allow Allan to get out of bed and play in his room 
> at night, but we will go in and remind him it is time to sleep if it goes on 
> too long. We play a music quietly all night, so that it cues him that it is 
> sleeping time. Anytime that music plays he knows he should be sleeping. 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the self-stimulation, that should be reduced gradually as he 
> starts responding to you. I mean that it is his way of working with the 
> world and until he learns other ways it will only frustrate and confuse him 
> if you try to eliminate too much too soon. My son still mouths, but it is 
> going down. He rocks sometimes too and we are working on that. Our biggest 
> stim is that he likes to tap everything on his front teeth, Oi! We've had 
> our son since we adopted him at birth.you are starting with a five-year-old 
> who has been neglected so you will have to pretend that he is much younger 
> and deal with him accordingly. This was our first child too so I can 
> appreciate the problems inherent in the situation. Y'all are gonna get 
> there. 
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't already, get the books on tapes from the library for him to 
> listen to. Even if you don't think he is attending, he is getting some 
> language from it. I did that with Allan from about 9-Months. Toys are a 
> learned behaviour which he doesn't have. Find a simple baby's rattle that 
> is soft that he can shake and mouth. Place it in his hand and shake it to 
> show him what it does. With tactile defensive children, which your little 
> guy will probably be after all this, you may have to tell him that he is 
> going to hold it for the count of three. You really need OT and the 
> brushing program to help with this. 
> 
> 
> 
> There is so much to address, but don't panic and take it day to day.try 
> treating him as if he was an infant and knows nothing, because that may very 
> well be the case. 
> 
> 
> 
> God bless you and your family, 
> 
> Allan's Mom 
> 
> Ramona 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello everyone, 
> 
> > I am posting this to both the blind parents list and the parents of 
> 
> > blind children list, so I apologize for the cross-post. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I am blind. My wife and I just returned from India with our adopted 
> 
> > son. He is 5 years old and was born without eyes. Unfortunately, he 
> 
> > was abandoned and lived in an orphanage for at least 3 years, maybe 
> 
> > more. So, we are looking at some fairly significant delays. For 
> 
> > example, he is currently not speaking at all. He will mimic language, 
> 
> > which is a good start though. He is also still in diapers. He will 
> 
> > not indicate when he is wet. 
> 
> > In observing and interacting with him over the past 5-6 days, I do 
> 
> > have some questions. This is our first child, so some of these 
> 
> > questions may be obvious to experienced parents: 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 1. self-stimulation: He is in motion almost constantly. If he is 
> 
> > standing up, he rocks side to side and back and forth. If he is 
> 
> > sitting down, he also rocks almost constantly. Due to the lack of 
> 
> > attention he received in the orphanage, he needs to rock himself to sleep 
> at night. 
> 
> > Does anyone have any ideas to help him overcome this? 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 2. somewhat frantic or manic behavior at nap or bed times: He has 
> 
> > quite a bit of trouble getting to sleep during nap time or at bed time. 
> 
> > He will attempt to fall asleep, and then begin laughing, rocking very 
> 
> > vigerously and sometimes mouthing various objects. This is all of the 
> 
> > same self stimulation, but he seems to get much more agitated at sleep 
> 
> > time. The sad part is, due to neglect in the orphanage, he doesn't 
> 
> > seem to respond at all to one of us holding him, or trying to comfort 
> 
> > him. I am honestly not sure how to handle this. I don't want to just 
> 
> > leave him in his room. He will get up out of bed and start walking 
> 
> > around. Do I pick him up and put him back in his bed, or just let him 
> 
> > work it out on his own. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 3. playing: He does not seem to have much of a concept of toys. He 
> 
> > had one toy that he liked at the orphanage, which was a baby rattle. 
> 
> > We have lots of toys here for him, but I am not sure how to introduce 
> 
> > the concept of playing to him. Most of the time, he seems content to 
> 
> > sit down and rock. If you give him something to play with, he will 
> 
> > most often throw it down. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 4. School: I am not sure how to handle getting him into school. As I 
> 
> > mentioned earlier, he is 5, but acts more like a 1-2 year old. I know 
> 
> > he could benefit from the services in the public schools such as 
> 
> > ocupational therapy and speech/language therapy. I'm not sure weather 
> 
> > to try and start some of that now, or wait until the fall. I am not a 
> 
> > huge fan of home schooling. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I know I will have more questions, but thats it for now. Any help 
> 
> > would be greatly apreciated. We're feeling a bit like a fish out of 
> 
> > water at this point. 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> blindkid mailing list 
> blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org 
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/landjwest%40bellsouth. 
> net 


From jfayre at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 00:54:46 2008
From: jfayre at gmail.com (Jason Fayre)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:54:46 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap
Message-ID: <4935D8D6.5080609@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,
First, let me say thank you to everyone who responded to my earlier
questions about our adopted child.  I have another one.

Our child, who is 5 years old, usually takes an hour or hour and a half
nap in the afternoon.  It is almost impossible to wake him up from his
nap.  When we do try and wake him, he will often begin crying.  However,
it appears that he is not actually awake.  If you lay him back down, he
will instantly go back to sleep.  He will also not interact with us
during these episodes.  It can litterally take an hour for us to wake
him.  When he sleeps at night, he will wake on his own without any trouble.

This sounds similar to the description of night terrors, but I'm not
sure.  We tried just skipping his nap, but he will fall asleep on his
own at around 3-4 in the afternoon.

Has anyone ever experienced this?  Thanks!'
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From branlw at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec  3 01:37:07 2008
From: branlw at sbcglobal.net (Brandy with Discovery Toys)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:37:07 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap
In-Reply-To: <4935D8D6.5080609@gmail.com>
References: <4935D8D6.5080609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83368A628E4B4DFABA1991DB62FCFA3A@BrandyPC>

Hi, it is not unusual for a child to need a 2-3 hour nap at the age of 5. I 
also imagine he slept a lot in the orphanage out of boredom. Bran


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. 
Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Fayre" <jfayre at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:54 PM
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello,
> First, let me say thank you to everyone who responded to my earlier
> questions about our adopted child.  I have another one.
>
> Our child, who is 5 years old, usually takes an hour or hour and a half
> nap in the afternoon.  It is almost impossible to wake him up from his
> nap.  When we do try and wake him, he will often begin crying.  However,
> it appears that he is not actually awake.  If you lay him back down, he
> will instantly go back to sleep.  He will also not interact with us
> during these episodes.  It can litterally take an hour for us to wake
> him.  When he sleeps at night, he will wake on his own without any 
> trouble.
>
> This sounds similar to the description of night terrors, but I'm not
> sure.  We tried just skipping his nap, but he will fall asleep on his
> own at around 3-4 in the afternoon.
>
> Has anyone ever experienced this?  Thanks!'
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkk12NYACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM1kVwCg8SIw5rjXnDPLDC6pf5Ym6txE
> A2sAn0nfPRxDx9HusxoVVC8qHS08DAmr
> =ciB3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/branlw%40sbcglobal.net 




From missheather at comcast.net  Wed Dec  3 02:15:01 2008
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:15:01 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap
References: <4935D8D6.5080609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <514AAC172D75447C8E18DF9DD18D65B1@heathersony>

Hello Jason,
Your son is probably still functioning on Indian time. Check online to 
see what time it is in India.

However, as an early childhood teacher, I would like to make the 
following comments and give you the following suggestions.

Your child is five years old. He does not need a nap in the 
afternoons. I would not be putting him down for a nap at all. He needs 
to get used to not having a nap in the day.

You also say that he does a lot of self-stimulating behaviours. This 
is because he has lots of energy. I would do lots of things with him 
that use up energy.

Through my work with parents of blind children, I have found that 
people tend to forget that, although a boy is blind and sits still a 
lot if left to his own devices, he is still a boy and needs to be 
encouraged and taught to do what boys his age do. He needs to run and 
jump, to roll and climb, to walk and crawl, to push and pull. I 
wouldn't start with toys. I would start teaching him to play by 
physical interaction. Roll him over and try to get him to roll 
himself. Take him for very long walks. Get him to run to you in a 
large open area. Take him to the park or local play-ground and teach 
him to climb and slide and swing. Wrestle with him yourself and give 
him horsey rides, bouncing him on your knee, and piggy backs. Give him 
bear hugs while he lies on your chest as your lie on the floor. Roll 
over and lift your body up over his as he lies on the floor. Play hide 
and seek, pretending you can't find him. Then find him and grab him up 
in your arms and, standing up, throw him up and catch him. He needs to 
feel his energy buzz and know he is alive. He will also learn language 
more quickly when the words are associated with an action. One of 
those mini trampolines would be a good investment for him. They are 
available new at Walmart or K-mart for a reasonable price, but used 
ones of higher quality are also available on Ebay.

When your son starts to get sleepy at around 4 in the afternoons, what 
is he doing. If he is sitting doing nothing much he may well be dozing 
off to sleep out of boredom. I suggest that you make sure he is doing 
something active at that time. Having lots of energetic activity 
during the day, as well as having no nap, will ensure that your son 
develops normal sleeping patterns at night.
Regarding toilet training, I would use traing pants, and not diapers, 
with him so that he can feel the wetness and discomfort.

Although your son has developmental delays, it is vital that you head 
him towards age-appropriate behaviour as quickly and unrelentingly as 
possible. I would stop him mouthing immediately. This is a learned 
behaviour and must be unlearned as soon as possible. If he continues 
to be allowed to put stuff in his mouth, why would he bother looking 
for more socially appropriate things to do. It is always amazing to me 
why people will let blind children continue to do inappropriate 
behaviours, when they would not tolerate the same from sighted 
children of the same age. I must point out to you Jason that I am 
disagreeing with common proceedure. However, my experience has shown 
me over many years that children can be taught to stop mouthing and 
that it is just a bad habit that should have been stopped years ago. 
It is usually allowed to persist because of some misguided assumptions 
on the part of sighted people that the child needs the extra 
stimulation of mouthing because of his lack of vision. However, it is 
neither socially or educationally appropriate for a blind child to be 
allowed to constantly use his mouth instead of his hands for exploring 
objects. As the child doesn't know that others don't stick everything 
in their mouths all the time, he needs to be told to stop doing it and 
given alternative ways of exploring his world. He needs to stop 
inappropriate behaviours as soon as possible. You have way more of a 
chance now than you ever will as he grows older.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Heather Field




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Fayre" <jfayre at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:54 PM
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,
First, let me say thank you to everyone who responded to my earlier
questions about our adopted child.  I have another one.

Our child, who is 5 years old, usually takes an hour or hour and a 
half
nap in the afternoon.  It is almost impossible to wake him up from his
nap.  When we do try and wake him, he will often begin crying. 
However,
it appears that he is not actually awake.  If you lay him back down, 
he
will instantly go back to sleep.  He will also not interact with us
during these episodes.  It can litterally take an hour for us to wake
him.  When he sleeps at night, he will wake on his own without any 
trouble.

This sounds similar to the description of night terrors, but I'm not
sure.  We tried just skipping his nap, but he will fall asleep on his
own at around 3-4 in the afternoon.

Has anyone ever experienced this?  Thanks!'
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=ciB3
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_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 





From sepolansky at verizon.net  Wed Dec  3 03:39:56 2008
From: sepolansky at verizon.net (SUSAN POLANSKY)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:39:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap
Message-ID: <950402.36812.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just read the post from Heather Field and I do agree with what she said. That being said my son had sleep pattern disturbances from birth. I totally understand your description of the child who appears to be awake but truly is not. For many years from late afternoon to bedtime keeping Jason awake was a full time job. He needed to be kept on the go, if we let our guard down for a minute he would be asleep and there would be no getting him totally awake. We would have to be interacting with him constantly, we would go for walks no matter how hot or cold or wet it was outside, we would place him in the tub and sit there while he played which would not only keep him awake but usually gave him?a second wind to stay up longer. We used Melatonin at bedtime and Mountain Dew in the afternoon. It was truly a balancing act for years. Our son is anophthalmic, through a message board I am on for parents of anophthalmic children many of them have similar sleep
 pattern disturbances. Even now at age 12 he sometimes falls asleep to early, when we go to wake him it is like he is sleep walking. He still drinks a soda around 3 or 4 in the afternoon to get in a caffeine load then takes his Melatonin around 9 and goes to bed. He sleeps about 6 to 7 hours a night and that seems to be the amount he needs, he is usually up around 4 to 4:30 AM. 

Susan 



________________________________
From: Jason Fayre <jfayre at gmail.com>
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 7:54:46 PM
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,
First, let me say thank you to everyone who responded to my earlier
questions about our adopted child.? I have another one.

Our child, who is 5 years old, usually takes an hour or hour and a half
nap in the afternoon.? It is almost impossible to wake him up from his
nap.? When we do try and wake him, he will often begin crying.? However,
it appears that he is not actually awake.? If you lay him back down, he
will instantly go back to sleep.? He will also not interact with us
during these episodes.? It can litterally take an hour for us to wake
him.? When he sleeps at night, he will wake on his own without any trouble.

This sounds similar to the description of night terrors, but I'm not
sure.? We tried just skipping his nap, but he will fall asleep on his
own at around 3-4 in the afternoon.

Has anyone ever experienced this?? Thanks!'
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkk12NYACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM1kVwCg8SIw5rjXnDPLDC6pf5Ym6txE
A2sAn0nfPRxDx9HusxoVVC8qHS08DAmr
=ciB3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sepolansky%40verizon.net


From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 13:33:23 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 05:33:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
Message-ID: <901946.13413.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the Braille books and games? 

Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers have a variety of books, and they jump around in them. 

Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



      



From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 14:48:21 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:48:21 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Here is history of the
	white cane
Message-ID: <49369c3c.85c2f10a.60cb.2975@mx.google.com>

Thanks to Robert for posting this! I am so glad for this new history group!
And the writer's group! (okay--ALL our groups!)

Parents, students and teachers I think this history of the cane will give
you some perspective on just how new the cane instruction/profession is and
is still very much in a formative stage (though many O and M certified act
as if what they know/been taught are laws of nature) and why the
philosophies and levels of expertise and knowledge in the profession are so
variable. Remember kid's canes were not ever manufactured in the history of
the world until the 1980's and we are the ones who did it. In the history of
the whole world cane and travel instruction for children (even adults
relatively) is newborn--new born!

Hope you enjoy and it helps with your understanding.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:32 PM
To: NFB History Support List
Subject: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Here is history of the white cane

Hello:

     I thought I would forward this from the writer's group. There is a 
bibliography at the end.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Newman" <newmanrl at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: [stylist] Here is history of the white cane


I wrote Jeff Altman, the Nebraska Training Center travel instructor.
He has two articles dealing with the history of the cane and our use of it.
Here is the first article. There will be a second one that apparently gets
more into facts or something.
The History of Orientation and Mobility

     The use of the cane or the staff by the blind dates back to antiquity,
but the organized study of cane use is perhaps as recent as the last half of
the last century.  Cane technique as we have come to know it today, with the
use of the Long Cane, dates back to World War 11.  This is roughly fifty
years ago.  The prime mover in the technique, Richard Hoover (a man of
remarkable talent) died in 1986.

     The roots of blind mobility are often attributed to the Old Testament.
The concern for the blind is traced to Deuteronomy X.X.V.1.1., 18, "Cursed
be he that maketh the blind wander out of his way, and all the people shall
say Amen." The use of the staff by the blind has its roots in Greek
Mythology.

"The ancient Prophet Teresias was deprived of sight for an offense against
the gods, he was compassioned by the goddess Charicolo, who in pity for his
misfortune gave him a staff, by which he could conduct his steps with as
much safety as if he had use of his eye sight"

     In the Biography of the Blind, James Wilson (I 83 5) offers these
observations on the use of a cane:

"A blind man inclines to the hand in which the staff is carried, and
this often has a tendency to lead him astray when he travels on a road with
which he is unacquainted."

Wilson goes on to describe the establishment of The Asylum of the Blind in
Belfast in the year 1800.  If a formalized program for cane instruction
existed there was not made clear by Wilson.

     The first formalized system of cane travel was offered by William Hanks
Levy (I 872) in Blindness and Blind.  Levy's basic technique was as follows:
The cane is held in the right hand.  It is held vertically six inches in
front of the user.  The hand grasps the hook (crook) of the stick,
protecting the hand with the body of the cane. (Note that a straight cane
would not be usable with this method.) Before starting, "the stick should
gently sweep the ground in front." While in motion the user waves the stick
from left to right in step with the feet.

     Levy's system also includes the need for use of the other senses.
Hearing detects the approach of people and things.  Smell helps detect
landmarks.  And the use of thin shoes literally helps the traveler get the
feel of the terrain.

     The qualities of the stick are also addressed.  It needs to be light
but not elastic, so impressions can be transmitted.  The handle must be like
a hook.  Height should vary with the individual, though no measuring system
is offered.

     Levy's (1872) method for obstacle exploration is almost identical to
today's use of a cane.  However his true innovation in cane use came in
detecting drop-offs and steps:

"When steps, or other hindrances are anticipated, the stick should be
advanced to its full length, so as to perceive at the earliest possible
moment, the circumstances of the position."

This is the first recorded use of the cane extended as a probe or bumper.

     Levy (1872) did not, however, advocate truly independent travel.  This
is made clear in his descriptions of street crossings;

"Comparatively quiet streets may be crossed without a guide but those of
considerable traffic should not be attempted.  Just touching a first passer
- asking him to lead you across the street is better than risking your
neck..."

     In our next installment of the History of O&M we'll look at another
novel nineteenth century travel system from England.


The History of Orientation and Mobility, part II

     This is our second installment of the history of Mobility.  In the last
installment we looked at the system proposed by William Hanks Levy.  The
next two systems also come from England.

     After Levy, the next observations in cane travel came 24 years later by
E.F.B. Robinson (I 896) in his book The True Sphere of the Blind.  His
actual cane technique, though novel, did not prove as useful as Levy's,
however, his observations on travel and the traveler were most insightful.

     Robinson's cane technique calls for a straight stick.  To start the
traveler taps the edge of a sidewalk for the first few steps to draw a
straight line of travel.  To hold the line of travel Robinson notes that the
traveler must walk erect and quickly.  The following describes the actual
use of the cane;

"As he is in a quiet part of town he walks rapidly and balances his cane
immediately in front of him, keeping it oscillating like the pendulum of the
clock to guard his shins and knees..." (pg. 55)

Robinson made other observations about traveling in the environment.  He
noted people by "tacit agreement," walk down the right side of the sidewalk.
Like Levy, he also stresses the feeling of the surface by the feet of the
traveler.  For the cane itself, he suggests steel.  Despite the fact it is
heavy, its durability and conductivity qualities are extolled.

     World War I gave the world the first experiment with mass casualties in
this century.  The British rehabilitated their war blind at St. Dunstan's.
Sir Arnold Lawson (1922) in describing the blinded soldier in his book War
Blindness at St. Dunstan's, gives us a psychological insight into the newly
blind;

"When sight is first lost the patient is plunged into an intellectual abyss.
He finds or rather fancies himself completely dependent on others for
everything.  He cannot walk, eat, or amuse himself his every action seems to
necessitate an appeal for help." (pg.131)

To combat these problems a mobility system was developed.  Lawson describes
it as follows;

"Thus to enable him around to find his way about the building, narrow strips
of carpet, the edges of which can be detected by the stick and which each
man is provided, are laid along the corridors: and handrails where necessary
afford further help, whilst stairs are indicated by patches of rubber or
wood which feet instantly detect." (pg. 132)

This would seem to indicate the British supported an organized use of cane
for mobility.  Perhaps this statement by Sir Arthur Pearson (I 92 1), a
blinded war veteran, and later the person in charge of St. Dunstan's will
shed light on cane use;

"Not long after my sight went I gave up the use of one unless I was walking
by myself in a place I didn't know well or I was going for a tramp over
rough country... I am quite sure that I got along much better without than I
did when I depended upon one.  I walked more naturally and felt more
confident.  The experience of the men of St. Dunstan's who accustomed
themselves to this habit agreed with mine." (pg. 34)

Surprisingly, Pearson described a fairly sophisticated cane technique.  It
includes point forward, with occasional tap side to side.  He advocates
occasional sideways tap along the curb or the wall at the side of the walk
to draw a line of travel.  Though he sees the cane as the elongation of the
arm, he warns that a heavy cane is a reminder of a beggar.  This theme is an
important one in acceptance of cane use.

     Observations of the environment were also made.  He cautions the blind
traveler to pay sharp attention to the dip in the road prior to reaching the
curb.  He also warns that horse drawn carts may mask the approach noise of
fast cars.

     In our next installment we will look at Richard Hoover and the impact
of World War 11.  We will also look at the V.A.'s initial refusal to deal
with blind rehabilitation.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part III

     We left off with the british using than discarding their canes.  In the
late 1920's Seeing Eye came into being.  In the late thirties a young
instructor, Richard Hoover, at the Maryland School for the Blind had asked
the Principal, Warren Bledsoe if he could experiment with independent travel
using a cane.  The answer at that time was no.  But, World War 2 would
forever change the field of Mobility.

     A special committee was created by The Office of the Surgeon General in
the Spring and Summer of 1942 to investigate agencies for the Blind in
America and overseas.  It was believed the war was certain to create many
newly blinded servicemen.  On May 28, 1943 Valley Forge and Letterman
General Hospitals were designated the special treatment center for blind
casualties.

     Pooling its patients also meant pooling its resources.  The Army put
out its call in the ranks and to civilians to recruit personnel with
experience working with the blind.  This is how people like Richard Hoover
and Warren Bledsoe Junior found their way to Valley Forge.  Two other
individuals played significant roles at Valley Forge.  Father Thomas
Carroll, affectionately known as "the blind priest," was a frequent visitor
to Valley Forge, and Chaplain at Avon (Old Farms).  Kathern Gruber was in
charge of the program for the war blinded for The American Foundation for
the Blind.  Both would become members of the Veteran Administration's
Citizen Advisory Committee, and play key roles in the establishment of the
VA's Blind Rehabilitation Center at Hines.

     Initially, the Army believed the VA would receive discharged servicemen
and complete their rehabilitation.  In his article on the account of Army
rehabilitation of blind servicemen Colonel James Greear, suggests that is
was believed the VA would establish an institution similar to St. Dunstan's.
However, the VA refused to do this.  The matter was temporarily resolved on
January 8, 1944 when President Roosevelt made the Army the office of primary
responsibility to establish a servicing institution for blinded servicemen.

((Editor's Note: The V.A. was in the midst of a huge scandal that was being
congressionally investigated when World War 11 broke out.  All this action
was tabled.  In the light of these major problems, it is not shocking they
refused to become the sole source provider of blind rehab, a daunting task
if one expected World War I type casualties.  After the war Omar Bradley, a
five star general was appointed to head the V.A. and clean up the
problems.))

     The V.A. did obtain Avon Old Farms School in Connecticut in Spring
1944, and opened on May 21, 1944 as Old Farms Convalescent Home.  Veterans
were to go here for follow on training after their Army rehabilitation.  On
August 25, 1944, Dibble General Hospital (present day Menlo Park) replaced
Letterman.

     Colonel Greear was Chief Ophthalmologist and Hoover's commanding
officer at Valley Forge.  In recounting the Army's rehabilitation efforts
for the blind in an article in "Outlook for the Blind" (1946) he describes
how a soldier would learn orientation:

"He was expected to learn fairly quickly to get around alone with, and
without a cane; to travel easily with people; to get in and out of
automobiles, buses and trains: to go up and down stairs and escalator; to go
through revolving doors; to walk along unfamiliar streets, following
directions, and to explore unfamiliar terrain by using his cane..."

     In discussing Avon, Greear makes no mention of orientation.  Russell
Williams offers a far more telling description:

"Avon, at the outset of its establishment, held that a cane was not
necessary, modifying this doctrine to some extent as time went on with
regards to downtown travel, but always appearing to ascribe some particular
virtue to avoidance of its use whenever possible."

Warren Bledsoe recounts that the Saturday evening Post did an
article on Avon entitled "They Learn to See at Avon Farms." The use of
facial vision was the topic.  The Office of the Surgeon General got involved
in favor of the Valley Forge Program.  In the summer of 1945 they dispatched
an orientor from Valley Forge to Dibble to train staff.  This was to insure
that service-members reached Avon trained in cane use already.

In our next installment we will look at how the
Mobility program at Valley Forge really got off the ground.  Then we will
look at the resistance to it in the outside community.  As part of the last
installment a will provide a complete bibliography for those interested in
further information.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part IV

     In the last segment we looked at the establishment of special Army
training centers at Valley Forge and Dibble.  In this segment casualties
mount as the Normandy invasion begins in mid 1944.

     Richard Hoover in his writing recalls that one day at a staff meeting
at Valley Forge someone said:

     "Does anyone here think the blind people in America do a good job
getting around.  I think they do a poor job."

However, Bledsoe recalls the scene quite differently.  After the Battle of
the Bulge in December 1944, the topic of discussion at a staff meeting was
the supposed shattered morale of the newly receive blinded soldiers.  It was
Hoover who said:

"I think the first thing they need to know is how to get around.  We've been
working on it, but not enough.  People say blind people in this country do a
good job of getting around.  I don't think they do a good job.  They do a
hell of a poor job. 55

     This may have offended some of the staff in the room, but it did prompt
then Lieutenant Colonel Greer (Chief of Ophthalmology and Hoover's boss) to
examine the possibility of Orientation Training.

     By this time Hoover was ready to offer formal practical course of
training.  Colonel Henry Beuuwkes, Hospital Commander, was impressed with
Hoover's proposal.  He not only agreed to adopting his Long Cane training,
but to allow screening and selection of instructors, and the necessary
manpower to allow effective training.

     The following curriculum comes from a 1946 article written by Hoover.
Rehabilitation for the blind was slated for 16 weeks, but Valley Forge was a
treatment center which could extend the time of a soldier's stay.  The
orientation course consisted of 98 hours and was broken down as follows:

1. Travel (20 hours)
2. Special Methods (12 hours)
3. Demonstrations (12 hours)
4. Sports (12 hours)
5. Background Lectures (12 hours)
6. Discussion (10 hours)
7. Detail Duty (6 hours)
8. Tests (8 hours)

To travel independently the use of five natural aids was taught.  They
included sound, touch, scent, muscular sensation and obstacle sensation.
Hoover remarks that the first three were depended upon most, the last two
the least.

     Editor's Note: There is very little written about the training in
obstacle sensation.  The movie "Bright Victory" with Arthur Kennedy does
have a scene where he is being trained in this, and this is probably an
accurate rendition of techniques used.

     The hospital itself was the initial setting for lessons.  The first six
without a cane, the next 16 were with one.  This setting provided a
challenge to the pupil and in Hoover's words, "yet not so difficult to
invite defeat in the very beginning." The next nine lessons were taught
downtown.  Successful completion brought the pupil a furlough.  No mention
of remedial training is made, but it is logical to assume it was available.

     The gift of Valley forge goes deeper than just cane technique.  It is a
comprehensive system that includes the traveler orienting himself and
protecting himself even when a cane is not used.  Hoover's protection system
is the forerunner of the current day Upper Protective Technique.

     The cane techniques taught by Hoover are almost identical to their
successors today, the Touch Technique and Diagonal Technique.  Hoover's two
true innovations are the length of the cane, and touching it in front of the
foot about to step instead of the traditional cane and step on the same
side.

     The cane itself had been a limiting factor.  Hoover's outdoor method
(Touch Technique) called for an extended cane to follow the principle of
cane tip forward suggested by Levy.  The added length allowed a safety
margin in searching for curbs, obstacles and dropoffs.  Wooden canes proved
undesirable.  In 1945, 300 aluminum canes weighing between six and eight
ounces each were obtained.  All were a standard length of 45 inches.

     ((Editor's Note: Aluminum was used in production of airplanes,
diversion of this for cane making was a major coup of the time and shows the
emphasis given the rehabilitation effort.))

     In our next installment we will look briefly at Hoover's philosophy on
Mobility training and what happened to him after the war, the resistance in
the field, and the establishment of Hines.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part V

     In our last segment, Richard Hoover had won approval of his idea for
Mobility training for the blinded troops sent to Valley Forge.

     With the approval of Hoover's mobility plan Colonel Beeuwkes had also
agreed to the screening of additional staff as orientors.  The initial Army
move to establish Valley Forge and Dibble as blind rehabilitation centers
brought experienced staff, but now Orientors had to be recruited, screened
and trained.  In recalling the selection process Hoover describes the
following:

"It has been said that the patients were allowed a very large
amount of time to learn their basic skills (months).  Such was not the case
, however, with their instructors, who had to produce or be disqualified
within a few short weeks."

A staff of 50 was eventually selected.  The peak load at Valley Forge was
estimated at about 360 pupils.  Their actual screening method was not
recorded by Hoover, but by the time they arrived for screening Hoover had
developed his Long Cane techniques and was experimenting with them under
blindfold.  Performance under blindfold seems to have been one of the
standards required.

     Hoover was released from active duty as a First Lieutenant at the
beginning of 1947.  The VA had approved the opening of Hines on July 12,
1946.  The program would not actually begin until July 4, 1948.

     Hoover was repeatedly offered the position of being in charge of the
Blind Rehabilitation Program at Hines.  He refused repeatedly.  Instead, he
entered Johns Hopkins Medical School, and eventually became an
Ophthalmologist.  He stated; "I think the best thing you can do for the
blind is make them see." He was however, in an unprecedented move, made a
consultant to the VA Department of Medicine and Surgery while still a
medical student.

     Warren Bledsoe filled the position at Hines which Hoover declined on an
interim basis.  Later the position would be filled by Russell Williams.

     Hoover did not abandon mobility.  He continued to teach orientation
classes while in medical school and residing at the Maryland School for the
Blind.  He taught students and members from various agencies servicing the
blind community.

     Why was Hoover so concerned to teach orientation? Hoover had been
trained to work with the blind, and worked at the Maryland School for the
Blind before the war.  He offered these thoughts in 1947:

"Individuals also become functionally deficient to a certain degree when
encountering a more intricate and complex environment.  So most of us go on
to seek training and education to cope with new situations and lend
ourselves pliable to these many situations arising in the competitive
world."

Hoover goes on to compare Orientation to Plato's ideal concept of education,
which is achievement of all one is capable of:

"So, consider now, how paramount it is to give an education which
establishes an intelligently functioning sensory and motor whole which
cannot be produced in part and aims at the ultimate in education of which
Plato spoke.  Surely, walking without a guide would fall into this category
besides its being a necessity, a joy, a right and a privilege."

At Valley Forge the population was naturally servicemen.  After the war,
controversy existed over who could benefit from Hoover's program.  The Army
had dealt with once sighted male adults, who at the very least, had
previously been sighted, and in excellent health.  None had been
congenitally blind, none had been over sixty.  Hoover (1947) clearly
addresses what he thinks
is the potential target population for training:

"...this speaker believes the time to begin orientation and travel is at the
earliest possible moment.  In the case of the infant the free use of the
upper and lower extremities should be encouraged with authoritative training
beginning with creeping movements and progressively continued the adapted
throughout school years.. For those losing sight at a later age the hospital
is the place to start orientation and travel, and it should be continued
until the individual is independent and satisfied.  There is no limit as to
age, but here again, anyone entertaining the foolish notion that absolutely
everyone should learn to travel should erase such a wild idea immediately.
There are just as many in comparison, no doubt, not mentally or physically
prepared for such an event as there are those of us not adequately suited
for flying a P80."

     ((Editor's Note: It is important to consider the time that this
statement was made, and the fact that little in the way of blind
rehabilitation was being done with multiply involved individuals.  This 1947
reference is the only time Hoover expressed his thoughts on this topic in
writing, he did write other articles on establishment of the Valley Forge
program.))

     In our final installment we will look at the controversy over Mobility
training.  We will also look at the lengths the army went to distance
themselves from the controversy.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part VI

     Seeing a blind person traveling with the aid of a cane may or may not
be an every day sight for everyone, but it has certainly become a common one
in our society.  It seems incomprehensible today to fathom what all the
resistance to teaching travel skills was about.  At the very least one would
reason that independent cane travel was worth trying.  Why was there so much
bias about the idea of a person with a cane?

     Art often mirrors and colors the impression of the viewer, and society
in general.  The art with blind as subjects in western culture has often
represented them as pitiful, tattered beggars, often holding a cane.  This
idea certainly did not escape Pearson, as shown earlier.  Rembrandt's Tobias
shows a blind man reaching out, groping as if completely, hopelessly lost.
Bellange shows a blind man, staff raised to heaven, speaking or questioning.
Lagendyk and Parry each did poignant portrayals of blind beggars with canes.

     Perhaps the idea met with the same inertia all new ideas first meet.
Hoover shares this recollection of one visitor:

"We had a number of prominent visitors.  One outstanding educator of the
blind, himself sighted, seemed the epitome of mental blindness one day when
he was supposed to be observing a lesson in foot travel and spent most of
his time with his
back to the instructor and blind soldier, giving a long lecture to his host
on what a mess the Army was making of its program for the blind."

The position of the Army is very hard to define.  Colonel Greear was
supportive of Hoover and writes praises of the Orientation Program in his
1946 article.  Curiously, in an article published in May 1944 in the same
magazine, Outlook for the Blind, he fails to mention anything about Hoover
or orientation.  It is easy to suppose that the program really did not bear
fruit until 1945.

     This is true, but in the 1946 article Hoover is not mentioned either.
There is only a reference to a highly qualified enlisted man who was later
commissioned and in charge of the physical reconditioning program, which
included orientation.

The person is Hoover.  Few people are mentioned by name in the
are is another incident involving the Army and Hoover.  Hoover addressed the
American Association of Instructors of the Blind, 38th Stated Meeting, held
at Perkins School, June 24-28, 1946.  When the proceedings were published
after the meeting, Hoover is listed as Lt.  Richard E. Hoover.  His November
article in Outlook for the Blind fails to carry his military rank, though he
was still on active duty at the time of print.

     But why should people in the Army or anyone for that matter be negative
on cane use? World War 2 provided dazzling scientific breakthroughs.  Sonar
and radar were perfected.  The jet engine was invented and atomic power
introduced.  In comparison to these great scientific strides, and those that
have subsequently followed, the Long Cane or guide dog might seem primitive.
Also, there is the desire to make the blind individual undetectable to the
general public while traveling.  When considered from this standpoint,
independent travel is no longer the issue.

     Facial Perception, the magic sixth sense, seemed to be the main
competition to Long Cane travel.  The idea of something natural, internal,
replacing sight is very appealing.  Levy, Pearson and Hoover, though the
last was somewhat skeptical, mention it.  Today we know it is based on
hearing.  Ironically, in an obscure article titled "Can Orientation Be
Taught Blind Students?", published in the March 1945 edition of Outlook for
The Blind, Toger Lien comes to that conclusion.  After experiment he states:

"From this I concluded that ability to detect obstacles was entered in the
ear that the facial sensations were only secondary effect." Perhaps the
inertia to this idea is similar to the inertia facing Long Cane use at the
time."

     Why did Orientation work at Valley Forge? The had the right clients,
people who had once been independent and wanted to be independent again.
They had the right instructors, the Army had taken a new generation willing
to break from tradition.  They had the right cane, the six to eight ounce
Long Cane was vital.  They had the right method.  Levy, Robinson and St.
Dunstan's had greatly influenced Hoover, but his idea of projecting the cane
to the side of the following step was purely his own.  And finally, they had
Richard Hoover.  Bledsoe offers this assessment:

"Other hospitals had somewhat similar resources, but did not have Hoover.
He found a way not only to get the right men together to teach soldiers, but
knew how to handle both
patients and how get the best out of them."

(Editor's Note: A bibliography of the materials Bob Kozel used to research
this series is available upon request.)

REFERENCES:

Bledsoe, C.W. (1969).  From valley forge to hines: truth old enough to tell.
American Association of Workers for the Blind, Annual.  Washington, D.C.
97-137.

Bledsoe, C.W. (1983) Originators of orientation and mobility training.  In
Foundations of Orientation and Mobility, chapter 18.

Grear, J.N. (1944).  Rehabilitation of the war-blinded soldiers, Outlook for
the Blind, 38, 121-124.

Grear, J.N. (1946).  Rehabilitation of the blinded soldier, Outlook for the
Blind, 71, 271-278.

Hoover, R.E. (1946).  Foot travel at valley forge. 38th Stated
Meeting of the American Association of Instructors of the Blind, 138-143.

Hoover, R.E. (1946).  Foot travel at valley forge, Outlook for the Blind,
40, 246-251.

Hoover, R.E. (1947).  Orientation and travel technique for the blind.
Proceedings of the American Association of Workers for the Blind, 27-32.

Hoover, R.E. (1968).  The valley forge story.  Blindness 1968, American
Association for Workers for the Blind Annual, 55-65.

Lawson, A. (1922).  War blindness at St. Dunstan's, London: Frowde, Hodder
and Stoughton.

Lein, T. (1945).  Can orientation be taught blind students? Outlook for the
Blind, 39, 64-67.

Levy, W.H. (1872).  Blindness and the blind.  London: Chapman and Hall.

Pearson, A. (1921).  The conquest of blindness.  London: Hodder and
Stoughton.

Robinson, E.F.B. (1896).  The true sphere of the blind.  Toronto: Briggs.

Williams, R.C. (1972).  Orientation and mobility, background discourse.  In
R. Hardy & J Cull (Eds.), Social and rehabilitation services for the blind,
chapt. 13.  Springfield: Thomas.

Wilson, J. (1835).  Biography of the blind.  Birmingham: Showell.


(Editor's Note: The "History of O&M" is a six-part series which appeared in
the BVA Bulletin throughout 1997.  Thanks go out to Bob Kozel, the VIST
Coordinator in San Diego, for researching and writing this material.)


Robert Leslie Newman
Email- newmanrl at cox.net
THOUGHT PROVOKER Website-
Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kasondra Payne
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:46 AM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane

I believe that book was written by Tom Bickford.  M y husband and I love
that book, and we try to share that with everyone including our children's
travel instructors.  By the way, we have been thinking about writing a
children's book from the point of view of a cane.  Sighted kids hear and
read about Braille in school, but a lot of them are mystified by the cane
and what it is used for.  What do you guys think?

Kasondra Payne

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela fowler <fowlers at syix.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:21 PM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane

That book was written by Eric Woods and a few other travel instructors from
Louisiana and Minnesota.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of LoriStay at aol.com
 Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:05 PM
 To: stylist at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane

 Don't know if it will help, but get hold of "The Care and Feeding of the
Long  White Cane," a book that should be available through NFB. It was one
of  the  Kernel books, I think. If it does not have the history in it,
then the  writer most certainly will.
 Lori

 In a message dated 12/1/08 1:16:23 AM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:


 > dear Robert, and listers,
 > so far, I'm not finding such a book on the history of the cane. and,  >
what is on the web is surprisingly shallow. on a dozen or more sites  > is
identical, or nearly identical, text.
 >
 > find nothing at nls.
 > jc
 >
 > Jim Canaday M.A.
 > Lawrence, KS
 >
 >




 **************
 Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.
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From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 15:13:02 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:13:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
Message-ID: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



      



From tracey.vince at telus.net  Wed Dec  3 15:42:02 2008
From: tracey.vince at telus.net (Tracey)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:42:02 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <901946.13413.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7CE675E665B94C5E941175BBC5927DAD@Family>

Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never ending 
issue with us as well!

Tracey
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions


>
> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit 
> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40telus.net
> 





From kassyp36 at msn.com  Wed Dec  3 16:00:49 2008
From: kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne )
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:00:49 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
Message-ID: <COL109-DS2348030B5737C61B5E9E2BC3030@phx.gbl>

Debby, I absolutely sympathise with you.  Many of my books are not accessible because they are on bokcases with other things in front of them.  Storage for everything is at a premium in our small apartment.  Last year, I purchased a large cabinet for my kitchen which could probably do what you want, if you have room for something about 7.5 feet tall by 4 feet wide.  It has several shelves and double doors that swing out.  It has a closet bar which can be used or not if desired.  I found this at Lowes, and I use it for excess food like cereal and appliances like my bread maker.  It could work for games and/or books.  The cabinet was about $110, and it only came in white.  I hope this helps.  Good luck, and please tell us what you found.  

Kasondra Payne

-----Original Message-----
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:19 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org; bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the Braille books and games?

 Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.

 Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?

 Thanks for any and all suggestions!

 ?Debby
 bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



 ?????

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 blindkid mailing list
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From poetlori8 at msn.com  Wed Dec  3 16:13:46 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:13:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Parents with some questions
In-Reply-To: <120320080014.4285.4935CF660008BAEB000010BD22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9C0A99060B020E04@att.net>
References: <120320080014.4285.4935CF660008BAEB000010BD22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9C0A99060B020E04@att.net>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS15EFC7CA2210B00B740DEEB030@phx.gbl>

I think most of the adoption agencies require you to pay the money even if 
it's a special needs child.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: <landjwest at bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:14 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Parents with some questions

> Congratulations! I know you are so excited and I am sure overwhelmed for 
> now but things will get better especially with such awesome advice as this 
> lady has shared.
> I have a question for you. We adopted our child from the states. How did 
> you go about adopting your son from India and were you looking for a 
> special needs child? You may not want to answer this queston and that is 
> ok if you don't but do you have to pay a fee when you take on such a 
> challenge?I met a lady here who is looking for a special needs child from 
> another country and they want a ton of money from them and they will not 
> receive any help financially from here when they do adopt. Is htat 
> correct?  I would love to hear any info on your process that you might be 
> willing to share.
> God Bless,
> Laura
> -------------- Original message from "Ramona L. Burgess" 
> <Moni at monimarketplace.com>: -------------- 
>
>
>> My blind son will be 4 in 18 days and he isn't potty trained either, nor
>> does he really recongnize when he is wet. I would leave the potty 
>> training
>> until later when he can better communicate with you.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would advise that you find him an excellent OT therapist as soon as
>> possible to help you find ways to address his physio/motor needs. Having
>> been in an orphanage and neglected, he will have major needs in this 
>> area.
>>
>>
>>
>> Because of his physical neglect he probably doesn't understand what you 
>> are
>> doing when you hold and rock him. Don't stop trying to do that. Do it
>> little by little adding to the time everyday until he becomes comfortable
>> with your touch. Bedtime is always a challenge. My son sometimes gets
>> wound up after going to bed, because it is the first complete quiet time 
>> he
>> gets all day. I was told that it can be a relief to have some quiet from
>> all the stimulation. We allow Allan to get out of bed and play in his 
>> room
>> at night, but we will go in and remind him it is time to sleep if it goes 
>> on
>> too long. We play a music quietly all night, so that it cues him that it 
>> is
>> sleeping time. Anytime that music plays he knows he should be sleeping.
>>
>>
>>
>> As far as the self-stimulation, that should be reduced gradually as he
>> starts responding to you. I mean that it is his way of working with the
>> world and until he learns other ways it will only frustrate and confuse 
>> him
>> if you try to eliminate too much too soon. My son still mouths, but it is
>> going down. He rocks sometimes too and we are working on that. Our 
>> biggest
>> stim is that he likes to tap everything on his front teeth, Oi! We've had
>> our son since we adopted him at birth.you are starting with a 
>> five-year-old
>> who has been neglected so you will have to pretend that he is much 
>> younger
>> and deal with him accordingly. This was our first child too so I can
>> appreciate the problems inherent in the situation. Y'all are gonna get
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you don't already, get the books on tapes from the library for him to
>> listen to. Even if you don't think he is attending, he is getting some
>> language from it. I did that with Allan from about 9-Months. Toys are a
>> learned behaviour which he doesn't have. Find a simple baby's rattle that
>> is soft that he can shake and mouth. Place it in his hand and shake it to
>> show him what it does. With tactile defensive children, which your little
>> guy will probably be after all this, you may have to tell him that he is
>> going to hold it for the count of three. You really need OT and the
>> brushing program to help with this.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is so much to address, but don't panic and take it day to day.try
>> treating him as if he was an infant and knows nothing, because that may 
>> very
>> well be the case.
>>
>>
>>
>> God bless you and your family,
>>
>> Allan's Mom
>>
>> Ramona
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> > I am posting this to both the blind parents list and the parents of
>>
>> > blind children list, so I apologize for the cross-post.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > I am blind. My wife and I just returned from India with our adopted
>>
>> > son. He is 5 years old and was born without eyes. Unfortunately, he
>>
>> > was abandoned and lived in an orphanage for at least 3 years, maybe
>>
>> > more. So, we are looking at some fairly significant delays. For
>>
>> > example, he is currently not speaking at all. He will mimic language,
>>
>> > which is a good start though. He is also still in diapers. He will
>>
>> > not indicate when he is wet.
>>
>> > In observing and interacting with him over the past 5-6 days, I do
>>
>> > have some questions. This is our first child, so some of these
>>
>> > questions may be obvious to experienced parents:
>>
>> >
>>
>> > 1. self-stimulation: He is in motion almost constantly. If he is
>>
>> > standing up, he rocks side to side and back and forth. If he is
>>
>> > sitting down, he also rocks almost constantly. Due to the lack of
>>
>> > attention he received in the orphanage, he needs to rock himself to 
>> > sleep
>> at night.
>>
>> > Does anyone have any ideas to help him overcome this?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > 2. somewhat frantic or manic behavior at nap or bed times: He has
>>
>> > quite a bit of trouble getting to sleep during nap time or at bed time.
>>
>> > He will attempt to fall asleep, and then begin laughing, rocking very
>>
>> > vigerously and sometimes mouthing various objects. This is all of the
>>
>> > same self stimulation, but he seems to get much more agitated at sleep
>>
>> > time. The sad part is, due to neglect in the orphanage, he doesn't
>>
>> > seem to respond at all to one of us holding him, or trying to comfort
>>
>> > him. I am honestly not sure how to handle this. I don't want to just
>>
>> > leave him in his room. He will get up out of bed and start walking
>>
>> > around. Do I pick him up and put him back in his bed, or just let him
>>
>> > work it out on his own.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > 3. playing: He does not seem to have much of a concept of toys. He
>>
>> > had one toy that he liked at the orphanage, which was a baby rattle.
>>
>> > We have lots of toys here for him, but I am not sure how to introduce
>>
>> > the concept of playing to him. Most of the time, he seems content to
>>
>> > sit down and rock. If you give him something to play with, he will
>>
>> > most often throw it down.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > 4. School: I am not sure how to handle getting him into school. As I
>>
>> > mentioned earlier, he is 5, but acts more like a 1-2 year old. I know
>>
>> > he could benefit from the services in the public schools such as
>>
>> > ocupational therapy and speech/language therapy. I'm not sure weather
>>
>> > to try and start some of that now, or wait until the fall. I am not a
>>
>> > huge fan of home schooling.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > I know I will have more questions, but thats it for now. Any help
>>
>> > would be greatly apreciated. We're feeling a bit like a fish out of
>>
>> > water at this point.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/landjwest%40bellsouth.
>> net
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Wed Dec  3 16:17:45 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:17:45 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap
In-Reply-To: <4935D8D6.5080609@gmail.com>
References: <4935D8D6.5080609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS28EF475AAB34CA0CE8DC7EB030@phx.gbl>

What you're probably dealing with is jet lag.  Remember, he's lived in a 
time opposite ours.  It took ours two weeks to a month to adjust to our 
time.  They did the same thing.  My suggestion would be to just keep doing 
what you're doing and eventually he'll get the hang of our time.
Barbara
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jason Fayre" <jfayre at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:54 PM
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindkid] extremely difficult to wake child from nap

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello,
> First, let me say thank you to everyone who responded to my earlier
> questions about our adopted child.  I have another one.
>
> Our child, who is 5 years old, usually takes an hour or hour and a half
> nap in the afternoon.  It is almost impossible to wake him up from his
> nap.  When we do try and wake him, he will often begin crying.  However,
> it appears that he is not actually awake.  If you lay him back down, he
> will instantly go back to sleep.  He will also not interact with us
> during these episodes.  It can litterally take an hour for us to wake
> him.  When he sleeps at night, he will wake on his own without any 
> trouble.
>
> This sounds similar to the description of night terrors, but I'm not
> sure.  We tried just skipping his nap, but he will fall asleep on his
> own at around 3-4 in the afternoon.
>
> Has anyone ever experienced this?  Thanks!'
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkk12NYACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM1kVwCg8SIw5rjXnDPLDC6pf5Ym6txE
> A2sAn0nfPRxDx9HusxoVVC8qHS08DAmr
> =ciB3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Wed Dec  3 16:43:23 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:43:23 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <901946.13413.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <901946.13413.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS48BE0D0C04D37E865EC74EB030@phx.gbl>

You could try putting the pieces for the larger games in smaller boxes and 
put the boards behind a couch or on edge in the closet if there's room.  You 
could get crates and stack for books.  They don't hold many but there's more 
accessible than a cardboard box and they can be stacked.  Maybe if she has 
read some of them on the shelves and wants to get rid of them, she could put 
them in the boxes and put those boxed ones in their place?
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:33 AM
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit 
> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From k7uij at panix.com  Wed Dec  3 17:50:32 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:50:32 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
References: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <90F21F1B0BAD4C1DB32394D342587686@owner96190708e>

That would take some doing!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:13 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system


Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any 
recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?

 Debby
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents





_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
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From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 17:55:52 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:55:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Parents with some questions
References: <120320080014.4285.4935CF660008BAEB000010BD22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9C0A99060B020E04@att.net>
	<BAY113-DS15EFC7CA2210B00B740DEEB030@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <550351.58524.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Many agencies reduce the fees for special needs children. Often "special needs" may mean an older child or a sibling group, not necessarily a physical or cognitive disability. Our fees for Winona's adoption were about half the "normal" rate. And of course, international is much more expensive than domestic (within the US). There are agencies, such as the FL Baptist Children's Home that don't charge anything for a special needs adoption. At least they didn't 10 years ago!

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 11:13:46 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Parents with some questions

I think most of the adoption agencies require you to pay the money even if it's a special needs child.
Barbara


      



From smerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu  Wed Dec  3 18:38:26 2008
From: smerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu (Dr. S. Merchant)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:38:26 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <7CE675E665B94C5E941175BBC5927DAD@Family>
References: <901946.13413.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7CE675E665B94C5E941175BBC5927DAD@Family>
Message-ID: <031701c95576$54650be0$fd2f23a0$@lsu.edu>

We ended up getting Michael a loft bed so we could put a desk and shelves
under it. Then we have two other 5 row shelves besides the shelves under the
loft bed and still end up putting some books on the top of those shelves.

Math books in high school run about 40 volumes or so..... so book space
problems just keep getting worse as they get older - Sorry!

Sandy Taboada

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tracey
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:42 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never ending

issue with us as well!

Tracey
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions


>
> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit

> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40tel
us.net
> 



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blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smerchant%40mail.v
etmed.lsu.edu







From cconley at fuse.net  Wed Dec  3 18:31:09 2008
From: cconley at fuse.net (cconley at fuse.net)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:31:09 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
Message-ID: <11372976.1228329084250.JavaMail.root@wmvirt99>

Kyle loves the bowling game. We just tell him what pins he still has up and he adjusts how he throws. Hate to say it, but he usually beats us all.

Cindy

---- Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
> 
>  Debby 
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/cconley%40fuse.net




From sepolansky at verizon.net  Wed Dec  3 19:03:27 2008
From: sepolansky at verizon.net (SUSAN POLANSKY)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:03:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
Message-ID: <270478.27424.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This reads as if you are storing her school books at your home, is this correct? The school stores all of Jason's school books, mostly in each individual classroom. He pulls the correct volume and if needed brings one home for homework. Even with just the personal books space is an issue, we have volumes of Harry Pottter which he has?already read but we want to keep lined up behind the sofa. 
Susan 



________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:33:23 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the Braille books and games? 

Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers have a variety of books, and they jump around in them. 

Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



? ? ? 

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blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
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From pmcguire at knology.net  Wed Dec  3 20:23:37 2008
From: pmcguire at knology.net (Penny McGuire)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:23:37 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
References: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<90F21F1B0BAD4C1DB32394D342587686@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <8498F2666993416B8E054DB0090C3590@owner3aeecfe4a>

Hi!  I am new to the group.  Penny, mom of Chandler (girl) 10 yrs old and 
totally blind due to ROP.  She too has a Wii and loves, loves, loves the Wii 
Fitness.  She also has MarioKart which is totally visual but she enjoys 
wrecking and the noices that it brings!  Of course, none of the Wii games 
are going to be designed for a blind child ( I don't guess or else it 
wouldn't need a screen) but if they find enjoyment out of it then so be it! 
I heard that the fishing game vibrates in your hand to let you know you have 
a bite but I don't think Channy is patient enough to just wait!  They fish 
would have her worm and be gone!!!

Penny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system


> That would take some doing!
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:13 AM
> Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
>
>
> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any
> recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/pmcguire%40knology.net
> 




From pmcguire at knology.net  Wed Dec  3 20:25:36 2008
From: pmcguire at knology.net (Penny McGuire)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:25:36 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Narrated DVD's
Message-ID: <E22317D2668C4846B7869CAE7805DFD1@owner3aeecfe4a>

I have seen narrated (spelling ?) on VHS but not DVD's.  Does anyone know anything about being able to get DVD's that are narrated?? Our local library doesn't have any.

Thanks!
Penny

From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 20:33:35 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:33:35 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS48BE0D0C04D37E865EC74EB030@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4936ed30.102b400a.0b10.3047@mx.google.com>

I have the perfect solution! I will come and spend the winter in Florida and
build you a garage!

I just knew you could use a laugh today!!!!!!!!!

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:43 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

You could try putting the pieces for the larger games in smaller boxes and 
put the boards behind a couch or on edge in the closet if there's room.  You

could get crates and stack for books.  They don't hold many but there's more

accessible than a cardboard box and they can be stacked.  Maybe if she has 
read some of them on the shelves and wants to get rid of them, she could put

them in the boxes and put those boxed ones in their place?
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:33 AM
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit

> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.co
m
> 

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From aruell at nbp.org  Wed Dec  3 21:17:18 2008
From: aruell at nbp.org (Amy Ruell)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:18 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <031701c95576$54650be0$fd2f23a0$@lsu.edu>
Message-ID: <14B8D33471A74316B8A408D5912EBBB4@amy3a94b6b753e>

Can't do it with math, of course, but it sure makes the case for electronic
braille files, doesn't it?

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Dr. S. Merchant
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:38 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions


We ended up getting Michael a loft bed so we could put a desk and shelves
under it. Then we have two other 5 row shelves besides the shelves under the
loft bed and still end up putting some books on the top of those shelves.

Math books in high school run about 40 volumes or so..... so book space
problems just keep getting worse as they get older - Sorry!

Sandy Taboada

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tracey
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:42 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never ending

issue with us as well!

Tracey
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions


>
> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit

> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40tel
us.net
> 



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etmed.lsu.edu





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From smerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu  Wed Dec  3 21:23:41 2008
From: smerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu (Dr. S. Merchant)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:23:41 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
In-Reply-To: <11372976.1228329084250.JavaMail.root@wmvirt99>
References: <11372976.1228329084250.JavaMail.root@wmvirt99>
Message-ID: <033a01c9558d$6bb455a0$431d00e0$@lsu.edu>

Michael likes bowling and boxing  (Boxing is great exercise if you just keep
throwing punches as fast as you can)

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of cconley at fuse.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Cc: Debby B
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system

Kyle loves the bowling game. We just tell him what pins he still has up and
he adjusts how he throws. Hate to say it, but he usually beats us all.

Cindy

---- Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any
recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
> 
>  Debby 
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/cconley%40fuse.net


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.lsu.edu







From kah-az at cox.net  Wed Dec  3 22:10:28 2008
From: kah-az at cox.net (Kathy - Arizona)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:10:28 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <901946.13413.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CD3E96D0EAEE4849AE266DFBAD04E8BB@DKAHG>

Hi Debby!

Well, considering my daughter's been in some VERY tight quarters (with 
roommates) in college, I feel there have been some times when she's had to 
live in a cubicle-sized space - and then find things - organized enough that 
she could find them in college chaos.

I do agree with the idea of the loft-bed.  Most college kids have them. 
Also, I've learned that if you run out of floor space, you go "up".  I can't 
tell you the ceiling and around the room storage we've developed - some of 
which had to be temporary (in the dorms).  Kids love the idea of being "up" 
to sleep (can use a railing around if necessary, and a sturdy ladder for 
climbing up).  Hanging or building boxes/up and around a wall holds things 
she might not use every day (already read books, etc.).  Cubbies close to 
the top of her bed - can be reached while she's up there.  Of course, she 
might need help getting to the taller box-cubes, but you can come on down a 
wall with lots of different sized shapes.  Underneath, you almost have a 
completely other room.  We had room for a futon, refrigerator, storage for 
food/books/etc. - so this can be quite adaptable to her needs. A small 
desk/chair for studies? Computer?  Another great idea is to build a ledge 
(with a small back to keep things from falling off) around the end of one 
side of her loft, and then the long side of her loft to place little things 
like an alarm clock, trinkets, audible things, BrailleNote, cell phone, 
regular phone, a cup for water or any night-time things she might want to 
grab....even her favorite stuffed toy!  These 2 ledges are great..even for a 
lulling music box.  You can tack strings of lights along the ledge to make 
it look snazzy - maybe not to Winona, but her sighted siblings or friends 
will think it's "cool"......maybe some hanging speakers, and a hook to hold 
her headphones?

You'd be surprised what all you can cram into a small space- all in the area 
of a loft space - esp. when you built UP instead of out!  The bed ladder, as 
long as it's sturdy & secure, is an adventure within itself!  She'll love 
it!  And yes, the kids can learn to make a bed up there just as they can 
from below.  If you try this, let us know how it all turns out!  I prefer 
building a WOODEN one & sanding it well.  You can then paint it colorful, or 
put fuzzy material around it (tactile), but you can then also hammer hooks 
for towels into it, or anything else she might like to hang (maybe 
necklaces, backpacks, purses, scarves, ANYTHING!)  I know my hubby bought 
wood, kept to the specifications of the dorm room & he and her roommate's 
father knocked off 2 of them for their room in the first day we took her to 
college!  All the fathers were making them!  The girls loved them!  We even 
bought some of those plastic long beads to hang down on part of it so it 
looked kinda funky (like see-through curtains), and it kind of kept one area 
underneath a little bit more private!  Another idea is to buy some stackable 
plastic drawer-bins (sometimes on rollers, too) to either fill on the floor 
or sit on top of an already there bookcase or dresser.  Remember, up not 
out!

Lots of luck - I know you'll have fun & let her help with the ideas!  Yes, 
it's a project, but with a little help and ingenuity, anything's possible!

Hugs!

Kathy-Az




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:33 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions


> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit 
> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/kah-az%40cox.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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5:41 PM




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 22:11:21 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:11:21 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <14B8D33471A74316B8A408D5912EBBB4@amy3a94b6b753e>
Message-ID: <4937040c.092a400a.2040.3fb3@mx.google.com>

This gave me pause to put out a reminder of sorts...

Braille was always treated so negatively for my son, in addition to it being
HARD (perception of others) it was BULKY...always a PROBLEM in some way to
get it or keep it... yes it does give a reason to be thankful for electronic
and the portability, but I have been cautious to be sure and not transfer
the "hassle" factor of Braille to kids...c'mon, bulky or no...thank God and
Louis there IS Braille.

Interesting in that we once weighed one Braille volume and his math book and
the print math book was bulkier/heavier than the one Braille volume he took
home at night. SO when the TVI said (a hundred times) oh poor Jordan has to
lug around the big Braille once I did the demonstration that he did not
really have it worse in transporting home than anyone else.

We keep books all over, like Sandy and Michael, and in Rubber maid
containers in the garage, also Like Jason Jordan only takes the volumes home
from school that he needs. It indeed takes up space, but I am a book
lover--I have over a thousand of my own books on shelves at home.

Electronic is nice, but there is no replacement in feel, and in fluency
practice for building speed than with hardcopy pages of Braille.

And the offer to come to Florida for the winter is still open...I was half
serious (not about the building the garage part)

Smile,

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Amy Ruell
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:17 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Can't do it with math, of course, but it sure makes the case for electronic
braille files, doesn't it?

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Dr. S. Merchant
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:38 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions


We ended up getting Michael a loft bed so we could put a desk and shelves
under it. Then we have two other 5 row shelves besides the shelves under the
loft bed and still end up putting some books on the top of those shelves.

Math books in high school run about 40 volumes or so..... so book space
problems just keep getting worse as they get older - Sorry!

Sandy Taboada

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tracey
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:42 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never ending

issue with us as well!

Tracey
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions


>
> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit

> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40tel
us.net
> 



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etmed.lsu.edu





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ail.com




From kah-az at cox.net  Wed Dec  3 22:23:51 2008
From: kah-az at cox.net (Kathy - Arizona)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:23:51 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
References: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C0DF8D09F41B4B33AFCFF0323A3B7703@DKAHG>

Well.........back in the day of regular video games (with bits)......we knew 
a friend of Allison's (blind since birth) could play video games and beat 
her 2 sighted siblings.  She played the games just by the sounds that were 
on the game, and maybe memorizing them.  When we visited, she showed us how 
she did it, but she always beat her sisters.  Our daughter tried it, and 
with their quick reflexes as kids, she was better than my husband and I 
were!

Yes, there's some help involved, but I'm very sure she'll figure out some 
sort of enjoyment out of it....although not independently.  I'm so sorry to 
hear that with all the games out there that ARE accessible, or that can be 
made accessible for our kids to join in with others, and get a LOT more 
enjoyment out of them. There are a LOT of accessible things out there! 
Santa didn't do his research very well.
:(~   Sometimes, families are the hardest to get through to.....we've 
definitely experienced that - even much later in our daughter's life.   I 
sure hope that, in a couple of years, Santa doesn't bring her a car!  I know 
the intention was good.....yes, it's the thought that counts.  Just keep 
reminding me of that!   :) ~

Kathy-AZ






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:13 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system


> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any 
> recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents




From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 23:25:47 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:25:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <4936ed30.102b400a.0b10.3047@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <674969.41734.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

We would ALL love a garage! Come on down! 
Our winters are great. It was 45 this morning, went up to 70. No a/c, no heat. I love it!

I love the loft bed idea. We had one once, but the kids didn't like it after the first few months. Too bad, we had it several years anyway.

 
Thanks for all the ideas on storage and the Wii system.  Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:33:35 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

I have the perfect solution! I will come and spend the winter in Florida and
build you a garage!

I just knew you could use a laugh today!!!!!!!!!



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:43 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

You could try putting the pieces for the larger games in smaller boxes and 
put the boards behind a couch or on edge in the closet if there's room.  You

could get crates and stack for books.  They don't hold many but there's more

accessible than a cardboard box and they can be stacked.  Maybe if she has 
read some of them on the shelves and wants to get rid of them, she could put

them in the boxes and put those boxed ones in their place?
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:33 AM
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit

> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.co
m
> 

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From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 23:28:06 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:28:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
References: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<90F21F1B0BAD4C1DB32394D342587686@owner96190708e>
	<8498F2666993416B8E054DB0090C3590@owner3aeecfe4a>
Message-ID: <294110.15773.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Winona is the champion fisherman (woman?) at our church's father/child fishing expedition every year. She has the patience to wait, although she really doesn't have to wait long. Fish seem to gravitate to her.

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Penny McGuire <pmcguire at knology.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:23:37 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system

Hi!  I am new to the group.  Penny, mom of Chandler (girl) 10 yrs old and totally blind due to ROP.  She too has a Wii and loves, loves, loves the Wii Fitness.  She also has MarioKart which is totally visual but she enjoys wrecking and the noices that it brings!  Of course, none of the Wii games are going to be designed for a blind child ( I don't guess or else it wouldn't need a screen) but if they find enjoyment out of it then so be it! I heard that the fishing game vibrates in your hand to let you know you have a bite but I don't think Channy is patient enough to just wait!  They fish would have her worm and be gone!!!

Penny
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system


> That would take some doing!
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:13 AM
> Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
> 
> 
> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any
> recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
> 
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/pmcguire%40knology.net
> 


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From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 23:30:31 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:30:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <270478.27424.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <655214.28561.qm@web90502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

There is a set of books at school, and a set at home. Unfortunately, the books at school are all stored in the "Vision Room" other than the one they are currently in. Which means many times Winona is without a book because the teacher skipped around, or they finished a volume, and no one is willing to go downstairs to get it.

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: SUSAN POLANSKY <sepolansky at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:03:27 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

This reads as if you are storing her school books at your home, is this correct? The school stores all of Jason's school books, mostly in each individual classroom. He pulls the correct volume and if needed brings one home for homework. Even with just the personal books space is an issue, we have volumes of Harry Pottter which he has already read but we want to keep lined up behind the sofa. 
Susan 



________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:33:23 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the Braille books and games? 

Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers have a variety of books, and they jump around in them. 

Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



      

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From jjordan_pa at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 00:11:44 2008
From: jjordan_pa at yahoo.com (jjordan_pa at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 00:11:44 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
In-Reply-To: <C0DF8D09F41B4B33AFCFF0323A3B7703@DKAHG>
References: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com><C0DF8D09F41B4B33AFCFF0323A3B7703@DKAHG>
Message-ID: <319073006-1228349899-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1692505573-@bxe016.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Arianna (8) loves the Wii music module. Piano, violin, drums and conducting are all favorites.  
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kathy - Arizona" <kah-az at cox.net>

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:23:51 
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,\(for parents of blind children\)<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system


Well.........back in the day of regular video games (with bits)......we knew 
a friend of Allison's (blind since birth) could play video games and beat 
her 2 sighted siblings.  She played the games just by the sounds that were 
on the game, and maybe memorizing them.  When we visited, she showed us how 
she did it, but she always beat her sisters.  Our daughter tried it, and 
with their quick reflexes as kids, she was better than my husband and I 
were!

Yes, there's some help involved, but I'm very sure she'll figure out some 
sort of enjoyment out of it....although not independently.  I'm so sorry to 
hear that with all the games out there that ARE accessible, or that can be 
made accessible for our kids to join in with others, and get a LOT more 
enjoyment out of them. There are a LOT of accessible things out there! 
Santa didn't do his research very well.
:(~   Sometimes, families are the hardest to get through to.....we've 
definitely experienced that - even much later in our daughter's life.   I 
sure hope that, in a couple of years, Santa doesn't bring her a car!  I know 
the intention was good.....yes, it's the thought that counts.  Just keep 
reminding me of that!   :) ~

Kathy-AZ






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:13 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system


> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any 
> recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents


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From sepolansky at verizon.net  Thu Dec  4 00:53:58 2008
From: sepolansky at verizon.net (SUSAN POLANSKY)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:53:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
Message-ID: <283594.36312.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

We have in the IEP that the boooks will be stored in the rooms so that Jason has equal access to his books as the other students. 

Susan 




________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:30:31 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

There is a set of books at school, and a set at home. Unfortunately, the books at school are all stored in the "Vision Room" other than the one they are currently in. Which means many times Winona is without a book because the teacher skipped around, or they finished a volume, and no one is willing to go downstairs to get it.

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: SUSAN POLANSKY <sepolansky at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:03:27 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

This reads as if you are storing her school books at your home, is this correct? The school stores all of Jason's school books, mostly in each individual classroom. He pulls the correct volume and if needed brings one home for homework. Even with just the personal books space is an issue, we have volumes of Harry Pottter which he has already read but we want to keep lined up behind the sofa. 
Susan 



________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:33:23 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the Braille books and games? 

Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers have a variety of books, and they jump around in them. 

Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



? ? ? 

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? ? ? 

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 00:58:20 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:58:20 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <655214.28561.qm@web90502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com>

Dear Debby-

Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.

 

Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
the same kind of character.

Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)

 

It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.

 

"Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
blind student or employee to succeed. 

 

I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile.. 

 

Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Debby B
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

 

There is a set of books at school, and a set at home. Unfortunately, the
books at school are all stored in the "Vision Room" other than the one they
are currently in. Which means many times Winona is without a book because
the teacher skipped around, or they finished a volume, and no one is willing
to go downstairs to get it.

 

 Debby 

bwbddl at yahoo.com

www.nfbflorida.org/parents

 

 

 

----- Original Message ----

From: SUSAN POLANSKY <sepolansky at verizon.net>

To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>

Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:03:27 PM

Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

 

This reads as if you are storing her school books at your home, is this
correct? The school stores all of Jason's school books, mostly in each
individual classroom. He pulls the correct volume and if needed brings one
home for homework. Even with just the personal books space is an issue, we
have volumes of Harry Pottter which he has already read but we want to keep
lined up behind the sofa. 

Susan 

 

 

 

________________________________

From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>

To: Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:33:23 AM

Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

 

We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no
basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the
Braille books and games? 

 

Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with
her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books
that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books,
and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers
have a variety of books, and they jump around in them. 

 

Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game
cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit
into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible and
yet not sitting around to be tripped over?

 

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

 

Debby 

bwbddl at yahoo.com

www.nfbflorida.org/parents

 

 

 

      

 

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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org

To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:

http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/sepolansky%40veriz
on.net

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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:

http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bwbddl%40yahoo.com

 

 

 

      

 

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blindkid:

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ail.com



From blindchildren at verizon.net  Thu Dec  4 01:52:46 2008
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:52:46 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
Message-ID: <mailman.28.1593446440.14746.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>

Looking for the perfect holiday gift for that blind person in your 
life???  Check out this idea!
Carol
-------------- next part --------------
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From debrabaxley at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec  4 15:09:33 2008
From: debrabaxley at bellsouth.net (Debra Baxley)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:09:33 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS48BE0D0C04D37E865EC74EB030@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000601c95622$51192910$6101a8c0@DEBRA>

Try the rubbermade tote boxes from Walmart Super Center; the bookbags on
wheels work very well for Braille books.

Debra

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:43 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

You could try putting the pieces for the larger games in smaller boxes and 
put the boards behind a couch or on edge in the closet if there's room.  You

could get crates and stack for books.  They don't hold many but there's more

accessible than a cardboard box and they can be stacked.  Maybe if she has 
read some of them on the shelves and wants to get rid of them, she could put

them in the boxes and put those boxed ones in their place?
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:33 AM
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions

> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even fit

> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.co
m
> 

_______________________________________________
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blindkid at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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south.net
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: 12/3/2008
5:41 PM




From agrima at nbp.org  Thu Dec  4 01:59:39 2008
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:59:39 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] NBP-Announce: Anna Dresner's 'It's Not on the Keyboard:
 Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word'
Message-ID: <auto-000077332336@mailfront2.g2host.com>

It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign
Languages in Word
By Anna Dresner
In braille, PortaBook, or ASCII Text, $5

Accents, the copyright symbol, the yen sign, diacritical marks,
alphabets such as Cyrillic-if you use a screen reader or braille display
and need to type characters that aren't on the standard keyboard, this
booklet will help!

This book covers the two scenarios in which you might want to type such
characters: One, if you need to type things like the copyright symbol,
the yen sign, or an e with an acute accent but are working primarily in
English; and two, if you want to type in a language that uses many
symbols that aren't on the standard keyboard or are in a completely
different alphabet, and you want to have them all readily available on
the keyboard. Author Anna Dresner also covers how to work in a foreign
language, and offers helpful tips such as controlling the AutoCorrect
feature and making shortcut keys for symbols.


Check out the table of contents:
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/SPECIAL.html


******
To order any books, send payment to:
NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext
20. Or order any of our books online at
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html .


_______________________________________________
Nbp mailing list
Nbp at nbp.org

PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and 
your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org .

Visit us at http://www.nbp.org




From g_tene305 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 02:08:12 2008
From: g_tene305 at yahoo.com (Tene Gibson)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:08:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system
References: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C0DF8D09F41B4B33AFCFF0323A3B7703@DKAHG>
Message-ID: <261311.61417.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I bought the Wii because Na'im needed the exercise (steroid fat, and not receptive to good old fashion exercise) and the playstation and xbox were not giving it to him.? He loves boxing, bowling, tennis, and table tennis (Mario and Sonic at the Olympic games).. He is a bronze medal holder.? Na'im plays fighting games mostly on? all gaming systems, but the Wii encourages him to get off his "patukus".? If there is enjoyment gotten from the system, then it is accessible as far as I am concerned. The system I regret is the Xbox 360.




________________________________
From: Kathy - Arizona <kah-az at cox.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:23:51 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system

Well.........back in the day of regular video games (with bits)......we knew a friend of Allison's (blind since birth) could play video games and beat her 2 sighted siblings.? She played the games just by the sounds that were on the game, and maybe memorizing them.? When we visited, she showed us how she did it, but she always beat her sisters.? Our daughter tried it, and with their quick reflexes as kids, she was better than my husband and I were!

Yes, there's some help involved, but I'm very sure she'll figure out some sort of enjoyment out of it....although not independently.? I'm so sorry to hear that with all the games out there that ARE accessible, or that can be made accessible for our kids to join in with others, and get a LOT more enjoyment out of them. There are a LOT of accessible things out there! Santa didn't do his research very well.
:(~? Sometimes, families are the hardest to get through to.....we've definitely experienced that - even much later in our daughter's life.? I sure hope that, in a couple of years, Santa doesn't bring her a car!? I know the intention was good.....yes, it's the thought that counts.? Just keep reminding me of that!? :) ~

Kathy-AZ






----- Original Message ----- From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:13 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system


> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
> 
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents


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From JFreeh at nfb.org  Thu Dec  4 02:30:47 2008
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:30:47 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] =?iso-8859-1?q?NFB=92s_Target_Lawsuit_Settlement_May_M?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?ean_Money__for_You_=96_Check_out_www=2Enfbtargetlawsuit=2E?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?com__now!?=
Message-ID: <auto-000077335161@mailfront2.g2host.com>


NFB?s Target Lawsuit Settlement May Mean Money 
for You ? Check out 
<http://www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com/>www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com now!


Are you legally blind?  Have you tried to access 
the goods or services on Target.com using 
screen-reader software while you were in the 
State of California at any time between February 
7, 2003 and December 9, 2008?  Did you have 
trouble using that Web site?  If so, you are 
probably eligible to receive up to $7,000.00 from 
Target under terms of the settlement between that 
company and the National Federation of the Blind 
(NFB).  However, you have to apply, and time is 
rapidly running out.  To be eligible, you must 
fill out and submit a claim form by no later than January 8, 2009.



There are two ways to get the claim form.  The 
easiest way is to go to 
<http://www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com/>www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com. 
You will find the claim form, instructions, and 
other information.  You may also request a claim 
form from: NFB v. Target Claims Administrator, 
RG2 Claims Administration LLC, P.O. Box 59479, 
Philadelphia, PA 19102-9479 (866-742-4955).



There is still time for you to submit your 
claim.  The form may be submitted online by 
January 8, 2009, or mailed to the address above, postmarked by that date.



You do not have to be an NFB member to qualify.


Jessica A. Freeh
Public Relations Assistant
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
1800 Johnson Street
Baltimore, Maryland  21230
Telephone:  (410) 659-9314, ext. 2348
E-mail:  <mailto:jfreeh at nfb.org>jfreeh at nfb.org




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Thu Dec  4 04:50:57 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:50:57 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <4937040c.092a400a.2040.3fb3@mx.google.com>
References: <4937040c.092a400a.2040.3fb3@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS1E13C4F84F17335ED1AC2EB020@phx.gbl>

I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I 
actually did help my parents build so know how.

LOL!
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:11 PM
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

> This gave me pause to put out a reminder of sorts...
>
> Braille was always treated so negatively for my son, in addition to it 
> being
> HARD (perception of others) it was BULKY...always a PROBLEM in some way to
> get it or keep it... yes it does give a reason to be thankful for 
> electronic
> and the portability, but I have been cautious to be sure and not transfer
> the "hassle" factor of Braille to kids...c'mon, bulky or no...thank God 
> and
> Louis there IS Braille.
>
> Interesting in that we once weighed one Braille volume and his math book 
> and
> the print math book was bulkier/heavier than the one Braille volume he 
> took
> home at night. SO when the TVI said (a hundred times) oh poor Jordan has 
> to
> lug around the big Braille once I did the demonstration that he did not
> really have it worse in transporting home than anyone else.
>
> We keep books all over, like Sandy and Michael, and in Rubber maid
> containers in the garage, also Like Jason Jordan only takes the volumes 
> home
> from school that he needs. It indeed takes up space, but I am a book
> lover--I have over a thousand of my own books on shelves at home.
>
> Electronic is nice, but there is no replacement in feel, and in fluency
> practice for building speed than with hardcopy pages of Braille.
>
> And the offer to come to Florida for the winter is still open...I was half
> serious (not about the building the garage part)
>
> Smile,
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Amy Ruell
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:17 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Can't do it with math, of course, but it sure makes the case for 
> electronic
> braille files, doesn't it?
>
> Amy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Dr. S. Merchant
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:38 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>
> We ended up getting Michael a loft bed so we could put a desk and shelves
> under it. Then we have two other 5 row shelves besides the shelves under 
> the
> loft bed and still end up putting some books on the top of those shelves.
>
> Math books in high school run about 40 volumes or so..... so book space
> problems just keep getting worse as they get older - Sorry!
>
> Sandy Taboada
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Tracey
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:42 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never 
> ending
>
> issue with us as well!
>
> Tracey
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
> Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>
>>
>> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no
>> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the
>> Braille books and games?
>>
>> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with
>> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books
>> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books,
>> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers
>> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>>
>> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game
>> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even 
>> fit
>
>> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible
>> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>>
>> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>>
>> Debby
>> bwbddl at yahoo.com
>> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40tel
> us.net
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smerchant%40mail.v
> etmed.lsu.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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> 



From pmcguire at knology.net  Thu Dec  4 10:21:39 2008
From: pmcguire at knology.net (Penny McGuire)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 05:21:39 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system----Wii Boogie
References: <872178.25687.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com><C0DF8D09F41B4B33AFCFF0323A3B7703@DKAHG>
	<261311.61417.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5BF46E3E01A14B68AA5097C998C12AD9@owner3aeecfe4a>

Does anyone know anything about the Wii Boogie??

Thanks,
Penny


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tene Gibson" <g_tene305 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system


I bought the Wii because Na'im needed the exercise (steroid fat, and not 
receptive to good old fashion exercise) and the playstation and xbox were 
not giving it to him. He loves boxing, bowling, tennis, and table tennis 
(Mario and Sonic at the Olympic games).. He is a bronze medal holder. Na'im 
plays fighting games mostly on all gaming systems, but the Wii encourages 
him to get off his "patukus". If there is enjoyment gotten from the system, 
then it is accessible as far as I am concerned. The system I regret is the 
Xbox 360.




________________________________
From: Kathy - Arizona <kah-az at cox.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:23:51 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Wii system

Well.........back in the day of regular video games (with bits)......we knew 
a friend of Allison's (blind since birth) could play video games and beat 
her 2 sighted siblings. She played the games just by the sounds that were on 
the game, and maybe memorizing them. When we visited, she showed us how she 
did it, but she always beat her sisters. Our daughter tried it, and with 
their quick reflexes as kids, she was better than my husband and I were!

Yes, there's some help involved, but I'm very sure she'll figure out some 
sort of enjoyment out of it....although not independently. I'm so sorry to 
hear that with all the games out there that ARE accessible, or that can be 
made accessible for our kids to join in with others, and get a LOT more 
enjoyment out of them. There are a LOT of accessible things out there! Santa 
didn't do his research very well.
:(~ Sometimes, families are the hardest to get through to.....we've 
definitely experienced that - even much later in our daughter's life. I sure 
hope that, in a couple of years, Santa doesn't bring her a car! I know the 
intention was good.....yes, it's the thought that counts. Just keep 
reminding me of that! :) ~

Kathy-AZ






----- Original Message ----- From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:13 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Wii system


> Looks Santa, aka my parents, are buying the grandkids a Wii system. Any 
> recommendations on games that are accessible to the totally blind on it?
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents


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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
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From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 12:35:03 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 04:35:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I need my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher "it's okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current volume, the next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings with everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 minutes, with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs hall, resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe in a box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.

Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI wouldn't have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor she could use. Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to color in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and crayons. I was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to this math lesson.

Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes straight to Winona to work things out.

Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was finally spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" and chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since the TVI "had no time" to do it.

Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all share the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left my book at school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our blind kids are allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.

Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be  brought up at the meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way to hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We all know there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which includes our elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on the teacher end of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, which included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being done in our own county!

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Dear Debby-

Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.



Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
the same kind of character.

Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)



It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.



"Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
blind student or employee to succeed. 



I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile.. 



Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc


      



From tjmaries at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 13:49:10 2008
From: tjmaries at yahoo.com (T. J.)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 05:49:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com>
	<723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Debby, Can you tell me how the screen board was made?? It sounds like siomething I need.

T. J.




________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:35:03 AM
Subject: [blindkid] books and school

This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I need my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher "it's okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current volume, the next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings with everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 minutes, with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs hall, resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe in a box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.

Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI wouldn't have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor she could use. Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to color in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and crayons. I was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to this math lesson.

Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes straight to Winona to work things out.

Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was finally spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" and chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since the TVI "had no time" to do it.

Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all share the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left my book at school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our blind kids are allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.

Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be? brought up at the meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way to hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We all know there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which includes our elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on the teacher end of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, which included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being done in our own county!

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Dear Debby-

Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.



Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
the same kind of character.

Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)



It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.



"Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
blind student or employee to succeed. 



I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile.. 



Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc


? ? ? 

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com



      

From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 14:13:24 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:13:24 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Part 2- History of long
	cane and theblind
Message-ID: <4937e58a.232d400a.1e1e.7b6f@mx.google.com>

History of the cane part two...thanks again Robert!

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:23 PM
To: NFB History Support List
Subject: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Part 2- History of long cane and
theblind

Hello:

     Here is the second article on this subject. Not sure why the first 
article was assembled from six pieces.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Newman" <newmanrl at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:37 PM
Subject: [stylist] Part 2- History of long cane and the blind


> Here is Jeff Altman's article which was published in the
> "Encyclopedia of Disability 2008."
>
>
> Headword#857
> Jeff Altman
> Mar. 08
>
> Long Canes
>
> The use of a cane or a long staff as an adaptive tool for independent 
> travel
> by the BLIND has been documented throughout much of history. 
> Traditionally,
> the "long cane" is so named because it is much longer than the orthopedic
> cane; when held vertically, it often reaches to the middle of the chest, 
> or
> to the height between the individual's chin and nose. Long canes are often
> referred to as "white canes" but they are not always the same. The latter
> refers to any cane that is white in color (sometimes with a red tip) and 
> has
> primarily been viewed as a means of identifying blind persons so that they
> might receive assistance and additional consideration from the normally
> sighted public. This traditional view of the cane's coloring continues to 
> be
> held by many members of the public, but among blind Americans the long 
> white
> cane increasingly has become a symbol of independence. Changes in long 
> came
> technology, usage, and instruction reflect the changing history of blind
> people.
> In the colonial period canes were usually made of wood or bamboo,
> although even steel was sometimes used in spite of the disadvantages 
> created
> by this material's weight. Often these canes were hand-made by blind 
> persons
> themselves, their family members, or by local artisans. These early canes
> usually reflected the individual user's needs, preferences, and 
> experiences
> interacting with the environment.
> With the industrial revolution in the 1800s, manufactured canes designed 
> to
> meet the needs of persons with orthopedic disabilities became more common,
> and often blind persons adopted these for their own use. The availability
> and abundance of well-made canes promoted this choice, but other 
> motivations
> influenced blind people's decisions to use these kinds of canes.  The long
> staff, in spite of its many advantages as a travel tool, carried the
> symbolic and centuries-old STIGMA associated with blind beggars. Less
> conspicuous, orthopedic canes enabled some blind people to "pass" as less
> disabled.
> Historically, the manner in which blind persons used the cane varied from
> one individual to another, and most blind travelers developed their own 
> cane
> techniques, although throughout history blind persons commonly have shared
> their knowledge with one another. In the late 1800s, some European schools
> began developing formalized training for independent travel by the blind,
> which in most cases did not specifically address the effective use of the
> cane.  In the United States, such training was commonly presented by a
> member of the teaching staff at residential schools for the blind. Usually

> a
> blind Physical Fitness instructor introduced use of the cane and basic
> travel techniques to students in the weeks just before graduation.
> World War II contributed to the rise of standardized methods for using the
> cane as a tool for independent travel as many blinded veterans returned 
> from
> the battlefields. Dr. Richard Hoover of the Valley Forge Army Hospital is
> credited with first introducing a longer cane specifically designed to 
> meet
> the needs of non-visual travel, and to standardize an effective technique
> for the use of the long cane. When held vertically, Hoover's cane reached
> roughly to the middle of the individual's chest. The "two point touch," or
> "two tap," technique he developed involved arcing the cane evenly across 
> the
> traveler's body, opposite of the person's footsteps, so that the cane 
> clears
> effectively for obstacles ahead, allowing the person time to react.
> These conventional canes have changed little in their design since the
> 1940s. They have been commonly made of aluminum, although with the
> development of lighter weight, more durable materials, fiberglass or 
> carbon
> fiber have become more common. Designed for the purpose of independent
> non-visual travel, their length is usually determined by factors such as 
> the
> individual's height, length of stride, and personal preferences for
> successfully interacting with the environment. One exception is the
> different types of cane tips.  Early developers and users recognized that
> canes wore down over time from the friction created when it contacted the
> ground, or  became stuck on surfaces such as concrete. Early cane tips 
> were
> only slightly larger in diameter than the cane shaft and either made of
> metal or nylon. Beginning in the 1980s, new types of cane tips were
> developed to address problems caused by sidewalk cracks and changes in
> techniques.
> Other cane styles trace their development to the mid to late 1950s and the
> organized blindness movement, specifically from the efforts of  the 
> NATIONAL
> FEDERATION OF THE BLIND. These canes emerged from the collective knowledge
> of blind persons themselves. These canes tend to be longer and lighter, 
> with
> tapered, hollow, semi flexible, fiberglass shafts; they also have metal 
> tips
> designed to produce superior auditory and tactile information that aids 
> the
> traveler with echolocation and recognizing changes in surfaces.
> Since World War II, two significantly different models for instruction in
> non-visual independent travel skills have emerged. Clinical settings, most
> predominantly associated with Dr. Richard Hoover's pioneering work, 
> defined
> one approach. Clinical proponents identified with the MEDICAL MODEL coined
> the term "Orientation and Mobility."  This term refers to instruction that
> assists the blind person to learn techniques that allow him or her to 
> remain
> oriented, while moving safely through the environment.
> Building  from the medical and military training models of the 1940s
> Conventional Orientation and Mobility  instructors tend to view their role
> similarly to that of an occupational therapist, seeking ways to reduce the
> blind person's level of dependency by enhancing the use of their remaining
> vision, and introducing non-visual techniques only where necessary. Under
> this model, expertise is considered  the intellectual property of the
> professional instructors, who are wholly responsible for the safety of 
> their
> students, lessons are presented in a set sequence of steps formulated by
> experts in the field, and reinforced with students through repetition and
> interaction with the instructor. Because of this instructional approach, 
> and
> the belief that independent travel for the blind is complex, difficult, 
> and
> potentially dangerous, for many years professionals in this model
> considered it ineffective and unsafe for blind persons to enter the field.
> As a result, the certification process associated with conventional
> Orientation and Mobility resisted providing certification to qualified 
> blind
> and visually impaired instructors until well after the enactment of the 
> 1990
> AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT.
> The other model for instruction in non-visual travel skills resulted from
> the organized blindness movement and was based upon the collective 
> knowledge
> of blind persons themselves. Beginning in 1958 Dr. KENNETH JERNIGAN
> developed this model, building from the philosophical approach of the
> National Federation of the Blind that generated a consumer-driven model of
> rehabilitation for the blind. In this model, often referred to as the 
> "Iowa
> model," the instructor's role is to assist the student to develop a highly
> functional non-visual understanding of the environment and personal
> expertise with non-visual travel.  In other words, the body of knowledge,
> and the locus of control, are as quickly as possible transferred from the
> instructor to the student. This model has since been defined within the
> framework of "cognitive learning theory," through the work of Richard
> Mettler in 1995 and As a result, this model of Orientation and Mobility is
> commonly referred to as "Structured Discovery. This approach now also 
> offers
> a university level program for instructor preparation and certification.
> Changes in cane use and the educational practices for cane usage reflect
> larger historical progressions in disability history. The history of the
> long cane demonstrates the powerful links between adaptive devices,
> rehabilitation, medical and social interpretations of blindness, as well 
> as
> ACTIVISM, COMMUNITY, and EMPOWERMENT.
>
> Jeff Altman
>
>
> See also  ASSISTIVE DEVICES AND ADAPTIVE TECHNOLOGY
>
> Further Reading
> Hill, P. and P. Ponder. Orientation And Mobility, A Guide For The
> Practitioner. New York, American Foundation For The Blind, 1976.
> Jernigan, K. "The Nature Of Independence: An Address Delivered To The
> National Convention Of: The National Federation Of The Blind." Dallas,
> Texas, July 6, 1993.
> Kozel, R.  "The History Of O&M." Blinded Veterans Association Bulletin, 
> 1997
> Mettler R. "The cognitive paradigm for teaching cane travel :Orientation 
> and
> Mobility for Blind People." American Rehabilitation 23, no. 3 
> (Autumn-Winter
> 1997): 18-23.
> Olson, C. On The Use Of The Blindfold. Lincoln NE: Nebraska Department of
> Public Institutions, Division of Rehabilitation Services for the Visually
> Impaired, 1982.
> Morais, M. E.,  P. Lorensen, R. Allen,  E. C.Bell, A. Hill, and E. Woods.
> Techniques Used By Blind Cane Travel Instructors, A Practical Approach,
> Learning, Teaching, Believing. Baltimore, The National Federation of the
> Blind, 1997.
>
> President NFB Writers' Division
> Robert Leslie Newman
> Email- newmanrl at cox.net
> Division Website-
> Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> stylist:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlin
k.net 


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From landjwest at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec  4 14:34:44 2008
From: landjwest at bellsouth.net (landjwest at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:34:44 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
Message-ID: <120420081434.3246.4937EA840000EB7A00000CAE22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9C0A99060B020E04@att.net>

That was the funniest thing I have ever seen. Thanks for making my day!
L:aura
-------------- Original message from Carol Castellano <blindchildren at verizon.net>: -------------- 


> Looking for the perfect holiday gift for that blind person in your 
> life??? Check out this idea! 
> Carol 


From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 14:42:01 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:42:01 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
In-Reply-To: <723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4937ec3e.1e2a400a.1f7a.4c86@mx.google.com>

Go Winona! This is great news, and I bet that was empowering for her (wish
she didn't have to this way but...). They really need to get a book cart in
each room, you can call a new IEP meeting over that--this is fundamentally
important and ridiculous and a broad spectrum failure of the staff--LAZY!!!

Listen Debby I think you are getting close to the real possiblility of
getting this woman fired (which she clearly should be!) or her to quit in
frustration. You are already getting the principal on your side. All these
things should be documented and sent to the HUMAN RESOURCES department with
a formal request that the complaints be in her personnel file.

In our case two people over the years mysteriously left the district after
we filed complaints. Also I know of another parent who complained to human
resources after the TVI made derogatory remarks about blindness and
albinism-she was not fired but after a year of hell and trying the normal
chain of command failed was finally--immediately--removed from teaching that
child. I know of professionals (supervisors) who have used giving poor
reviews in the personnel file and the TVI quits...

Give human resources a try...you have nothing to lose at this point.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Debby B
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:35 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] books and school

This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I need
my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher "it's
okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current volume, the
next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings with
everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 minutes,
with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs hall, resource
room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small rooms. By the time
Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe in a box?), and got back to
class she would have missed the class.

Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona
provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for
math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI wouldn't
have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor she could use.
Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to color
in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and crayons. I
was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. Otherwise, she
would have been simply sitting and listening to this math lesson.

Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes straight
to Winona to work things out.

Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was finally
spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" and
chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since the TVI
"had no time" to do it.

Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all share
the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left my book at
school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our blind kids are
allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.

Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be  brought up at the
meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way to hook
the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We all know
there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which includes our
elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on the teacher end
of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, which included
plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I could see her
work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being done in our own county!

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Dear Debby-

Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.



Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
the same kind of character.

Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)



It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.



"Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
blind student or employee to succeed. 



I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile.. 



Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc


      

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 14:58:44 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:58:44 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS1E13C4F84F17335ED1AC2EB020@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4937f029.1b3e400a.2014.fffff57c@mx.google.com>

Super! You build I'll supervise!
You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
keeps getting bigger and bigger!

 Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I 
actually did help my parents build so know how.

LOL!
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:11 PM
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

> This gave me pause to put out a reminder of sorts...
>
> Braille was always treated so negatively for my son, in addition to it 
> being
> HARD (perception of others) it was BULKY...always a PROBLEM in some way to
> get it or keep it... yes it does give a reason to be thankful for 
> electronic
> and the portability, but I have been cautious to be sure and not transfer
> the "hassle" factor of Braille to kids...c'mon, bulky or no...thank God 
> and
> Louis there IS Braille.
>
> Interesting in that we once weighed one Braille volume and his math book 
> and
> the print math book was bulkier/heavier than the one Braille volume he 
> took
> home at night. SO when the TVI said (a hundred times) oh poor Jordan has 
> to
> lug around the big Braille once I did the demonstration that he did not
> really have it worse in transporting home than anyone else.
>
> We keep books all over, like Sandy and Michael, and in Rubber maid
> containers in the garage, also Like Jason Jordan only takes the volumes 
> home
> from school that he needs. It indeed takes up space, but I am a book
> lover--I have over a thousand of my own books on shelves at home.
>
> Electronic is nice, but there is no replacement in feel, and in fluency
> practice for building speed than with hardcopy pages of Braille.
>
> And the offer to come to Florida for the winter is still open...I was half
> serious (not about the building the garage part)
>
> Smile,
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Amy Ruell
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:17 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Can't do it with math, of course, but it sure makes the case for 
> electronic
> braille files, doesn't it?
>
> Amy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Dr. S. Merchant
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:38 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>
> We ended up getting Michael a loft bed so we could put a desk and shelves
> under it. Then we have two other 5 row shelves besides the shelves under 
> the
> loft bed and still end up putting some books on the top of those shelves.
>
> Math books in high school run about 40 volumes or so..... so book space
> problems just keep getting worse as they get older - Sorry!
>
> Sandy Taboada
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Tracey
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:42 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never 
> ending
>
> issue with us as well!
>
> Tracey
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
> Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>
>>
>> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no
>> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the
>> Braille books and games?
>>
>> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with
>> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books
>> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books,
>> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers
>> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>>
>> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game
>> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even 
>> fit
>
>> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible
>> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>>
>> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>>
>> Debby
>> bwbddl at yahoo.com
>> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40tel
> us.net
>>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 15:14:50 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:14:50 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
In-Reply-To: <49374b83.8c53f10a.3336.fffffccfSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4937f3ef.1b2a400a.1fd5.0df3@mx.google.com>

Oh Carol this is great--this is maybe the best use of a blind person in a
commercial I have seen...It shows such a typical reaction of the store clerk
being directed back to the blind person as the customer--and how many times
have you been with your older kid and someone tries to look at you for a
visual silent communicate? And the Harley store guy just accepts it
And goes on...I like it that the guy shows that blind people have the same
desires as anyone and can "find a way"...of course it isn't perfect, but it
seems realistic and humorous in a good way. We just need to keep getting us
out there in the biggest normal variety way we can. Thanks for sharing! Is
that the New Jersey LOTTO? 

Did you catch that his jacket said "Born to be Blind"? For convention from
BLIND, Inc., we made up whole lyrics for the song melody Born to be Wild
into Born to be Blind and sang it several years--it was a staff, student,
and one of my sons' favorites--smile.
 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carol Castellano
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:53 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org; KAYLA8424 at aol.com; donnaoandm at hotmail.com;
hmom4 at aol.com; SpecialK38 at aol.com; LindaSHalm at aol.com; WITMAGZINE at aol.com;
4pecora at optonline.net; tomferry81 at hotmail.com; pattyt1 at optonline.net;
robbieschuler3 at yahoo.com; William.Cucco at opd.state.nj.us
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider

Looking for the perfect holiday gift for that blind person in your 
life???  Check out this idea!
Carol




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 15:49:26 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:49:26 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Narrated DVD's
In-Reply-To: <E22317D2668C4846B7869CAE7805DFD1@owner3aeecfe4a>
Message-ID: <4937fc0b.1b2a400a.1fd2.ffff8c09@mx.google.com>

Hi Penny!
Welcome to the list and our "family". We are glad you have found us. 
Rather than narration, are you meaning audio description? I have posted on
this before, I will search for my links for educational audio described
dvd's and post again. The entertainment DVD's are pretty rare-as are the
VHS. It has been pretty much up to the filmmakers to do it, and they almost
always don't. Things for that from a legal/legislative push have been in the
works and under discussion for awhile too. But a few non-profits have formed
and received grants from the Dept. of Education (and maybe NSF too?--can't
recall right now) to describe educational video and some PBS programs for
children and students. One of the big non-profits out of Boston has lost
funding for it, but another continues and is growing.

Sending what I have soon...

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Penny McGuire
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:26 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] Narrated DVD's

I have seen narrated (spelling ?) on VHS but not DVD's.  Does anyone know
anything about being able to get DVD's that are narrated?? Our local library
doesn't have any.

Thanks!
Penny
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 15:53:34 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:53:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description
Message-ID: <4937fd03.0c2d400a.211b.1a91@mx.google.com>



 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc



Dear parents, teachers, and students,

Most people know of us as a captioning company - it's even in our name,
CaptionMax. What you may not know is that we're also a major provider of
educational audio description services. We have described thousands of hours
of television and  educational DVD programs, enabling blind students pre-K
through 12 to be able to access the media as effectively as their sighted
peers. Many of our programs are also of interest to post-secondary students
and adults.

However, many consumers and teachers are not aware that the description is
there, waiting to be used. We're reaching out to you, both to raise
awareness and to seek your feedback on our work. In this note, you will find
all the information you need to begin using CaptionMax-described programming
today.

DESCRIBED TELEVISION PROGRAMMING

All you have to do is turn it on!  Don't know how to do that? Then please
read on.

There are lots of audio described programs available on television. Most PBS
programs are described, including children's programs, documentaries, and
other series. Activating audio description (AD) will make those programs
easier to follow and enjoy.

If you're not sure how to activate audio description (AD) on your
television, try our handy web guide:

    * Overview of AD:
http://www.captionmax.com/en/viewer-info/for-teachers/AD
    * Activating AD on your TV:
http://www.captionmax.com/en/viewer-info/for-teachers/AD/TV

Follow the menu links for additional hints on activating AD on cable, VCRs,
and DVDs.

Check here for a list of television series that we describe:
http://www.captionmax.com/en/viewer-info/shows-we-describe

In addition to series, we also do lots of documentaries and other programs.
Check your PBS schedule for a list of described programming.

DESCRIBED DVDS

CaptionMax is the largest producer of audio description services for
non-broadcast educational media. Here's a list of the programs we've
described so far, and we're adding to it every week!
http://www.captionmax.com/en/viewer-info/captionmax-shows/UAM-accessible-med
ia-list

One of the coolest features of our educational DVDs is that the menus are
auto-described. That means all you have to do is pop in the DVD, and you'll
start hearing the menu options. You can control everything with the forward
and enter buttons. A feature we are especially proud of is expanded
description, in which the video freezes to allow more detailed description
of an object or scene.

"How do I get these programs?" you may ask. There are several ways:

FREE LOAN: If you're a parent or student, visit our page
(http://www.dcmp.org/Categories/categories2.aspx?C=CAPTIONMAX) at the
Described Captioned Media Program (DCMP) website. Once you register on the
DCMP site, you can obtain via download or DVD (including free shipping) any
of our programs. There are just two requirements to be eligible for the
service: 1.) You must be a parent of, teacher of, or student with a hearing
or vision loss, and 2.) You must fill out a short evaluation form after use.
To register visit DCMP's registration page:
http://www.dcmp.org/Register.aspx

PURCHASE: If you're a teacher or librarian, we encourage you to follow the
links
(http://www.captionmax.com/en/viewer-info/captionmax-shows/UAM-accessible-me
dia-list) on our website to the program distributors, where you can buy and
learn about our described programs and more.

If you've listened to one of our described programs, please send us a note
and let us know what you think!
http://www.captionmax.com/en/contact-captionmax. We read every email that
comes in, and answer every question. We are also proud to say that consumer
feedback is an integral part of how we do what we do. Please send us your
thoughts and input, so that we may be able to better serve you.

/Max/
  






From aruell at nbp.org  Thu Dec  4 16:59:37 2008
From: aruell at nbp.org (Amy Ruell)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:59:37 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
In-Reply-To: <20081204034724.B02D3790C55@nbp.org>
Message-ID: <BF8D5D5B7D8E4C8D843E4D73D4C7E541@nbp2.local>

Hello,
Sorry, but, as a blind adult, I'm missing something. Can you please explain?
Thanks.

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carol Castellano
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:53 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org; KAYLA8424 at aol.com; donnaoandm at hotmail.com;
hmom4 at aol.com; SpecialK38 at aol.com; LindaSHalm at aol.com; WITMAGZINE at aol.com;
4pecora at optonline.net; tomferry81 at hotmail.com; pattyt1 at optonline.net;
robbieschuler3 at yahoo.com; William.Cucco at opd.state.nj.us
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


Looking for the perfect holiday gift for that blind person in your 
life???  Check out this idea!
Carol





From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 17:30:34 2008
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:30:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <901946.13413.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7CE675E665B94C5E941175BBC5927DAD@Family>
	<031701c95576$54650be0$fd2f23a0$@lsu.edu>
Message-ID: <6D6F323CF4894730AB76C8CE3536DE3D@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     When I was in school, my Father mount shelves on one wall of my 
bedroom. They went from floor to ceiling and I used a step stool to get to 
the top shelf. By the time I left high school, I had nearly 90 feet of 
shelving in my room.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dr. S. Merchant" <smerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions


> We ended up getting Michael a loft bed so we could put a desk and shelves
> under it. Then we have two other 5 row shelves besides the shelves under 
> the
> loft bed and still end up putting some books on the top of those shelves.
>
> Math books in high school run about 40 volumes or so..... so book space
> problems just keep getting worse as they get older - Sorry!
>
> Sandy Taboada
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Tracey
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:42 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never 
> ending
>
> issue with us as well!
>
> Tracey
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
> Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>
>>
>> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no
>> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the
>> Braille books and games?
>>
>> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with
>> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books
>> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of books,
>> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the teachers
>> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>>
>> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game
>> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even 
>> fit
>
>> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible
>> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>>
>> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>>
>> Debby
>> bwbddl at yahoo.com
>> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40tel
> us.net
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smerchant%40mail.v
> etmed.lsu.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Thu Dec  4 17:42:29 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:42:29 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
In-Reply-To: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com><723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com><723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS48F8854A5B07E82FF7962EB020@phx.gbl>

T.J.
It's just a piece of screen taped to a piece of thin particle board.  Real 
simple to make.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school

> Debby, Can you tell me how the screen board was made? It sounds like 
> siomething I need.
>
> T. J.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:35:03 AM
> Subject: [blindkid] books and school
>
> This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I need 
> my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher "it's 
> okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current volume, the 
> next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings 
> with everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 
> minutes, with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs 
> hall, resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small 
> rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe in a 
> box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.
>
> Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona 
> provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for 
> math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI wouldn't 
> have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor she could 
> use. Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to 
> color in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and 
> crayons. I was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. 
> Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to this math 
> lesson.
>
> Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes straight 
> to Winona to work things out.
>
> Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was finally 
> spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" and 
> chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since the 
> TVI "had no time" to do it.
>
> Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all share 
> the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left my book 
> at school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our blind 
> kids are allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.
>
> Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be brought up at the 
> meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way to 
> hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We all 
> know there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which includes 
> our elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on the 
> teacher end of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, 
> which included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I 
> could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being done in 
> our own county!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Dear Debby-
>
> Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know 
> things
> have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.
>
>
>
> Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
> distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
> needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource 
> room.
> He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona 
> has
> the same kind of character.
>
> Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
> have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
> math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. 
> (All
> these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous 
> like
> six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)
>
>
>
> It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a 
> volume
> or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also 
> his
> responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he 
> might
> need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.
>
>
>
> "Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
> caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
> blind student or employee to succeed.
>
>
>
> I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest 
> air
> we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. 
> Even
> my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break 
> just
> when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile..
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
>
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From trising at sbcglobal.net  Thu Dec  4 18:51:44 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:51:44 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
References: <BF8D5D5B7D8E4C8D843E4D73D4C7E541@nbp2.local>
Message-ID: <AFCAE8B4829F4715A46D3483BFE064E4@nickf1758c2c9d>

I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.



From tjmaries at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 19:02:10 2008
From: tjmaries at yahoo.com (T. J.)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:02:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com><723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<BAY113-DS48F8854A5B07E82FF7962EB020@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <113057.63227.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

What do you mea by "screen"?? Like, the soft screen on winows?

T. J.




________________________________
From: Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:42:29 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school

T.J.
It's just a piece of screen taped to a piece of thin particle board.? Real simple to make.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school

> Debby, Can you tell me how the screen board was made? It sounds like siomething I need.
> 
> T. J.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:35:03 AM
> Subject: [blindkid] books and school
> 
> This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I need my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher "it's okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current volume, the next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings with everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 minutes, with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs hall, resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe in a box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.
> 
> Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI wouldn't have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor she could use. Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to color in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and crayons. I was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to this math lesson.
> 
> Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes straight to Winona to work things out.
> 
> Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was finally spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" and chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since the TVI "had no time" to do it.
> 
> Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all share the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left my book at school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our blind kids are allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.
> 
> Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be brought up at the meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way to hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We all know there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which includes our elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on the teacher end of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, which included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being done in our own county!
> 
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
> 
> Dear Debby-
> 
> Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
> have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
> distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
> needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
> He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
> the same kind of character.
> 
> Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
> have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
> math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
> these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
> six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)
> 
> 
> 
> It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
> or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
> responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
> need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> "Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
> caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
> blind student or employee to succeed.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
> we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
> my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
> when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile..
> 
> 
> 
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> 
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> 
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> 
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> 
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> 
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com



      

From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 19:33:59 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:33:59 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
In-Reply-To: <AFCAE8B4829F4715A46D3483BFE064E4@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <493830ac.0aec660a.0efb.ffffd748@mx.google.com>

I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would miss
much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark glasses and
a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a woman,
they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a store
sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me here to
look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley motor
cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and uses his
cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at a car
lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically hands
his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the bike, he
looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then the
next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the bike
down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a trailer
being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of thing.
Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with the
words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then there is
the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.

Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
something.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider

I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From trising at sbcglobal.net  Thu Dec  4 19:50:31 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:50:31 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
References: <493830ac.0aec660a.0efb.ffffd748@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <C2F73390FD104C7A80FF44477AF4353A@nickf1758c2c9d>

Thanks for the description. It was quite funny. My parents let me drive a 
car once in an empty parking lot. I was seventeen. Dad sat right next to me 
so he could take the wheel if he needed to. A security guard came up, and 
dad helped me steer to a stop. The man said, and I quote, "She can't 
practice driving here. Is she even old enough,." He probably thought I was a 
child. I was born without optic nerves and without a working pituitary 
gland. This makes me very short. Until the guard got to the car, it probably 
looked like noone was driving it, since I am not tall enough to see out the 
windshield, even if I could. Dad said to the guard, "Yes, she is seventeen. 
She is blind and I wanted to give her a chance to see what it was like to 
drive." The guard hemmed and hawed, and finally said, "Okay, she can drive 
here if she wants to." I was not allowed to practice as a sighted teenager, 
but as long as I was blind, it was okay.  What you described with the guy on 
the Harley sounds a lot like my real life experience. 




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Thu Dec  4 20:24:00 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:24:00 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
In-Reply-To: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com><723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com><BAY113-DS48F8854A5B07E82FF7962EB020@phx.gbl>
	<113057.63227.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com><723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com><BAY113-DS48F8854A5B07E82FF7962EB020@phx.gbl>
	<113057.63227.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS1C7477B20053262B94487EB020@phx.gbl>

The wire screen used in screen doors.  They probably have it at a hardware 
store.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:02 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school

> What do you mea by "screen"? Like, the soft screen on winows?
>
> T. J.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:42:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school
>
> T.J.
> It's just a piece of screen taped to a piece of thin particle board. Real 
> simple to make.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:49 AM
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school
>
>> Debby, Can you tell me how the screen board was made? It sounds like 
>> siomething I need.
>>
>> T. J.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:35:03 AM
>> Subject: [blindkid] books and school
>>
>> This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I 
>> need my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher 
>> "it's okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current 
>> volume, the next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 
>> 3 meetings with everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is 
>> only 50 minutes, with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same 
>> upstairs hall, resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, 
>> small rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe 
>> in a box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.
>>
>> Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona 
>> provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for 
>> math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI 
>> wouldn't have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor 
>> she could use. Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way 
>> for you to color in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen 
>> board and crayons. I was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being 
>> prepared. Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to 
>> this math lesson.
>>
>> Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes 
>> straight to Winona to work things out.
>>
>> Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was 
>> finally spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" 
>> and chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since 
>> the TVI "had no time" to do it.
>>
>> Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all 
>> share the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left 
>> my book at school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our 
>> blind kids are allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.
>>
>> Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be brought up at 
>> the meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way 
>> to hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We 
>> all know there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which 
>> includes our elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on 
>> the teacher end of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in 
>> action, which included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so 
>> that I could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being 
>> done in our own county!
>>
>> Debby
>> bwbddl at yahoo.com
>> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>>
>> Dear Debby-
>>
>> Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know 
>> things
>> have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
>> distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
>> needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource 
>> room.
>> He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona 
>> has
>> the same kind of character.
>>
>> Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
>> have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
>> math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. 
>> (All
>> these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous 
>> like
>> six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)
>>
>>
>>
>> It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a 
>> volume
>> or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also 
>> his
>> responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he 
>> might
>> need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
>> caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
>> blind student or employee to succeed.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest 
>> air
>> we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. 
>> Even
>> my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break 
>> just
>> when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile..
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>>
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Thu Dec  4 20:26:52 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:26:52 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
In-Reply-To: <493830ac.0aec660a.0efb.ffffd748@mx.google.com>
References: <493830ac.0aec660a.0efb.ffffd748@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS4FFFE662AB5829C5992FAEB020@phx.gbl>

It all depends on whether or not you get excited about the thought of blind 
people driving one day.
I don't.  But it is funny.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:33 PM
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider

> I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would 
> miss
> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark glasses 
> and
> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a woman,
> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a 
> store
> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me here to
> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley motor
> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and uses 
> his
> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at a 
> car
> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically 
> hands
> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the bike, 
> he
> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then the
> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the bike
> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a trailer
> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of thing.
> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with the
> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then there 
> is
> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>
> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
> something.
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 23:34:29 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <4937f029.1b3e400a.2014.fffff57c@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Super! You build I'll supervise!
You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
keeps getting bigger and bigger!

Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I 
actually did help my parents build so know how.

LOL!
Barbara


      



From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 23:37:34 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:37:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com>
	<723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <131270.16483.qm@web90507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It's just a piece of heavy screen duct taped to a piece of cardboard. You place your paper on top and write or color on it. Winona says she can feel pencil, some pens, some markers, and of course crayons.

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: T. J. <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:49:10 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school

Debby, Can you tell me how the screen board was made?  It sounds like siomething I need.

T. J.




________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:35:03 AM
Subject: [blindkid] books and school

This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I need my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher "it's okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current volume, the next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings with everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 minutes, with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs hall, resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe in a box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.

Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI wouldn't have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor she could use. Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to color in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and crayons. I was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to this math lesson.

Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes straight to Winona to work things out.

Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was finally spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" and chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since the TVI "had no time" to do it.

Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all share the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left my book at school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our blind kids are allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.

Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be  brought up at the meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way to hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We all know there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which includes our elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on the teacher end of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, which included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being done in our own county!

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Dear Debby-

Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.



Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
the same kind of character.

Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)



It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.



"Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
blind student or employee to succeed. 



I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile.. 



Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc


      

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com



      
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bwbddl%40yahoo.com



      



From tjmaries at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 23:56:47 2008
From: tjmaries at yahoo.com (T. J.)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:56:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com>
	<723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<131270.16483.qm@web90507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <88823.85460.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Awesome! Thanks for the discription. Going to make one right away!

T. J.




________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 3:37:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school

It's just a piece of heavy screen duct taped to a piece of cardboard. You place your paper on top and write or color on it. Winona says she can feel pencil, some pens, some markers, and of course crayons.

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: T. J. <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:49:10 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school

Debby, Can you tell me how the screen board was made?? It sounds like siomething I need.

T. J.




________________________________
From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:35:03 AM
Subject: [blindkid] books and school

This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, "I need my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", the teacher "it's okay, not important today." Me insisting they keep the current volume, the next one, and any the teacher anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings with everyone that problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 minutes, with 3 minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs hall, resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe in a box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.

Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. Winona provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, crayons, etc. for math yesterday as she knew what was coming up and figured the TVI wouldn't have it. Sure enough, she told Winona there was no protractor she could use. Volia! Winona pulled it out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to color in this pie graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and crayons. I was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to this math lesson.

Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes straight to Winona to work things out.

Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was finally spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower "testing" and chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own worksheet, since the TVI "had no time" to do it.

Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they all share the school text. Works out great because there is no more "I left my book at school" excuse! They also don't allow backpacks, although our blind kids are allowed since they're lugging around more stuff.

Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be? brought up at the meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that there is no way to hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher to see their work. We all know there is. Tuesday I substituted in an elementary class which includes our elementary blind student. It was really interesting to be on the teacher end of the spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, which included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being done in our own county!

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Dear Debby-

Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.



Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
the same kind of character.

Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)



It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.



"Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
blind student or employee to succeed. 



I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile.. 



Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc


? ? ? 

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
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? ? ? 
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? ? ? 

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 23:58:09 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:58:09 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49386e96.86c3f10a.6113.2c67@mx.google.com>

On my way! It was 15 for a high here today! 
Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
Be ready!

Good thing gas is cheap. 

Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie... 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Debby B
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Super! You build I'll supervise!
You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
keeps getting bigger and bigger!

Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I 
actually did help my parents build so know how.

LOL!
Barbara


      

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ail.com




From mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com  Fri Dec  5 01:20:05 2008
From: mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com (Michael Freholm)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:20:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Here is history of
	thewhite cane
In-Reply-To: <49369c3c.85c2f10a.60cb.2975@mx.google.com>
References: <49369c3c.85c2f10a.60cb.2975@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <E90B902B1D6A4126A7E227B203277E7C@WHOZIT>

This article is an excellent start.  I want more!  Let's see what we can get
going.  Collaboration between the two groups to make this happen would be
great.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:48 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'; 'NFB
Junior Science Academy Support List'; 'Parents of Blind Children State
Presidents List'; 'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List';
'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Here is history of
thewhite cane

Thanks to Robert for posting this! I am so glad for this new history group!
And the writer's group! (okay--ALL our groups!)

Parents, students and teachers I think this history of the cane will give
you some perspective on just how new the cane instruction/profession is and
is still very much in a formative stage (though many O and M certified act
as if what they know/been taught are laws of nature) and why the
philosophies and levels of expertise and knowledge in the profession are so
variable. Remember kid's canes were not ever manufactured in the history of
the world until the 1980's and we are the ones who did it. In the history of
the whole world cane and travel instruction for children (even adults
relatively) is newborn--new born!

Hope you enjoy and it helps with your understanding.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:32 PM
To: NFB History Support List
Subject: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Here is history of the white cane

Hello:

     I thought I would forward this from the writer's group. There is a 
bibliography at the end.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Newman" <newmanrl at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: [stylist] Here is history of the white cane


I wrote Jeff Altman, the Nebraska Training Center travel instructor.
He has two articles dealing with the history of the cane and our use of it.
Here is the first article. There will be a second one that apparently gets
more into facts or something.
The History of Orientation and Mobility

     The use of the cane or the staff by the blind dates back to antiquity,
but the organized study of cane use is perhaps as recent as the last half of
the last century.  Cane technique as we have come to know it today, with the
use of the Long Cane, dates back to World War 11.  This is roughly fifty
years ago.  The prime mover in the technique, Richard Hoover (a man of
remarkable talent) died in 1986.

     The roots of blind mobility are often attributed to the Old Testament.
The concern for the blind is traced to Deuteronomy X.X.V.1.1., 18, "Cursed
be he that maketh the blind wander out of his way, and all the people shall
say Amen." The use of the staff by the blind has its roots in Greek
Mythology.

"The ancient Prophet Teresias was deprived of sight for an offense against
the gods, he was compassioned by the goddess Charicolo, who in pity for his
misfortune gave him a staff, by which he could conduct his steps with as
much safety as if he had use of his eye sight"

     In the Biography of the Blind, James Wilson (I 83 5) offers these
observations on the use of a cane:

"A blind man inclines to the hand in which the staff is carried, and
this often has a tendency to lead him astray when he travels on a road with
which he is unacquainted."

Wilson goes on to describe the establishment of The Asylum of the Blind in
Belfast in the year 1800.  If a formalized program for cane instruction
existed there was not made clear by Wilson.

     The first formalized system of cane travel was offered by William Hanks
Levy (I 872) in Blindness and Blind.  Levy's basic technique was as follows:
The cane is held in the right hand.  It is held vertically six inches in
front of the user.  The hand grasps the hook (crook) of the stick,
protecting the hand with the body of the cane. (Note that a straight cane
would not be usable with this method.) Before starting, "the stick should
gently sweep the ground in front." While in motion the user waves the stick
from left to right in step with the feet.

     Levy's system also includes the need for use of the other senses.
Hearing detects the approach of people and things.  Smell helps detect
landmarks.  And the use of thin shoes literally helps the traveler get the
feel of the terrain.

     The qualities of the stick are also addressed.  It needs to be light
but not elastic, so impressions can be transmitted.  The handle must be like
a hook.  Height should vary with the individual, though no measuring system
is offered.

     Levy's (1872) method for obstacle exploration is almost identical to
today's use of a cane.  However his true innovation in cane use came in
detecting drop-offs and steps:

"When steps, or other hindrances are anticipated, the stick should be
advanced to its full length, so as to perceive at the earliest possible
moment, the circumstances of the position."

This is the first recorded use of the cane extended as a probe or bumper.

     Levy (1872) did not, however, advocate truly independent travel.  This
is made clear in his descriptions of street crossings;

"Comparatively quiet streets may be crossed without a guide but those of
considerable traffic should not be attempted.  Just touching a first passer
- asking him to lead you across the street is better than risking your
neck..."

     In our next installment of the History of O&M we'll look at another
novel nineteenth century travel system from England.


The History of Orientation and Mobility, part II

     This is our second installment of the history of Mobility.  In the last
installment we looked at the system proposed by William Hanks Levy.  The
next two systems also come from England.

     After Levy, the next observations in cane travel came 24 years later by
E.F.B. Robinson (I 896) in his book The True Sphere of the Blind.  His
actual cane technique, though novel, did not prove as useful as Levy's,
however, his observations on travel and the traveler were most insightful.

     Robinson's cane technique calls for a straight stick.  To start the
traveler taps the edge of a sidewalk for the first few steps to draw a
straight line of travel.  To hold the line of travel Robinson notes that the
traveler must walk erect and quickly.  The following describes the actual
use of the cane;

"As he is in a quiet part of town he walks rapidly and balances his cane
immediately in front of him, keeping it oscillating like the pendulum of the
clock to guard his shins and knees..." (pg. 55)

Robinson made other observations about traveling in the environment.  He
noted people by "tacit agreement," walk down the right side of the sidewalk.
Like Levy, he also stresses the feeling of the surface by the feet of the
traveler.  For the cane itself, he suggests steel.  Despite the fact it is
heavy, its durability and conductivity qualities are extolled.

     World War I gave the world the first experiment with mass casualties in
this century.  The British rehabilitated their war blind at St. Dunstan's.
Sir Arnold Lawson (1922) in describing the blinded soldier in his book War
Blindness at St. Dunstan's, gives us a psychological insight into the newly
blind;

"When sight is first lost the patient is plunged into an intellectual abyss.
He finds or rather fancies himself completely dependent on others for
everything.  He cannot walk, eat, or amuse himself his every action seems to
necessitate an appeal for help." (pg.131)

To combat these problems a mobility system was developed.  Lawson describes
it as follows;

"Thus to enable him around to find his way about the building, narrow strips
of carpet, the edges of which can be detected by the stick and which each
man is provided, are laid along the corridors: and handrails where necessary
afford further help, whilst stairs are indicated by patches of rubber or
wood which feet instantly detect." (pg. 132)

This would seem to indicate the British supported an organized use of cane
for mobility.  Perhaps this statement by Sir Arthur Pearson (I 92 1), a
blinded war veteran, and later the person in charge of St. Dunstan's will
shed light on cane use;

"Not long after my sight went I gave up the use of one unless I was walking
by myself in a place I didn't know well or I was going for a tramp over
rough country... I am quite sure that I got along much better without than I
did when I depended upon one.  I walked more naturally and felt more
confident.  The experience of the men of St. Dunstan's who accustomed
themselves to this habit agreed with mine." (pg. 34)

Surprisingly, Pearson described a fairly sophisticated cane technique.  It
includes point forward, with occasional tap side to side.  He advocates
occasional sideways tap along the curb or the wall at the side of the walk
to draw a line of travel.  Though he sees the cane as the elongation of the
arm, he warns that a heavy cane is a reminder of a beggar.  This theme is an
important one in acceptance of cane use.

     Observations of the environment were also made.  He cautions the blind
traveler to pay sharp attention to the dip in the road prior to reaching the
curb.  He also warns that horse drawn carts may mask the approach noise of
fast cars.

     In our next installment we will look at Richard Hoover and the impact
of World War 11.  We will also look at the V.A.'s initial refusal to deal
with blind rehabilitation.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part III

     We left off with the british using than discarding their canes.  In the
late 1920's Seeing Eye came into being.  In the late thirties a young
instructor, Richard Hoover, at the Maryland School for the Blind had asked
the Principal, Warren Bledsoe if he could experiment with independent travel
using a cane.  The answer at that time was no.  But, World War 2 would
forever change the field of Mobility.

     A special committee was created by The Office of the Surgeon General in
the Spring and Summer of 1942 to investigate agencies for the Blind in
America and overseas.  It was believed the war was certain to create many
newly blinded servicemen.  On May 28, 1943 Valley Forge and Letterman
General Hospitals were designated the special treatment center for blind
casualties.

     Pooling its patients also meant pooling its resources.  The Army put
out its call in the ranks and to civilians to recruit personnel with
experience working with the blind.  This is how people like Richard Hoover
and Warren Bledsoe Junior found their way to Valley Forge.  Two other
individuals played significant roles at Valley Forge.  Father Thomas
Carroll, affectionately known as "the blind priest," was a frequent visitor
to Valley Forge, and Chaplain at Avon (Old Farms).  Kathern Gruber was in
charge of the program for the war blinded for The American Foundation for
the Blind.  Both would become members of the Veteran Administration's
Citizen Advisory Committee, and play key roles in the establishment of the
VA's Blind Rehabilitation Center at Hines.

     Initially, the Army believed the VA would receive discharged servicemen
and complete their rehabilitation.  In his article on the account of Army
rehabilitation of blind servicemen Colonel James Greear, suggests that is
was believed the VA would establish an institution similar to St. Dunstan's.
However, the VA refused to do this.  The matter was temporarily resolved on
January 8, 1944 when President Roosevelt made the Army the office of primary
responsibility to establish a servicing institution for blinded servicemen.

((Editor's Note: The V.A. was in the midst of a huge scandal that was being
congressionally investigated when World War 11 broke out.  All this action
was tabled.  In the light of these major problems, it is not shocking they
refused to become the sole source provider of blind rehab, a daunting task
if one expected World War I type casualties.  After the war Omar Bradley, a
five star general was appointed to head the V.A. and clean up the
problems.))

     The V.A. did obtain Avon Old Farms School in Connecticut in Spring
1944, and opened on May 21, 1944 as Old Farms Convalescent Home.  Veterans
were to go here for follow on training after their Army rehabilitation.  On
August 25, 1944, Dibble General Hospital (present day Menlo Park) replaced
Letterman.

     Colonel Greear was Chief Ophthalmologist and Hoover's commanding
officer at Valley Forge.  In recounting the Army's rehabilitation efforts
for the blind in an article in "Outlook for the Blind" (1946) he describes
how a soldier would learn orientation:

"He was expected to learn fairly quickly to get around alone with, and
without a cane; to travel easily with people; to get in and out of
automobiles, buses and trains: to go up and down stairs and escalator; to go
through revolving doors; to walk along unfamiliar streets, following
directions, and to explore unfamiliar terrain by using his cane..."

     In discussing Avon, Greear makes no mention of orientation.  Russell
Williams offers a far more telling description:

"Avon, at the outset of its establishment, held that a cane was not
necessary, modifying this doctrine to some extent as time went on with
regards to downtown travel, but always appearing to ascribe some particular
virtue to avoidance of its use whenever possible."

Warren Bledsoe recounts that the Saturday evening Post did an
article on Avon entitled "They Learn to See at Avon Farms." The use of
facial vision was the topic.  The Office of the Surgeon General got involved
in favor of the Valley Forge Program.  In the summer of 1945 they dispatched
an orientor from Valley Forge to Dibble to train staff.  This was to insure
that service-members reached Avon trained in cane use already.

In our next installment we will look at how the
Mobility program at Valley Forge really got off the ground.  Then we will
look at the resistance to it in the outside community.  As part of the last
installment a will provide a complete bibliography for those interested in
further information.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part IV

     In the last segment we looked at the establishment of special Army
training centers at Valley Forge and Dibble.  In this segment casualties
mount as the Normandy invasion begins in mid 1944.

     Richard Hoover in his writing recalls that one day at a staff meeting
at Valley Forge someone said:

     "Does anyone here think the blind people in America do a good job
getting around.  I think they do a poor job."

However, Bledsoe recalls the scene quite differently.  After the Battle of
the Bulge in December 1944, the topic of discussion at a staff meeting was
the supposed shattered morale of the newly receive blinded soldiers.  It was
Hoover who said:

"I think the first thing they need to know is how to get around.  We've been
working on it, but not enough.  People say blind people in this country do a
good job of getting around.  I don't think they do a good job.  They do a
hell of a poor job. 55

     This may have offended some of the staff in the room, but it did prompt
then Lieutenant Colonel Greer (Chief of Ophthalmology and Hoover's boss) to
examine the possibility of Orientation Training.

     By this time Hoover was ready to offer formal practical course of
training.  Colonel Henry Beuuwkes, Hospital Commander, was impressed with
Hoover's proposal.  He not only agreed to adopting his Long Cane training,
but to allow screening and selection of instructors, and the necessary
manpower to allow effective training.

     The following curriculum comes from a 1946 article written by Hoover.
Rehabilitation for the blind was slated for 16 weeks, but Valley Forge was a
treatment center which could extend the time of a soldier's stay.  The
orientation course consisted of 98 hours and was broken down as follows:

1. Travel (20 hours)
2. Special Methods (12 hours)
3. Demonstrations (12 hours)
4. Sports (12 hours)
5. Background Lectures (12 hours)
6. Discussion (10 hours)
7. Detail Duty (6 hours)
8. Tests (8 hours)

To travel independently the use of five natural aids was taught.  They
included sound, touch, scent, muscular sensation and obstacle sensation.
Hoover remarks that the first three were depended upon most, the last two
the least.

     Editor's Note: There is very little written about the training in
obstacle sensation.  The movie "Bright Victory" with Arthur Kennedy does
have a scene where he is being trained in this, and this is probably an
accurate rendition of techniques used.

     The hospital itself was the initial setting for lessons.  The first six
without a cane, the next 16 were with one.  This setting provided a
challenge to the pupil and in Hoover's words, "yet not so difficult to
invite defeat in the very beginning." The next nine lessons were taught
downtown.  Successful completion brought the pupil a furlough.  No mention
of remedial training is made, but it is logical to assume it was available.

     The gift of Valley forge goes deeper than just cane technique.  It is a
comprehensive system that includes the traveler orienting himself and
protecting himself even when a cane is not used.  Hoover's protection system
is the forerunner of the current day Upper Protective Technique.

     The cane techniques taught by Hoover are almost identical to their
successors today, the Touch Technique and Diagonal Technique.  Hoover's two
true innovations are the length of the cane, and touching it in front of the
foot about to step instead of the traditional cane and step on the same
side.

     The cane itself had been a limiting factor.  Hoover's outdoor method
(Touch Technique) called for an extended cane to follow the principle of
cane tip forward suggested by Levy.  The added length allowed a safety
margin in searching for curbs, obstacles and dropoffs.  Wooden canes proved
undesirable.  In 1945, 300 aluminum canes weighing between six and eight
ounces each were obtained.  All were a standard length of 45 inches.

     ((Editor's Note: Aluminum was used in production of airplanes,
diversion of this for cane making was a major coup of the time and shows the
emphasis given the rehabilitation effort.))

     In our next installment we will look briefly at Hoover's philosophy on
Mobility training and what happened to him after the war, the resistance in
the field, and the establishment of Hines.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part V

     In our last segment, Richard Hoover had won approval of his idea for
Mobility training for the blinded troops sent to Valley Forge.

     With the approval of Hoover's mobility plan Colonel Beeuwkes had also
agreed to the screening of additional staff as orientors.  The initial Army
move to establish Valley Forge and Dibble as blind rehabilitation centers
brought experienced staff, but now Orientors had to be recruited, screened
and trained.  In recalling the selection process Hoover describes the
following:

"It has been said that the patients were allowed a very large
amount of time to learn their basic skills (months).  Such was not the case
, however, with their instructors, who had to produce or be disqualified
within a few short weeks."

A staff of 50 was eventually selected.  The peak load at Valley Forge was
estimated at about 360 pupils.  Their actual screening method was not
recorded by Hoover, but by the time they arrived for screening Hoover had
developed his Long Cane techniques and was experimenting with them under
blindfold.  Performance under blindfold seems to have been one of the
standards required.

     Hoover was released from active duty as a First Lieutenant at the
beginning of 1947.  The VA had approved the opening of Hines on July 12,
1946.  The program would not actually begin until July 4, 1948.

     Hoover was repeatedly offered the position of being in charge of the
Blind Rehabilitation Program at Hines.  He refused repeatedly.  Instead, he
entered Johns Hopkins Medical School, and eventually became an
Ophthalmologist.  He stated; "I think the best thing you can do for the
blind is make them see." He was however, in an unprecedented move, made a
consultant to the VA Department of Medicine and Surgery while still a
medical student.

     Warren Bledsoe filled the position at Hines which Hoover declined on an
interim basis.  Later the position would be filled by Russell Williams.

     Hoover did not abandon mobility.  He continued to teach orientation
classes while in medical school and residing at the Maryland School for the
Blind.  He taught students and members from various agencies servicing the
blind community.

     Why was Hoover so concerned to teach orientation? Hoover had been
trained to work with the blind, and worked at the Maryland School for the
Blind before the war.  He offered these thoughts in 1947:

"Individuals also become functionally deficient to a certain degree when
encountering a more intricate and complex environment.  So most of us go on
to seek training and education to cope with new situations and lend
ourselves pliable to these many situations arising in the competitive
world."

Hoover goes on to compare Orientation to Plato's ideal concept of education,
which is achievement of all one is capable of:

"So, consider now, how paramount it is to give an education which
establishes an intelligently functioning sensory and motor whole which
cannot be produced in part and aims at the ultimate in education of which
Plato spoke.  Surely, walking without a guide would fall into this category
besides its being a necessity, a joy, a right and a privilege."

At Valley Forge the population was naturally servicemen.  After the war,
controversy existed over who could benefit from Hoover's program.  The Army
had dealt with once sighted male adults, who at the very least, had
previously been sighted, and in excellent health.  None had been
congenitally blind, none had been over sixty.  Hoover (1947) clearly
addresses what he thinks
is the potential target population for training:

"...this speaker believes the time to begin orientation and travel is at the
earliest possible moment.  In the case of the infant the free use of the
upper and lower extremities should be encouraged with authoritative training
beginning with creeping movements and progressively continued the adapted
throughout school years.. For those losing sight at a later age the hospital
is the place to start orientation and travel, and it should be continued
until the individual is independent and satisfied.  There is no limit as to
age, but here again, anyone entertaining the foolish notion that absolutely
everyone should learn to travel should erase such a wild idea immediately.
There are just as many in comparison, no doubt, not mentally or physically
prepared for such an event as there are those of us not adequately suited
for flying a P80."

     ((Editor's Note: It is important to consider the time that this
statement was made, and the fact that little in the way of blind
rehabilitation was being done with multiply involved individuals.  This 1947
reference is the only time Hoover expressed his thoughts on this topic in
writing, he did write other articles on establishment of the Valley Forge
program.))

     In our final installment we will look at the controversy over Mobility
training.  We will also look at the lengths the army went to distance
themselves from the controversy.

The History of Orientation and Mobility, part VI

     Seeing a blind person traveling with the aid of a cane may or may not
be an every day sight for everyone, but it has certainly become a common one
in our society.  It seems incomprehensible today to fathom what all the
resistance to teaching travel skills was about.  At the very least one would
reason that independent cane travel was worth trying.  Why was there so much
bias about the idea of a person with a cane?

     Art often mirrors and colors the impression of the viewer, and society
in general.  The art with blind as subjects in western culture has often
represented them as pitiful, tattered beggars, often holding a cane.  This
idea certainly did not escape Pearson, as shown earlier.  Rembrandt's Tobias
shows a blind man reaching out, groping as if completely, hopelessly lost.
Bellange shows a blind man, staff raised to heaven, speaking or questioning.
Lagendyk and Parry each did poignant portrayals of blind beggars with canes.

     Perhaps the idea met with the same inertia all new ideas first meet.
Hoover shares this recollection of one visitor:

"We had a number of prominent visitors.  One outstanding educator of the
blind, himself sighted, seemed the epitome of mental blindness one day when
he was supposed to be observing a lesson in foot travel and spent most of
his time with his
back to the instructor and blind soldier, giving a long lecture to his host
on what a mess the Army was making of its program for the blind."

The position of the Army is very hard to define.  Colonel Greear was
supportive of Hoover and writes praises of the Orientation Program in his
1946 article.  Curiously, in an article published in May 1944 in the same
magazine, Outlook for the Blind, he fails to mention anything about Hoover
or orientation.  It is easy to suppose that the program really did not bear
fruit until 1945.

     This is true, but in the 1946 article Hoover is not mentioned either.
There is only a reference to a highly qualified enlisted man who was later
commissioned and in charge of the physical reconditioning program, which
included orientation.

The person is Hoover.  Few people are mentioned by name in the
are is another incident involving the Army and Hoover.  Hoover addressed the
American Association of Instructors of the Blind, 38th Stated Meeting, held
at Perkins School, June 24-28, 1946.  When the proceedings were published
after the meeting, Hoover is listed as Lt.  Richard E. Hoover.  His November
article in Outlook for the Blind fails to carry his military rank, though he
was still on active duty at the time of print.

     But why should people in the Army or anyone for that matter be negative
on cane use? World War 2 provided dazzling scientific breakthroughs.  Sonar
and radar were perfected.  The jet engine was invented and atomic power
introduced.  In comparison to these great scientific strides, and those that
have subsequently followed, the Long Cane or guide dog might seem primitive.
Also, there is the desire to make the blind individual undetectable to the
general public while traveling.  When considered from this standpoint,
independent travel is no longer the issue.

     Facial Perception, the magic sixth sense, seemed to be the main
competition to Long Cane travel.  The idea of something natural, internal,
replacing sight is very appealing.  Levy, Pearson and Hoover, though the
last was somewhat skeptical, mention it.  Today we know it is based on
hearing.  Ironically, in an obscure article titled "Can Orientation Be
Taught Blind Students?", published in the March 1945 edition of Outlook for
The Blind, Toger Lien comes to that conclusion.  After experiment he states:

"From this I concluded that ability to detect obstacles was entered in the
ear that the facial sensations were only secondary effect." Perhaps the
inertia to this idea is similar to the inertia facing Long Cane use at the
time."

     Why did Orientation work at Valley Forge? The had the right clients,
people who had once been independent and wanted to be independent again.
They had the right instructors, the Army had taken a new generation willing
to break from tradition.  They had the right cane, the six to eight ounce
Long Cane was vital.  They had the right method.  Levy, Robinson and St.
Dunstan's had greatly influenced Hoover, but his idea of projecting the cane
to the side of the following step was purely his own.  And finally, they had
Richard Hoover.  Bledsoe offers this assessment:

"Other hospitals had somewhat similar resources, but did not have Hoover.
He found a way not only to get the right men together to teach soldiers, but
knew how to handle both
patients and how get the best out of them."

(Editor's Note: A bibliography of the materials Bob Kozel used to research
this series is available upon request.)

REFERENCES:

Bledsoe, C.W. (1969).  From valley forge to hines: truth old enough to tell.
American Association of Workers for the Blind, Annual.  Washington, D.C.
97-137.

Bledsoe, C.W. (1983) Originators of orientation and mobility training.  In
Foundations of Orientation and Mobility, chapter 18.

Grear, J.N. (1944).  Rehabilitation of the war-blinded soldiers, Outlook for
the Blind, 38, 121-124.

Grear, J.N. (1946).  Rehabilitation of the blinded soldier, Outlook for the
Blind, 71, 271-278.

Hoover, R.E. (1946).  Foot travel at valley forge. 38th Stated
Meeting of the American Association of Instructors of the Blind, 138-143.

Hoover, R.E. (1946).  Foot travel at valley forge, Outlook for the Blind,
40, 246-251.

Hoover, R.E. (1947).  Orientation and travel technique for the blind.
Proceedings of the American Association of Workers for the Blind, 27-32.

Hoover, R.E. (1968).  The valley forge story.  Blindness 1968, American
Association for Workers for the Blind Annual, 55-65.

Lawson, A. (1922).  War blindness at St. Dunstan's, London: Frowde, Hodder
and Stoughton.

Lein, T. (1945).  Can orientation be taught blind students? Outlook for the
Blind, 39, 64-67.

Levy, W.H. (1872).  Blindness and the blind.  London: Chapman and Hall.

Pearson, A. (1921).  The conquest of blindness.  London: Hodder and
Stoughton.

Robinson, E.F.B. (1896).  The true sphere of the blind.  Toronto: Briggs.

Williams, R.C. (1972).  Orientation and mobility, background discourse.  In
R. Hardy & J Cull (Eds.), Social and rehabilitation services for the blind,
chapt. 13.  Springfield: Thomas.

Wilson, J. (1835).  Biography of the blind.  Birmingham: Showell.


(Editor's Note: The "History of O&M" is a six-part series which appeared in
the BVA Bulletin throughout 1997.  Thanks go out to Bob Kozel, the VIST
Coordinator in San Diego, for researching and writing this material.)


Robert Leslie Newman
Email- newmanrl at cox.net
THOUGHT PROVOKER Website-
Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kasondra Payne
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:46 AM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane

I believe that book was written by Tom Bickford.  M y husband and I love
that book, and we try to share that with everyone including our children's
travel instructors.  By the way, we have been thinking about writing a
children's book from the point of view of a cane.  Sighted kids hear and
read about Braille in school, but a lot of them are mystified by the cane
and what it is used for.  What do you guys think?

Kasondra Payne

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela fowler <fowlers at syix.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:21 PM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane

That book was written by Eric Woods and a few other travel instructors from
Louisiana and Minnesota.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of LoriStay at aol.com
 Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:05 PM
 To: stylist at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane

 Don't know if it will help, but get hold of "The Care and Feeding of the
Long  White Cane," a book that should be available through NFB. It was one
of  the  Kernel books, I think. If it does not have the history in it,
then the  writer most certainly will.
 Lori

 In a message dated 12/1/08 1:16:23 AM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:


 > dear Robert, and listers,
 > so far, I'm not finding such a book on the history of the cane. and,  >
what is on the web is surprisingly shallow. on a dozen or more sites  > is
identical, or nearly identical, text.
 >
 > find nothing at nls.
 > jc
 >
 > Jim Canaday M.A.
 > Lawrence, KS
 >
 >




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From icdx at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  5 01:22:50 2008
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:22:50 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
References: <493830ac.0aec660a.0efb.ffffd748@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c95677$fe0d47f0$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>

Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I 
imagined my boys on that Harley!

On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the screen 
really is an art.
I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made it 
more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the 
narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that obvious.
Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to 
admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own 
commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
I know this gets debated.
For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to 
enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does 
enhance the experience if done well.
It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track 
option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
Best wishes,
Eric V

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would 
>miss
> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark glasses 
> and
> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a woman,
> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a 
> store
> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me here to
> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley motor
> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and uses 
> his
> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at a 
> car
> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically 
> hands
> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the bike, 
> he
> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then the
> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the bike
> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a trailer
> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of thing.
> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with the
> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then there 
> is
> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>
> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
> something.
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> ail.com
>
>
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From mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com  Fri Dec  5 01:31:32 2008
From: mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com (Michael Freholm)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:31:32 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <49386e96.86c3f10a.6113.2c67@mx.google.com>
References: <813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49386e96.86c3f10a.6113.2c67@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <E8719E5EE93C41CCBFE03DFD860B7560@WHOZIT>

Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
the car!
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

On my way! It was 15 for a high here today! 
Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
Be ready!

Good thing gas is cheap. 

Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie... 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Debby B
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Super! You build I'll supervise!
You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
keeps getting bigger and bigger!

Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I 
actually did help my parents build so know how.

LOL!
Barbara


      

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From KZakhnini at nfb.org  Fri Dec  5 01:38:00 2008
From: KZakhnini at nfb.org (Zakhnini,
	Karen)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:38:00 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] NFB Youth Slam
Message-ID: <auto-000077535819@mailfront2.g2host.com>

The National Federation of the Blind Youth Slam A 2009 STEM Leadership Academy

Observe! Discover! Evolve!

Launch rockets, perform astronomy, examine new technology, learn 
about engineering, solve crimes like on CSI, design solutions for the 
environment, meet new friends from all over the United States, play 
goal ball, watch movies, dance, make podcasts, meet blind role 
models, and experience many other adventures at the NFB Youth Slam!

 From July 26-August 1, 2009, two hundred blind and low vision high 
school students will stay at the University of Maryland, College 
Park, to be mentored by blind role models during fun and challenging 
activities meant to build confidence, expand leadership and advocacy 
skills, and increase science literacy. Participants will also attend 
various social events as well as workshops on topics such as 
leadership, career preparation, and advocacy. The NFB Youth Slam will 
culminate in an inspiring rally in Washington DC!

Those interested in participating as students or mentors should 
complete an application by March 1, 2009. After an initial screening 
process, eligible students will be accepted into the program through 
random selection. Students and mentors need not have a strong 
interest in science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM) in order 
to participate, enjoy, and benefit from this academy.

If you are interested in being a student or mentor participant or if 
you'd like to learn more about the NFB Youth Slam visit 
<http://www.blindscience.org/ncbys/youth_slam.asp>http://www.blindscience.org/ncbys/youth_slam.asp.

Send questions about the NFB Youth Slam to youthslam at nfb.org.




Karen C. Zakhnini
Education Project Manager
Jernigan Institute
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

Phone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2293
Fax: (410) 659-5129

Imagine a Future Full of Opportunity...







From k7uij at panix.com  Fri Dec  5 05:26:55 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:26:55 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
References: <493830ac.0aec660a.0efb.ffffd748@mx.google.com>
	<004b01c95677$fe0d47f0$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <FAD63C3CFC9F4F38A6EC4FD0E602D380@owner96190708e>

Eric:

If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require 
it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid 
standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with 
the law.

That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we 
certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an 
art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems. 
(Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because 
they cannot present their output to the deaf?)

In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done 
described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite 
well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds 
which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by 
the blind.

What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille 
booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio 
descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one 
would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit 
descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --  
at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might 
even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large 
print. (grin)

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
imagined my boys on that Harley!

On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the 
screen
really is an art.
I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made 
it
more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that 
obvious.
Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
I know this gets debated.
For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
enhance the experience if done well.
It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
Best wishes,
Eric V

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>miss
> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark 
> glasses
> and
> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a 
> woman,
> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
> store
> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me 
> here to
> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley 
> motor
> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and 
> uses
> his
> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at 
> a
> car
> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
> hands
> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the 
> bike,
> he
> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then 
> the
> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the 
> bike
> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a 
> trailer
> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of 
> thing.
> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with 
> the
> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then 
> there
> is
> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>
> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
> something.
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 14:30:16 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:30:16 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <E8719E5EE93C41CCBFE03DFD860B7560@WHOZIT>
Message-ID: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>

It is 12 degrees, gas is $1.60 a gallon and I have 199,995 miles on my van.
My neighbor has a scooter we can borrow. You are right on the way Michael!

Now where are those moderators I hired to keep us on task/message?

This has been a test of the emergency moderator system...

LOL

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Freholm
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:32 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
the car!
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

On my way! It was 15 for a high here today! 
Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
Be ready!

Good thing gas is cheap. 

Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie... 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Debby B
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Super! You build I'll supervise!
You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
keeps getting bigger and bigger!

Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I 
actually did help my parents build so know how.

LOL!
Barbara


      

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 15:01:54 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:01:54 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
In-Reply-To: <FAD63C3CFC9F4F38A6EC4FD0E602D380@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com>

Dear Mike, and Eric,

I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things did
not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in a
way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what the
blind need.

That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the following
first term grade slip for social studies:
A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.

All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with accompanying
assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear indication
of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was graded
or a key component to curriculum.  

I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was a
huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as has
been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair color
or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does audio
description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind people
in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things had
to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the ground
up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual description
or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.

When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They only do
educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and Juliet,
The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part of
Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
film. Including testing on the analysis.

Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could become
available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I can
tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of the
grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which they
definitely want.

We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important for
educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get our
voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first things
first. 


Sincerely, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider

Eric:

If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require 
it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid 
standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with 
the law.

That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we 
certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an 
art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems. 
(Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because 
they cannot present their output to the deaf?)

In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done 
described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite 
well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds 
which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by 
the blind.

What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille 
booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio 
descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one 
would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit 
descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --  
at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might 
even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large 
print. (grin)

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
imagined my boys on that Harley!

On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the 
screen
really is an art.
I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made 
it
more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that 
obvious.
Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
I know this gets debated.
For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
enhance the experience if done well.
It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
Best wishes,
Eric V

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>miss
> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark 
> glasses
> and
> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a 
> woman,
> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
> store
> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me 
> here to
> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley 
> motor
> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and 
> uses
> his
> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at 
> a
> car
> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
> hands
> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the 
> bike,
> he
> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then 
> the
> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the 
> bike
> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a 
> trailer
> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of 
> thing.
> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with 
> the
> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then 
> there
> is
> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>
> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
> something.
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
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>
>
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> blindkid:
>
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et


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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 15:40:19 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:40:19 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
Message-ID: <49394b69.c6c1f10a.5ae4.ffffd3fa@mx.google.com>

I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were taught
it....

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc
> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> cious%40suddenlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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com
>

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From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  5 15:42:50 2008
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:42:50 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] DVDs with Audio Description
Message-ID: <FED1973026AE43EA8765A91E4C9457C6@D3DTZP41>

MoPix Update from WGBH- December 5Hello List:

     I am forwarding the following from WGBH. The announcement mentions some new DVS movies, but also contains a link to information on DVDs that have descriptions. There were a few DVDs that had fully accessible menus. A few commercial DVDs have DVS tracks. Hope this is useful.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Mary Watkins 
To: ncam at wgbh.org 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:16 AM
Subject: MoPix Update from WGBH- December 5


If you received this message via a friend or a listserv and would like to learn about closed captioned and described films directly from the Media Access Group at WGBH, please subscribe at 
http://ncam.wgbh.org/mailinglist.html 

To make sure you continue to receive MoPix News e-mails optimally and in your inbox (not sent to bulk or junkmail folders), please add mary_watkins at wgbh.org to your address book or safe sender list. 

TWO NEW ACCESSIBLE FILMS BOW THIS WEEKEND

Cadillac Records from Sony Pictures
(cc only) (rated R)
In this tale of relationships, violence, race, and rock and roll in 1950s Chicago, "Cadillac Records" follows the exciting but turbulent lives of some of America's musical legends, including Muddy Waters, Leonard Chess, Little Walter, Howlin' Wolf, Etta James and Chuck Berry.

Frost/Nixon from Universal Pictures 
(cc dvs) (rated PG-13)
A dramatic retelling of the post-Watergate television interviews between British talk-show host David Frost and former president Richard Nixon. Directed by Ron Howard.

LIST OF DVDs WITH DVS TRACKS UPDATED

Please visit this page of the Media Access Group's site to learn which mainstream (sold in stores and online) DVDs include a description track created by WGBH:

http://main.wgbh.org/wgbh/pages/mag/resources/accessible-dvds.html

Most recent titles, or those soon to be available for sale or rent include:

Death Race (Universal Home Video, available 12/21)
Hellboy II: The Golden Army (Universal Home Video)
The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor (Universal Home Video, available 12/16)
Wanted (Universal Home Video)

"COMING SOON" MOPIX LOCATIONS... 

AMC Otay Ranch 12, Chula Vista, CA (Mopix system set to debut soon)
AMC Tyler 16, Riverside, CA (MoPix system to debut soon)
AMC Castleton Square 14 Theatre, Indianapolis, IN (MoPix system to debut soon)
Carmike Wynnsong 16, Johnston, IA (MoPix system, funded by the community! System to debut soon)
Rave Theatres 14 Omaha, Omaha, NE (New chain, funded by the community! System to debut in November)
National Amusements City Center 15, White Plains, NY (Second MoPix auditorium at this location coming soon!)
AMC Highland Village 12, Highland Village, TX (MoPix system to debut soon)

Link to the full list of over 300 MoPix-equipped theater locations at www.mopix.org. 

THEATER CHAIN WEB SITE ADDRESSES 

As several theater chains are now listing accessible films and showtimes on their Web sites, we want to take this opportunity to provide you with those site addresses. Helpful hint, some chains require you to know which theater in your area is equipped prior to finding the info on their sites. For a full list of MoPix locations, searchable by state, first go to www.mopix.org and link to "View Theaters". 

You can also search for captioned movies near you at fomdi.com 

AMC Theatres: http://www.moviewatcher.com/jsp/amg.jsp 

Carmike Theatres: 
http://www.carmike.com/showtimedetails.aspx?theatrenumber=075623 

CEC Theatres: http://www.cectheatres.com (link to state, and then theater) 

Cerrito Speakeasy Theatre:
http://www.cerritospeakeasy.com/calendar/index.html 

Cineplex Theatres (Canada): 
http://cineplex.com/Theatres/MovieTechnology.aspx?aud=rwcdvs 

Clearview Cinemas: http://clearviewcinemas.com/tripod.shtml 

Cobb Theatres:  http://www.cobbtheatres.com/ (link to equipped theater near you)

Empire Theatres (Canada): http://www.empiretheatres.com (link to province, 
then to theater) 

Celebration! Cinema RiverTown and Lansing Michigan: 
http://www.celebrationcinema.com (select RiverTown or
Lansing from list of locations) 

Kerasotes ShowPlace Theatres: www.kerasotes.com (select City North, Block E or the Glen 10 from the list of locations) 

Megaplex Theatres: 
http://www.megaplextheatres.com/nowshowingdetail.php?th_code=all 

National Amusements Showcase Cinemas and Cinema de Lux locations: 
http://www.nationalamusements.com/wireless 
(link to theater under state heading) 

Regal Cinemas:
http://www.regmovies.com/nowshowing/opencaptionedshowtimes.aspx#MA

Additional chains with MoPix systems are not yet listing MoPix-accessible film information on their sites at this time: Malco Theatres, Mann Theatres. 

NOW PLAYING 

Available with closed captions using the Rear Window Captioning system, and audio descriptions utilizing the DVS Theatrical System: 

Australia from Twentieth Century Fox Films
(drama/adventure - rated PG-13)

Bolt from Buena Vista 
(comedy/animated - rated PG)

Changeling from Universal Pictures 
(biography/crime/drama - rated R)

Four Christmases from Warner Bros. Pictures
(comedy - rated PG-13)

Frost/Nixon from Universal Pictures 
(historical drama) (rated PG-13)

High School Musical 3: Senior Year from Buena Vista Pictures 
(musical - rated G)

Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa from Paramount Pictures*
(animated - rated PG)

Quantum of Solace from Sony Pictures
(action/adventure - rated PG-13)

Role Models from Universal Pictures 
(comedy - rated R)

The Secret Life of Bees from Fox Searchlight
(drama - rated PG-13)

Twilight from Summit Entertainment
(fantasy/drama - rated PG-13)

Available with closed captions using the Rear Window Captioning system (descriptive narration is not available for these films):

Cadillac Records from Sony Pictures
(drama) (rated R)

Pride & Glory from Warner Bros. Pictures
(crime/drama - rated R)

RocknRolla from Warner Bros. Pictures
(action/crime - rated R)

MORE ACCESSIBLE MOVIES TO LOOK FORWARD TO IN THE NEXT MONTH
(plot descriptions from imdb.com)

The Day the Earth Stood Still from Twentieth Century Fox Films 
(Dec 12) (cc dvs)
A big-budget remake of the 1951 classic sci-fi film about an alien visitor and his giant robot counterpart who visit Earth.

Defiance from Paramount Vantage* 
(Dec 12) (cc only)
Three Jewish brothers escape from Nazi-occupied Poland into the Belarussian forest, where they join Russian resistance fighters and endeavor to build a village in order to protect themselves and others in danger.

New! Gran Torino from Warner Bros. Pictures
(Dec 12) (cc only)
Disgruntled Korean War vet Walt Kowalski (Clint Eastwood, who also directs the film) sets out to reform his neighbor, a young Hmong teenager, who tried to steal Kowalski's prized possesion: his 1972 Gran Torino.

Nothing Like the Holidays from Overture Films 
(Dec 12) (cc only)
A Puerto Rican family living in the area of Humboldt Park in west Chicago face what may be their last Christmas together.

Seven Pounds from Sony Pictures 
(Dec 12) (cc dvs)
An IRS agent with a fateful secret embarks on an extraordinary journey of redemption by forever changing the lives of seven strangers.

New! Slumdog Millionaire from Fox Searchlight
(Dec 19 expanded release) (cc dvs)
The story of how impoverished Indian teen Jamal Malik became a contestant on the Hindi version of "Who Wants to be A Millionaire?" -- an endeavor made without prize money in mind, rather, an effort to prove his love for his friend Latika, who is an ardent fan of the show.

The Tale of Despereaux from Universal Pictures 
(Dec 19) (cc dvs)
The tale of three unlikely heroes-- a misfit mouse who prefers reading books to eating them, an unhappy rat who schemes to leave the darkness of the dungeon, and a bumbling servant girl with cauliflower ears-- whose fates are intertwined with that of the castle's princess

Yes Man from Warner Bros. Pictures 
(Dec 19) (cc dvs)
Jim Carrey stars as a guy who challenges himself to say "yes" to everything for an entire year.

Bedtime Stories from Buena Vista Pictures 
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
Adam Sandler stars in this family comedy about a hotel handyman whose life changes when the lavish bedtime stories he tells his niece and nephew start to magically come true.

The Curious Case of Benjamin Button from Paramount Pictures*
(Dec 25) (cc only)
Brad Pitt, Cate Blanchett and Tilda Swinton in the story of Benjamin Button, a man who starts aging backwards with bizarre consequences.

Marley and Me from Twentieth Century Fox Films 
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
Based on the best-selling book, a family learns important life lessons from their adorable, but naughty and neurotic dog. Starring Owen Wilson and Jennifer Aniston.

Valkyrie from MGM
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
At the height of WW2, a group of high-ranking German officers hatched a plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler, and seize power of the military command in order to end the war. The operation was codenamed "Valkyrie", for the emergency plan that was meant to be used in case of a revolt against the Nazi government. This plan had been modified by the conspirators to ensure their success, but for various reasons the plot failed when finally carried out on 20 July 1944. The conspirators of the inner circle were shot after a kangaroo trial or sentenced to death soon after. Tom Cruise stars.

New! The Reader
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
Post-WWII Germany: Nearly a decade after his affair with an older woman came to a mysterious end, law student Michael Burk re-encounters his former lover (Winslet) as she defends herself in a war-crime trial.

Revolutionary Road from Paramount Vantage*
(Dec 26) (cc only)
A young couple living in a Connecticut suburb during the mid-1950s struggle to come to terms with their personal problems while trying to raise their two children. Based on a novel by Richard Yates and starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet.


* WGBH has developed a conversion process to enable select Paramount and DreamWorks films to be available via Rear Window Captioning systems. Some of these titles will also be available with descriptions. The latter will be designated "description" vs. DVS in our Updates to indicate availability of that feature, though WGBH did not create those descriptions. 

-- 
CREDITS 

Closed captioning and description of films provided by the Media Access Group at WGBH, a nonprofit division of Boston public broadcaster WGBH. The Rear Window Captioning and DVS Theatrical systems were developed by WGBH to make feature films accessible the date films open in theaters nationwide- and during regular showtimes- to movie fans who are deaf, hard-of-hearing, blind or visually impaired. 

For more information on the WGBH's Motion Picture Access (MoPix) efforts, including how to encourage a theater in your area to install the access systems, please visit <www.mopix.org >, e-mail access at wgbh.org or call 617 300-3700 v, 617 300-2489 TTY. 

- - 
Media Access Group at WGBH 
mary_watkins at wgbh.org 
< http://access.wgbh.org > 
One Guest Street
Boston, MA  02135
617 300-3700 v/fax, 617 300-2489 TTY    


From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Dec  5 16:06:39 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:06:39 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <4937f029.1b3e400a.2014.fffff57c@mx.google.com>
	<813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4937f029.1b3e400a.2014.fffff57c@mx.google.com>
	<813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS19116FD8F8D978A62714BEBFE0@phx.gbl>

Do you have the tools also or do I have to squeeze them in somewhere when 
she gets here.  Oh, and have you put in the concrete pad to put it on?

Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

> Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Super! You build I'll supervise!
> You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
> keeps getting bigger and bigger!
>
> Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I
> actually did help my parents build so know how.
>
> LOL!
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Dec  5 16:23:24 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:23:24 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49386e96.86c3f10a.6113.2c67@mx.google.com>
	<E8719E5EE93C41CCBFE03DFD860B7560@WHOZIT>
References: <813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49386e96.86c3f10a.6113.2c67@mx.google.com>
	<E8719E5EE93C41CCBFE03DFD860B7560@WHOZIT>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS15338E1B44C026EC591F7EBFE0@phx.gbl>

It would take her that long driving from where she lives.  She's in 
Minnesota, I'm in Iowa.  Deb is in Florida.
I'm looking forward to the balmy weather.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael Freholm" <mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:31 PM
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

> Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
> I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
> the car!
> Michael
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> On my way! It was 15 for a high here today!
> Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
> Be ready!
>
> Good thing gas is cheap.
>
> Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie...
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Debby B
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Super! You build I'll supervise!
> You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
> keeps getting bigger and bigger!
>
> Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I
> actually did help my parents build so know how.
>
> LOL!
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mfreholm%40unbridl
> edaccess.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 17:55:09 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:55:09 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] DVDs with Audio Description
In-Reply-To: <FED1973026AE43EA8765A91E4C9457C6@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <49396b04.47c2f10a.5b60.2671@mx.google.com>

Thanks Robert-I knew WGBH had done more entertainment as well as
educational, but was unsure what the current was or their links...
I know they recently had some significant downsizing, but can't recall the
details...thanks for linking them in as well, they have also been at this a
long time and have made great efforts to do it professionally and with user
input...
The digital will be providing much more control than the VHS ever
could...this will be a good thing.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:43 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] DVDs with Audio Description

MoPix Update from WGBH- December 5Hello List:

     I am forwarding the following from WGBH. The announcement mentions some
new DVS movies, but also contains a link to information on DVDs that have
descriptions. There were a few DVDs that had fully accessible menus. A few
commercial DVDs have DVS tracks. Hope this is useful.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Mary Watkins 
To: ncam at wgbh.org 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:16 AM
Subject: MoPix Update from WGBH- December 5


If you received this message via a friend or a listserv and would like to
learn about closed captioned and described films directly from the Media
Access Group at WGBH, please subscribe at 
http://ncam.wgbh.org/mailinglist.html 

To make sure you continue to receive MoPix News e-mails optimally and in
your inbox (not sent to bulk or junkmail folders), please add
mary_watkins at wgbh.org to your address book or safe sender list. 

TWO NEW ACCESSIBLE FILMS BOW THIS WEEKEND

Cadillac Records from Sony Pictures
(cc only) (rated R)
In this tale of relationships, violence, race, and rock and roll in 1950s
Chicago, "Cadillac Records" follows the exciting but turbulent lives of some
of America's musical legends, including Muddy Waters, Leonard Chess, Little
Walter, Howlin' Wolf, Etta James and Chuck Berry.

Frost/Nixon from Universal Pictures 
(cc dvs) (rated PG-13)
A dramatic retelling of the post-Watergate television interviews between
British talk-show host David Frost and former president Richard Nixon.
Directed by Ron Howard.

LIST OF DVDs WITH DVS TRACKS UPDATED

Please visit this page of the Media Access Group's site to learn which
mainstream (sold in stores and online) DVDs include a description track
created by WGBH:

http://main.wgbh.org/wgbh/pages/mag/resources/accessible-dvds.html

Most recent titles, or those soon to be available for sale or rent include:

Death Race (Universal Home Video, available 12/21)
Hellboy II: The Golden Army (Universal Home Video)
The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor (Universal Home Video, available
12/16)
Wanted (Universal Home Video)

"COMING SOON" MOPIX LOCATIONS... 

AMC Otay Ranch 12, Chula Vista, CA (Mopix system set to debut soon)
AMC Tyler 16, Riverside, CA (MoPix system to debut soon)
AMC Castleton Square 14 Theatre, Indianapolis, IN (MoPix system to debut
soon)
Carmike Wynnsong 16, Johnston, IA (MoPix system, funded by the community!
System to debut soon)
Rave Theatres 14 Omaha, Omaha, NE (New chain, funded by the community!
System to debut in November)
National Amusements City Center 15, White Plains, NY (Second MoPix
auditorium at this location coming soon!)
AMC Highland Village 12, Highland Village, TX (MoPix system to debut soon)

Link to the full list of over 300 MoPix-equipped theater locations at
www.mopix.org. 

THEATER CHAIN WEB SITE ADDRESSES 

As several theater chains are now listing accessible films and showtimes on
their Web sites, we want to take this opportunity to provide you with those
site addresses. Helpful hint, some chains require you to know which theater
in your area is equipped prior to finding the info on their sites. For a
full list of MoPix locations, searchable by state, first go to www.mopix.org
and link to "View Theaters". 

You can also search for captioned movies near you at fomdi.com 

AMC Theatres: http://www.moviewatcher.com/jsp/amg.jsp 

Carmike Theatres: 
http://www.carmike.com/showtimedetails.aspx?theatrenumber=075623 

CEC Theatres: http://www.cectheatres.com (link to state, and then theater) 

Cerrito Speakeasy Theatre:
http://www.cerritospeakeasy.com/calendar/index.html 

Cineplex Theatres (Canada): 
http://cineplex.com/Theatres/MovieTechnology.aspx?aud=rwcdvs 

Clearview Cinemas: http://clearviewcinemas.com/tripod.shtml 

Cobb Theatres:  http://www.cobbtheatres.com/ (link to equipped theater near
you)

Empire Theatres (Canada): http://www.empiretheatres.com (link to province, 
then to theater) 

Celebration! Cinema RiverTown and Lansing Michigan: 
http://www.celebrationcinema.com (select RiverTown or
Lansing from list of locations) 

Kerasotes ShowPlace Theatres: www.kerasotes.com (select City North, Block E
or the Glen 10 from the list of locations) 

Megaplex Theatres: 
http://www.megaplextheatres.com/nowshowingdetail.php?th_code=all 

National Amusements Showcase Cinemas and Cinema de Lux locations: 
http://www.nationalamusements.com/wireless 
(link to theater under state heading) 

Regal Cinemas:
http://www.regmovies.com/nowshowing/opencaptionedshowtimes.aspx#MA

Additional chains with MoPix systems are not yet listing MoPix-accessible
film information on their sites at this time: Malco Theatres, Mann Theatres.


NOW PLAYING 

Available with closed captions using the Rear Window Captioning system, and
audio descriptions utilizing the DVS Theatrical System: 

Australia from Twentieth Century Fox Films
(drama/adventure - rated PG-13)

Bolt from Buena Vista 
(comedy/animated - rated PG)

Changeling from Universal Pictures 
(biography/crime/drama - rated R)

Four Christmases from Warner Bros. Pictures
(comedy - rated PG-13)

Frost/Nixon from Universal Pictures 
(historical drama) (rated PG-13)

High School Musical 3: Senior Year from Buena Vista Pictures 
(musical - rated G)

Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa from Paramount Pictures*
(animated - rated PG)

Quantum of Solace from Sony Pictures
(action/adventure - rated PG-13)

Role Models from Universal Pictures 
(comedy - rated R)

The Secret Life of Bees from Fox Searchlight
(drama - rated PG-13)

Twilight from Summit Entertainment
(fantasy/drama - rated PG-13)

Available with closed captions using the Rear Window Captioning system
(descriptive narration is not available for these films):

Cadillac Records from Sony Pictures
(drama) (rated R)

Pride & Glory from Warner Bros. Pictures
(crime/drama - rated R)

RocknRolla from Warner Bros. Pictures
(action/crime - rated R)

MORE ACCESSIBLE MOVIES TO LOOK FORWARD TO IN THE NEXT MONTH
(plot descriptions from imdb.com)

The Day the Earth Stood Still from Twentieth Century Fox Films 
(Dec 12) (cc dvs)
A big-budget remake of the 1951 classic sci-fi film about an alien visitor
and his giant robot counterpart who visit Earth.

Defiance from Paramount Vantage* 
(Dec 12) (cc only)
Three Jewish brothers escape from Nazi-occupied Poland into the Belarussian
forest, where they join Russian resistance fighters and endeavor to build a
village in order to protect themselves and others in danger.

New! Gran Torino from Warner Bros. Pictures
(Dec 12) (cc only)
Disgruntled Korean War vet Walt Kowalski (Clint Eastwood, who also directs
the film) sets out to reform his neighbor, a young Hmong teenager, who tried
to steal Kowalski's prized possesion: his 1972 Gran Torino.

Nothing Like the Holidays from Overture Films 
(Dec 12) (cc only)
A Puerto Rican family living in the area of Humboldt Park in west Chicago
face what may be their last Christmas together.

Seven Pounds from Sony Pictures 
(Dec 12) (cc dvs)
An IRS agent with a fateful secret embarks on an extraordinary journey of
redemption by forever changing the lives of seven strangers.

New! Slumdog Millionaire from Fox Searchlight
(Dec 19 expanded release) (cc dvs)
The story of how impoverished Indian teen Jamal Malik became a contestant on
the Hindi version of "Who Wants to be A Millionaire?" -- an endeavor made
without prize money in mind, rather, an effort to prove his love for his
friend Latika, who is an ardent fan of the show.

The Tale of Despereaux from Universal Pictures 
(Dec 19) (cc dvs)
The tale of three unlikely heroes-- a misfit mouse who prefers reading books
to eating them, an unhappy rat who schemes to leave the darkness of the
dungeon, and a bumbling servant girl with cauliflower ears-- whose fates are
intertwined with that of the castle's princess

Yes Man from Warner Bros. Pictures 
(Dec 19) (cc dvs)
Jim Carrey stars as a guy who challenges himself to say "yes" to everything
for an entire year.

Bedtime Stories from Buena Vista Pictures 
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
Adam Sandler stars in this family comedy about a hotel handyman whose life
changes when the lavish bedtime stories he tells his niece and nephew start
to magically come true.

The Curious Case of Benjamin Button from Paramount Pictures*
(Dec 25) (cc only)
Brad Pitt, Cate Blanchett and Tilda Swinton in the story of Benjamin Button,
a man who starts aging backwards with bizarre consequences.

Marley and Me from Twentieth Century Fox Films 
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
Based on the best-selling book, a family learns important life lessons from
their adorable, but naughty and neurotic dog. Starring Owen Wilson and
Jennifer Aniston.

Valkyrie from MGM
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
At the height of WW2, a group of high-ranking German officers hatched a plot
to assassinate Adolf Hitler, and seize power of the military command in
order to end the war. The operation was codenamed "Valkyrie", for the
emergency plan that was meant to be used in case of a revolt against the
Nazi government. This plan had been modified by the conspirators to ensure
their success, but for various reasons the plot failed when finally carried
out on 20 July 1944. The conspirators of the inner circle were shot after a
kangaroo trial or sentenced to death soon after. Tom Cruise stars.

New! The Reader
(Dec 25) (cc dvs)
Post-WWII Germany: Nearly a decade after his affair with an older woman came
to a mysterious end, law student Michael Burk re-encounters his former lover
(Winslet) as she defends herself in a war-crime trial.

Revolutionary Road from Paramount Vantage*
(Dec 26) (cc only)
A young couple living in a Connecticut suburb during the mid-1950s struggle
to come to terms with their personal problems while trying to raise their
two children. Based on a novel by Richard Yates and starring Leonardo
DiCaprio and Kate Winslet.


* WGBH has developed a conversion process to enable select Paramount and
DreamWorks films to be available via Rear Window Captioning systems. Some of
these titles will also be available with descriptions. The latter will be
designated "description" vs. DVS in our Updates to indicate availability of
that feature, though WGBH did not create those descriptions. 

-- 
CREDITS 

Closed captioning and description of films provided by the Media Access
Group at WGBH, a nonprofit division of Boston public broadcaster WGBH. The
Rear Window Captioning and DVS Theatrical systems were developed by WGBH to
make feature films accessible the date films open in theaters nationwide-
and during regular showtimes- to movie fans who are deaf, hard-of-hearing,
blind or visually impaired. 

For more information on the WGBH's Motion Picture Access (MoPix) efforts,
including how to encourage a theater in your area to install the access
systems, please visit <www.mopix.org >, e-mail access at wgbh.org or call 617
300-3700 v, 617 300-2489 TTY. 

- - 
Media Access Group at WGBH 
mary_watkins at wgbh.org 
< http://access.wgbh.org > 
One Guest Street
Boston, MA  02135
617 300-3700 v/fax, 617 300-2489 TTY    
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com  Fri Dec  5 18:28:17 2008
From: mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com (Michael Freholm)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:28:17 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS15338E1B44C026EC591F7EBFE0@phx.gbl>
References: <813314.16580.qm@web90501.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49386e96.86c3f10a.6113.2c67@mx.google.com><E8719E5EE93C41CCBFE03DFD860B7560@WHOZIT>
	<BAY113-DS15338E1B44C026EC591F7EBFE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <60225D50DE164546A3C070636034D875@WHOZIT>

Yeah, that was the funny part. smile

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:23 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

It would take her that long driving from where she lives.  She's in 
Minnesota, I'm in Iowa.  Deb is in Florida.
I'm looking forward to the balmy weather.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael Freholm" <mfreholm at unbridledaccess.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:31 PM
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

> Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
> I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
> the car!
> Michael
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> On my way! It was 15 for a high here today!
> Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
> Be ready!
>
> Good thing gas is cheap.
>
> Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie...
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Debby B
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Super! You build I'll supervise!
> You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
> keeps getting bigger and bigger!
>
> Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I
> actually did help my parents build so know how.
>
> LOL!
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mfreholm%40unbridl
> edaccess.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
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m
> 

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From andysally at comcast.net  Fri Dec  5 18:59:39 2008
From: andysally at comcast.net (Andy & Sally Thomas)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:59:39 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
References: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <37FD9988300E484CB15B394249D35E44@andysallyhome>

You guys were having so much fun and no one was getting hurt so I just 
thought I'd let you play.  No harm in dreaming about warm Florida weather 
and new storage!

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions


> It is 12 degrees, gas is $1.60 a gallon and I have 199,995 miles on my 
> van.
> My neighbor has a scooter we can borrow. You are right on the way Michael!
>
> Now where are those moderators I hired to keep us on task/message?
>
> This has been a test of the emergency moderator system...
>
> LOL
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Freholm
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:32 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
> I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
> the car!
> Michael
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> On my way! It was 15 for a high here today!
> Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
> Be ready!
>
> Good thing gas is cheap.
>
> Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie...
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Debby B
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Super! You build I'll supervise!
> You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
> keeps getting bigger and bigger!
>
> Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I
> actually did help my parents build so know how.
>
> LOL!
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mfreholm%40unbridl
> edaccess.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/andysally%40comcast.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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9:57 AM




From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Dec  5 19:05:28 2008
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:05:28 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
References: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <002901c9570c$71761d40$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Carrie and listers,

    Have you invited Caption Max to the national convention? Perhaps a 
resolution to modify our position on video description would be in order 
given that it's being used in educational institutions more heavily than it 
once was. You can also obtain described videos from NASA. Information about 
them can be accessed from:
http://www.blindscience.org

    You can find links to NASA'S videos from various places in the 
"Resources" area. JMO.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


Dear Mike, and Eric,

I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things did
not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in a
way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what the
blind need.

That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the following
first term grade slip for social studies:
A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.

All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with accompanying
assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear indication
of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was graded
or a key component to curriculum.

I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was a
huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as has
been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair color
or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does audio
description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind people
in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things had
to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the ground
up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual description
or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.

When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They only do
educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and Juliet,
The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part of
Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
film. Including testing on the analysis.

Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could become
available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I can
tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of the
grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which they
definitely want.

We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important for
educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get our
voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first things
first.


Sincerely,

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider

Eric:

If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
the law.

That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
(Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
they cannot present their output to the deaf?)

In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
the blind.

What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
print. (grin)

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
imagined my boys on that Harley!

On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
screen
really is an art.
I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
it
more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
obvious.
Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
I know this gets debated.
For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
enhance the experience if done well.
It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
Best wishes,
Eric V

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>miss
> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
> glasses
> and
> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
> woman,
> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
> store
> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
> here to
> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
> motor
> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
> uses
> his
> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
> a
> car
> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
> hands
> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
> bike,
> he
> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
> the
> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
> bike
> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
> trailer
> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
> thing.
> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
> the
> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
> there
> is
> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>
> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
> something.
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
et


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ail.com


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From attorneywalker at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 22:15:13 2008
From: attorneywalker at gmail.com (Carlton Anne Cook Walker)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:15:13 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
Message-ID: <aa85e5850812051415j9ca651cnc23e59876712bea4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
Accelerated Reader (AR) program.

My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
And Interpreting Pictures program.


We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
would have improved by now.



This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.



Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?



Take care all!!



Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383



From kah-az at cox.net  Fri Dec  5 22:34:30 2008
From: kah-az at cox.net (Kathy - Arizona)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:34:30 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
	<37FD9988300E484CB15B394249D35E44@andysallyhome>
Message-ID: <B1B79E13F7834A3588788FA5E9EB2584@DKAHG>

Gee, my hubby & I are great at making lofts, & putting on all the little 
special touches..........but we're in Arizona & the weather's 75 and sunny 
out today.....maybe some of you should spend a week out here with us!  We 
can let you shovel sunshine if you'd rather!

Kathy
Arizona NFB - Parents Division


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy & Sally Thomas" <andysally at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions


> You guys were having so much fun and no one was getting hurt so I just
> thought I'd let you play.  No harm in dreaming about warm Florida weather
> and new storage!
>
> Sally Thomas




From aruell at nbp.org  Sat Dec  6 00:58:07 2008
From: aruell at nbp.org (Amy Ruell)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:58:07 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5850812051415j9ca651cnc23e59876712bea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AF4A72431796434193449D2651B75A81@amy3a94b6b753e>

Hi,
What was the book in question?
Wonder how many books in these series are like this.
Amy


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:15 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??


Hi all,

Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
Accelerated Reader (AR) program.

My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
And Interpreting Pictures program.


We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
would have improved by now.



This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.



Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?



Take care all!!



Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383

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From kah-az at cox.net  Sat Dec  6 02:00:46 2008
From: kah-az at cox.net (Kathy - Arizona)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:00:46 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
References: <aa85e5850812051415j9ca651cnc23e59876712bea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C74C52E1A2A741DDA4E442ABD661C5DA@DKAHG>

To answer your question, Carlton:  "When they get into reading chapter 
books, and there's barely any pictures! "


My daughter is in her 20's now & yes, the Accelerated Reader program has 
been around since she was that young!  Your description of what she is doing 
made me realize wheels move very slowly in school programs, too.  From the 
time my daughter was taking those same tests.  ESPECIALLY if it's a 
Caldecott winner, it's hard - without a sighted person, to describe a story. 
No matter how much description of a picture, a Caldecott is just that - an 
award winning book with award-winning illustrations.  My daughter says she 
didn't start, though, that young.  She remembers reading lots of the classic 
authors, and testing on "chapter-books", but she was in 3rd-4th grade when 
they brought the program to her school.  There will be a LOT less pictures 
soon enough, and those are the real stories that will tempt her imagination, 
and start her real love of reading.  In the meantime, you just describe a 
lot, or if it's your book, add the description to each page.  If I didn't 
Braille it (borrowed book from their list), I described and described 
verbally.

I know I never let her not answer a question because of a picture.  I let 
her know that there would be times. that unless she adapted her work a 
little, she would not have the same perceptions the other children do.  In 
Caldecotts, it does matter...also with some pictures in school books, but 
THAT'S yet another whole ballgame.  As she gets older, open her up to the 
wide/varied books that are Newbury Award winners.  She will get a hugely 
wide-range of stories, and are still wonderful 20 years later.  My daughter 
used to know each & every one - and that even helped when she took courses 
for teaching in college.  She's still a very, very avid reader - and now her 
job depends upon all that reading!

I know that AR program directly gave her a jump-start on that love of 
reading.  She also loved the competition of how many of their AR 
booklist-books she could get through, as at the end of the school year, 
there were prizes for top readers - just like so many of our "Braille 
Readers Are Readers" kids participate in.  (And taking those tests had to be 
read to her as Jaws wasn't even available or even invented? back then!) 
Omigosh, I can't even imagine that!   *smile*   *feeling old*


Kathy
President
POBC - AZ




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:15 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??


> Hi all,
>
> Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
> need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
> Accelerated Reader (AR) program.
>
> My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
> at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
> on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
> the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
> this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
> And Interpreting Pictures program.
>
>
> We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
> would have improved by now.
>
>
>
> This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
> Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
> Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
> they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
> REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
> me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.
>
>
>
> Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?
>
>
>
> Take care all!!
>
>
>
> Carlton
>
> -- 
> Carlton Anne Cook Walker
> 213 North First Street
> McConnellsburg, PA    17233
> Voice: 717-485-3383
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/kah-az%40cox.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Sat Dec  6 04:42:34 2008
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:42:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Fw: [Artbeyondsightmuseums] Touch and Verbal Description
	Tours at theMount Vernon Hotel Museum
Message-ID: <A60892E7C6114390B55CEC161818B2AF@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     If anyone is going to New York, this may be of interest.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deborah O'Neill" <d.oneill at mvhm.org>
To: <Artbeyondsightmuseums at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 2:37 PM
Subject: [Artbeyondsightmuseums] Touch and Verbal Description Tours at 
theMount Vernon Hotel Museum


> The Mount Vernon Hotel Museum is pleased to offered Touch Collection  and 
> Verbal Description Tours of its eight beautifully furnished period  rooms. 
> We would like to know if this information can be posted on  your events 
> page or  if you could please give us listing under museum  offerings.
>
> The Mount Vernon Hotel Museum is a historic house located on East 61 
> Street in Manhattan that has programs for visitors of all ages.  The 
> museum transports visitors back to the time when our 1799 building was 
> the Mount Vernon Hotel.  Objects from the Museum handling collection  will 
> be available for children to explore when the hotel was a country  retreat 
> and most New Yorkers lived south of 14th Street.  The museum  features 8 
> period rooms furnished with beautiful artifacts from the  early 1800s. 
> Using sighted guided techniques, our staff and docents  will lead your 
> clients on an exploration of life long ago through an  examination of our 
> touch collection objects and a detailed verbal  description of our lovely 
> furnishings.
>
> For more information, call 212 838-6878, ext. 26.  To learn more about 
> the museum, please visit our website at www.mvhm.org.
>
> If you have any questions, please let me know.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Deborah O'Neill
> Director of Education
> Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden
> 421 East 61st Street
> New York, NY  10065
> (212) 838-6878
> www.mvhm.org
> _______________________________________________
> Artbeyondsightmuseums mailing list
> Artbeyondsightmuseums at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/artbeyondsightmuseums_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Artbeyondsightmuseums:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/artbeyondsightmuseums_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 




From icdx at earthlink.net  Sat Dec  6 05:57:26 2008
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:57:26 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Beginner's Spanish Audioprogram Recommendation
Message-ID: <000d01c95767$84b19b90$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>

Hi Everyone,
My sixth grader wants to take Spanish next year.
I would like to give him a jump start via good audio/CD program which I would hope to transfer to his BrailleNote.
Does anyone have a specific recommendation of such a great program?
Thanks
Eric Vasiliauskas

From icdx at earthlink.net  Sat Dec  6 06:56:44 2008
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:56:44 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
References: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <002901c9576f$cd210750$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>

A few more thoughts...

I agree that description is a skill that can be taught, but just as is seen 
in many professions, some people can go through the motions & get the job 
done in a sub-adequate or an adequate manner, while others just have a 
natural knack for certain things & take it to the next level & do an 
outstanding job.

We have all met teachers who are good, bad, or outstanding - this is often 
not just a matter of training or experience -> that comes from within.

You may have heard the joke: "What do you call the person who graduates at 
the bottom of their medical school class?" -> "You call them 'Doctor.'" 
There are many doctors that are "book smart" , who have published many 
research articles, or who can quote statistics of endless research studies, 
but when it comes to taking care of patients, they may not very good 
clinicians & some of the best clinicians in some areas may not have gone to 
the "best schools" or have been that "book smart". Research studies in 
medicine often don't reflect individual patient realities. When it comes to 
the practice of medicine, I do believe in "the art of medicine". Call it 
what you like, but some people intuitively do some things much better than 
others with the same level (or perhaps even more) of training or experience.

I admittedly don't know the whole history behind the audio-description. In 
the last few emails, apples & oranges are already being mixed.

When it comes to educational issues, then if videos are to be used as part 
of the district or classroom curriculum, then it should in fact be mandated 
that they be made available in an accessible format. As has been pointed out 
there are different ways of achieving accessibility. Likewise, I feel it 
should be mandated (yes mandated) that any educational CD/DVD/web-based 
curriculums & even web-based school calendars (which our district kids are 
encouraged or required to look at as early as elementarily school) be 
accessible. If the school district or state dept of education has deemed a 
video or web-based teaching tool as being important for the education of 
students in that district or state, then they should be required to assure 
appropriate accessibility to blind students. There is a strong move towards 
web-based teaching & testing. Now is the time to be intervening & setting 
standards.

 As far as pleasure/recreation movies, etc go, that is a different issue. 
Unlike the money issue, I don't buy the position that adding 
audio-descriptions to a DVD would be "putting an undue burden on society" -> 
companies already have tracks with subtitles in various languages, or 
optional overlaying director commentaries, or that are dubbed in various 
languages. It just doesn't seem that this would be hard or overwhelmingly 
burdensome to do.

 I suspect a comparable issue to audio-description would be that of close 
captioning for the deaf. I just googled I briefly look at an FCC webpage 
(www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/closedcaption.html). Here are the first 2 
paragraphs:

"Closed captioning allows persons with hearing disabilities to have access 
to television programming by displaying the audio portion of a television 
program as text on the television screen. Beginning in July 1993, the 
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) required all analog television 
receivers with screens 13 inches or larger sold or manufactured in the 
United States to contain built-in decoder circuitry to display closed 
captioning. Beginning July 1, 2002, the FCC also required that digital 
television (DTV) receivers include closed captioning display capability. "

"In 1996, Congress required video programming distributors (cable operators, 
broadcasters, satellite distributors, and other multi-channel video 
programming distributors) to close caption their television programs. In 
1997, the FCC set a transition schedule requiring distributors to provide an 
increasing amount of captioned programming, as summarized below."

I did not read the whole page, nor have I done any research into this, but 
one could make the argument that there is some sort of precedent. I don't 
know how the deaf community feels about government intervention in this 
area.

Based on what I know & what my kids are experiencing, I guess I would be in 
favor of "encouraging" audio-description, not necessarily mandating it. I 
can't think of a good reason to discourage audio-description.

Take care,

Eric




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 07:01
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>
> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things 
> did
> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in a
> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what the
> blind need.
>
> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the following
> first term grade slip for social studies:
> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>
> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with 
> accompanying
> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear indication
> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was 
> graded
> or a key component to curriculum.
>
> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was a
> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as has
> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair 
> color
> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does 
> audio
> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind people
> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things had
> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the 
> ground
> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual 
> description
> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>
> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They only 
> do
> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and 
> Juliet,
> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part of
> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>
> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could become
> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I 
> can
> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of 
> the
> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which they
> definitely want.
>
> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important for
> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get our
> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first 
> things
> first.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> Eric:
>
> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
> the law.
>
> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>
> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
> the blind.
>
> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
> print. (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>
> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
> screen
> really is an art.
> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
> it
> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
> obvious.
> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
> I know this gets debated.
> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
> enhance the experience if done well.
> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
> Best wishes,
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>miss
>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>> glasses
>> and
>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>> woman,
>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>> store
>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>> here to
>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>> motor
>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>> uses
>> his
>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>> a
>> car
>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>> hands
>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>> bike,
>> he
>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>> the
>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>> bike
>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>> trailer
>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>> thing.
>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>> the
>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>> there
>> is
>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>
>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>> something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>> ail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ail.com
>
>
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From kim at gulfimagesphoto.com  Sat Dec  6 13:43:04 2008
From: kim at gulfimagesphoto.com (Kim Cunningham)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 05:43:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <7CE675E665B94C5E941175BBC5927DAD@Family>
Message-ID: <392701.46547.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I wanted to offer our solution to the "storage issue" as we have a very small home also. My daughter had a small closet in her room with bi-fold doors that opened to a hanging rod and one shelf above the rod. The doors were very restrictive to get things in and out of the closet, especially in the areas where the drywall surrounded the opening of the closet. Our solution was to use a jigsaw and cut the drywall out, opening the entire closet with no door. We?cut out the entire opening of the closet from top to bottom.?We then used MDF board or plywood to make one large top shelf (from the back to the front of the closet. Not a "quarter shelf that was previously installed). This shelve?will allow for four sets of 2 clear plastic tubs to be stored on them. Then we split the bottom part into three sections by cutting sheets of MDF again and nailing them in a horizontal position. One section is for hanging dressess and coats (anything long), one section
 with two hanging rods (one above the other) for shirts and pants, and the third section we nailed thin strips of wood to make drawer guides for the?vaious height?plastic tubs - applied drawer pulls to them and "voila" a much more accessible closet. We also attached a shower curtain and rod on the clothing portion of the closet for neatness. I can supply a picture if my description isn't clear.
Another great storage solution is a tool box. I'm talking about the kind with wheels and has various depth drawers. We inherited a new one and I found the drawers perfect for storing many items in a non-cluttered way. Some of the drawers are deep, some thin. Plus it can be moved around as needed. You can make braille labels for items in each drawer.
My husband also made a loft bed for my daughter that she will carry to college with her. It is made of 2x4's and extremely sturdy. There are many free plans online to make your own bed. 
I hope that some of our ideas can help!
Kim Cunningham
TPOBC


--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Tracey <tracey.vince at telus.net> wrote:

From: Tracey <tracey.vince at telus.net>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 9:42 AM

Great question!  I can't wait to hear the responses.  This is a never ending

issue with us as well!

Tracey
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <bvi-parents at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:33 AM
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions


>
> We need some storage solutions! We're in a house with no garage, no 
> basement, no attic space, very small closets. Where do you store all the 
> Braille books and games?
>
> Winona has 3 tall bookcases in her room all full without. 1 bookcase with 
> her personal books, toys, little goodies. We still have 6 boxes of books 
> that aren't unpacked. There is no place to store the boxes full of
books, 
> and it's easier for Winona to get to them on bookcases. All the
teachers 
> have a variety of books, and they jump around in them.
>
> Our other issue is the games. We turned half the linen closet into a game 
> cabinet, but most of the adapted games (scrabble, monopoly) won't even
fit 
> into that cabinet. Where do you store things so that they are accessible 
> and yet not sitting around to be tripped over?
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tracey.vince%40telus.net
> 



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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 14:59:34 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:59:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5850812051415j9ca651cnc23e59876712bea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493a9366.1e3e400a.1f41.ffffcb29@mx.google.com>

Dear Carlton,
I am so glad you have pointed this out. I had not heard this about the AR
specifically before. We are taking a close look at online and computer based
tests and gathering information on a national level. I am forwarding your
concerns on. Thank you for bringing it up. If anyone has any troubled
experience with online tests or experience in attempting to contact or work
with a testing company--or you have experience with something working
well... please send me your experience asap.

And thanks for the nice words for me Carlton...smile. 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:15 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

Hi all,

Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
Accelerated Reader (AR) program.

My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
And Interpreting Pictures program.


We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
would have improved by now.



This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.



Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?



Take care all!!



Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 15:22:20 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 09:22:20 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
In-Reply-To: <002901c9576f$cd210750$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <493a98b3.0917400a.1f3b.ffff95e1@mx.google.com>

Dear Eric,
Yes I agree with your points and the subtleties of the differences,
nuances...and I know the doctor joke. Yes some people seem "born" to teach
or whatever, and some have to learn it and it is always unnatural and then
there are the In'betweeners...
What I meant is that it isn't an art that like true art is totally left up
to individual interpretation, and there can be standards, and it can be
learned like other forms of interpreting (it isn't exactly like interpreting
but similar)

I never meant to say we have not wanted descriptive video because that
(DVS)placed an undue burden itself--I meant the "burden" or responsibility
is something we look at carefully and do not assume society to just
take...on any access issue. Some say access no matter the cost or who
pays!...we say lets be reasonable and discover where is it right or best who
pays...and is the cost worth the benefit. Example...those "Braille for feet"
things at all newly constructed street corners. We did not want that in the
law. They do not really help, and may make it more difficult at a corner for
someone in a stroller or wheelchair, yet some pushed it into law---now those
$$$$ hundreds of thousands are being spent---for what??? They have been
viewed as necessary as the sloped corners for wheelchairs...when there is no
comparison or real similarity...we already could tell a corner just by the
slope!!! I meant LIKE with the money we have looked at the issue, and
debated amongst ourselves, from all sides...including if it is an undue
burden--does society pay or the manufacturers-film makers?? Is what we have
asked for one...

And I am glad you see and I agree that the educational access and the
entertainment are a different issue--not that equal access to entertainment
should not be a right, but it is different and less urgent. 

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of DrV
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:57 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

A few more thoughts...

I agree that description is a skill that can be taught, but just as is seen 
in many professions, some people can go through the motions & get the job 
done in a sub-adequate or an adequate manner, while others just have a 
natural knack for certain things & take it to the next level & do an 
outstanding job.

We have all met teachers who are good, bad, or outstanding - this is often 
not just a matter of training or experience -> that comes from within.

You may have heard the joke: "What do you call the person who graduates at 
the bottom of their medical school class?" -> "You call them 'Doctor.'" 
There are many doctors that are "book smart" , who have published many 
research articles, or who can quote statistics of endless research studies, 
but when it comes to taking care of patients, they may not very good 
clinicians & some of the best clinicians in some areas may not have gone to 
the "best schools" or have been that "book smart". Research studies in 
medicine often don't reflect individual patient realities. When it comes to 
the practice of medicine, I do believe in "the art of medicine". Call it 
what you like, but some people intuitively do some things much better than 
others with the same level (or perhaps even more) of training or experience.

I admittedly don't know the whole history behind the audio-description. In 
the last few emails, apples & oranges are already being mixed.

When it comes to educational issues, then if videos are to be used as part 
of the district or classroom curriculum, then it should in fact be mandated 
that they be made available in an accessible format. As has been pointed out

there are different ways of achieving accessibility. Likewise, I feel it 
should be mandated (yes mandated) that any educational CD/DVD/web-based 
curriculums & even web-based school calendars (which our district kids are 
encouraged or required to look at as early as elementarily school) be 
accessible. If the school district or state dept of education has deemed a 
video or web-based teaching tool as being important for the education of 
students in that district or state, then they should be required to assure 
appropriate accessibility to blind students. There is a strong move towards 
web-based teaching & testing. Now is the time to be intervening & setting 
standards.

 As far as pleasure/recreation movies, etc go, that is a different issue. 
Unlike the money issue, I don't buy the position that adding 
audio-descriptions to a DVD would be "putting an undue burden on society" ->

companies already have tracks with subtitles in various languages, or 
optional overlaying director commentaries, or that are dubbed in various 
languages. It just doesn't seem that this would be hard or overwhelmingly 
burdensome to do.

 I suspect a comparable issue to audio-description would be that of close 
captioning for the deaf. I just googled I briefly look at an FCC webpage 
(www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/closedcaption.html). Here are the first 2 
paragraphs:

"Closed captioning allows persons with hearing disabilities to have access 
to television programming by displaying the audio portion of a television 
program as text on the television screen. Beginning in July 1993, the 
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) required all analog television 
receivers with screens 13 inches or larger sold or manufactured in the 
United States to contain built-in decoder circuitry to display closed 
captioning. Beginning July 1, 2002, the FCC also required that digital 
television (DTV) receivers include closed captioning display capability. "

"In 1996, Congress required video programming distributors (cable operators,

broadcasters, satellite distributors, and other multi-channel video 
programming distributors) to close caption their television programs. In 
1997, the FCC set a transition schedule requiring distributors to provide an

increasing amount of captioned programming, as summarized below."

I did not read the whole page, nor have I done any research into this, but 
one could make the argument that there is some sort of precedent. I don't 
know how the deaf community feels about government intervention in this 
area.

Based on what I know & what my kids are experiencing, I guess I would be in 
favor of "encouraging" audio-description, not necessarily mandating it. I 
can't think of a good reason to discourage audio-description.

Take care,

Eric




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 07:01
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>
> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things 
> did
> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in a
> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what the
> blind need.
>
> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the following
> first term grade slip for social studies:
> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>
> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with 
> accompanying
> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear indication
> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was 
> graded
> or a key component to curriculum.
>
> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was a
> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as has
> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair 
> color
> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does 
> audio
> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind people
> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things had
> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the 
> ground
> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual 
> description
> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>
> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They only 
> do
> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and 
> Juliet,
> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part of
> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>
> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could become
> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I 
> can
> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of 
> the
> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which they
> definitely want.
>
> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important for
> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get our
> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first 
> things
> first.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> Eric:
>
> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
> the law.
>
> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>
> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
> the blind.
>
> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
> print. (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>
> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
> screen
> really is an art.
> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
> it
> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
> obvious.
> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
> I know this gets debated.
> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
> enhance the experience if done well.
> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
> Best wishes,
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>miss
>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>> glasses
>> and
>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>> woman,
>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>> store
>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>> here to
>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>> motor
>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>> uses
>> his
>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>> a
>> car
>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>> hands
>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>> bike,
>> he
>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>> the
>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>> bike
>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>> trailer
>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>> thing.
>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>> the
>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>> there
>> is
>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>
>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>> something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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>>
>>
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>
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> et
>
>
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From burgawicki at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 15:26:40 2008
From: burgawicki at yahoo.com (Kathy B)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 07:26:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
References: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <736357.35043.qm@web45806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

LOL!!!




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:30:16 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

It is 12 degrees, gas is $1.60 a gallon and I have 199,995 miles on my van.
My neighbor has a scooter we can borrow. You are right on the way Michael!

Now where are those moderators I hired to keep us on task/message?

This has been a test of the emergency moderator system...

LOL



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Freholm
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:32 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
the car!
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

On my way! It was 15 for a high here today! 
Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
Be ready!

Good thing gas is cheap. 

Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie... 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Debby B
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??

Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Super! You build I'll supervise!
You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
keeps getting bigger and bigger!

Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I 
actually did help my parents build so know how.

LOL!
Barbara


      

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From lindashalm at aol.com  Sat Dec  6 17:05:57 2008
From: lindashalm at aol.com (lindashalm at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:05:57 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
In-Reply-To: <493a98b3.0917400a.1f3b.ffff95e1@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8CB25DC0AABB208-16D4-2D8@WEBMAIL-DC13.sysops.aol.com>

I don't post often here, but audio description is something I have started to look into, as far as becoming a describer myself.? It seems to me that having the description built into some dvd's & tapes, just opens up the movie to that many more people, so it could pay off for everyone.? I'm still? surprised at how many visually impaired people have no idea the descriptive service even exists.? Our family has been buying them for many years and it really does a great job of filling in the blanks, so much so that I learned things about "Apollo 13" that I never picked up after viewing it many times without dvs (and I'm fully sighted).? So many people give up on watching movies &?plays?when their sight fails.? It doesn't have to be!

A few theaters in NJ offer it for their plays at least 1 or 2 nights during the run.? I have been exploring becoming a describer for my local stage theater, just so my family can access it, and maybe to eventually get the word out how worthwhile the service can be.? Eventually, I may even get paid for it!?? ?It's harder than I thought it would be.? My son thought it would be easy for me, since I've been describing to him for a long time (Titanic was tough) but it is an art/talent to know when to "shut up" and therein lies my weakness.???all in all, we seek it out when possible.

Linda, NJ


-----Original Message-----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:22 am
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?



Dear Eric,
Yes I agree with your points and the subtleties of the differences,
nuances...and I know the doctor joke. Yes some people seem "born" to teach
or whatever, and some have to learn it and it is always unnatural and then
there are the In'betweeners...
What I meant is that it isn't an art that like true art is totally left up
to individual interpretation, and there can be standards, and it can be
learned like other forms of interpreting (it isn't exactly like interpreting
but similar)

I never meant to say we have not wanted descriptive video because that
(DVS)placed an undue burden itself--I meant the "burden" or responsibility
is something we look at carefully and do not assume society to just
take...on any access issue. Some say access no matter the cost or who
pays!...we say lets be reasonable and discover where is it right or best who
pays...and is the cost worth the benefit. Example...those "Braille for feet"
things at all newly constructed street corners. We did not want that in the
law. They do not really help, and may make it more difficult at a corner for
someone in a stroller or wheelchair, yet some pushed it into law---now those
$$$$ hundreds of thousands are being spent---for what??? They have been
viewed as necessary as the sloped corners for wheelchairs...when there is no
comparison or real similarity...we already could tell a corner just by the
slope!!! I meant LIKE with the money we have looked at the issue, and
debated amongst ourselves, from all sides...including if it is an undue
burden--does society pay or the manufacturers-film makers?? Is what we have
asked for one...

And I am glad you see and I agree that the educational access and the
entertainment are a different issue--not that equal access to entertainment
should not be a right, but it is different and less urgent. 

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of DrV
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:57 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

A few more thoughts...

I agree that description is a skill that can be taught, but just as is seen 
in many professions, some people can go through the motions & get the job 
done in a sub-adequate or an adequate manner, while others just have a 
natural knack for certain things & take it to the next level & do an 
outstanding job.

We have all met teachers who are good, bad, or outstanding - this is often 
not just a matter of training or experience -> that comes from within.

You may have heard the joke: "What do you call the person who graduates at 
the bottom of their medical school class?" -> "You call them 'Doctor.'" 
There are many doctors that are "book smart" , who have published many 
research articles, or who can quote statistics of endless research studies, 
but when it comes to taking care of patients, they may not very good 
clinicians & some of the best clinicians in some areas may not have gone to 
the "best schools" or have been that "book smart". Research studies in 
medicine often don't reflect individual patient realities. When it comes to 
the practice of medicine, I do believe in "the art of medicine". Call it 
what you like, but some people intuitively do some things much better than 
others with the same level (or perhaps even more) of training or experience.

I admittedly don't know the whole history behind the audio-description. In 
the last few emails, apples & oranges are already being mixed.

When it comes to educational issues, then if videos are to be used as part 
of the district or classroom curriculum, then it should in fact be mandated 
that they be made available in an accessible format. As has been pointed out

there are different ways of achieving accessibility. Likewise, I fee
l it 
should be mandated (yes mandated) that any educational CD/DVD/web-based 
curriculums & even web-based school calendars (which our district kids are 
encouraged or required to look at as early as elementarily school) be 
accessible. If the school district or state dept of education has deemed a 
video or web-based teaching tool as being important for the education of 
students in that district or state, then they should be required to assure 
appropriate accessibility to blind students. There is a strong move towards 
web-based teaching & testing. Now is the time to be intervening & setting 
standards.

 As far as pleasure/recreation movies, etc go, that is a different issue. 
Unlike the money issue, I don't buy the position that adding 
audio-descriptions to a DVD would be "putting an undue burden on society" ->

companies already have tracks with subtitles in various languages, or 
optional overlaying director commentaries, or that are dubbed in various 
languages. It just doesn't seem that this would be hard or overwhelmingly 
burdensome to do.

 I suspect a comparable issue to audio-description would be that of close 
captioning for the deaf. I just googled I briefly look at an FCC webpage 
(www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/closedcaption.html). Here are the first 2 
paragraphs:

"Closed captioning allows persons with hearing disabilities to have access 
to television programming by displaying the audio portion of a television 
program as text on the television screen. Beginning in July 1993, the 
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) required all analog television 
receivers with screens 13 inches or larger sold or manufactured in the 
United States to contain built-in decoder circuitry to display closed 
captioning. Beginning July 1, 2002, the FCC also required that digital 
television (DTV) receivers include closed captioning display capability. "

"In 1996, Congress required video programming distributors (cable operators,

broadcasters, satellite distributors, and other multi-channel video 
programmi
ng distributors) to close caption their television programs. In 
1997, the FCC set a transition schedule requiring distributors to provide an

increasing amount of captioned programming, as summarized below."

I did not read the whole page, nor have I done any research into this, but 
one could make the argument that there is some sort of precedent. I don't 
know how the deaf community feels about government intervention in this 
area.

Based on what I know & what my kids are experiencing, I guess I would be in 
favor of "encouraging" audio-description, not necessarily mandating it. I 
can't think of a good reason to discourage audio-description.

Take care,

Eric




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 07:01
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>
> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things 
> did
> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in a
> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what the
> blind need.
>
> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the following
> first term grade slip for social studies:
> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>
> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with 
> accompanying
> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear i
ndication
> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was 
> graded
> or a key component to curriculum.
>
> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was a
> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as has
> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair 
> color
> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does 
> audio
> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind people
> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things had
> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the 
> ground
> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual 
> description
> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>
> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They only 
> do
> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and 
> Juliet,
> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part of
> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>
> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could become
> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I 
> can
> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of 
> the
> grant) but it is 
a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which they
> definitely want.
>
> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important for
> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get our
> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first 
> things
> first.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> Eric:
>
> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
> the law.
>
> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>
> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
> the blind.
>
> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how 
to fit
> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
> print. (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>
> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
> screen
> really is an art.
> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
> it
> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
> obvious.
> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
> I know this gets debated.
> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
> enhance the experience if done well.
> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
> Best wishes,
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>miss
>> much, well everything
 as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>> glasses
>> and
>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>> woman,
>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>> store
>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>> here to
>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>> motor
>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>> uses
>> his
>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>> a
>> car
>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>> hands
>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>> bike,
>> he
>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>> the
>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>> bike
>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>> trailer
>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>> thing.
>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>> the
>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>> there
>> is
>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>
>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>> something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> I was thinking the
 same thing. I did not get it.
>>
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 17:12:46 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:12:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Determining what comes first and...
Message-ID: <493ab2cf.232d400a.1e21.09c1@mx.google.com>

Dear Eric and all,

 

I wanted to put a bit of perspective on the issues of access and civil
rights that we work for. It is hard to realize if you are not keeping up or
involved at the center all that goes on everyday. I have heard Dr. Maurer
say that people regularly call him about some issue and exclaim "There
oughta be a law!". he also said.well maybe there should be, maybe education
is the answer, maybe there already is a law but needs enforcement or
clarification.

 

Many times it has been rumored or perceived that we are resistant or against
something when we are really exploring the best way to address it or our
resources are being gobbled up addressing something bigger or we get
sidetracked fighting someone pushing for what we don't need.

 

Think of an IEP-in our case in sixth grade the primary thing was to get
Jordan access to reading-he needed full time Braille. Yet there were many
other things, we also wanted him to have access to his locker.  They wanted
access to the locker too, but the offer was to have his locker specially
grouped by the kids who had developmental disabilities or specially placed
by the front door and the lockers already had accommodations.we did not want
that.he did not need that.all he needed was not to have a combination
lock.we had to focus on first things first, while other things came up and
went on tangents we never dreamed.

 

While we are working for all kinds of things nationally new things and old
things come up. Last year a blind woman was denied treatment at a fertility
clinic because they said she shouldn't be a parent because she was blind.a
court agreed.well we couldn't just leave that be.In Hawaii the U.S. Navy
tried to take over and give to someone else a business/vending opportunity
that was supposed to (by law) be offered to the blind. Most parents do not
understand the Randolf Sheppard Act or the business enterprise system or why
it is important.we have over a 70% unemployment rate, some of your children
might very well need that small business opportunity to own and operate
their own stores.not everyone will go to college and some who do will want
to go into business.it is a critically important issue. We have a battle of
a thousand fronts.Where do DVD's and descriptive access fit into books on
time, Braille for the other 90% who don't get it, requirements for teacher
and O and M certification, teacher shortage, teacher training, access and
non-discrimination to public places, rights to be a blind parent, job
opportunities, quality blindness training in rehab.It is like the locker, we
always wanted it, Jordan needed it, but in the scheme of things it was not
at the top of the list, and when it was done we wanted it done in a way that
made sense (including we did not demand $$ for an entire new locker to be
built especially for him) and that fit his true needs.and then some big new
thing comes along that will affect hugely and has to be met while it is
forming.quiet cars and online classrooms.it takes brains, energy, $$, time,
uses up our key people's hours in the day. 

 

 

The NFB is fighting everyday, all over the nation, the world even, for
progress.the more involved you can be, with your voice, with your fact
finding, with your sweat and talents, with your $$$ or helping to raise $$$
from others (funding our movement-it must be done-or all our battles will
not be won).the more we can get done and get done faster. The future of the
NFB and its health-well it is your child's future at stake, and our children
are the NFB's future, we have a vested interest in each other.

 

 

Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc

 



From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 17:32:00 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:32:00 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Some more perspective...
Message-ID: <493ab71d.1b2a400a.1fd2.0958@mx.google.com>

I gave this address in Colorado recently, I put it in my newsletter in
Minnesota and sent to some but I don't think I put it on this list, I
apologize for the length to a list-"delete" is available for those who do
not wish the length.Maybe it will help give some more perspective to the
long and winding road..and how much we need everyone's efforts.

 

 

We are the Bridge

Freedom, for any group of people who have not had it, comes in stages; it
never comes fully at once.  Did you know that there were both free and
non-free blacks living in the 13 colonies and the first to come who were
free arrived in 1619-a year before the Pilgrims in 1620? Did you know that
thousands of free blacks helped to win the Revolutionary War? When we
prevailed in that war and won our freedom as a country, a document to
outline the rights of the citizenry and to declare the independence of our
new nation was crafted. The first draft of this declaration contained
provisions intended to eliminate the practice of slavery. But the colonies
in the south refused to join in the proposed new nation unless the clause
eliminating slavery was removed. And so Jefferson took it out. Of course, no
black people had been self-represented at that meeting.

 

 The words that Jefferson did write, "We hold these truths to be
self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their
creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness", these words gave enough vagueness for the
southern colonies to accept passage of the document and yet had enough
specific-ness to, in time,  apply to all people; male and female, black and
white, sighted, blind, where ever you might draw a marking line. The
declaration and the constitution initially were a bridge to freedom only for
some, but they carried the possibility to be a bridge for all, including the
blind. But people had to act in order to ensure the possibility was
realized; black people had to intend progress.

 

 It would be more than 100 years after the signing of the declaration before
slavery was outlawed. All during the hundred years there was incalculable
suffering by blacks but at the same time the acceptance of slavery gradually
began to dissolve. It began to dissolve because of the actions of black
people themselves-in 1787 the Free African Society was founded in
Philadelphia.  This was perhaps the first bridge to equal status for African
Americans.  In his book entitled Martin Luther King on Leadership,  Donald
T. Phillips writes, " that event (the forming of the Free African Society)
set off a chain reaction where fraternal lodges, schools, mutual aid and
improvement societies and various cultural organizations were also
established. Also founded were wide-ranging correspondence networks
-providing for the sharing of information and ideas-serving to link African
Americans geographically for the first time.and the various independent
African American churches came into existence. In the north, workers
organized demonstrations against segregation and discrimination policies." 

 

 What is commonly known as the civil rights movement did not truly begin in
the 1960's.it had stopped and started from the 1660's, and African Americans
had formed the first structural bridges to civil rights as early as the
1790's. Freedom comes in stages.

 

 Another 100 years and a step forward in the law; the 13th and 14th
amendments, citizenship and voting rights, came. And for a few decades after
the civil war blacks again joined every aspect of society and built their
own networks and proved their respectability and capabilities as free
citizens alongside whites, in every level of society. But it was too fast
for some and violent rebuttals and new legal constraints came- sweeping new
laws were passed to keep blacks in their so called place. And so on, and
back and forth it went, through to the civil rights movement of the 1960's.
>From the non-violent resistance of the 1960's nearly another 50 years have
passed and here we are today, having elected a black man to lead the entire
country. We have turned an important corner, and hope abounds, but there
remains evidence of the old deep prejudices and even the hatred and
violence-but we have evidence of hope even there because those who espouse
these ideas toward the new President or any black citizen are seen by the
majority in society as kooks and criminals. It is a new day; it was a long
time coming. Black people were told, and they themselves believed, even
until last Monday, that they would likely never get there. And they never
would have if they had not constructed their own bridges. It means, other
minorities who have been oppressed can get there too. It means what we all
know, blacks were always first class citizens; they just were not treated
that way. Blind people too, have always been first class; society has just
not recognized it yet.

 

There was a methodology that I think you recognize. Get as many of us as
possible organized for collective action. Get laws passed or struck down.
Educate the public and ourselves. Don't allow others to speak for us.
Network. Protest. Form Alliances. Take the long view. Experience and meet
resistance. Do it again. Stick together in unity of purpose. Sacrifice for a
purpose for the greater good.  Do not wait for freedom to come on its own.
And above all else do not give up, keep trying, keep telling, keep acting
out the truth.  And build your own bridges.

 

 Bridges enable us to get across the something that divides or separates us
from where we want to be or where we need to be. I often think of the NFB,
made up of all its individuals, affiliates, chapters and divisions as a
bridge. We are the bridge to somewhere-for blind people. We are at the
forefront of all the progress that is made for the blind. We have been the
force behind that progress. We are, and have been, the bridge that gets
people across from isolation and dependency, discrimination and lack of
opportunity, oppression and yes occasionally violence--to integration on
terms of equality. We bridge blind people across the divide, and we also are
the ones who bridge society across. The divide we must get them across is
the divide of myth, misunderstanding and lies. 

 

 In gaining freedom, you have to build your own bridge across the divide.
You must build expansive bridges such as laws and collective action that
will cause sweeping progress to bring the whole across. Also, individuals
must be built up to act as bridges to bring other individuals across. 

 

We have similarities with the American black experience, but also some
unique challenges. For blind people the road to freedom has been longer than
400 years.  Oppression, marginalization, misunderstanding, myths, violence,
forced or unfair labor practices and belief of inferiority have occurred for
the blind in every culture. There have been small bands of organized blind
people and singular instances where blind people broke through towards
freedom before us and they too were met with rebuttal. Many have not hated
us but have strangled us with protection, kindness, dependency and
isolation. We are a far smaller minority than blacks. We are not able to get
into advertising ads and TV shows and movies and professions in the same
masses, not even close. 

 

We have one unique challenge and difference from the American black
experience that I view as particularly important to think about. You see,
black children were almost always raised by black parents and for a long
time predominately educated by black educators. This meant, for the future,
and the present, there was someone raising the child who KNEW the truth
about what it meant to be black. There was someone there to show and tell
the child-all this disrespect and all these ideas are lies and are WRONG and
TOGETHER we will find a way to resist and overcome them.  The importance of
this can not be overstated, it is a fundamental difference we have had.
Blind children are predominately not raised or educated by other blind
people. Usually, there has been no one there to show or tell that the
prejudices were indeed prejudices and wrong and to say we are in this
together. 

 

In just a little under 7 decades the National Federation of the Blind has
made simply astonishing advances, especially when you consider the length
and breadth of our divide and the smallness of our numbers. Even so it has
come in stages. In the beginning of the NFB, children and parents were not
the primary focus. There were more immediate concerns of daily hunger,
survival and the basics of human dignity for the adult blind population. If
you've read your NFB history you know of which I speak. 

 

In the first two decades of the NFB, blind children were overall receiving a
fairly decent education, most learned Braille- and they were growing up with
other blind people around them- but they had to leave their families to get
this. But when they graduated with their educations they had no place to go.
So security and jobs obviously needed to be an early focus. Even the right
to organize at all had to take up many of our early energies. In the next
two decades, while the NFB was fighting for fundamental civil rights, and
meeting the rebuttal of the established agencies for the blind, we also
gained opportunity in higher education and revolutionized rehabilitation
training and established even more employment opportunities. But all during
this time a significant thing was happening. Blind children, en masse, were
leaving the residential schools and growing up in their own homes and
communities. While this was a desirable thing. it created a fundamental
shift and a new need. No longer were blind children surrounded and growing
up with other blind children. Many in fact began to grow up without knowing
any other blind person at all. Parents were now raising their child and
overseeing their educations.  And while some parents had normal expectations
many did not know they could expect normal things.Additionally this mass
exodus from the blind schools created an immediate need for many more
teachers. And coinciding-as the rehab agencies were resisting or ignoring
us, so did the newly forming teacher colleges. Teachers trained to fill
these newly needed positions were trained with sight biased philosophies-and
quickly the near demise of Braille, multiplication of sight saving, and an
explosion of low vision focus was about to occur.  This was the atmosphere
as we entered the 1980's. 

 

Then, 25 years ago, on July 2, 1983, something revolutionary, something
historically significant, and unique occurred. The National Organization of
Parents of Blind Children was formed. To paraphrase Barbara Cheadle (the
dedicated and formative president of the NOPBC for 23 years), Never before
had a national organization of parents chosen to be guided,  and mentored
by, and act in true collegial partnership with--an adult organization of the
same disability-for the same purpose: participation on terms of equality.
Under Dr. Jernigan's leadership and vision-a  solemn commitment to the
future of the blind was made. He charged us all to think of blind children
as our own spiritual children and he directed that the NFB would direct its
force, power, wisdom, resources and treasury to making the NOPBC succeed and
flourish.

 

 

The primary focus for the NOPBC in the 1980's was canes and mobility.  In
the late 1970's Doris Willouby and Dr. Fred Schroeder had each separately
and with out knowing the other had done it, started giving canes to young
elementary aged children. They didn't wait for years of federal dollars and
research they did what common sense told them and they were right. In the
1980's they came to the NOPBC with their ideas and then came Joe Cutter, and
we started a revolution for blind children's mobility. In less than one
decade we created an explosion of young children-even toddlers-using canes
all over the country. Children's canes began to be manufactured for the
first time. And the rehab agencies and established professional agencies
rebutted; claiming we were irresponsible and endangering the children. But a
wonderful thing was happening, once the children got a cane in their hand
they would not give it up. Once they had tasted freedom they would not go
back.

 

Also in the first decade we began to establish and distribute literature
especially about raising and educating blind children, and our magazine
Future Reflections was first created and assembled on the dining room table
and floor of the Cheadle's home.  We reached out to parents and gave
educational seminars, in 1986, 22 states had local seminars for parents and
in 1987 the first workshop on IEP's was held at national convention.

 

By the 1990's the use of and instruction in Braille had dropped to a
shockingly low 10% of the blind student population. Moreover many teachers
did not even know Braille, and if it was a  requirement to get a teaching
certificate  it was not a serious requirement. Braille became our focus in
the nineties as canes had been in the 1980's. But Braille was not as simple
as canes and mobility. You can not just place Braille in a child's hand and
off they go. Working in partnership the NFB and NOPBC fought to get Braille
laws in many states. Then in 1995, more than 1,500 letters were sent in a
letter writing campaign to Congress in support of Braille literacy. In 1997
we got it in to federal law and we got it for children not based on amount
of vision but based on reading efficiency and function. Some of the agencies
and established professionals were not happy and in order to get them to
agree to getting the Braille law passed we had to put in a provision that
essentially says a child gets Braille UNLESS they don't need it. It is a
loophole you can drive a dump truck through.  Remember the broadness of the
Declaration of Independence took time.  Freedom comes in stages. 

 

By the year 2000, 26 states had a parent division. We had also long
established resources for parents of blind children with additional
disabilities. The advent of technology allowed parents to network day and
night without geographic limitations; they began to network with each other
and with blind adults and teachers on our list serv. In 2002, 449 students
read 637,993 pages in the Braille Readers Are Leaders contest, NFB members
and NAPUB worked with us, acting as judges verifying all those pages and
getting out awards. In 2003 the Braille Flea market was established, and NFB
leader Peggy Chong has taken the initiative to partner with us and
coordinate this wonderful place where blind children can browse the shelves
for books to their heart's delight. I would like every member to think about
donating a brand new Braille book to the flea market this year. Well, I
don't want you to just think about it, I want you to do it. I don't know if
you have ever dared to go in to our flea market, but the enthusiasm is
awesome, it is like the rush at the front door of  WalMart or BestBuy the
morning after Thanksgiving.every man for himself.  We established our Parent
Leadership program and we have more parent leaders than ever before who also
have gotten to know each other well and are able to easily network and
support each other through our new POBC presidents list. We are truly
becoming a cohesive acting national force. In addition parents of grown
children have now expressed a desire to form an Alumni Group, led by Marty
Greiser. 

 

These days my in-box and phones are filled daily with several stories that
make you want to scream and cry and rip your hair out. Yes, every day,
several NEW stories. Teachers from the old school are still there, we don't
have enough teachers, children are isolated from blind peers and role
models, parents don't know anything about blindness. Parents must become
practical lawyers to get their child a free and appropriate education.
School budgets are stretched and technologies are expensive. With the
internet, many new parents are desperately searching looking for hope and
answers. The NOPBC got an Imagination Fund grant to build a revolutionary
new web site that we intend will revolutionize our ability to reach new
families and empower them with all the resources we have. We want to double
the number of Braille readers and expand our Braille programs-so we have to
double at least the number of teachers and we want them to be without bias.
Joanne Wilson and Affiliate Action got excited with me and we are creating a
new teacher recruitment program which Dr. Maurer has enthusiastically
approved-look to be asked to become a part of this soon. We are planning an
Educational Symposium with the Jernigan Institute to build alliances and
identify issues we can solve together and to bring all the players to our
table sometime next year. Another Youth Slam from the Jernigan Institute
will occur. I want to have a blind Continental Congress for youth-or a blind
youth Model United Nations Assembly-I keep bugging Mark Riccobono (not that
he doesn't like the idea)- I encourage you to email him at
Mriccobono at nfb.org and tell him you like the idea and you are willing to
help find the money for it!  We are partnering with the new teacher division
to develop a new IEP and Special Ed. Law video. We have just started a new
blog site for teens, thanks in part to Rosy Carranza. And of course the NFB
Braille Initiative and the promotion of the coin has begun. Go to
www.braille.org <http://www.braille.org/>  and get involved!

 

 When they graduate our kids need a place to go, and many will need more
training in blindness skills, so our interests also lie in higher education,
employment and rehabilitation. We are reaching out to new partners who are
believers outside the NFB. Within we are finding new ways to partner with
the teacher, rehab and student divisions. Eventually, we intend to build
strong partner and mentor-ships with every division. If you are a division
leader-oh of say for example the merchants division, or the lawyers
division, or ah.the computer science division-let's think about what we can
do for blind kids together. We are YOUR future, and you are ours-it is that
simple and profound. Parents and children have a vested interest in ensuring
the strength and success of the NFB, and you have a vested interest in
ensuring their strength and success. There are tens of thousands of students
and adults seeking assistance to reach their full potential every day. The
vast majority are met with a limiting containment wall rather than a bridge
to success.  They are in need of a bridge or they will not get to where they
are capable of being. We are at a crucial time I believe, the fight of our
lives for cementing our movement, I believe is happening right now.  NAC is
back? Blind people can not be parents? The movie Blindness? People saw it as
no big deal? Freedom comes in painful stages.

 

Have you ever been across the vast expansion bridge in San Francisco? It is
a wonder of engineering achievement, it works, it withstands, and it is a
beautiful thing. I think we are like that. Together the NFB and the NOPBC
are like this huge expansion bridge from the island of isolation to the
mainland of freedom. We are a wonder of engineering achievement, we work, we
withstand and we are a beautiful thing: but we need to continue to expand.
Individually we all need to act as bridges. Dr. Martin Luther King said,
"People are often led to great causes and often become committed to great
ideas through persons who personify those ideas. They have to find the
embodiment of the idea in flesh and blood in order to commit themselves to
it." Build a bridge. Mentor a child or young adult or a parent or someone
newly blind. Get involved. Be a bridge. We will get to the other side. Yes,
we can.

 

 

Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc

 



From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 18:18:39 2008
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:18:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
References: <493a9366.1e3e400a.1f41.ffffcb29@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <55905.17641.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Carlton and Carrie,

My husband is director of libraries and AR comes under his "umbrella". I talked to him about it and he is going to address this when he meets with the teachers that use AR and the librarians for when they do readings for classes. 

I have always talked to classroom teachers about describing pictures in books that they read aloud to their studies. I don't have any Braille students of the AR age right now, but I used to describe any pictures in books since I saw them daily.

Your comments got me thinking that there are probably kids with other disabilities that would benefit from this. Also, I may begin adding the description of pictures for AR books to modifications required for my kids with low vision. A parent volunteer or paraprofessional could do this. I will have to think it through and work it out, but I 'can do what I can do".

Thanks to all of you who bring up the things that you as parents encounter. It helps us TVIs do a better job. Last week I combined all the storage ideas and resources for audio descriptive DVDs, etc., and made it a part of my newsletter (giving the list credit, of course!).

Colleen in TX




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 8:59:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

Dear Carlton,
I am so glad you have pointed this out. I had not heard this about the AR
specifically before. We are taking a close look at online and computer based
tests and gathering information on a national level. I am forwarding your
concerns on. Thank you for bringing it up. If anyone has any troubled
experience with online tests or experience in attempting to contact or work
with a testing company--or you have experience with something working
well... please send me your experience asap.

And thanks for the nice words for me Carlton...smile. 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:15 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

Hi all,

Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
Accelerated Reader (AR) program.

My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
And Interpreting Pictures program.


We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
would have improved by now.



This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.



Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?



Take care all!!



Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bldhnds52%40yahoo.com


From holmanj at charter.net  Sat Dec  6 20:42:48 2008
From: holmanj at charter.net (Jena)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:42:48 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
References: <493a9366.1e3e400a.1f41.ffffcb29@mx.google.com>
	<55905.17641.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <76158815902B40DF83D0122D1A0382B3@JenaScott>

This is very interesting to me....My youngest son is legally blind but we do think he can see colors and certain lights. He has many other disabilities too and being descriptive about pictures in a book is a great idea I also have a older son with many disabilities he can see but does not understand what he sees so maybe this would benefit him too we are not sure how much he understands. Next question is how to get the teacher and paras at school to do this?
Thanks,
Jena
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Colleen Davis 
  To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) 
  Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??


  Carlton and Carrie,

  My husband is director of libraries and AR comes under his "umbrella". I talked to him about it and he is going to address this when he meets with the teachers that use AR and the librarians for when they do readings for classes. 

  I have always talked to classroom teachers about describing pictures in books that they read aloud to their studies. I don't have any Braille students of the AR age right now, but I used to describe any pictures in books since I saw them daily.

  Your comments got me thinking that there are probably kids with other disabilities that would benefit from this. Also, I may begin adding the description of pictures for AR books to modifications required for my kids with low vision. A parent volunteer or paraprofessional could do this. I will have to think it through and work it out, but I 'can do what I can do".

  Thanks to all of you who bring up the things that you as parents encounter. It helps us TVIs do a better job. Last week I combined all the storage ideas and resources for audio descriptive DVDs, etc., and made it a part of my newsletter (giving the list credit, of course!).

  Colleen in TX




  ________________________________
  From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
  To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
  Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 8:59:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

  Dear Carlton,
  I am so glad you have pointed this out. I had not heard this about the AR
  specifically before. We are taking a close look at online and computer based
  tests and gathering information on a national level. I am forwarding your
  concerns on. Thank you for bringing it up. If anyone has any troubled
  experience with online tests or experience in attempting to contact or work
  with a testing company--or you have experience with something working
  well... please send me your experience asap.

  And thanks for the nice words for me Carlton...smile. 

  Carrie Gilmer, President
  National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
  A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
  NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
  Home Phone: 763-784-8590
  carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
  www.nfb.org/nopbc
  -----Original Message-----
  From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
  Behalf Of Carlton Anne Cook Walker
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:15 PM
  To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
  Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

  Hi all,

  Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
  need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
  Accelerated Reader (AR) program.

  My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
  at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
  on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
  the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
  this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
  And Interpreting Pictures program.


  We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
  would have improved by now.



  This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
  Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
  Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
  they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
  REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
  me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.



  Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?



  Take care all!!



  Carlton

  -- 
  Carlton Anne Cook Walker
  213 North First Street
  McConnellsburg, PA    17233
  Voice: 717-485-3383

  _______________________________________________
  blindkid mailing list
  blindkid at nfbnet.org
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
  blindkid:
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
  ail.com


  _______________________________________________
  blindkid mailing list
  blindkid at nfbnet.org
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bldhnds52%40yahoo.com
  _______________________________________________
  blindkid mailing list
  blindkid at nfbnet.org
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/holmanj%40charter.net


From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 22:08:24 2008
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:08:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
References: <493a9366.1e3e400a.1f41.ffffcb29@mx.google.com>
	<55905.17641.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<76158815902B40DF83D0122D1A0382B3@JenaScott>
Message-ID: <796104.17457.qm@web65412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Hi, Jena,

My initial response is "Just ask."  I can almost hear the howls from here, but I think that if you talk to his teachers, you may find that they either already do some description or that they will be happy to do it.

When I go into early childhood, pre-K, and kinder classes, I often see teachers pointing out pictures and asking the kids what they see and what they can infer from the picture. Example: "Look at the little boy's face. Does he look happy? How do you know?". etc. While that is not full description, it is an instructional practice that benefits everyone in the class, not just the kids who have disabilities.

Talk to the teachers, explain the need for description, and see what they say. Maybe you or a friend could volunteer to read a story to the class and demonstrate. If that doesn't help, enlist the help of your child's TVI, reading specialist, or librarian. No luck? Ratchet it up. Speak to your child's principal, then to the SpEd director. Work the chain and then have it written into the ARD/IEP documents as a required modification.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. Please feel free to contact me off-list if I can be of any further help.
Thanks and have a great weekend.
Colleen




________________________________
From: Jena <holmanj at charter.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 2:42:48 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

This is very interesting to me....My youngest son is legally blind but we do think he can see colors and certain lights. He has many other disabilities too and being descriptive about pictures in a book is a great idea I also have a older son with many disabilities he can see but does not understand what he sees so maybe this would benefit him too we are not sure how much he understands. Next question is how to get the teacher and paras at school to do this?
Thanks,
Jena
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Colleen Davis 
  To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) 
  Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??


  Carlton and Carrie,

  My husband is director of libraries and AR comes under his "umbrella". I talked to him about it and he is going to address this when he meets with the teachers that use AR and the librarians for when they do readings for classes. 

  I have always talked to classroom teachers about describing pictures in books that they read aloud to their studies. I don't have any Braille students of the AR age right now, but I used to describe any pictures in books since I saw them daily.

  Your comments got me thinking that there are probably kids with other disabilities that would benefit from this. Also, I may begin adding the description of pictures for AR books to modifications required for my kids with low vision. A parent volunteer or paraprofessional could do this. I will have to think it through and work it out, but I 'can do what I can do".

  Thanks to all of you who bring up the things that you as parents encounter. It helps us TVIs do a better job. Last week I combined all the storage ideas and resources for audio descriptive DVDs, etc., and made it a part of my newsletter (giving the list credit, of course!).

  Colleen in TX




  ________________________________
  From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
  To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
  Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 8:59:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

  Dear Carlton,
  I am so glad you have pointed this out. I had not heard this about the AR
  specifically before. We are taking a close look at online and computer based
  tests and gathering information on a national level. I am forwarding your
  concerns on. Thank you for bringing it up. If anyone has any troubled
  experience with online tests or experience in attempting to contact or work
  with a testing company--or you have experience with something working
  well... please send me your experience asap.

  And thanks for the nice words for me Carlton...smile. 

  Carrie Gilmer, President
  National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
  A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
  NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
  Home Phone: 763-784-8590
  carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
  www.nfb.org/nopbc

From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 22:10:34 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:10:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
In-Reply-To: <55905.17641.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493af865.062a400a.1d91.66b5@mx.google.com>

Awesome Colleen--I am so thankful for you and your husband; professionals
who understand the value of collegial and equal partnership with
knowledgeable parents and have normal expectations for students!
We love ya! And will do anything to raise you up and empower you in any way
we can!
Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing,
Best,

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Colleen Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:19 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

Carlton and Carrie,

My husband is director of libraries and AR comes under his "umbrella". I
talked to him about it and he is going to address this when he meets with
the teachers that use AR and the librarians for when they do readings for
classes. 

I have always talked to classroom teachers about describing pictures in
books that they read aloud to their studies. I don't have any Braille
students of the AR age right now, but I used to describe any pictures in
books since I saw them daily.

Your comments got me thinking that there are probably kids with other
disabilities that would benefit from this. Also, I may begin adding the
description of pictures for AR books to modifications required for my kids
with low vision. A parent volunteer or paraprofessional could do this. I
will have to think it through and work it out, but I 'can do what I can do".

Thanks to all of you who bring up the things that you as parents encounter.
It helps us TVIs do a better job. Last week I combined all the storage ideas
and resources for audio descriptive DVDs, etc., and made it a part of my
newsletter (giving the list credit, of course!).

Colleen in TX




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 8:59:34 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

Dear Carlton,
I am so glad you have pointed this out. I had not heard this about the AR
specifically before. We are taking a close look at online and computer based
tests and gathering information on a national level. I am forwarding your
concerns on. Thank you for bringing it up. If anyone has any troubled
experience with online tests or experience in attempting to contact or work
with a testing company--or you have experience with something working
well... please send me your experience asap.

And thanks for the nice words for me Carlton...smile. 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:15 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

Hi all,

Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
Accelerated Reader (AR) program.

My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
And Interpreting Pictures program.


We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
would have improved by now.



This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.



Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?



Take care all!!



Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com


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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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com
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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ail.com




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 22:13:45 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:13:45 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
In-Reply-To: <76158815902B40DF83D0122D1A0382B3@JenaScott>
Message-ID: <493af91f.1b17400a.1f1b.5c7f@mx.google.com>

Dear Jena,
You can start by showing them Colleen's response. Then I am sure Rene H. can
pipe in...Rene? Maybe Carol C. too...
Just talk with them about the value of it, they, like you, it just probably
never occurred to them. Usually classroom teachers and paras want to do the
right thing or more but do not know what more or else to do...

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Jena
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

This is very interesting to me....My youngest son is legally blind but we do
think he can see colors and certain lights. He has many other disabilities
too and being descriptive about pictures in a book is a great idea I also
have a older son with many disabilities he can see but does not understand
what he sees so maybe this would benefit him too we are not sure how much he
understands. Next question is how to get the teacher and paras at school to
do this?
Thanks,
Jena
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Colleen Davis 
  To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) 
  Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??


  Carlton and Carrie,

  My husband is director of libraries and AR comes under his "umbrella". I
talked to him about it and he is going to address this when he meets with
the teachers that use AR and the librarians for when they do readings for
classes. 

  I have always talked to classroom teachers about describing pictures in
books that they read aloud to their studies. I don't have any Braille
students of the AR age right now, but I used to describe any pictures in
books since I saw them daily.

  Your comments got me thinking that there are probably kids with other
disabilities that would benefit from this. Also, I may begin adding the
description of pictures for AR books to modifications required for my kids
with low vision. A parent volunteer or paraprofessional could do this. I
will have to think it through and work it out, but I 'can do what I can do".

  Thanks to all of you who bring up the things that you as parents
encounter. It helps us TVIs do a better job. Last week I combined all the
storage ideas and resources for audio descriptive DVDs, etc., and made it a
part of my newsletter (giving the list credit, of course!).

  Colleen in TX




  ________________________________
  From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
  To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
  Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 8:59:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

  Dear Carlton,
  I am so glad you have pointed this out. I had not heard this about the AR
  specifically before. We are taking a close look at online and computer
based
  tests and gathering information on a national level. I am forwarding your
  concerns on. Thank you for bringing it up. If anyone has any troubled
  experience with online tests or experience in attempting to contact or
work
  with a testing company--or you have experience with something working
  well... please send me your experience asap.

  And thanks for the nice words for me Carlton...smile. 

  Carrie Gilmer, President
  National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
  A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
  NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
  Home Phone: 763-784-8590
  carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
  www.nfb.org/nopbc
  -----Original Message-----
  From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
  Behalf Of Carlton Anne Cook Walker
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:15 PM
  To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
  Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??

  Hi all,

  Carrie's post got me thinking (as her wonderful posts always do).  The
  need for descriptions in picture books is evident in the tests of the
  Accelerated Reader (AR) program.

  My second grader, Anna, just took an AR test this afternoon on a book
  at the second grade reading level.  All but one of the five questions
  on the test had to do with the PICTURES in the book.  Now, granted,
  the book is a Caldecott Award winner and the pictures are nice, but
  this is an Accelerated READER program, not an Accelerated Looking At
  And Interpreting Pictures program.


  We has this same problem with kindergarten AR tests -- I had hoped it
  would have improved by now.



  This is a book I brailled myself, it isn't available from NBP or
  Seedlings (which might have had picture descriptions).  Even though
  Anna has some vision, she could not interpret most of the pictures --
  they were somewhat abstract and did not have terrific contrast.  I'm
  REALLY glad I described the pictures for her as she read the book to
  me -- otherwise, she would have received a poor score on the quiz.



  Golly, when does it get easier (smile)?



  Take care all!!



  Carlton

  -- 
  Carlton Anne Cook Walker
  213 North First Street
  McConnellsburg, PA    17233
  Voice: 717-485-3383

  _______________________________________________
  blindkid mailing list
  blindkid at nfbnet.org
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
  blindkid:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
  ail.com


  _______________________________________________
  blindkid mailing list
  blindkid at nfbnet.org
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bldhnds52%40yahoo.
com
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  blindkid at nfbnet.org
  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/holmanj%40charter.
net
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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ail.com




From carol_castellano at verizon.net  Sat Dec  6 23:09:06 2008
From: carol_castellano at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 18:09:06 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] emergency preparedness
Message-ID: <mailman.29.1593446440.14746.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>

Hi Everyone,

Maria Garcia, our resident EMT expert, reviewed the following 
information and says it contains good stuff.  I'm leaving in the 
explanatory email along with the link fyi.

Carol

>
>>Hi Carol,
>>Our son Eric is a paramedic, manager of an EMS in New Hampshire and 
>>a teacher of certain courses to EMT's, paramedics etc.
>>
>>His experiences have brought him to the conclusion that parents and 
>>children might be better served if they had an Emergency Treatment 
>>Plan prepared for their child in case an ambulance was required.
>>
>>He has developed this and has not received (nor will he ever 
>>receive) any payment for this in any way.
>>
>>He's just put it out there so that if parents of kids with special 
>>health needs find it useful they will know how to prepare an 
>>ETP.  If you don't think it's helpful, just delete. You are welcome 
>>to send him comments as to how it might be improved and you are 
>>welcome to share it with any organization or group you wish.    Sandy
>>
>>Emergency Treatment Plans for Kids with Special or Chronic Health Issues
>>Be Better Prepared for Medical Emergencies
>>http://knol.google.com/k/eric-jaeger/emergency-treatment-plans-for-kids-with/1z72kzsex5rnp/2 
>>#
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>PS Eric is the parent of a child with special lneeds.
>>(Also is EMS won best in the state this year.)
>>


From attorneywalker at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 01:28:05 2008
From: attorneywalker at gmail.com (Carlton Anne Cook Walker)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:28:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
Message-ID: <aa85e5850812061728q60278b7bkbc22f7eb7da909a9@mail.gmail.com>

Amy,

The most recent one was "In a Small Pond," by Denise Fleming.  I don't
believe it is part of a series, though.


I was just so surprised when Anna took the test and the questions
centered on the pictures, not the text.  I have been working VERY hard
to get Anna to be more independent in her reading -- thus, I don't
like to hover as she reads a book.  I guess I still will need to do so
so long as the pictures abound.


Additionally, I remember that the Isabelle Gaines One Hundred Acre
Woods books (there are a fair numer of books in this series) had
several tests with questions relating to the pictures -- not the text.



Again, my complaint is: Accelerated READER tests should test what the
child READS.  At least, that's what makes sense to me . . .




Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383



From attorneywalker at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 01:38:51 2008
From: attorneywalker at gmail.com (Carlton Anne Cook Walker)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:38:51 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
Message-ID: <aa85e5850812061738x3d0b6cd2u2cb2b4b46e84cd28@mail.gmail.com>

Kathy,

I know that you're right, I'm just frustrated about it all.


This world is so very vision-centric, and it makes me mad.  Since when
did "reading" become the act of interpreting pictures?


Now, I understand that pictures are an excellent way to teach children
concepts as they are learning to read -- so long as those pictures are
accessible.  But, the pictures are only a TOOL -- they are NOT reading
itself.



Even written picture descriptions are of only limited value, in my
opinion.  For an emerging reader, the parentheses sign before the
description can be misinterpreted as a "g" or unknown symbol for a
reader of uncontracted braille and possibly as "were" or "go" (if
tracking and placement within the cell are problems).  Additionally,
many picture descriptions are written in language that is above the
level of the reader.  This is just so very frustrating for the
emergent reader -- not fun, like reading should be.



I'm sorry, I'll get off my soapbox.  This prevalence of testing on
picture interpretations in READING classes is just so nonsensical to
me.  To me, it's another example of how dependent the sighted are upon
their sight and their lack of inclination to make education inclusive
for students who may not be able to interpret pictures visually.





Carlton


-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383



From blindchildren at verizon.net  Sun Dec  7 02:32:52 2008
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 21:32:52 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
In-Reply-To: <4937f3ef.1b2a400a.1fd5.0df3@mx.google.com>
References: <49374b83.8c53f10a.3336.fffffccfSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
	<4937f3ef.1b2a400a.1fd5.0df3@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.30.1593446440.14746.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>

Yeah, I got a real kick out of it.  The person who sent it to me says 
it came from ONCE, the organization of the blind in Spain, but I'm 
not sure that makes sense, as the words on the jacket are in 
English.  It would have to be Nacido Ser Ciego, wouldn't it!?!  Also, 
I don't think they call their game Lotto.  Don't think it's from NJ.

CC



At 10:14 AM 12/4/2008, you wrote:
>Oh Carol this is great--this is maybe the best use of a blind person in a
>commercial I have seen...It shows such a typical reaction of the store clerk
>being directed back to the blind person as the customer--and how many times
>have you been with your older kid and someone tries to look at you for a
>visual silent communicate? And the Harley store guy just accepts it
>And goes on...I like it that the guy shows that blind people have the same
>desires as anyone and can "find a way"...of course it isn't perfect, but it
>seems realistic and humorous in a good way. We just need to keep getting us
>out there in the biggest normal variety way we can. Thanks for sharing! Is
>that the New Jersey LOTTO?
>
>Did you catch that his jacket said "Born to be Blind"? For convention from
>BLIND, Inc., we made up whole lyrics for the song melody Born to be Wild
>into Born to be Blind and sang it several years--it was a staff, student,
>and one of my sons' favorites--smile.
>
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Carol Castellano
>Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:53 PM
>To: blindkid at nfbnet.org; KAYLA8424 at aol.com; donnaoandm at hotmail.com;
>hmom4 at aol.com; SpecialK38 at aol.com; LindaSHalm at aol.com; WITMAGZINE at aol.com;
>4pecora at optonline.net; tomferry81 at hotmail.com; pattyt1 at optonline.net;
>robbieschuler3 at yahoo.com; William.Cucco at opd.state.nj.us
>Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>Looking for the perfect holiday gift for that blind person in your
>life???  Check out this idea!
>Carol
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From aruell at nbp.org  Sun Dec  7 02:34:47 2008
From: aruell at nbp.org (Amy Ruell)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:34:47 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5850812061728q60278b7bkbc22f7eb7da909a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5642FF74DDED48D9A725A63FFDB92498@amy3a94b6b753e>

Hi Carlton,
So sorry! By series, I meant the series of AR books.
Don't know that NBP can do anything to address this, but I'm going to pass
this on.

Thanks.

Amy


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:28 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??


Amy,

The most recent one was "In a Small Pond," by Denise Fleming.  I don't
believe it is part of a series, though.


I was just so surprised when Anna took the test and the questions
centered on the pictures, not the text.  I have been working VERY hard
to get Anna to be more independent in her reading -- thus, I don't
like to hover as she reads a book.  I guess I still will need to do so
so long as the pictures abound.


Additionally, I remember that the Isabelle Gaines One Hundred Acre
Woods books (there are a fair numer of books in this series) had
several tests with questions relating to the pictures -- not the text.



Again, my complaint is: Accelerated READER tests should test what the
child READS.  At least, that's what makes sense to me . . .




Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/aruell%40nbp.org




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Sun Dec  7 03:41:54 2008
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 22:41:54 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
References: <E8719E5EE93C41CCBFE03DFD860B7560@WHOZIT>
	<49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.31.1593446440.14746.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>

Um, who me?  It's snowing here--I'm busy fantasizing about Florida!
Carol

At 09:30 AM 12/5/2008, you wrote:
>It is 12 degrees, gas is $1.60 a gallon and I have 199,995 miles on my van.
>My neighbor has a scooter we can borrow. You are right on the way Michael!
>
>Now where are those moderators I hired to keep us on task/message?
>
>This has been a test of the emergency moderator system...
>
>LOL
>
>
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Michael Freholm
>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:32 PM
>To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
>I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
>the car!
>Michael
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
>To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>On my way! It was 15 for a high here today!
>Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
>Be ready!
>
>Good thing gas is cheap.
>
>Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie...
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Debby B
>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
>To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??
>
>  Debby
>bwbddl at yahoo.com
>www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>Super! You build I'll supervise!
>You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
>keeps getting bigger and bigger!
>
>Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
>Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
>To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I
>actually did help my parents build so know how.
>
>LOL!
>Barbara
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>ail.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>blindkid at nfbnet.org
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 05:49:22 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:49:22 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
References: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <86084DDE76C9477BABAC9F5DAA41CB78@owner96190708e>

Carie:

I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel 
that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more 
stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's 
thinking.

You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally 
mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After 
all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important 
than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly 
acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency 
information be voiced.

And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --  
one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case 
in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described 
"nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But 
who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision 
as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that 
described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television" 
would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is 
largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative 
Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to 
fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind 
persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces 
and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and 
nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as 
valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a 
judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the 
closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of 
closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO). 
Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted 
persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it 
all wrong!".

Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily 
susceptible of being a legal requirement!

If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a 
clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be 
accommodated within the framework of the constitution.

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


Dear Mike, and Eric,

I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things 
did
not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in 
a
way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what 
the
blind need.

That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the 
following
first term grade slip for social studies:
A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.

All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with 
accompanying
assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear 
indication
of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was 
graded
or a key component to curriculum.

I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was 
a
huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as 
has
been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair 
color
or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does 
audio
description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind 
people
in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things 
had
to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the 
ground
up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual 
description
or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.

When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They 
only do
educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and 
Juliet,
The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part 
of
Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
film. Including testing on the analysis.

Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could 
become
available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I 
can
tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of 
the
grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which 
they
definitely want.

We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important 
for
educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get 
our
voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first 
things
first.


Sincerely,

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider

Eric:

If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
the law.

That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
(Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
they cannot present their output to the deaf?)

In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
the blind.

What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
print. (grin)

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
imagined my boys on that Harley!

On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
screen
really is an art.
I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
it
more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
obvious.
Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
I know this gets debated.
For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
enhance the experience if done well.
It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
Best wishes,
Eric V

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider


>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>miss
> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
> glasses
> and
> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
> woman,
> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
> store
> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
> here to
> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
> motor
> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
> uses
> his
> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
> a
> car
> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
> hands
> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
> bike,
> he
> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
> the
> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
> bike
> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
> trailer
> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
> thing.
> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
> the
> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
> there
> is
> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>
> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
> something.
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>
> _______________________________________________
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et


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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 05:55:13 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:55:13 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
References: <49394b69.c6c1f10a.5ae4.ffffd3fa@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent 
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay 
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you 
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line 
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking 
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that 
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language 
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria 
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign 
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come 
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining 
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is 
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or 
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion 
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were 
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
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> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> cious%40suddenlink.net
>
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 06:39:59 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 22:39:59 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Descriptive books??
References: <aa85e5850812061738x3d0b6cd2u2cb2b4b46e84cd28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDDE50D36BBC48CA997CAB3A69EF2612@owner96190708e>

Here here here!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Descriptive books??


Kathy,

I know that you're right, I'm just frustrated about it all.


This world is so very vision-centric, and it makes me mad.  Since when
did "reading" become the act of interpreting pictures?


Now, I understand that pictures are an excellent way to teach children
concepts as they are learning to read -- so long as those pictures are
accessible.  But, the pictures are only a TOOL -- they are NOT reading
itself.



Even written picture descriptions are of only limited value, in my
opinion.  For an emerging reader, the parentheses sign before the
description can be misinterpreted as a "g" or unknown symbol for a
reader of uncontracted braille and possibly as "were" or "go" (if
tracking and placement within the cell are problems).  Additionally,
many picture descriptions are written in language that is above the
level of the reader.  This is just so very frustrating for the
emergent reader -- not fun, like reading should be.



I'm sorry, I'll get off my soapbox.  This prevalence of testing on
picture interpretations in READING classes is just so nonsensical to
me.  To me, it's another example of how dependent the sighted are upon
their sight and their lack of inclination to make education inclusive
for students who may not be able to interpret pictures visually.





Carlton


-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383

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From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 12:52:43 2008
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 04:52:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
Message-ID: <793159.14488.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Glad I've been able to keep you folks dreaming about "warm" weather! For now we just keep stacking things. In two weeks time we have 3 marching band parades, 2 performances of Jazz band, a concert, a large party at our home, and one at church. And that's just Winona! Good thing Daniel is doing the same things, we only have to add the big kid and Dad into the mix. Storage problems will wait till "next year".

As to the snow, please send some to SC where we'll be for Christmas. My kids have only seen in once!
In case I'm not back on for a bit...
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you!

 Debby 
bwbddl at yahoo.com
www.nfbflorida.org/parents



----- Original Message ----
From: Carol Castellano <blindchildren at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 10:41:54 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

Um, who me?  It's snowing here--I'm busy fantasizing about Florida!
Carol

At 09:30 AM 12/5/2008, you wrote:
>It is 12 degrees, gas is $1.60 a gallon and I have 199,995 miles on my van.
>My neighbor has a scooter we can borrow. You are right on the way Michael!
>
>Now where are those moderators I hired to keep us on task/message?
>
>This has been a test of the emergency moderator system...
>
>LOL
>
>
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Michael Freholm
>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:32 PM
>To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
>I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
>the car!
>Michael
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
>To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>On my way! It was 15 for a high here today!
>Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
>Be ready!
>
>Good thing gas is cheap.
>
>Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie...
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Debby B
>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
>To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??
>
>  Debby
>bwbddl at yahoo.com
>www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>Super! You build I'll supervise!
>You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
>keeps getting bigger and bigger!
>
>Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
>Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
>To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I
>actually did help my parents build so know how.
>
>LOL!
>Barbara
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>ail.com
>
>
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>
>
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From icdx at earthlink.net  Sun Dec  7 13:49:33 2008
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 05:49:33 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
References: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com>
	<86084DDE76C9477BABAC9F5DAA41CB78@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <000701c95872$a3316850$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>

Hi Mike,
Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with 
described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
Eric

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


> Carie:
>
> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
> thinking.
>
> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
> information be voiced.
>
> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case
> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But
> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision
> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television"
> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is
> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a
> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
> all wrong!".
>
> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>
> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>
> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things
> did
> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in
> a
> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
> the
> blind need.
>
> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
> following
> first term grade slip for social studies:
> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>
> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
> accompanying
> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
> indication
> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
> graded
> or a key component to curriculum.
>
> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was
> a
> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
> has
> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
> color
> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
> audio
> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
> people
> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
> had
> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
> ground
> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
> description
> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>
> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
> only do
> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
> Juliet,
> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part
> of
> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>
> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
> become
> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I
> can
> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of
> the
> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
> they
> definitely want.
>
> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
> for
> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
> our
> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
> things
> first.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> Eric:
>
> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
> the law.
>
> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>
> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
> the blind.
>
> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
> print. (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>
> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
> screen
> really is an art.
> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
> it
> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
> obvious.
> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
> I know this gets debated.
> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
> enhance the experience if done well.
> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
> Best wishes,
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>miss
>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>> glasses
>> and
>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>> woman,
>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>> store
>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>> here to
>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>> motor
>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>> uses
>> his
>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>> a
>> car
>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>> hands
>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>> bike,
>> he
>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>> the
>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>> bike
>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>> trailer
>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>> thing.
>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>> the
>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>> there
>> is
>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>
>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>> something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> blindkid:
>>
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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> et
>
>
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From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 15:25:57 2008
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 07:25:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
References: <49394b69.c6c1f10a.5ae4.ffffd3fa@mx.google.com>
	<B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <64146.51324.qm@web65407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department store beginning in early in elementary. 

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end. 

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the "Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent 
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay 
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you 
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line 
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking 
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that 
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language 
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria 
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign 
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come 
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining 
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is 
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or 
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion 
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were 
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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> co%40verizon.net
>
>
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 17:00:19 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:00:19 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
References: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com><86084DDE76C9477BABAC9F5DAA41CB78@owner96190708e>
	<000701c95872$a3316850$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <14160582412843F3AB12752EFBAC116B@owner96190708e>

Eric:

In closed-captioning, one doesn't have to render descriptions of 
costumes, lighting, scenery, facial expressions, etc. etc. etc. One 
simply renders the dialog into print (I doubt the deaf community has 
placed much pressure on movie-makers to describe voices). In contrast, 
what blind and visually impaired persons want or are at least given in 
audio descriptions are those elements that are a matter of judgment 
rather than of actual text. One can, for example, say in a court of law 
that one either has or has not rendered the dialog into closed captions; 
one would be hard-put to make such a definitive statement regarding 
described video (and I use that terminology because WGBH and its 
National Center for Accessible Media -- NCAM -- has "descriptive video" 
trademarked). Hence, one would be hard-put to demonstrate that one has 
fulfilled any hypothetical legal requirements for described video and it 
is unfair to mandate some system or standard that one cannot easily 
prove has either been followed or violated. That's the problem with the 
accessible technology mandates in several states: the technology is 
changing so fast that the exact definition of "accessibility" as legal 
eagles would like to define it is a moving target! Parenthetically, 
"accessibility", or, rather, the lack of it, is rather like the late 
Justice Potter Stuart's remark about pornography: I can't define it but 
I know it when I see it. But that's a topic for another day.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


Hi Mike,
Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with
described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
Eric

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


> Carie:
>
> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
> thinking.
>
> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
> information be voiced.
>
> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your 
> case
> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. 
> But
> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a 
> decision
> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative 
> Television"
> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery 
> is
> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always 
> a
> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
> all wrong!".
>
> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>
> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>
> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and 
> a
> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first 
> things
> did
> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like 
> it
> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done 
> in
> a
> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
> the
> blind need.
>
> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
> following
> first term grade slip for social studies:
> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>
> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
> accompanying
> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
> indication
> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased 
> both
> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
> graded
> or a key component to curriculum.
>
> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It 
> was
> a
> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
> has
> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
> color
> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
> audio
> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and 
> chief
> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people 
> who
> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
> people
> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
> had
> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
> ground
> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
> description
> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>
> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their 
> consumer
> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
> only do
> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies 
> considered
> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
> Juliet,
> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually 
> part
> of
> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of 
> the
> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>
> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
> become
> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. 
> I
> can
> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with 
> the
> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part 
> of
> the
> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
> they
> definitely want.
>
> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
> for
> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
> our
> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
> things
> first.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> Eric:
>
> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a 
> valid
> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied 
> with
> the law.
>
> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>
> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
> the blind.
>
> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as 
> audio
> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really 
> standard --
> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
> print. (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>
> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
> screen
> really is an art.
> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
> it
> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
> obvious.
> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have 
> to
> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my 
> own
> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
> I know this gets debated.
> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description 
> does
> enhance the experience if done well.
> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
> Best wishes,
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you 
>>would
>>miss
>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>> glasses
>> and
>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>> woman,
>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and 
>> a
>> store
>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>> here to
>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>> motor
>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>> uses
>> his
>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>> a
>> car
>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather 
>> dramatically
>> hands
>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>> bike,
>> he
>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. 
>> Then
>> the
>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>> bike
>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>> trailer
>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>> thing.
>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>> the
>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>> there
>> is
>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>
>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>> something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
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>> ail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
> et
>
>
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>
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From Barbara.Mathews at sce.com  Sun Dec  7 17:00:49 2008
From: Barbara.Mathews at sce.com (Barbara.Mathews at sce.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:00:49 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod
In-Reply-To: <CDDE50D36BBC48CA997CAB3A69EF2612@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <OF172ABBB9.AD19E0AA-ON88257518.005C91A8-88257518.005D749E@sce.com>


Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or
using the new talking iPod?




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Sun Dec  7 17:12:57 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:12:57 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
References: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS4CA5F8482982C3C19945EEBFC0@phx.gbl>

One last note of the funny.  Gas here is $1.47 here.  Don't know if it gets 
cheaper the farther south we'll go.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:30 AM
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

> It is 12 degrees, gas is $1.60 a gallon and I have 199,995 miles on my 
> van.
> My neighbor has a scooter we can borrow. You are right on the way Michael!
>
> Now where are those moderators I hired to keep us on task/message?
>
> This has been a test of the emergency moderator system...
>
> LOL
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Freholm
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:32 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Why don't you drive instead?  That way you can pick me up on the way!  And
> I'll drive the rest of the way!  Or ride a Harley on the trailer hooked to
> the car!
> Michael
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:58 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> On my way! It was 15 for a high here today!
> Barbara I should be there in about five hours!
> Be ready!
>
> Good thing gas is cheap.
>
> Thelma and Louise will have nothing on Barbara and Carrie...
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Debby B
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:34 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Lumber is bought and ready. Where are you??
>
> Debby
> bwbddl at yahoo.com
> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> Super! You build I'll supervise!
> You can fit right into my make-up bag Barbara! At my age the make up bag
> keeps getting bigger and bigger!
>
> Start buying the lumber Debby! LOL
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:51 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
> I'll just stow away in Carrie's luggage and build that garage for you.  I
> actually did help my parents build so know how.
>
> LOL!
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mfreholm%40unbridl
> edaccess.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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> 



From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 17:15:19 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:15:19 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
References: <49394b69.c6c1f10a.5ae4.ffffd3fa@mx.google.com><B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>
	<64146.51324.qm@web65407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <EDA5AD86CDD14CBDBBF65596F66C750E@owner96190708e>

Colleen:

You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
(Ah, mischief)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc
> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> cious%40suddenlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.
com
>

_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
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l.com


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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 17:17:31 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:17:31 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
References: <49394b69.c6c1f10a.5ae4.ffffd3fa@mx.google.com><B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>
	<64146.51324.qm@web65407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CD68F328213B478BBC9355A941FFFA7F@owner96190708e>

Colleen:

One more thought: when someone tells me I can go to the head of the 
line, I tell him or her: "It's my *peepers* that don't work, not my 
pins!" <g>

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc
> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> cious%40suddenlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.
com
>

_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
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l.com


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blindkid:
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
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From poetlori8 at msn.com  Sun Dec  7 17:19:47 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:19:47 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] storage solutions
In-Reply-To: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com><37FD9988300E484CB15B394249D35E44@andysallyhome>
	<B1B79E13F7834A3588788FA5E9EB2584@DKAHG>
References: <49393afd.47c1f10a.5ddd.ffffdfad@mx.google.com><37FD9988300E484CB15B394249D35E44@andysallyhome>
	<B1B79E13F7834A3588788FA5E9EB2584@DKAHG>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS61560717CD8C888D6BDDFEBFC0@phx.gbl>

Aw.  Sometimes it's fun to go out and take out frustrations shoveling those 
shining bits of white sunshine that accumulate.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kathy - Arizona" <kah-az at cox.net>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:34 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions

> Gee, my hubby & I are great at making lofts, & putting on all the little 
> special touches..........but we're in Arizona & the weather's 75 and sunny 
> out today.....maybe some of you should spend a week out here with us!  We 
> can let you shovel sunshine if you'd rather!
>
> Kathy
> Arizona NFB - Parents Division
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andy & Sally Thomas" <andysally at comcast.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>
>
>> You guys were having so much fun and no one was getting hurt so I just
>> thought I'd let you play.  No harm in dreaming about warm Florida weather
>> and new storage!
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
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> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Sun Dec  7 17:53:56 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:53:56 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
In-Reply-To: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com><86084DDE76C9477BABAC9F5DAA41CB78@owner96190708e>
	<000701c95872$a3316850$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>
References: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com><86084DDE76C9477BABAC9F5DAA41CB78@owner96190708e>
	<000701c95872$a3316850$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS51E56442EE30320C74D18EBFC0@phx.gbl>

I think it's like he said, it all depends on what the person likes.  When I 
was in high chool learning about hiring readers I was told I wanted to hire 
ones who didn't use much inflection in their voice.  I don't know why.  I 
never did.  I like readers who use inflection and make even the most boring 
book about teaching Math to elementary students interesting.
That's the problem with art.  We all like different flavors.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

> Hi Mike,
> Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with 
> described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
>> Carie:
>>
>> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
>> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
>> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
>> thinking.
>>
>> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
>> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
>> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
>> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
>> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
>> information be voiced.
>>
>> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
>> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case
>> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
>> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But
>> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision
>> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
>> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television"
>> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is
>> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
>> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
>> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
>> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
>> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
>> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
>> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a
>> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
>> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
>> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
>> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
>> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
>> all wrong!".
>>
>> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
>> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>>
>> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
>> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
>> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>>
>>
>> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>>
>> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
>> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
>> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things
>> did
>> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
>> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
>> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
>> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
>> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in
>> a
>> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
>> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
>> the
>> blind need.
>>
>> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
>> following
>> first term grade slip for social studies:
>> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>>
>> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
>> accompanying
>> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
>> indication
>> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
>> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
>> graded
>> or a key component to curriculum.
>>
>> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was
>> a
>> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
>> has
>> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
>> color
>> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
>> audio
>> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
>> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
>> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
>> people
>> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
>> had
>> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
>> ground
>> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
>> description
>> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
>> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>>
>> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
>> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
>> only do
>> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
>> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
>> Juliet,
>> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part
>> of
>> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
>> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>>
>> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
>> become
>> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I
>> can
>> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
>> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
>> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of
>> the
>> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
>> they
>> definitely want.
>>
>> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
>> for
>> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
>> our
>> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
>> things
>> first.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
>> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
>> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
>> the law.
>>
>> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
>> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
>> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
>> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
>> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>>
>> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
>> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
>> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
>> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
>> the blind.
>>
>> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
>> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
>> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
>> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
>> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
>> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
>> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
>> print. (grin)
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
>> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>>
>> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
>> screen
>> really is an art.
>> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
>> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
>> it
>> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
>> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
>> obvious.
>> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
>> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
>> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
>> I know this gets debated.
>> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
>> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
>> enhance the experience if done well.
>> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
>> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
>> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eric V
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>>miss
>>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>>> glasses
>>> and
>>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>>> woman,
>>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>>> store
>>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>>> here to
>>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>>> motor
>>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>>> uses
>>> his
>>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>>> a
>>> car
>>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>>> hands
>>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>>> bike,
>>> he
>>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>>> the
>>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>>> bike
>>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>>> trailer
>>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>>> thing.
>>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>>> the
>>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>>> there
>>> is
>>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>>
>>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>>
>>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>>> ail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
>> et
>>
>>
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>>
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>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>
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>
>
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> 



From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 18:35:49 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:35:49 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
In-Reply-To: <B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <493c178b.1d3e400a.1ff9.6c05@mx.google.com>

Dear Mike,
In a sense, that is precisely my point; in asking people to look deeper for
the subtleties. For many of these students the molehills have become
mountains (due to lack of proper training, independent practice
opportunities, over-protection from home and school, and a lack of
confidence)--and it is a great thing they have a non-judgmental safe place
to air it out with peers and find solutions (the NABS-list). I think it is
good for parents to get a window in to the future too-of the results of not
living a lifestyle of normal expectations in even the small things daily,
daily, daily...and relying on the school to take the responsibility for
normal life activities (better known in some pro circles as Expanded Core
Curriculum). 

I have seen over and over these "molehills" get in the way of students--(in
this case for example)even avoiding lunch altogether because of the
discomfort or unsure-ness of what to do. These things become REAL
mountains...these kids need our encouragement and to be built up. I find
that they regularly "call" each other on low expectations for self. It is a
great non-threatening way to read about how others are doing something so
simply and plainly--and to measure yourself privately about it. It is good
to see how the others who have gotten training or had normal expectations
teach the ones who need it. I am real glad for the list, I think it is
changing lives and brining many to face their true need for further training
or gaining of confidence or to raise the bar for themselves. These students
need our support and cheerleading, not frustration at their struggles...it
is the system that has failed them that is where our frustration should turn
in my opinion.  We can not fail them.

Love, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:55 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent 
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay 
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you 
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line 
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking 
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that 
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language 
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria 
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign 
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come 
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining 
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is 
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or 
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion 
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were 
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 19:14:48 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:14:48 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
In-Reply-To: <86084DDE76C9477BABAC9F5DAA41CB78@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <493c20b3.1138400a.5948.5aaa@mx.google.com>

Dear Mike,
I don't think we are in real disagreement.

My point about the classroom teacher or classmates (the trouble with email
communication) was that untrained people often decide by what they think is
important or try and describe everything without real thought--and on the
fly in a classroom "emergency" situation. I agree and understand that
Sometimes hair color is not important sometimes it is. Sometimes in a period
piece or any film, costume, scenery is part of the info needed to comprehend
a scene or the plot from background info--sometimes in Jordan's assignments
this part of a film was analyzed or knowledge of it required. It is more
skill than true art I think, and also there will always be some who
naturally are better at it, and there will always be some "mistakes"...and
as you say sometimes certain people are more interested in costumes than
others...

This is why consumer reviews are so important. On the advisory board Jordan
is sent films--along with others, to review and to say if hair color is
important in this instance or not, what is needed to determine the scene
that is occurring visually that you can not discern from dialogue. Obviously
he doesn't review every film, but they ask for ongoing feedback through
their site, they try and learn from it and make future decisions about what
is truly needed.
 

It is different from translation-but similar too because it does involve
some interpretation (ASL or Spanish or any foreign language), Captioning is
totally just transcribing though, it is exact dialogue, and has no
interpretations or abbreviations. I think we can have some standards, it is
difficult though, and we want it right if it is going into law...one of the
biggest pieces is the requirement of user input and control...IMO

Hopefully it will come. 

Best,
Carrie





From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:49 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
Carie:

I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel 
that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more 
stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's 
thinking.

You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally 
mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After 
all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important 
than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly 
acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency 
information be voiced.

And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --  
one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case 
in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described 
"nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But 
who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision 
as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that 
described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television" 
would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is 
largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative 
Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to 
fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind 
persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces 
and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and 
nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as 
valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a 
judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the 
closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of 
closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO). 
Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted 
persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it 
all wrong!".

Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily 
susceptible of being a legal requirement!

If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a 
clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be 
accommodated within the framework of the constitution.

Mike Freeman




From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 19:33:48 2008
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:33:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
References: <49394b69.c6c1f10a.5ae4.ffffd3fa@mx.google.com><B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>
	<64146.51324.qm@web65407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CD68F328213B478BBC9355A941FFFA7F@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <334091.89466.qm@web65402.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

That's a good one! I think I will wait to share that with my students, though. :-)




________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 11:17:31 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Colleen:

One more thought: when someone tells me I can go to the head of the 
line, I tell him or her: "It's my *peepers* that don't work, not my 
pins!" <g>

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
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> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>
>
>>_______________________________________________
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>
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 19:42:34 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:42:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
In-Reply-To: <EDA5AD86CDD14CBDBBF65596F66C750E@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <493c2732.1f2a400a.1d73.7e22@mx.google.com>

Dear Colleen,
I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
still... 

What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
10 items or less...)I don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and M lesson
In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and M certification to
teach it...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
opportunities to use and practice the "skill".

That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
don't think about it as a teaching moment.

But this rush to make things easier for us--often makes things harder for
our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
conscious effort and make it a lifestyle--not mere lessons now and then.

I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
long run it will save you to put effort into this now.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Colleen:

You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
(Ah, mischief)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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>
>
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 20:21:48 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:21:48 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS51E56442EE30320C74D18EBFC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <493c3063.102b400a.625a.ffff9e62@mx.google.com>

Okay-
We could as Mike said go round about this one for ever...art or skill? The
trouble with truly defining art is that art itself means no definition
really, interpretation is the core of it in a way. I think we can and need
to put some definition to the skill/art of describing and reading. (thus why
we don't rush to write a simple law without thought for the enforcement) And
BTW Barbara makes an important point about readers. I read professionally
for awhile and each person wanted a bit different and also wanted things
different at different times. Sometimes in a rush things were wanted so I
was reading as fast and without inflection as JAWS on fast speed. BUT to
purely open it up to volunteers is a problem without training, I recall some
early RFB&D's I was shocked, one sounded like a teen girl and she um and
ahh-ed and miss pronounced...one sounded like an old man about to fall
asleep himself...
THE important thing was in real life that the blind person knew how to take
control and had the opportunity to have control. Some like in science wanted
a reader who knows nothing about science so they don't throw in their own
interpretation, some want somebody who knows science for pronunciation and
inflections that are knowledgeable...
Describing is a bit different.

As for art and skill, is a gourmet cook skilled or an artist? When do the
cultural artisians cross over to skilled, when the pottery is mass produced?

My favorite personal definition of art came to me at a museum of modern art
once. There was a display by Yoko Ono. It was just a regular apple that you
could buy at a grocery store, on a stand, just sitting there. Where was HER
art in it? Was she waiting to see if someone would dare to pick up the apple
and take a bite? If I took a bite would the security alarms go off, would I
get kicked out of the museum? Or would I get to meet Yoko Ono? To this day I
regret I did not take a bite and find out! That was HER art in it...I guess.

Whenever I go to a museum or see "modern art" I kick my self that I am not
taping a paintbrush to my dog's paw or coming up with the stuff they do and
making some easy $$$$. That is not skill...but I guess it is art...

That is all I hope I have to say, I am off to buy my Christmas tree. Finding
the right one, now that is an art in my opinion, smile...

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

I think it's like he said, it all depends on what the person likes.  When I 
was in high chool learning about hiring readers I was told I wanted to hire 
ones who didn't use much inflection in their voice.  I don't know why.  I 
never did.  I like readers who use inflection and make even the most boring 
book about teaching Math to elementary students interesting.
That's the problem with art.  We all like different flavors.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

> Hi Mike,
> Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with 
> described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
>> Carie:
>>
>> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
>> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
>> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
>> thinking.
>>
>> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
>> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
>> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
>> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
>> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
>> information be voiced.
>>
>> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
>> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case
>> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
>> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But
>> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision
>> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
>> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television"
>> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is
>> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
>> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
>> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
>> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
>> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
>> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
>> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a
>> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
>> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
>> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
>> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
>> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
>> all wrong!".
>>
>> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
>> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>>
>> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
>> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
>> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>>
>>
>> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>>
>> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
>> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
>> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things
>> did
>> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
>> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
>> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
>> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
>> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in
>> a
>> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
>> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
>> the
>> blind need.
>>
>> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
>> following
>> first term grade slip for social studies:
>> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>>
>> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
>> accompanying
>> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
>> indication
>> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
>> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
>> graded
>> or a key component to curriculum.
>>
>> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was
>> a
>> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
>> has
>> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
>> color
>> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
>> audio
>> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
>> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
>> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
>> people
>> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
>> had
>> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
>> ground
>> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
>> description
>> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
>> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>>
>> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
>> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
>> only do
>> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
>> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
>> Juliet,
>> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part
>> of
>> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
>> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>>
>> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
>> become
>> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I
>> can
>> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
>> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
>> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of
>> the
>> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
>> they
>> definitely want.
>>
>> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
>> for
>> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
>> our
>> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
>> things
>> first.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
>> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
>> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
>> the law.
>>
>> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
>> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
>> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
>> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
>> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>>
>> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
>> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
>> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
>> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
>> the blind.
>>
>> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
>> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
>> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
>> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
>> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
>> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
>> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
>> print. (grin)
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
>> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>>
>> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
>> screen
>> really is an art.
>> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
>> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
>> it
>> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
>> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
>> obvious.
>> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
>> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
>> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
>> I know this gets debated.
>> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
>> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
>> enhance the experience if done well.
>> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
>> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
>> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eric V
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>>miss
>>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>>> glasses
>>> and
>>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>>> woman,
>>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>>> store
>>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>>> here to
>>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>>> motor
>>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>>> uses
>>> his
>>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>>> a
>>> car
>>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>>> hands
>>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>>> bike,
>>> he
>>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>>> the
>>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>>> bike
>>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>>> trailer
>>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>>> thing.
>>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>>> the
>>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>>> there
>>> is
>>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>>
>>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>>
>>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 20:54:38 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:54:38 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
References: <49394268.c6c1f10a.59e8.639f@mx.google.com><86084DDE76C9477BABAC9F5DAA41CB78@owner96190708e><000701c95872$a3316850$6805a8c0@CSMC.EDU>
	<BAY113-DS51E56442EE30320C74D18EBFC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F05856B888F34977A1AB2D185A810EFA@owner96190708e>

Barbara:

The merit of reading without inflection is that the reader can read 
faster. I suspect you got your information from Peggy Elliott who liked 
reading without inflection. Bear in mind that he wasn't trying to be 
inspired but was trying to get the maximum amount of information input 
in the minimum amount of time. No one would expect, for example, for 
"Leaves of Grass" to be read at breakneck speed.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


I think it's like he said, it all depends on what the person likes. 
When I
was in high chool learning about hiring readers I was told I wanted to 
hire
ones who didn't use much inflection in their voice.  I don't know why. 
I
never did.  I like readers who use inflection and make even the most 
boring
book about teaching Math to elementary students interesting.
That's the problem with art.  We all like different flavors.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

> Hi Mike,
> Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning 
> with
> described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
>> Carie:
>>
>> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I 
>> feel
>> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
>> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
>> thinking.
>>
>> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
>> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
>> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
>> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
>> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
>> information be voiced.
>>
>> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a 
>> skill --
>> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your 
>> case
>> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
>> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. 
>> But
>> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a 
>> decision
>> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
>> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative 
>> Television"
>> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery 
>> is
>> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started 
>> Narrative
>> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
>> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
>> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
>> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
>> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit 
>> as
>> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is 
>> always a
>> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
>> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
>> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
>> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had 
>> sighted
>> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got 
>> it
>> all wrong!".
>>
>> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
>> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>>
>> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
>> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
>> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>>
>>
>> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>>
>> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and 
>> a
>> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
>> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first 
>> things
>> did
>> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
>> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
>> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
>> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like 
>> it
>> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done 
>> in
>> a
>> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
>> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of 
>> what
>> the
>> blind need.
>>
>> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
>> following
>> first term grade slip for social studies:
>> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>>
>> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
>> accompanying
>> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
>> indication
>> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased 
>> both
>> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
>> graded
>> or a key component to curriculum.
>>
>> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It 
>> was
>> a
>> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
>> has
>> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
>> color
>> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that 
>> does
>> audio
>> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and 
>> chief
>> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people 
>> who
>> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
>> people
>> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that 
>> things
>> had
>> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
>> ground
>> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
>> description
>> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, 
>> and
>> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>>
>> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their 
>> consumer
>> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
>> only do
>> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies 
>> considered
>> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
>> Juliet,
>> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually 
>> part
>> of
>> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of 
>> the
>> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>>
>> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
>> become
>> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as 
>> well. I
>> can
>> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with 
>> the
>> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
>> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part 
>> of
>> the
>> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
>> they
>> definitely want.
>>
>> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is 
>> important
>> for
>> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to 
>> get
>> our
>> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
>> things
>> first.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately 
>> require
>> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a 
>> valid
>> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied 
>> with
>> the law.
>>
>> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
>> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
>> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
>> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law 
>> because
>> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>>
>> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
>> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was 
>> quite
>> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
>> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension 
>> by
>> the blind.
>>
>> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
>> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as 
>> audio
>> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
>> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
>> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really 
>> standard --
>> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
>> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
>> print. (grin)
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! 
>> I
>> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>>
>> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
>> screen
>> really is an art.
>> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
>> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have 
>> made
>> it
>> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
>> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
>> obvious.
>> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have 
>> to
>> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my 
>> own
>> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
>> I know this gets debated.
>> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
>> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description 
>> does
>> enhance the experience if done well.
>> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription 
>> track
>> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
>> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eric V
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you 
>>>would
>>>miss
>>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>>> glasses
>>> and
>>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>>> woman,
>>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and 
>>> a
>>> store
>>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>>> here to
>>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>>> motor
>>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>>> uses
>>> his
>>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire 
>>> at
>>> a
>>> car
>>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather 
>>> dramatically
>>> hands
>>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>>> bike,
>>> he
>>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. 
>>> Then
>>> the
>>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>>> bike
>>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>>> trailer
>>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some 
>>> visual
>>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>>> thing.
>>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket 
>>> with
>>> the
>>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>>> there
>>> is
>>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>>
>>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am 
>>> missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>>
>>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>>> ail.com
>>>
>>>
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>> et
>>
>>
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec  7 21:31:14 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:31:14 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
References: <493c3063.102b400a.625a.ffff9e62@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <01704E777FFB4DBB94451442AA378A6F@owner96190708e>

Get a Noble! That's all you need to know! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


Okay-
We could as Mike said go round about this one for ever...art or skill? 
The
trouble with truly defining art is that art itself means no definition
really, interpretation is the core of it in a way. I think we can and 
need
to put some definition to the skill/art of describing and reading. (thus 
why
we don't rush to write a simple law without thought for the enforcement) 
And
BTW Barbara makes an important point about readers. I read 
professionally
for awhile and each person wanted a bit different and also wanted things
different at different times. Sometimes in a rush things were wanted so 
I
was reading as fast and without inflection as JAWS on fast speed. BUT to
purely open it up to volunteers is a problem without training, I recall 
some
early RFB&D's I was shocked, one sounded like a teen girl and she um and
ahh-ed and miss pronounced...one sounded like an old man about to fall
asleep himself...
THE important thing was in real life that the blind person knew how to 
take
control and had the opportunity to have control. Some like in science 
wanted
a reader who knows nothing about science so they don't throw in their 
own
interpretation, some want somebody who knows science for pronunciation 
and
inflections that are knowledgeable...
Describing is a bit different.

As for art and skill, is a gourmet cook skilled or an artist? When do 
the
cultural artisians cross over to skilled, when the pottery is mass 
produced?

My favorite personal definition of art came to me at a museum of modern 
art
once. There was a display by Yoko Ono. It was just a regular apple that 
you
could buy at a grocery store, on a stand, just sitting there. Where was 
HER
art in it? Was she waiting to see if someone would dare to pick up the 
apple
and take a bite? If I took a bite would the security alarms go off, 
would I
get kicked out of the museum? Or would I get to meet Yoko Ono? To this 
day I
regret I did not take a bite and find out! That was HER art in it...I 
guess.

Whenever I go to a museum or see "modern art" I kick my self that I am 
not
taping a paintbrush to my dog's paw or coming up with the stuff they do 
and
making some easy $$$$. That is not skill...but I guess it is art...

That is all I hope I have to say, I am off to buy my Christmas tree. 
Finding
the right one, now that is an art in my opinion, smile...



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

I think it's like he said, it all depends on what the person likes. 
When I
was in high chool learning about hiring readers I was told I wanted to 
hire
ones who didn't use much inflection in their voice.  I don't know why. 
I
never did.  I like readers who use inflection and make even the most 
boring
book about teaching Math to elementary students interesting.
That's the problem with art.  We all like different flavors.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

> Hi Mike,
> Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning 
> with
> described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
>> Carie:
>>
>> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I 
>> feel
>> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
>> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
>> thinking.
>>
>> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
>> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
>> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
>> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
>> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
>> information be voiced.
>>
>> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a 
>> skill --
>> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your 
>> case
>> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
>> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. 
>> But
>> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a 
>> decision
>> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
>> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative 
>> Television"
>> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery 
>> is
>> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started 
>> Narrative
>> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
>> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
>> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
>> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
>> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit 
>> as
>> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is 
>> always a
>> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
>> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
>> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
>> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had 
>> sighted
>> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got 
>> it
>> all wrong!".
>>
>> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
>> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>>
>> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
>> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
>> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>>
>>
>> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>>
>> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and 
>> a
>> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
>> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first 
>> things
>> did
>> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
>> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
>> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
>> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like 
>> it
>> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done 
>> in
>> a
>> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
>> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of 
>> what
>> the
>> blind need.
>>
>> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
>> following
>> first term grade slip for social studies:
>> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>>
>> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
>> accompanying
>> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
>> indication
>> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased 
>> both
>> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
>> graded
>> or a key component to curriculum.
>>
>> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It 
>> was
>> a
>> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
>> has
>> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
>> color
>> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that 
>> does
>> audio
>> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and 
>> chief
>> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people 
>> who
>> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
>> people
>> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that 
>> things
>> had
>> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
>> ground
>> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
>> description
>> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, 
>> and
>> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>>
>> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their 
>> consumer
>> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
>> only do
>> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies 
>> considered
>> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
>> Juliet,
>> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually 
>> part
>> of
>> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of 
>> the
>> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>>
>> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
>> become
>> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as 
>> well. I
>> can
>> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with 
>> the
>> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
>> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part 
>> of
>> the
>> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
>> they
>> definitely want.
>>
>> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is 
>> important
>> for
>> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to 
>> get
>> our
>> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
>> things
>> first.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately 
>> require
>> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a 
>> valid
>> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied 
>> with
>> the law.
>>
>> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
>> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
>> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
>> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law 
>> because
>> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>>
>> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
>> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was 
>> quite
>> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
>> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension 
>> by
>> the blind.
>>
>> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
>> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as 
>> audio
>> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
>> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
>> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really 
>> standard --
>> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
>> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
>> print. (grin)
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! 
>> I
>> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>>
>> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
>> screen
>> really is an art.
>> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
>> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have 
>> made
>> it
>> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
>> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
>> obvious.
>> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have 
>> to
>> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my 
>> own
>> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
>> I know this gets debated.
>> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
>> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description 
>> does
>> enhance the experience if done well.
>> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription 
>> track
>> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
>> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eric V
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you 
>>>would
>>>miss
>>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>>> glasses
>>> and
>>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>>> woman,
>>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and 
>>> a
>>> store
>>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>>> here to
>>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>>> motor
>>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>>> uses
>>> his
>>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire 
>>> at
>>> a
>>> car
>>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather 
>>> dramatically
>>> hands
>>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>>> bike,
>>> he
>>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. 
>>> Then
>>> the
>>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>>> bike
>>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>>> trailer
>>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some 
>>> visual
>>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>>> thing.
>>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket 
>>> with
>>> the
>>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>>> there
>>> is
>>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>>
>>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am 
>>> missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>>
>>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>>> ail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
>> et
>>
>>
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>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 21:31:36 2008
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:31:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
References: <493c2732.1f2a400a.1d73.7e22@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <909470.1708.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

One of the things that make teaching these concepts hard is the finite amount of time that we have for a community visit. The bus is waiting and we have x amount of time until we have to be back. also, teaching "waiting" is not taught in isolation, but as part of an outing in which many other things are covered. Planning the things that I want to cover and trying to think out the tasks' steps ahead of time take time and thought. There are always unplanned things that throw a wrench in the works. That mess-up turns into a lesson on the fly. 

Unfortunately, many of my kids' parents do not teach them these skills. To their credit, they are tired, rushed, and the waiting in line experience is usually not pleasant. They sometimes view it as easier to park the child on a bench and  just do it themselves than to take the time to think it through and teach it. It's not right, but that's how it is. Lots of parents don't even truly believe that their child will ever need to wait in a line, pay for groceries, or order food at a fast food counter.

Waiting at school is different because the environment is familiar and so are the people. Kids know where things are, the voices of their teachers and classmates. The cafeteria workers know that the student needs to be told what the choices are. I guess I should have specified teaching in the community. Maybe it is just hard for me.

You guys are a unique group. The fact that this list is here and that you are on it, that all of the support and advocacy groups are here is because you are active in making your self or your child as independent as possible. At our regional TVI meetings, lack of parental involvement is a frequently discussed topic. Just as in regular education, lots of parents think that teaching is the school's job, not theirs. Of my 23 students, I would guess that only 5 parents take an active role in teaching daily living skills. Neither one of my Braille students' parents know Braille and you can bet your bottom dollar that those kids work that for all it is worth when they want to!   

On the subject of O&M, my O&M wants to be involved in lots of the community travel. We collaborate on lessons so that I can get her O&M ideas and she can get mine from the VI teaching standpoint. We have worked together for a long time and are friends outside of school, so it is not a problem for us, but some specialists are "territorial". I don't want someone coming in and giving my student new Braille instruction at school. That is my responsibility and I have my own methods. An O&M might not agree with the way I teach a orientation skill or a mobility routine. It is just a thing that we work. Maybe that is unusual, but I haven't found it to be.

This is just my experience.
Colleen








________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 1:42:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Dear Colleen,
I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
still... 

What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
10 items or less...)I don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and M lesson
In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and M certification to
teach it...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
opportunities to use and practice the "skill".

That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
don't think about it as a teaching moment.

But this rush to make things easier for us--often makes things harder for
our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
conscious effort and make it a lifestyle--not mere lessons now and then.

I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
long run it will save you to put effort into this now.



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Colleen:

You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
(Ah, mischief)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
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>>>
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> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
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>>>
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> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
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> cious%40suddenlink.net
>
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From burgawicki at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 00:08:16 2008
From: burgawicki at yahoo.com (Kathy B)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
References: <493c2732.1f2a400a.1d73.7e22@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <846795.16464.qm@web45809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Speaking of stores....one thing I started doing a few months ago with my 2 1/2 yr old was putting her in the basket part of the cart when I grocery shop.  I just pile all of the groceries up on her.  I have taught her more of what is in the store and what things feel like this way than I ever could be just talking about what's in the store.  She also loves handing me things to put one the conveyor belt when we are checking out so it saves time......sometimes. :)  I thought maybe someone else might find this helpful.  Happy shopping.
Kathy


________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 2:42:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Dear Colleen,
I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
still... 

What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
10 items or less...)I don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and M lesson
In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and M certification to
teach it...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
opportunities to use and practice the "skill".

That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
don't think about it as a teaching moment.

But this rush to make things easier for us--often makes things harder for
our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
conscious effort and make it a lifestyle--not mere lessons now and then.

I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
long run it will save you to put effort into this now.



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Colleen:

You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
(Ah, mischief)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
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> cious%40suddenlink.net
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From andysally at comcast.net  Mon Dec  8 00:09:57 2008
From: andysally at comcast.net (Andy & Sally Thomas)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:09:57 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod
In-Reply-To: <OF172ABBB9.AD19E0AA-ON88257518.005C91A8-88257518.005D749E@sce.com>
References: <OF172ABBB9.AD19E0AA-ON88257518.005C91A8-88257518.005D749E@sce.com>
Message-ID: <CFA6806A33244D0394CD98D82665476A@andysallyhome>

David just won an iPod shuffle and was all excited to use the "new, 
accessible iTunes with JAWS" but wasn't able to make it work.  I haven't 
tried looking at it myself yet.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Barbara.Mathews at sce.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:00 AM
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod


>
> Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or
> using the new talking iPod?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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4:55 PM




From Kassyp36 at msn.com  Mon Dec  8 00:12:30 2008
From: Kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 17:12:30 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
In-Reply-To: <909470.1708.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <493c2732.1f2a400a.1d73.7e22@mx.google.com>
	<909470.1708.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL0-DAV38C33DE0E62E4AB117D80FC3FD0@phx.gbl>

I guess I was one of those blind people who grew up learning to wait in
line.  That is just what you do in a large family.  I can remember the long
Saturday afternoons at the local warehouse club with my parents and
siblings.  Now I enjoys those times with my husband and children.  Sometimes
I do not take them, but they all will get plenty of experience waiting in
line.  Of course, all my children will pay for their own groceries, movie
tickets, and the like.  They will all need to understand the dynamics of
waiting in line.  Ironically, this concept seems to be harder for my sighted
son than my two blind children.  Jacob is just really impatient.  Just my
thoughts.  

Kasondra Payne 




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 00:56:46 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:56:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
In-Reply-To: <909470.1708.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493c70d5.0c17400a.2118.fffff273@mx.google.com>

Dear Colleen,
I am glad for the clarification. At first it really sounded like you felt
the concepts of being in line beyond the following the line; knowing some
idea how much line was ahead or behind, and how near one was to checking out
or if in the correct line was somehow practically beyond a blind child's
ability to conceive or learn...

Low expectations abound, in parents and teachers. In parents and teachers
both I find it is often due largely to not knowing any blind adults (or if
they do...it is ONE blind adult that they are perhaps acquainted only with),
or how they live independently. They are full of the fears and
misconceptions about blindness. Just like better (or accurately) informed
parents are more likely to be on this list, so are better (or accurately)
informed teachers.

I too find more parents who do not know Braille than who do. I have seen in
blind people-adults and children, the result is a hurting and a feeling of
lack of validation more than anything else...that should be reason enough to
learn it. We have not made it easy enough for parents to learn it though
too. I know some Teachers of Blind Students who have short courses for the
parents of their Braille readers and it has been very successful for the
parent to get engaged to do it and also go on and learn more on their own. 

In my case I am ashamed to say in the beginning I did not understand my son
would be a primary Braille reader, I had absolutely no encouragement or
knowledge from the school or connection to other parents...I only learned
the alphabet on my own. Since I did not use it much I began to lose it. Then
I started writing small notes and working at a place where I had occasion to
write short things in Braille and it began to "stick". By then my son was
way ahead of me in the contractions and I seemed to have no time...then I
realized my failure and have been learning grade II and trying to get
fluent. It is harder than sign language in that if you speak to your child
with sign language every day it is easy to gain and remain fluent, and to
understand the need...we have to better help parents understand why they
should know Braille. I know not all parents of deaf children even know sign
language but it is a bad thing...It is one of the things I would like to
change, making it easy and understandable to parents--so they as a matter of
course become fluent in Braille. I have been happy to see many take the
certification transcriber's course and many also to take the Hadley course
in the last year. Many more parents are finding out how they can learn
Braille along with their child...or even ahead if they have a newborn but we
still have a ways to go.

Of course parents reflect the full cross section of society, and I have
found those who truly think they can not teach their child, they can not
think of "how" or "what" to do non-visually...they have like a mental block
and really think professionalism is necessary for the daily living and
travel, and even reading. In some cases the professionals themselves plant
these seeds and make it that way and even show "territorialism" here too. In
some other cases I have truly seen the parent not understand the true normal
capabilities of blind people and wanted the professionals to "fix" their
child...or some with low vision children can not admit to their child "being
blind", just like some teachers don't want low vision children "looking
blind". And a few parents are just lazy or take the "easy way out" and do it
for their child now--not looking ahead to the future. And I have met a very
few who appeared embarrassed and apologetic. I can think of one now--he can
not view his son as a MAN, he has not treated his son the same as if he were
a sighted son with the same expectations--and that is all the more reason to
try and get that father to meet some REAL blind MEN. I also know the teacher
of this boy and she has neither done anything to raise expectations or make
it seem like anyone without a degree in blindness or O and M can do anything
to teach him.

I would like to see how we can help your "lack of parent involvement". Do
every one of them know about this list and receive Future Reflections? Do
they know about the Texas POBC? Have you volunteered to take them to a NFB
chapter meeting or a state NFB Convention? Have you volunteered to have a
workshop with the TX-POBC and NFB coming in? Have you gone to their homes
and shown them how easy it is to do daily living things? Do you invite them
to come to the O and M and community lessons? Have you sent them any of our
videos? Do you send home "homework" with "how to's"? Don't give up on
them!!!

 How do you think we can help you? I recall you had a newsletter--that is
good! None of my son's teacher ever had such a thing.

One final thing, it seemed you said you had 23 students and only 2 were
Braille readers. Why? Are the others reading print competitively?...At
"sighted" reading speeds without fatigue and do they have mobility in
reading capability--meaning you can not take a CCTV into a car...

And have you asked the other 18 families WHY they do not take an active
role, each one likely has a bit different reason, I bet some of them just
plain feel they don't know how or what to expect...

Please let us know how you think we can help, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Colleen Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

One of the things that make teaching these concepts hard is the finite
amount of time that we have for a community visit. The bus is waiting and we
have x amount of time until we have to be back. also, teaching "waiting" is
not taught in isolation, but as part of an outing in which many other things
are covered. Planning the things that I want to cover and trying to think
out the tasks' steps ahead of time take time and thought. There are always
unplanned things that throw a wrench in the works. That mess-up turns into a
lesson on the fly. 

Unfortunately, many of my kids' parents do not teach them these skills. To
their credit, they are tired, rushed, and the waiting in line experience is
usually not pleasant. They sometimes view it as easier to park the child on
a bench and  just do it themselves than to take the time to think it through
and teach it. It's not right, but that's how it is. Lots of parents don't
even truly believe that their child will ever need to wait in a line, pay
for groceries, or order food at a fast food counter.

Waiting at school is different because the environment is familiar and so
are the people. Kids know where things are, the voices of their teachers and
classmates. The cafeteria workers know that the student needs to be told
what the choices are. I guess I should have specified teaching in the
community. Maybe it is just hard for me.

You guys are a unique group. The fact that this list is here and that you
are on it, that all of the support and advocacy groups are here is because
you are active in making your self or your child as independent as possible.
At our regional TVI meetings, lack of parental involvement is a frequently
discussed topic. Just as in regular education, lots of parents think that
teaching is the school's job, not theirs. Of my 23 students, I would guess
that only 5 parents take an active role in teaching daily living skills.
Neither one of my Braille students' parents know Braille and you can bet
your bottom dollar that those kids work that for all it is worth when they
want to!   

On the subject of O&M, my O&M wants to be involved in lots of the community
travel. We collaborate on lessons so that I can get her O&M ideas and she
can get mine from the VI teaching standpoint. We have worked together for a
long time and are friends outside of school, so it is not a problem for us,
but some specialists are "territorial". I don't want someone coming in and
giving my student new Braille instruction at school. That is my
responsibility and I have my own methods. An O&M might not agree with the
way I teach a orientation skill or a mobility routine. It is just a thing
that we work. Maybe that is unusual, but I haven't found it to be.

This is just my experience.
Colleen








________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 1:42:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Dear Colleen,
I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
still... 

What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
10 items or less...)I don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and M lesson
In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and M certification to
teach it...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
opportunities to use and practice the "skill".

That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
don't think about it as a teaching moment.

But this rush to make things easier for us--often makes things harder for
our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
conscious effort and make it a lifestyle--not mere lessons now and then.

I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
long run it will save you to put effort into this now.



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Colleen:

You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
(Ah, mischief)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
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> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> cious%40suddenlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
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com
>

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 01:02:37 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:02:37 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Noble
In-Reply-To: <01704E777FFB4DBB94451442AA378A6F@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <493c7234.1e3e400a.1f41.15a5@mx.google.com>

What the heck is a Noble (besides a knight in shining armour), is that an
artificial tree? Those words are not spoken in my home. I have a real tree
and I take it down when the last needle falls off, usually just before
Valentines day,,,really ask my embarrassed children. 

If I was a Noble I might have my servants take it down a little earlier....

Ho Ho hO

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Get a Noble! That's all you need to know! (grin)

Mike





From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Dec  8 01:26:40 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 17:26:40 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Noble
References: <493c7234.1e3e400a.1f41.15a5@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <BF0BF5C7800F45BDAFC3C6F74288CDBD@owner96190708e>

It's a type of fir tree available out here in the PNW. Very symmetric 
with firm branches.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble


What the heck is a Noble (besides a knight in shining armour), is that 
an
artificial tree? Those words are not spoken in my home. I have a real 
tree
and I take it down when the last needle falls off, usually just before
Valentines day,,,really ask my embarrassed children.

If I was a Noble I might have my servants take it down a little 
earlier....

Ho Ho hO



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Get a Noble! That's all you need to know! (grin)

Mike



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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 02:31:57 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:31:57 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
In-Reply-To: <846795.16464.qm@web45809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493c8724.0c17400a.211c.252f@mx.google.com>

Great beginnings Kathy! Thanks for sharing.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kathy B
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:08 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Speaking of stores....one thing I started doing a few months ago with my 2
1/2 yr old was putting her in the basket part of the cart when I grocery
shop.  I just pile all of the groceries up on her.  I have taught her more
of what is in the store and what things feel like this way than I ever could
be just talking about what's in the store.  She also loves handing me things
to put one the conveyor belt when we are checking out so it saves
time......sometimes. :)  I thought maybe someone else might find this
helpful.  Happy shopping.
Kathy


________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 2:42:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Dear Colleen,
I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
still... 

What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
10 items or less...)I don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and M lesson
In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and M certification to
teach it...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
opportunities to use and practice the "skill".

That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
don't think about it as a teaching moment.

But this rush to make things easier for us--often makes things harder for
our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
conscious effort and make it a lifestyle--not mere lessons now and then.

I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
long run it will save you to put effort into this now.



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Colleen:

You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
(Ah, mischief)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen






________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups


I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> reak69%40gm
>>> ail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc
> co%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> cious%40suddenlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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com
>

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From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  8 02:52:51 2008
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:52:51 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Noble
References: <493c7234.1e3e400a.1f41.15a5@mx.google.com>
	<BF0BF5C7800F45BDAFC3C6F74288CDBD@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <EBBD44B1CEE94D618033892EBB414FED@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     Adding to Mike's description, the Noble Fir is known as the Cadillac of 
Christmas trees. When I lived in Oregon, it was the most expensive type of 
tree to buy. The branches are very unique being broad and flat like hands. 
The needles are short and point upward. Noble Firs grow in higher elevations 
at least 750 feet above sea level.

Merry Christmas,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble


> It's a type of fir tree available out here in the PNW. Very symmetric
> with firm branches.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble
>
>
> What the heck is a Noble (besides a knight in shining armour), is that
> an
> artificial tree? Those words are not spoken in my home. I have a real
> tree
> and I take it down when the last needle falls off, usually just before
> Valentines day,,,really ask my embarrassed children.
>
> If I was a Noble I might have my servants take it down a little
> earlier....
>
> Ho Ho hO
>
>
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:31 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
> Get a Noble! That's all you need to know! (grin)
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
>
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> blindkid:
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From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Dec  8 03:25:59 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:25:59 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
In-Reply-To: <493c8724.0c17400a.211c.252f@mx.google.com>
References: <493c8724.0c17400a.211c.252f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20081208032559.k7uij@panix.com>

My ex and I did the same thing with our adopted daughter Shanthi lo these many years ago (Shanthi just turned nineteen). She is blind (bilateral anophthalmia) and has developmental delays.

Mike Freeman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Washington

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\]was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2008/12/08 03:05:28
Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups

>
>
> Great beginnings Kathy! Thanks for sharing.
> 
>  
>  
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kathy B
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:08 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Speaking of stores...ddone thing I started doing a few months ago with my 2
> 1/2 yr old was putting her in the basket part of the cart when I grocery
> shop.  I just pile all of the groceries up on her.  I have taught her more
> of what is in the store and what things feel like this way than I ever could
> be just talking about what's in the store.  She also loves handing me things
> to put one the conveyor belt when we are checking out so it saves
> time......sometimes. :were  I thought maybe someone else might find this
> helpful.  Happy shopping.
> Kathy
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 2:42:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Dear Colleen,
> I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
> surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
> st... 
> 
> What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
> anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
> Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
> tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
> 10 items or less...ggI don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
> I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
> to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and More lesson
> In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and More certification to
> teach x...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
> be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
> opportunities to use and practice the "skill".
> 
> That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
> our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
> are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
> don't think about it as a teaching moment.
> 
> But this rush to make things easier for u-comoften makes things harder for
> our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
> commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
> same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
> think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
> your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
> the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
> varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
> conscious effort and make it a lifestyle-comnot mere lessons now and then.
> 
> I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
> a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
> long run it will save you to put effort into this now.
> 
> 
> 
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Colleen:
> 
> You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
> line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
> I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
> was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
> when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
> (Ah, mischief)
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> 
> Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
> trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
> store beginning in early in elementary.
> 
> Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
> teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
> have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
> of year) and on, and on!
> 
> We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
> that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
> enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
> lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
> aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
> people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
> spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
> with "/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
> down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
> will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
> dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
> the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
> used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).
> 
> As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
> their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
> conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
> ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
> is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
> there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
> usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
> the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.
> 
> We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
> thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
> waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
> too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
> everyone else.
> 
> It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
> accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
> express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
> "Am I in the correct line to ___?was piece! We learn along with the 
> students every day.
> 
> As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
> time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
> can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
> beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
> the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
> maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :com) As they 
> mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
> complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.
> 
> This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
> If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.
> 
> Colleen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Carrie:
> 
> Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
> tendency on NABS-Like to make mountains out of molehills.
> 
> Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
> close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
> don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
> moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
> out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
> might be.
> 
> To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
> imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
> line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
> language! (grin)
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children]"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
> Subject: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> 
> I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
> up
> simultaneously on the student list-comthat is they bring it up and discuss
> amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
> about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
> up...
> I had thought but never added...
> I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
> I
> wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
> boot
> camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
> years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
> perfectly...
> 
> I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
> below
> and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
> taught
> x....
> 
> 
> 
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Valerie Gibson
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
> we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
> front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
> the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
> best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
> end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
> they could tell you when it's time to move up.
> 
> I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
> college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
> you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
> in line.
> 
> On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> > I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> > of the person in front of you.
> > Best,
> > Hannah
> >
> >ar ----- Original Message -----
> >arFrom: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
> >arTo: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >arDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 com0500
> >arSubject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >arWith respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> > person's
> >arshoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> > some
> >arsighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> > grab your
> >ararm without worning you!
> >
> >arSerena
> >
> >
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >arFrom: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
> >arTo: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >arSent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
> >arSubject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >
> >>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> > that had a
> >>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> > front of
> >>> me.
> >>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> > so if I
> >>> put
> >>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> > are
> >>> perfectly
> >>> fine with it.
> >>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
> >>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> > move up.
> >
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
> >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >>> Hi All,
> >>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> > we hadn't
> >>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> > if it's
> >>> your
> >>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> > that
> >>> converge
> >>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> > to ask the
> >>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> > in
> >>> unfamiliar
> >>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> > other thoughts?
> >>> Thank you,
> >>> Sarah
> >
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-like mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> > info for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> > reakblefi%40gm
> >>> ail.com
> >
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-like mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> > info for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc
> > co%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> >>_______________________________________________
> >arnabs-like mailing list
> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >arhttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >arTo unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > for nabs-l:
> >arhttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> > cious%40suddenlink.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-like mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.
> com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-like mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai
> l.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blkid:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> blkid:
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> com
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> blkid:
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> ail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blkid:
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> ._com
> 
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
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> blkid:
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> 
> 
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From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec  8 05:09:57 2008
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:09:57 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Holiday Decorating Blind
References: <493c7234.1e3e400a.1f41.15a5@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c958f3$3850b3c0$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Carrie and listers,

    You could also try Frasier. Glad there is someone else who enjoys having 
real Christmas trees besides us. We bought a 7-foot Frasier Fir tree last 
week and finished decorating it yesterday evening before sitting down to 
watch "It's a Wonderful Life."

    Frasier Fir Trees remind me of the Balsam Firs we would buy when I lived 
in Massachusetts. Both trees have short very tight needles. I like running 
my hands through the branches and feeling them brush against my palms. I 
often tell Mary that I enjoy, "Petting the t5ree." Perhaps it's a way to 
connect with Christmases past in  what I call my "Old Country."

 If you get them as fresh as possible they'll last quite a while. I've heard 
of people keeping live Christmas Trees up well in to the new year; even here 
in South Texas.

    Our tree is so fresh that we needed to let it set up for two nights 
before it was ready to take lights. Mary and I do all of our own Christmas 
decorating. Once the tree or decorations arrive here we take over and put 
them up ourselves. Parents don't be afraid to involve your blind children in 
holiday decorating activities. Mom
encouraged me to assist with putting up the tree when I was very young 
around 4 or 5 years old to be exact. Happy decorating and may you all have a 
blessed holiday season.

Peter Donahue




From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec  8 05:15:34 2008
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:15:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Noble
References: <493c7234.1e3e400a.1f41.15a5@mx.google.com>
	<BF0BF5C7800F45BDAFC3C6F74288CDBD@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <006101c958f4$00642f40$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Mike and listers,

    We can get Nobles here too along with Frasier and Douglas Firs, Scotch 
Pine, Italian Stone Pine, Colorado Blue Spruce, (A veritable pincushion), 
and a few others that escape my mind at the moment. I looked for Balsam 
Firs, but can't find them anywhere hence the Frasier fills its place quite 
nicely in our home at Christmas.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble


It's a type of fir tree available out here in the PNW. Very symmetric
with firm branches.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble


What the heck is a Noble (besides a knight in shining armour), is that
an
artificial tree? Those words are not spoken in my home. I have a real
tree
and I take it down when the last needle falls off, usually just before
Valentines day,,,really ask my embarrassed children.

If I was a Noble I might have my servants take it down a little
earlier....

Ho Ho hO



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Get a Noble! That's all you need to know! (grin)

Mike



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From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Dec  8 06:04:21 2008
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 00:04:21 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod
In-Reply-To: <CFA6806A33244D0394CD98D82665476A@andysallyhome>
References: <OF172ABBB9.AD19E0AA-ON88257518.005C91A8-88257518.005D749E@sce.com>
	<CFA6806A33244D0394CD98D82665476A@andysallyhome>
Message-ID: <auto-000077885356@mailfront2.g2host.com>

It doesn't work with the Shuffle.  It has to be a Nano, fourth generation.

Dave

At 06:09 PM 12/7/2008, you wrote:
>David just won an iPod shuffle and was all excited to use the "new, 
>accessible iTunes with JAWS" but wasn't able to make it work.  I 
>haven't tried looking at it myself yet.
>
>Sally Thomas
>----- Original Message ----- From: <Barbara.Mathews at sce.com>
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:00 AM
>Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod
>
>
>>
>>Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or
>>using the new talking iPod?
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/andysally%40comcast.net
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1834 - Release Date: 
>12/6/2008 4:55 PM
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1835 - Release Date: 
>12/7/2008 4:56 PM




From pmcguire at knology.net  Mon Dec  8 08:02:08 2008
From: pmcguire at knology.net (Penny McGuire)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 03:02:08 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod
References: <OF172ABBB9.AD19E0AA-ON88257518.005C91A8-88257518.005D749E@sce.com>
Message-ID: <EFB29CB7DCF049FC911494226A199D0C@owner3aeecfe4a>

As parents of blind children, we are all truly amazed at how our kids figure 
things out.  With that being said, we bought Chandler (10 years old with 
slight CP on the right side) a Nano I Pod for Valentines thniking it would 
be a great way to store all of her audiobooks.  To our surprise, she uses it 
way more for music than stories!!!!  I bet she has over 300 songs on it and 
some how with the clicks she can find EXACTLY what she is looking for 
virtually with NO problems!!!!  Amazing!  She gets mad at her classmates who 
put it on shuffle and so after showing her a time or two, she figured it 
out!!!!!  With all that being said, keep in mind that your child may be fine 
with a regular IPOD if you don't hear what you hope to about the talking 
technology!!

Penny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Barbara.Mathews at sce.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod


>
> Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or
> using the new talking iPod?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/pmcguire%40knology.net
> 




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 12:45:46 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 06:45:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Noble
In-Reply-To: <006101c958f4$00642f40$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <493d1701.062a400a.1d93.21ba@mx.google.com>

Thanks for all the info on Nobles guys. Can't get one here but they sound
wonderful. We got a 10 ft balsam (our ceiling is 10 ft.) Have to cut 6
inches of the top to fit the star. I am very happy with it.
Many years we have cut down our own, no time this year...
And really the needles stay on well, I am typically mid January and while it
is very dry, the needles are really still on...
Yes bring in the kids to decorate, and chop one down if you can...Thanks
Peter.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:16 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble

Hello Mike and listers,

    We can get Nobles here too along with Frasier and Douglas Firs, Scotch 
Pine, Italian Stone Pine, Colorado Blue Spruce, (A veritable pincushion), 
and a few others that escape my mind at the moment. I looked for Balsam 
Firs, but can't find them anywhere hence the Frasier fills its place quite 
nicely in our home at Christmas.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble


It's a type of fir tree available out here in the PNW. Very symmetric
with firm branches.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Noble


What the heck is a Noble (besides a knight in shining armour), is that
an
artificial tree? Those words are not spoken in my home. I have a real
tree
and I take it down when the last needle falls off, usually just before
Valentines day,,,really ask my embarrassed children.

If I was a Noble I might have my servants take it down a little
earlier....

Ho Ho hO



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:31 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Get a Noble! That's all you need to know! (grin)

Mike



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blindkid:
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
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bal.net 


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ail.com




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 12:53:03 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 06:53:03 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Bringing Home the Christmas Tree-For those who do...
Message-ID: <493d18b7.1138400a.44f5.ffffe8af@mx.google.com>

Here is an oldie but goodie about bringing home the Christmas Tree for your
holiday pleasure:

 

 <http://nfb.org/legacy/contactus.htm> Contact Us

 <http://nfb.org/legacy/gift.htm> Support Us

 <http://nfb.org/legacy/index.htm> Logo link to NFB home

www.nfb.org

 


BRINGING HOME THE CHRISTMAS TREE


by Marc Maurer

Marc Maurer is a husband and a father. He is an attorney. He is also blind.
He is a man of determination, sensitivity, integrity, and hope. I am glad he
is all of these things, for he is also President of the National Federation
of the Blind. To a great extent the well-being of future generations of
blind people depends upon the National Federation of the Blind and the
personal qualities of its leadership. With Marc Maurer leading the
organization I am content to have it so. Read "Bringing Home the Christmas
Tree," and I think you'll agree with me. Christmas was for me the most
wonderful holiday of the year when I was a boy. There were many small
surprises and much happiness.

Thanksgiving was memorable because I was able to come home from the school
for the blind which I attended for the first five years of grade school to
be with my family. There was always an enormous basket of fresh fruit as
well as a huge bowl of nuts to be cracked and eaten. But the best part about
Thanksgiving was that it signified the beginning of the Christmas season.
Before Thanksgiving, it was simply autumn. After Thanksgiving, Christmas was
on its way.

My Christmas problem was to find a way to obtain suitable gifts for my
family and friends. My allowance the weekly grant from my father just was
not large enough to meet all of the demands. When I was small, it was a
nickel. By the time I had reached high school, it had grown to the grand sum
of a dollar. When I was in the ninth grade (or maybe it was the tenth), I
persuaded the newspaper to put me on as the only blind paper boy in town.
Every morning all three hundred sixty-five days of the year I rose at five
o'clock to collect my papers, deliver them, and walk home. The distance
covered in the round trip was a little over two miles. 

I liked the walk especially in the midst of a snow storm. When the wind was
blowing, and the snow was falling, I felt humble. It seemed to me that God
was reminding us that He had created the world and everything in it.

The paper route brought in a little extra money as I remember it, between
four and five dollars a week. The increase in my financial well-being seemed
dramatic. During the summers I could mow lawns or do other odd jobs. One
time I was hired at a dollar an hour to roof a garage. The work was
completed in twenty-nine hours. But these summertime activities didn't help
at Christmas.

It was all right to begin thinking about Christmas the day after
Thanksgiving. However, planning for the most important holiday of the year
before the season arrived was out of the question. In my home town Christmas
decorations were hung in the streets before Thanksgiving, but our family
ignored them until the proper time. 

The Christmas season was special and had to be saved until using it was
appropriate. This meant that I could not purchase Christmas presents before
Thanksgiving. Therefore, I had available only those resources which could be
mustered between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Sometimes the money ran out.
Nevertheless, gifts must be procured. But, buying them was not essential.
They could be manufactured, and sometimes they were.

One year I fashioned a wooden rifle for one of my brothers. Another time I
baked homemade Christmas rolls for a friend around the corner. Bread making
was a skill I acquired early. And I was not the only one in my family who
turned lovingly to handicrafts for the Christmas season. One of my most
treasured Christmas presents was a hand-made wooden desk designed and built
by my father. I used it for almost ten years. Part of the delight of the
Christmas season was that many unusual things occurred. Visiting neighbors,
friends, and relatives came unexpectedly; mysterious packages arrived with
contents that must remain secret until the great day; plates of goodies were
presented that had been made in a kitchen whose customs were not the same as
our own. The cookies and cakes were not the same as the familiar standbys I
had come to know so well, and some of them were extraordinarily good. 

I was the second of six children and the only member of the family who was
blind. My sister and my four brothers attended school in our home town. From
the time I was six years old until I was eleven, I attended the school for
the blind. At Christmas for two weeks or a little more we who were students
would say goodbye to the routine at this residential school. 

At the school for the blind the wake-up bell rang at 6:30 in the morning. By
6:55 we were expected to be dressed with our faces washed and our teeth
brushed. At that time, we lined up to march from the dormitory to the dining
hall for breakfast. Breakfast began at 7:00 and lasted half an hour. Between
7:30 and 8:00, we were expected to clean our rooms and make our beds. My
roommate and I divided up the cleaning chores. I dusted the furniture while
he dusted the floor. Classes began at 8:00 and continued until noon. We
marched in line to lunch, which also lasted half an hour. After lunch we
were free to play on the playground for a few minutes. Classes in the
afternoon started at 1:00 and finished at 4:00. One period each day was
devoted to gym class. After the 4:00 o'clock adjournment of classes we were
free to play until we marched to the dining hall at 5:25. After supper there
was an hour of mandatory study hall. Then for an hour we could read or play
or do as we pleased. By 8:30 all students were supposed to be in their
rooms, and at 8:45 the bell rang for lights out. 

Two nights a week at the school for the blind there were special events. On
Wednesdays and Saturdays we were expected to bathe, and (before bath time)
we were permitted to go to the basement of the dormitory for "snack bar."
Snack bar was the name for the student-run store. At the snack bar we could
buy candy bars, ice cream bars, and a limited selection of penny candy. A
prepackaged ice cream cone that had been dipped in chocolate and nuts (we
called it a drumstick) cost fifteen cents. I didn't have fifteen cents very
often, so my visits to the snack bar were infrequent.

On Saturday the schedule for meals was the same as it was for the rest of
the week, but after our rooms had been cleaned and our shoes were polished,
the remainder of the day was free. On Sunday we were expected to dress in
our Sunday clothes, and we were then sent to church.

When the Christmas holidays came, all of this changed. At home there was no
scheduled time to wake up, no pre-set moment for breakfast, no routine for
dusting the furniture and making the bed. Furthermore, there were family
members to play with, and there were the exciting and mysterious Christmas
activities. In the kitchen there were homemade cookies and candies. The
aroma of varnish and wood shavings emanated from my Dad's shop in the
basement. There were usually sewing and knitting projects that had to be
finished late at night so they would be ready for Christmas. 

The days are short in December, and in the midwest, where I grew up, they
are often snowy and cold. When school was out, we would tramp the fields and
woods around our town and find places to use the toboggan that our parents
gave us one Christmas. The cold felt good, especially at the end of the day
when we got home to sit by the fire. And the pungent aroma of clove and
cinnamon that came drifting from the kitchen was a mouth-watering promise of
the cakes, the pies, or the cinnamon rolls that could be found there. One
Christmas I read a story about the Yule Log the large chunk of timber which
in English legend is traditionally set ablaze on Christmas Eve to initiate
festivities for the celebration of the holiday. I decided to cut such a log.
With an old handsaw we found, I set out to bring home the largest piece of a
tree that would fit in the fireplace. I measured the opening with a piece of
stick and marked the length by cutting a nick with the edge of my knife. The
saw was old and dull; the log was heavy, thick, and damp. It seemed to me
that the job of cutting it would take forever. When the cut was finally
complete, I hefted my prize and dragged it home. I rolled it into the
fireplace and stuffed as much kindling around it as I could cram into the
opening. Our Yule Log burned for many hours and brought warmth and
cheeriness to the hearth. Then there was the Christmas tree. 

In our family we all went together to get the tree. We would pile into the
old 1954 Plymouth to go hunting in the Christmas tree lots for just the
right one. The various members of the family had different objectives. Dad
wanted the tree to be cheap affordable if you want the polite word. Mom
wanted it to be full and pretty. We kids wanted it to be big. When we
arrived at the Christmas tree lot, the kids would spread out in all
directions, hunting through the trees. Every few seconds somebody would yell
that the perfect specimen had been located. The whole family would come to
admire it, and I would be asked to examine it with my hands to see what I
thought. The spruce trees were my favorite, the ones with the little short
needles and the teeny little pine cones.

When the best of the trees had been discovered, the price negotiations
began. This was my father's responsibility. A good tree was one that had
plenty of branches, no holes, a height of at least nine feet, no bare spots,
and a nice Christmas tree shape. Such a tree was acceptable, but it could be
made much better if my father got a "deal." If the asking price for the tree
could be reduced by a third or a half, our Christmas tree was one of the
best. 

We would climb back into the old Plymouth and lean out the windows so Dad
could hand us the prized possession. We would drive home slowly, freezing
our hands and ears clutching tightly to the tree, which we held pressed to
the side of the car. With four or five of us grasping the trunk, the
branches of the tree filled the windows on the driver's side of the car. It
wasn't easy to see on our side, so we honked the horn a lot at intersections
on the way home. 

When we arrived home, it was my father's job to set up the tree. Because of
a number of disasters (there is a particularly unfortunate Christmas morning
that I remember when the tree fell over in the middle of a number of
packages) it became the custom in our house to anchor the tree with a cord
to at least two separate brackets on the wall. 

Then it was time to decorate. This was Mom's special area of interest and
talent. She directed all of us in the process and added the finishing
touches herself. When the balls were hung, the tinsel meticulously arranged,
and the lights lit, the tree changed the living room from a nice place to be
to the center of enchantment. 

As I remember the Christmases of my growing up years, it is clear to me that
my blindness was not a major ingredient. Christmas memories remind me of
home and of family members who care for one another. Gentleness, admiration,
hope, and faith of such as these are memorable Christmases made. I did not
know, when I was a student at the school for the blind, what my own life
could bring. However, as I prepare for Christmas this year, I am reminded of
those joyful experiences of long ago. I now have a family of my own. One of
the important ceremonies in our household is the procurement of the
Christmas tree.

My son David (a third-grader) asked me to help him build a Christmas present
for his Mom. Together we are cutting the wood and fitting the pieces. The
staining and finishing must be accomplished before the festive day. The
aroma of varnish will mingle this year with the smells of cinnamon and
chocolate as we prepare for the giving of gifts. 

Perhaps the joy of the season is even greater because there were many times
when I wondered if it would be available to me. Can blind people have good
jobs and raise families? These are questions which come inevitably to the
mind of a blind student growing up. They demand answers, but information is
scarce, and sometimes the messages are discouraging.

When I came to be a part of the National Federation of the Blind in 1969, I
met caring people who were willing to give me the benefit of their knowledge
and experience. I met those who had hope and faith. I came to be a part of
an organization of individuals who cared for one another. 

The responsiveness, the support, the warmth, and the caring I found in the
National Federation of the Blind are reminiscent of the gentleness, the
faith, and the hope I had come to associate with the Christmas season. I
have known the commitment of the National Federation of the Blind for almost
a quarter of a century. In that time many thousands of blind people have
been given encouragement and support. Many Yule Logs have been cut, and many
trees decorated. A number of blind children have come to be blind adults
with children of their own. The blindness, which might have prevented a full
life, was not permitted to interfere. The Christmases for those blind people
have been warm, hearty, hopeful celebrations. We are planning for many more.


 

 

 

 

Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc

 

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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 14:30:12 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:30:12 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [Nopbc-board] NFB Youth Slam
Message-ID: <493d2f7a.1917400a.1f33.6ab2@mx.google.com>

In case you have not received this yet...FYI

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nopbc-board-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nopbc-board-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Zakhnini,Karen (by way of David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:38 PM
To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Nopbc-board] NFB Youth Slam

The National Federation of the Blind Youth Slam A 2009 STEM Leadership
Academy

Observe! Discover! Evolve!

Launch rockets, perform astronomy, examine new technology, learn 
about engineering, solve crimes like on CSI, design solutions for the 
environment, meet new friends from all over the United States, play 
goal ball, watch movies, dance, make podcasts, meet blind role 
models, and experience many other adventures at the NFB Youth Slam!

 From July 26-August 1, 2009, two hundred blind and low vision high 
school students will stay at the University of Maryland, College 
Park, to be mentored by blind role models during fun and challenging 
activities meant to build confidence, expand leadership and advocacy 
skills, and increase science literacy. Participants will also attend 
various social events as well as workshops on topics such as 
leadership, career preparation, and advocacy. The NFB Youth Slam will 
culminate in an inspiring rally in Washington DC!

Those interested in participating as students or mentors should 
complete an application by March 1, 2009. After an initial screening 
process, eligible students will be accepted into the program through 
random selection. Students and mentors need not have a strong 
interest in science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM) in order 
to participate, enjoy, and benefit from this academy.

If you are interested in being a student or mentor participant or if 
you'd like to learn more about the NFB Youth Slam visit 
<http://www.blindscience.org/ncbys/youth_slam.asp>http://www.blindscience.or
g/ncbys/youth_slam.asp.

Send questions about the NFB Youth Slam to youthslam at nfb.org.




Karen C. Zakhnini
Education Project Manager
Jernigan Institute
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

Phone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2293
Fax: (410) 659-5129

Imagine a Future Full of Opportunity...





_______________________________________________
Nopbc-board mailing list
Nopbc-board at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nopbc-board_nfbnet.org




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 15:20:15 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:20:15 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <3BA97EC9-8964-4BFA-BA49-8A921734E7D4@somazen.com>
Message-ID: <493d3b36.1138400a.44f5.429c@mx.google.com>

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,  
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you  
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra  
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and  
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a  
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,  
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective  
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for  
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in  
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of  
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been  
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of  
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to  
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being  
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her  
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and  
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement  
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things  
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I  
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am  
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It  
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some  
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to  
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations  
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.  
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a  
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things  
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your  
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but  
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to  
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the  
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their  
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if  
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk  
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went  
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults  
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and  
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,  
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the  
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been  
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any  
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just  
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be  
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can  
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know  
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were  
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how  
slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from  
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they  
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been  
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if  
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There  
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in  
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and  
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that  
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn  
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child  
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him  
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use  
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was  
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.  
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and  
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which  
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with  
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us  
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year. It's  
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up  
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to  
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print  
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me  
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as  
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my  
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are  
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food  
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does  
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some  
help!

Leah in TX



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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 15:47:31 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:47:31 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW:Tactile graphic maker for sale
Message-ID: <493d4196.1b17400a.1f1e.ffffa901@mx.google.com>

I am forwarding this in case someone can benefit. It may go fast, I do not
have personal experience with the maker myself, maybe others can comment on
the usefulness-ease of it. Robert?for one?

 

Anyway contact Susan directly if you are interested. 

 

Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc

  _____  

From: Sdwctd at aol.com [mailto:Sdwctd at aol.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:37 AM
To: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
Subject: Re: Equipment for sale

 

Thank you so much.

 

A Pictures-in-a-Flash (or P.I.A.F) is a tactile graphics maker.  It produces
graphics using heat sensitive paper.  It is great for children, students,
and adults.  You can draw on the paper itself or sometimes it is better to
actually copy it onto the heat sensitive paper using a copy machine.  It
takes seconds to run the paper through the PIAF and you have your tactile
graphic.  

 

It is in excellent condition and I am asking $500.00.

 

Susan Wallace

(336) 307-2436 or email sdwctd at aol.com

 





  _____  

Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in
one place. Try
<http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000
010>  it now.



From trising at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec  8 16:33:11 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:33:11 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Holiday Decorating Blind
References: <493c7234.1e3e400a.1f41.15a5@mx.google.com>
	<001f01c958f3$3850b3c0$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <CE0CBB69BAC745D5957FE98F36D44591@nickf1758c2c9d>

I love Frasier trees. This is what my parents get, and we all go as a family 
to cut it down the day after Thanksgiving. I have to have an artificial 
though, as the apartment complex will not allow real trees. I love to smell 
the pine smell of the Frasier and to feel the soft needles. Mom has always 
let me help put ornaments on, but she is always giving sighted instructions. 
She does not want two of the same color near each other or ornaments too 
close together. Someone helps us put up our tree and string the lights. 
Then, we do our own ornaments. I would love to put up a tree with other 
blind adults to see how they do it completely independently. 




From mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 16:37:43 2008
From: mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com (Mindy Lipsey)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <493d3b36.1138400a.44f5.429c@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <744195.85413.qm@web31605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car, but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,  
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you  
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra  
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and  
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a  
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,  
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective  
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for  
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in  
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of  
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been  
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of  
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to  
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being  
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her  
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and  
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement  
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things  
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I  
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am  
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It  
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some  
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to  
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations  
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.  
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a  
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things  
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your  
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but  
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to  
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the  
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their  
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if  
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk  
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went  
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults  
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and  
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,  
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the  
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been  
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any  
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just  
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be  
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can  
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know  
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were  
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how
 
slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from  
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they  
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been  
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if  
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There  
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in  
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and  
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that  
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn  
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child  
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him  
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use  
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was  
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.  
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and  
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which  
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with  
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us  
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's  
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up  
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to  
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print  
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me  
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as  
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my  
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are  
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food  
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does  
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some  
help!

Leah in TX



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blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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ail.com


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From tjmaries at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:01:49 2008
From: tjmaries at yahoo.com (T. J.)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:01:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
References: <744195.85413.qm@web31605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <654663.64487.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I have done this lots of times.? Thought I saw something that when felt turned out to not be what I thought.? Happens with vehicles too, I think my path is clear and it sometimes isn't.? Don't use a cane because my parents don't think I'm blind at all. I have some vision but it too is not reliable and low.? My central and perifieral vision is affected.

T. J.


________________________________
From: Mindy Lipsey <mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 8:37:43 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car, but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,? 
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you? 
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra? 
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and? 
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a? 
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,? 
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective? 
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for? 
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in? 
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of? 
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been? 
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of? 
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to? 
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being? 
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her? 
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and? 
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement? 
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things? 
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I? 
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am? 
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It? 
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some? 
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to? 
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations? 
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.? 
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a? 
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things? 
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your? 
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but? 
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to? 
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the? 
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their? 
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if? 
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk? 
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went? 
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults? 
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and? 
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,? 
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the? 
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been? 
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any? 
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just? 
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be? 
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can? 
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know? 
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were? 
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how

slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from? 
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they? 
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been? 
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if? 
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There? 
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in? 
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and? 
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that? 
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn? 
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child? 
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him? 
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use? 
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was? 
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.? 
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and? 
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which? 
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with? 
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us? 
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's? 
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up? 
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to? 
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print? 
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me? 
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as? 
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my? 
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are? 
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food? 
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does? 
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some? 
help!

Leah in TX



_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com


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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mindy_lipsey%40yahoo.com



? ? ? 
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com



      

From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 17:09:42 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:09:42 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <744195.85413.qm@web31605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493d54dd.1138400a.44f5.ffff8003@mx.google.com>

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
against their parents wishes. 

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,  
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you  
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra  
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and  
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a  
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,  
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective  
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for  
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in  
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of  
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been  
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of  
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to  
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being  
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her  
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and  
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement  
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things  
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I  
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am  
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It  
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some  
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to  
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations  
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.  
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a  
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things  
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your  
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but  
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to  
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the  
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their  
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if  
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk  
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went  
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults  
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and  
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,  
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the  
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been  
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any  
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just  
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be  
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can  
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know  
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were  
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how
 
slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from  
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they  
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been  
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if  
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There  
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in  
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and  
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that  
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn  
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child  
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him  
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use  
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was  
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.  
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and  
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which  
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with  
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us  
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's  
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up  
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to  
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print  
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me  
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as  
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my  
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are  
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food  
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does  
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some  
help!

Leah in TX



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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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ail.com


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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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oo.com



      
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blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
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ail.com




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 18:09:25 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:09:25 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <744195.85413.qm@web31605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493d62de.1138400a.44f5.ffffa7e7@mx.google.com>

Mindy,
Maybe you already are doing this or have found another method that works
with the car, but here is what we do:
I give one honk. He goes to that. Then of course anyone could also be
coincidentally honking, so as he gets real near I roll down the window and
greet, Like "hi Jordan". We have a cell# too, so often if it is like chaotic
after a football game we have a meeting spot or I call ahead when I am a
block away or even parked and say okay today I am across the street. He
doesn't get in a car until he has audible confirmation. Just for FYI In all
the years I have observed (with all the similarities and dark windows) a few
sighted High school students start to get in the wrong car too-smile. This
is good practice for confirmation and how to ask that they are getting on
the right bus someday too-smile.

For girls especially as they age--they need SOLID proactive confidence. You
would be surprised how many women traveling alone get offered rides (guys
too, but...)
 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,  
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you  
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra  
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and  
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a  
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,  
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective  
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for  
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in  
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of  
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been  
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of  
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to  
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being  
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her  
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and  
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement  
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things  
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I  
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am  
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It  
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some  
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to  
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations  
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.  
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a  
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things  
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your  
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but  
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to  
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the  
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their  
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if  
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk  
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went  
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults  
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and  
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,  
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the  
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been  
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any  
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just  
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be  
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can  
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know  
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were  
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how
 
slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from  
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they  
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been  
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if  
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There  
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in  
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and  
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that  
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn  
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child  
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him  
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use  
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was  
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.  
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and  
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which  
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with  
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us  
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's  
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up  
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to  
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print  
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me  
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as  
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my  
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are  
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food  
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does  
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some  
help!

Leah in TX



_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mindy_lipsey%40yah
oo.com



      
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From tjmaries at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 21:14:11 2008
From: tjmaries at yahoo.com (T. J.)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:14:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
References: <493d54dd.1138400a.44f5.ffff8003@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <49478.77023.qm@web50508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I am? 25.? 4 years out of high school.? Still live with my parents (for the most part this situation is ideal).? But my parents just don't see that I need a cane.? But I do also have a condition called hydrocephalus that I was born with. It is treated with a shunt. Due to the hydro I have some?developemental disabilities.? It is because of my hydro that my vision is impaired.? I can see 20/20 if the thing I am looking at is?6 inches from my nose (as this is the point my 2 eyes start working together).? Other than that I see 20/200 out of the left eye and 20/120 out of the right (at any point further than 6 inches from my nose).? Also I have no depth perception what-so-ever.???

T. J.




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 9:09:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
against their parents wishes. 



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,? 
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you? 
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra? 
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and? 
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a? 
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,? 
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective? 
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for? 
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in? 
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of? 
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been? 
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of? 
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to? 
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being? 
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her? 
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and? 
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement? 
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things? 
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I? 
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am? 
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It? 
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some? 
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to? 
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations? 
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.? 
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a? 
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things? 
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your? 
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but? 
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to? 
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the? 
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their? 
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if? 
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk? 
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went? 
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults? 
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and? 
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,? 
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the? 
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been? 
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any? 
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just? 
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be? 
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can? 
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know? 
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were? 
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how

slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from? 
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they? 
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been? 
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if? 
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There? 
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in? 
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and? 
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that? 
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn? 
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child? 
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him? 
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use? 
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was? 
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.? 
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and? 
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which? 
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with? 
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us? 
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's? 
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up? 
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to? 
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print? 
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me? 
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as? 
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my? 
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are? 
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food? 
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does? 
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some? 
help!

Leah in TX



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From carol_castellano at verizon.net  Mon Dec  8 22:34:36 2008
From: carol_castellano at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:34:36 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] books and school
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS1C7477B20053262B94487EB020@phx.gbl>
References: <49372b42.102b400a.40b8.fffff0b6@mx.google.com>
	<723747.63312.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<829576.39211.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<BAY113-DS48F8854A5B07E82FF7962EB020@phx.gbl>
	<113057.63227.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<BAY113-DS1C7477B20053262B94487EB020@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081208223526.7D251213B81@zcs.tcnj.edu>

POBC-NJ sells them if you'd like to buy one.  They cost $5.00.  Here 
is the ordering info.

Make the check out to POBC-NJ.  Mail it to:
POBC-NJ
23 Alexander Ave
Madison NJ 07940

Carol

At 03:24 PM 12/4/2008, you wrote:
>The wire screen used in screen doors.  They probably have it at a 
>hardware store.
>Barbara
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:02 PM
>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school
>
>>What do you mea by "screen"? Like, the soft screen on winows?
>>
>>T. J.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>>From: Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com>
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind 
>>children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:42:29 AM
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school
>>
>>T.J.
>>It's just a piece of screen taped to a piece of thin particle 
>>board. Real simple to make.
>>Barbara
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------
>>From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:49 AM
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] books and school
>>
>>>Debby, Can you tell me how the screen board was made? It sounds 
>>>like siomething I need.
>>>
>>>T. J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: Debby B <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind 
>>>children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:35:03 AM
>>>Subject: [blindkid] books and school
>>>
>>>This happened a lot at the beginning of the year. Winona in tears, 
>>>"I need my book", the paras adamant "I am NOT going down there", 
>>>the teacher "it's okay, not important today." Me insisting they 
>>>keep the current volume, the next one, and any the teacher 
>>>anticipates skipping to. After 3 meetings with everyone that 
>>>problem has mostly resolved. Each class is only 50 minutes, with 3 
>>>minutes between. Most classes are on the same upstairs hall, 
>>>resource room is down stairs in another wing. Old school, small 
>>>rooms. By the time Winona went down, found the needed book (maybe 
>>>in a box?), and got back to class she would have missed the class.
>>>
>>>Here's another goodie that will be brought up at Monday's meeting. 
>>>Winona provided her own protractor, wikki stiks, screen board, 
>>>crayons, etc. for math yesterday as she knew what was coming up 
>>>and figured the TVI wouldn't have it. Sure enough, she told Winona 
>>>there was no protractor she could use. Volia! Winona pulled it 
>>>out. "Sorry Winona, there's no way for you to color in this pie 
>>>graph. Volia! Winona pulled out her screen board and crayons. I 
>>>was so proud of Winona for thinking ahead and being prepared. 
>>>Otherwise, she would have been simply sitting and listening to 
>>>this math lesson.
>>>
>>>Science teacher no longer discusses things with the TVI, she goes 
>>>straight to Winona to work things out.
>>>
>>>Another item on the agenda for Monday: Winona's "Braille time" was 
>>>finally spent doing something other than this ridiculous mPower 
>>>"testing" and chatting. Yesterday she was able to Braille her own 
>>>worksheet, since the TVI "had no time" to do it.
>>>
>>>Our middle schools send a text home with each student, then they 
>>>all share the school text. Works out great because there is no 
>>>more "I left my book at school" excuse! They also don't allow 
>>>backpacks, although our blind kids are allowed since they're 
>>>lugging around more stuff.
>>>
>>>Oh, and I must share an almost funny, which will also be brought 
>>>up at the meeting! The TVI keeps telling all 3 blind kids that 
>>>there is no way to hook the mPower to a computer for the teacher 
>>>to see their work. We all know there is. Tuesday I substituted in 
>>>an elementary class which includes our elementary blind student. 
>>>It was really interesting to be on the teacher end of the 
>>>spectrum. Plus, I got to see the other TVI in action, which 
>>>included plugging the student's mPower into the computer so that I 
>>>could see her work! Ah ha! Proof that it can be done and is being 
>>>done in our own county!
>>>
>>>Debby
>>>bwbddl at yahoo.com
>>>www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind 
>>>children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:58:20 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [blindkid] storage solutions
>>>
>>>Dear Debby-
>>>
>>>Many times, many times, she is without a book for this reason? I know things
>>>have been ridiculous, and this tops the cake...this is unacceptable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Winona is in middle school. Jordan had a resource room that was some
>>>distance, if he needed a volume change he had a permanent hall pass (or
>>>needed to print something from his BrailleNote) to go to the resource room.
>>>He was always very responsible and used his time wisely. I think Winona has
>>>the same kind of character.
>>>
>>>Another thing that has been done (the resource room is only so big)is to
>>>have a rolling book cart in a room with the whole book in there, one in
>>>math, one in science, one in social, etc. This has worked really well. (All
>>>these things were/are in his IEP (his IEP accommodations are ridiculous like
>>>six pages-but IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN down-it always failed somewhere-smile)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>It helps develop responsibility too, like anyone else if he forgot a volume
>>>or his book then he was stuck or needed to call a classmate. It was also his
>>>responsibility to keep aware of what was coming next, which volume he might
>>>need. This has really helped his ability to self organize and plan ahead.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Plan Ahead" and "Flexibility" are two essentials blind people can't be
>>>caught without...they are good for everyone, but really important for the
>>>blind student or employee to succeed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I am sad to say I think we had a high of 30 and that may be the warmest air
>>>we see this week. I'll be there shortly.smile. 45? Don't make me laugh. Even
>>>my garage door has been frozen for two days. Why do things always break just
>>>when you are about to spend Christmas money? Smile..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Carrie Gilmer, President
>>>
>>>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>>
>>>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>>
>>>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>>
>>>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>>
>>>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>for blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/tjmaries%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindkid mailing list
>>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>for blindkid:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindkid mailing list
>>blindkid at nfbnet.org
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>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for blindkid:
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>blindkid mailing list
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>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for blindkid:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>
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>for blindkid:
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From kassyp36 at msn.com  Mon Dec  8 22:39:23 2008
From: kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne )
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:39:23 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
Message-ID: <COL109-DS231D19B7653BA208AD2400C3FD0@phx.gbl>

Mindy, 

I am a blind adult with some remaining vision.  I can absolutely agree with the examples you cited.  I used my "vision" a lot more than I should have when I was a kid, and sometimes I still do.  I have the skills now to realize that I know when I should and when I shouldn't use it.  I have the other skills so that I don't have to use my faulty vision all the time.  I am sure glad Shawn will honk when he sees me coming.  There are too many minivans in Utah.  Yes, Carrie, you should compile all this into an article or something.  

Kasondra Payne  

-----Original Message-----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:35 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

 And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
 use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
 there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
 against their parents wishes.

 ?
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
 Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
 To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

 I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
 is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
 usually doesn't know he's wrong.
 ?
 I have?some examples to share:
 ?
 I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
 doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
 down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
 broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
 seriously cut himself.
 ?
 I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
 from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
 pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
 gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
 exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
 park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
 but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
 if it wasn't mine.
 ?
 Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
 Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
 Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
 see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
 the intersection by that time.
 ?
 These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
 see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
 thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
 childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
 ?
 Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
 about!


 Mindy Lipsey
 Mediaedge:cia
 410-530-5555
 9207 Harvest Rush Road
 Owings Mills, MD? 21117

 ?

 --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

 From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
 To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
 <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
 Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

 Dear Leah,
 What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
 forward to hearing much more from you!

 I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
 of your post...

 [Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
 close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

 This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
 TVI's. It
 can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
 child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
 "blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
 being somewhat
 useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
 wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
 CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
 too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
 he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
 awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
 car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
 a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
 important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
 "method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

 That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
 kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
 my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
 vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
 don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
 expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
 it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
 they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
 to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
 early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
 recall...

 His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
 dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
 Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
 on
 his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
 13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
 a lesson that he will never forget.

 Sincerely,
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Leah
 Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
 To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

 Doreen,

 I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,?
 I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

 Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you?
 are going through that came through the NFB:

 -reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra?
 articles provided with it upon request
 -reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and?
 decisions faced by people who have some vision
 -going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
 -walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

 Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a?
 blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,?
 and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective?
 on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for?
 several months and between her expertise with children, interest in?
 special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of?
 blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been?
 unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of?
 toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to?
 have blind role models and she was his first.

 I totally understand about vision professionals not always being?
 experienced with the very young child.

 Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her?
 development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and?
 your hopes for her?

 It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement?
 things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things?
 yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I?
 homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am?
 homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It?
 is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some?
 services to continue through the school district forever or only up to?
 a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations?
 in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.?
 Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a?
 place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things?
 like visual impairment or other disabilities.

 You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your?
 rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but?
 overwhelming resource.

 As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to?
 consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the?
 school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their?
 canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if?
 they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk?
 somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went?
 to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults?
 who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and?
 when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,?
 but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the?
 room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been?
 reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any?
 negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just?
 there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be?
 allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can?
 provide the exact text).

 When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know?
 if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were?
 "encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how
 ?
 slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from?
 reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they?
 had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been?
 more easily learning Braille.

 For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if?
 there are no other needs.

 Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There?
 are some great stories about this in the early years articles in?
 Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and?
 it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

 I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that?
 specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn?
 about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child?
 needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him?
 learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use?
 your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was?
 ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.?
 Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and?
 print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which?
 are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with?
 a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us?
 a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
 It's?
 fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up?
 with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to?
 have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print?
 becomes too hard.

 Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me?
 were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as?
 things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my?
 dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are?
 directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food?
 boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does?
 mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

 Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some?
 help!

 Leah in TX



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From kassyp36 at msn.com  Mon Dec  8 23:03:54 2008
From: kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne )
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:03:54 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
Message-ID: <COL109-DS117E360A8B784F5684B33CC3FD0@phx.gbl>

Carrie,

We do something similar with the honking and the cell phones.  We also usually check with each other about meeting places.  We have certain established places depending on whether I am working, going to class, or something else.  Gotta go, it's finals week, and I have a review session to get to.  

Kasondra Payne

-----Original Message-----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:23 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Mindy,
 Maybe you already are doing this or have found another method that works
 with the car, but here is what we do:
 I give one honk. He goes to that. Then of course anyone could also be
 coincidentally honking, so as he gets real near I roll down the window and
 greet, Like "hi Jordan". We have a cell# too, so often if it is like chaotic
 after a football game we have a meeting spot or I call ahead when I am a
 block away or even parked and say okay today I am across the street. He
 doesn't get in a car until he has audible confirmation. Just for FYI In all
 the years I have observed (with all the similarities and dark windows) a few
 sighted High school students start to get in the wrong car too-smile. This
 is good practice for confirmation and how to ask that they are getting on
 the right bus someday too-smile.

 For girls especially as they age--they need SOLID proactive confidence. You
 would be surprised how many women traveling alone get offered rides (guys
 too, but...)
 ?
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
 Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
 To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

 I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
 is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
 usually doesn't know he's wrong.
 ?
 I have?some examples to share:
 ?
 I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
 doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
 down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
 broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
 seriously cut himself.
 ?
 I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
 from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
 pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
 gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
 exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
 park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
 but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
 if it wasn't mine.
 ?
 Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
 Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
 Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
 see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
 the intersection by that time.
 ?
 These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
 see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
 thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
 childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
 ?
 Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
 about!


 Mindy Lipsey
 Mediaedge:cia
 410-530-5555
 9207 Harvest Rush Road
 Owings Mills, MD? 21117

 ?

 --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

 From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
 To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
 <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
 Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

 Dear Leah,
 What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
 forward to hearing much more from you!

 I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
 of your post...

 [Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
 close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

 This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
 TVI's. It
 can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
 child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
 "blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
 being somewhat
 useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
 wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
 CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
 too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
 he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
 awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
 car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
 a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
 important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
 "method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

 That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
 kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
 my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
 vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
 don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
 expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
 it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
 they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
 to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
 early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
 recall...

 His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
 dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
 Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
 on
 his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
 13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
 a lesson that he will never forget.

 Sincerely,
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Leah
 Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
 To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

 Doreen,

 I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,?
 I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

 Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you?
 are going through that came through the NFB:

 -reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra?
 articles provided with it upon request
 -reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and?
 decisions faced by people who have some vision
 -going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
 -walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

 Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a?
 blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,?
 and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective?
 on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for?
 several months and between her expertise with children, interest in?
 special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of?
 blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been?
 unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of?
 toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to?
 have blind role models and she was his first.

 I totally understand about vision professionals not always being?
 experienced with the very young child.

 Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her?
 development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and?
 your hopes for her?

 It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement?
 things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things?
 yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I?
 homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am?
 homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It?
 is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some?
 services to continue through the school district forever or only up to?
 a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations?
 in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.?
 Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a?
 place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things?
 like visual impairment or other disabilities.

 You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your?
 rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but?
 overwhelming resource.

 As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to?
 consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the?
 school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their?
 canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if?
 they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk?
 somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went?
 to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults?
 who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and?
 when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,?
 but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the?
 room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been?
 reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any?
 negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just?
 there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be?
 allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can?
 provide the exact text).

 When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know?
 if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were?
 "encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how
 ?
 slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from?
 reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they?
 had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been?
 more easily learning Braille.

 For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if?
 there are no other needs.

 Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There?
 are some great stories about this in the early years articles in?
 Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and?
 it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

 I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that?
 specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn?
 about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child?
 needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him?
 learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use?
 your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was?
 ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.?
 Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and?
 print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which?
 are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with?
 a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us?
 a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
 It's?
 fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up?
 with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to?
 have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print?
 becomes too hard.

 Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me?
 were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as?
 things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my?
 dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are?
 directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food?
 boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does?
 mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

 Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some?
 help!

 Leah in TX



 _______________________________________________
 blindkid mailing list
 blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
 ail.com


 _______________________________________________
 blindkid mailing list
 blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/mindy_lipsey%40yah
 oo.com



 ?????
 _______________________________________________
 blindkid mailing list
 blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
 ail.com


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 blindkid mailing list
 blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/kassyp36%40msn.com




From kassyp36 at msn.com  Mon Dec  8 23:04:19 2008
From: kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne )
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:04:19 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
Message-ID: <COL109-DS203D096BF07E7793E514A7C3FD0@phx.gbl>

Mindy, 

I am a blind adult with some remaining vision.  I can absolutely agree with the examples you cited.  I used my "vision" a lot more than I should have when I was a kid, and sometimes I still do.  I have the skills now to realize that I know when I should and when I shouldn't use it.  I have the other skills so that I don't have to use my faulty vision all the time.  I am sure glad Shawn will honk when he sees me coming.  There are too many minivans in Utah.  Yes, Carrie, you should compile all this into an article or something.  

Kasondra Payne  

-----Original Message-----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:35 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

 And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
 use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
 there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
 against their parents wishes.

 ?
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
 Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
 To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

 I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
 is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
 usually doesn't know he's wrong.
 ?
 I have?some examples to share:
 ?
 I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
 doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
 down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
 broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
 seriously cut himself.
 ?
 I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
 from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
 pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
 gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
 exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
 park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
 but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
 if it wasn't mine.
 ?
 Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
 Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
 Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
 see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
 the intersection by that time.
 ?
 These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
 see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
 thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
 childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
 ?
 Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
 about!


 Mindy Lipsey
 Mediaedge:cia
 410-530-5555
 9207 Harvest Rush Road
 Owings Mills, MD? 21117

 ?

 --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

 From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
 To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
 <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
 Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

 Dear Leah,
 What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
 forward to hearing much more from you!

 I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
 of your post...

 [Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
 close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

 This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
 TVI's. It
 can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
 child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
 "blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
 being somewhat
 useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
 wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
 CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
 too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
 he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
 awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
 car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
 a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
 important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
 "method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

 That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
 kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
 my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
 vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
 don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
 expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
 it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
 they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
 to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
 early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
 recall...

 His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
 dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
 Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
 on
 his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
 13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
 a lesson that he will never forget.

 Sincerely,
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Leah
 Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
 To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

 Doreen,

 I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,?
 I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

 Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you?
 are going through that came through the NFB:

 -reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra?
 articles provided with it upon request
 -reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and?
 decisions faced by people who have some vision
 -going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
 -walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

 Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a?
 blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,?
 and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective?
 on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for?
 several months and between her expertise with children, interest in?
 special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of?
 blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been?
 unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of?
 toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to?
 have blind role models and she was his first.

 I totally understand about vision professionals not always being?
 experienced with the very young child.

 Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her?
 development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and?
 your hopes for her?

 It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement?
 things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things?
 yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I?
 homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am?
 homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It?
 is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some?
 services to continue through the school district forever or only up to?
 a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations?
 in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.?
 Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a?
 place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things?
 like visual impairment or other disabilities.

 You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your?
 rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but?
 overwhelming resource.

 As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to?
 consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the?
 school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their?
 canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if?
 they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk?
 somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went?
 to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults?
 who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and?
 when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,?
 but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the?
 room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been?
 reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any?
 negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just?
 there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be?
 allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can?
 provide the exact text).

 When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know?
 if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were?
 "encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how
 ?
 slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from?
 reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they?
 had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been?
 more easily learning Braille.

 For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if?
 there are no other needs.

 Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There?
 are some great stories about this in the early years articles in?
 Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and?
 it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

 I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that?
 specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn?
 about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child?
 needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him?
 learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use?
 your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was?
 ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.?
 Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and?
 print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which?
 are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with?
 a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us?
 a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
 It's?
 fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up?
 with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to?
 have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print?
 becomes too hard.

 Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me?
 were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as?
 things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my?
 dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are?
 directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food?
 boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does?
 mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

 Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some?
 help!

 Leah in TX



 _______________________________________________
 blindkid mailing list
 blindkid at nfbnet.org
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From carol_castellano at verizon.net  Mon Dec  8 23:05:05 2008
From: carol_castellano at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:05:05 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: [AERNet] East Meadow/Long Island Second Annual
 Regional BrailleChallenge
Message-ID: <20081208230510.401283375C4@zcs.tcnj.edu>

Hello,
Sharing information I received.
Carol


>Hello, friends and colleagues;
>
>Please help publicize our Second Annual Regional Braille Challenge 
>by sharing this information with others.
>
>We are inviting students from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and 
>Connecticut (and anyone else who wants to travel to Long Island to 
>participate!)
>
>East Meadow/Long Island Second Annual Regional Braille Challenge
>Saturday, January 10, 2009 (snowdate Saturday, January 24, 2009)
>8:00 AM - 3:30 PM
>W.Tresper Clarke High School
>740 Edgewood Drive
>Westbury, NY 11590
>
>For registration and/or information contact:
>Dr. Sheila Amato
><mailto:samato at eastmeadow.k12.ny.us>samato at eastmeadow.k12.ny.us or 
><mailto:brltrans at verizon.net>brltrans at verizon.net
>516-457-1990 (cell)
>
>Brochure and student registration files are attached to this email; 
>feel free to print and distribute to TVIs, parents, administrators, 
>and students.
>
>We have a dynamic guest speaker, parent and educator workshops, and 
>of course, the Braille Challenge for the students. Breakfast and 
>lunch will be provided. Please encourage students to come for the 
>day (even if their braille skills aren't great...) It will be a day 
>of fun, food, workshops, activities, prizes, music, and camaraderie. 
>You are welcome and encouraged to join us as well. If you would like 
>to volunteer to assist on this day, please let me know via return 
>email message.
>
>For further Braille Challenge information, please check out 
><http://www.braillechallenge.org>www.braillechallenge.org.
>
>Thank you for your support,
>
>Sheila Amato, Ed.D.
>Teacher of students who are blind/visually impaired
>East Meadow School District
>Long Island, NY
>
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 23:17:38 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:17:38 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <49478.77023.qm@web50508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493dab16.47c2f10a.5a5d.ffffa4f8@mx.google.com>

Dear TJ,

I worked at one of our training centers for five years, and over the course
of time we had a few students there who had shunts. It is a bad thing to
fall and hit your head and especially risky as I recall if you have a shunt.

The depth perception I think would really be helped with a cane and I think
it would be a good idea for your safety. I am sure your parents believe they
are protecting you as things are. Parents are wonderful, but they are human
and can make mistakes. I don't know the whole situation, only what you have
told me, but if you think you need a cane I think there is a good chance you
are right and maybe your parents are making a mistake.

Maybe it is time you had a good heart to heart sit down talk with your
parents. Or maybe time to try it again if you have before and failed. Maybe
you could ask some people here or on the student list for some ideas on how
to say things. 

If there is any way you can think of for me to help you please let me know.

Sincerely, 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of T. J.
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 3:14 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I am? 25.? 4 years out of high school.? Still live with my parents (for the
most part this situation is ideal).? But my parents just don't see that I
need a cane.? But I do also have a condition called hydrocephalus that I was
born with. It is treated with a shunt. Due to the hydro I have
some?developemental disabilities.? It is because of my hydro that my vision
is impaired.? I can see 20/20 if the thing I am looking at is?6 inches from
my nose (as this is the point my 2 eyes start working together).? Other than
that I see 20/200 out of the left eye and 20/120 out of the right (at any
point further than 6 inches from my nose).? Also I have no depth perception
what-so-ever.???

T. J.




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 9:09:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
against their parents wishes. 



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,? 
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you? 
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra? 
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and? 
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a? 
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,? 
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective? 
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for? 
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in? 
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of? 
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been? 
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of? 
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to? 
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being? 
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her? 
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and? 
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement? 
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things? 
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I? 
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am? 
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It? 
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some? 
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to? 
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations? 
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.? 
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a? 
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things? 
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your? 
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but? 
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to? 
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the? 
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their? 
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if? 
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk? 
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went? 
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults? 
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and? 
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,? 
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the? 
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been? 
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any? 
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just? 
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be? 
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can? 
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know? 
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were? 
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how

slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from? 
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they? 
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been? 
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if? 
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There? 
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in? 
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and? 
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that? 
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn? 
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child? 
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him? 
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use? 
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was? 
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.? 
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and? 
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which? 
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with? 
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us? 
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's? 
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up? 
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to? 
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print? 
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me? 
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as? 
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my? 
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are? 
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food? 
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does? 
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some? 
help!

Leah in TX



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From carol_castellano at verizon.net  Mon Dec  8 23:25:53 2008
From: carol_castellano at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:25:53 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
In-Reply-To: <B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>
References: <49394b69.c6c1f10a.5ae4.ffffd3fa@mx.google.com>
	<B4CAB284401F484EB13F8FFA2D4C2759@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <20081208232659.BAC923375C4@zcs.tcnj.edu>

Hey, making mountains out of molehills is in the JOB DESCRIPTION of 
being an adolescent!
Carol

At 12:55 AM 12/7/2008, you wrote:
>Carrie:
>
>Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
>tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.
>
>Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
>close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
>don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
>moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
>out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
>might be.
>
>To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
>imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
>line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
>language! (grin)
>
>Mike
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
><blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
>Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
>up
>simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
>amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
>about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
>up...
>I had thought but never added...
>I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
>I
>wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
>boot
>camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
>years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
>perfectly...
>
>I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
>below
>and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
>taught
>it....
>
>
>
>Carrie Gilmer, President
>National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>Of Valerie Gibson
>Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>Hi all,
>
>when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
>we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
>front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
>the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
>best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
>end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
>they could tell you when it's time to move up.
>
>I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
>college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
>you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
>in line.
>
>On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> > I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> > of the person in front of you.
> > Best,
> > Hannah
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
> >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> > person's
> >>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> > some
> >>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> > grab your
> >>arm without worning you!
> >
> >>Serena
> >
> >
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
> >>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >
> >>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> > that had a
> >>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> > front of
> >>> me.
> >>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> > so if I
> >>> put
> >>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> > are
> >>> perfectly
> >>> fine with it.
> >>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
> >>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> > move up.
> >
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
> >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >>> Hi All,
> >>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> > we hadn't
> >>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> > if it's
> >>> your
> >>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> > that
> >>> converge
> >>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> > to ask the
> >>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> > in
> >>> unfamiliar
> >>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> > other thoughts?
> >>> Thank you,
> >>> Sarah
> >
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> > info for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf
> > reak69%40gm
> >>> ail.com
> >
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> > info for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc
> > co%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>nabs-l mailing list
> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > for nabs-l:
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli
> > cious%40suddenlink.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> >
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>com
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>
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From mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 23:52:54 2008
From: mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com (Mindy Lipsey)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:52:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <COL109-DS117E360A8B784F5684B33CC3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <663729.66267.qm@web31604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the suggestions.? I have executed some of those ideas already, but others are new ones that I'd like to try.
I have found this adventure to be a continual learning process.? Just when I begin to feel comfortable that I can "slow down", well, that's when something new arises.? I think we call all agree that it's always something...

Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Kasondra Payne <kassyp36 at msn.com> wrote:

From: Kasondra Payne <kassyp36 at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "carrie.gilmer at gmail.com " <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>, "blindkid at nfbnet.org " <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 6:03 PM

Carrie,

We do something similar with the honking and the cell phones.  We also usually
check with each other about meeting places.  We have certain established places
depending on whether I am working, going to class, or something else.  Gotta go,
it's finals week, and I have a review session to get to.  

Kasondra Payne

-----Original Message-----
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:23 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Mindy,
 Maybe you already are doing this or have found another method that works
 with the car, but here is what we do:
 I give one honk. He goes to that. Then of course anyone could also be
 coincidentally honking, so as he gets real near I roll down the window and
 greet, Like "hi Jordan". We have a cell# too, so often if it is like
chaotic
 after a football game we have a meeting spot or I call ahead when I am a
 block away or even parked and say okay today I am across the street. He
 doesn't get in a car until he has audible confirmation. Just for FYI In
all
 the years I have observed (with all the similarities and dark windows) a few
 sighted High school students start to get in the wrong car too-smile. This
 is good practice for confirmation and how to ask that they are getting on
 the right bus someday too-smile.

 For girls especially as they age--they need SOLID proactive confidence. You
 would be surprised how many women traveling alone get offered rides (guys
 too, but...)
 ?
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
 Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
 To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

 I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
 is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.?
And he
 usually doesn't know he's wrong.
 ?
 I have?some examples to share:
 ?
 I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
 doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
 down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
 broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
 seriously cut himself.
 ?
 I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
 from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front
door
 pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
 gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not
always in the
 exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have
to
 park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
 but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no
idea
 if it wasn't mine.
 ?
 Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
 Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
 Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
 see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
 the intersection by that time.
 ?
 These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he
doesn't
 see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
 thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
 childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get
older.
 ?
 Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to
worry
 about!


 Mindy Lipsey
 Mediaedge:cia
 410-530-5555
 9207 Harvest Rush Road
 Owings Mills, MD? 21117

 ?

 --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

 From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
 To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind
children)'"
 <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
 Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

 Dear Leah,
 What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
 forward to hearing much more from you!

 I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
 of your post...

 [Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
 close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

 This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
 TVI's. It
 can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
 child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
 "blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
 being somewhat
 useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
 wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
 CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
 too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea
(which
 he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
 awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
 car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
 a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
 important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
 "method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

 That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
 kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
 my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE
by
 vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
 don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
 expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
 it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
 they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
 to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
 early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
 recall...

 His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
 dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
 Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
 on
 his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
 13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
 a lesson that he will never forget.

 Sincerely,
 ?
 Carrie Gilmer, President
 National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
 A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
 NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
 Home Phone: 763-784-8590
 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf Of Leah
 Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
 To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

 Doreen,

 I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,?
 I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

 Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you?
 are going through that came through the NFB:

 -reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra?
 articles provided with it upon request
 -reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and?
 decisions faced by people who have some vision
 -going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
 -walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

 Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a?
 blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,?
 and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective?
 on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for?
 several months and between her expertise with children, interest in?
 special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of?
 blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been?
 unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of?
 toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to?
 have blind role models and she was his first.

 I totally understand about vision professionals not always being?
 experienced with the very young child.

 Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her?
 development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and?
 your hopes for her?

 It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement?
 things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things?
 yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I?
 homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am?
 homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It?
 is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some?
 services to continue through the school district forever or only up to?
 a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations?
 in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.?
 Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a?
 place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things?
 like visual impairment or other disabilities.

 You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your?
 rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but?
 overwhelming resource.

 As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to?
 consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the?
 school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their?
 canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if?
 they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk?
 somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went?
 to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults?
 who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and?
 when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,?
 but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the?
 room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been?
 reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any?
 negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just?
 there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be?
 allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can?
 provide the exact text).

 When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know?
 if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were?
 "encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized
how
 ?
 slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from?
 reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they?
 had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been?
 more easily learning Braille.

 For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if?
 there are no other needs.

 Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There?
 are some great stories about this in the early years articles in?
 Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and?
 it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

 I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that?
 specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn?
 about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child?
 needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him?
 learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use?
 your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was?
 ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.?
 Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and?
 print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which?
 are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with?
 a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us?
 a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
 It's?
 fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up?
 with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to?
 have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print?
 becomes too hard.

 Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me?
 were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as?
 things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my?
 dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are?
 directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food?
 boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does?
 mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

 Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some?
 help!

 Leah in TX



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From tjmaries at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 00:26:24 2008
From: tjmaries at yahoo.com (T. J.)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:26:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
References: <493dab16.47c2f10a.5a5d.ffffa4f8@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <978168.9036.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Yes, I think i is time to talk to them again as I have before and failed.? Any help I can get on how to bring up this subject again to my parents,?is very much apreciated.? I just don't know how to make them understand that I need the cane to help prevent falls from tripping over things.
Thanks for listening.
T. J.


________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 3:17:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Dear TJ,

I worked at one of our training centers for five years, and over the course
of time we had a few students there who had shunts. It is a bad thing to
fall and hit your head and especially risky as I recall if you have a shunt.

The depth perception I think would really be helped with a cane and I think
it would be a good idea for your safety. I am sure your parents believe they
are protecting you as things are. Parents are wonderful, but they are human
and can make mistakes. I don't know the whole situation, only what you have
told me, but if you think you need a cane I think there is a good chance you
are right and maybe your parents are making a mistake.

Maybe it is time you had a good heart to heart sit down talk with your
parents. Or maybe time to try it again if you have before and failed. Maybe
you could ask some people here or on the student list for some ideas on how
to say things. 

If there is any way you can think of for me to help you please let me know.

Sincerely, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of T. J.
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 3:14 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I am? 25.? 4 years out of high school.? Still live with my parents (for the
most part this situation is ideal).? But my parents just don't see that I
need a cane.? But I do also have a condition called hydrocephalus that I was
born with. It is treated with a shunt. Due to the hydro I have
some?developemental disabilities.? It is because of my hydro that my vision
is impaired.? I can see 20/20 if the thing I am looking at is?6 inches from
my nose (as this is the point my 2 eyes start working together).? Other than
that I see 20/200 out of the left eye and 20/120 out of the right (at any
point further than 6 inches from my nose).? Also I have no depth perception
what-so-ever.???

T. J.




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 9:09:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
against their parents wishes. 



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,? 
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you? 
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra? 
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and? 
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a? 
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,? 
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective? 
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for? 
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in? 
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of? 
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been? 
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of? 
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to? 
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being? 
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her? 
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and? 
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement? 
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things? 
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I? 
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am? 
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It? 
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some? 
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to? 
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations? 
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.? 
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a? 
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things? 
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your? 
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but? 
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to? 
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the? 
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their? 
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if? 
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk? 
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went? 
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults? 
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and? 
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,? 
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the? 
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been? 
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any? 
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just? 
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be? 
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can? 
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know? 
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were? 
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how

slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from? 
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they? 
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been? 
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if? 
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There? 
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in? 
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and? 
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that? 
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn? 
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child? 
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him? 
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use? 
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was? 
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.? 
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and? 
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which? 
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with? 
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us? 
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's? 
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up? 
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to? 
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print? 
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me? 
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as? 
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my? 
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are? 
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food? 
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does? 
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some? 
help!

Leah in TX



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? ? ? 
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om



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From felizfamily5 at msn.com  Tue Dec  9 01:38:18 2008
From: felizfamily5 at msn.com (Mark Feliz)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:38:18 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Holiday Decorating Blind
References: <493c7234.1e3e400a.1f41.15a5@mx.google.com>
	<001f01c958f3$3850b3c0$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <BLU130-DAV85B09307D206F764C44C39AFA0@phx.gbl>

Hello parents:

whether the real thing or artificial decorating is a great family activity. 
Please get your blind children involved--describe to them what everything 
looks like, in time they will equate the visual with their sense of sound 
and touch and smell. I am a blind parent and I taught my own three sighted 
children how to decorate the outside. Now they have taken on this tradition 
with very little guidance from me.

Merry Christams


Mark Feliz

HAPPY DOTS BRAILLE SERVICES

PRESIDENT, NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND OF ARIZONA
EAST VALLEY CHAPTER

1038 WEST HILLVIEW STREET
MESA, ARIZONA  85201

VOICE: 480-890-8943
FAX: 480-835-3036
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Holiday Decorating Blind


> Hello Carrie and listers,
>
>    You could also try Frasier. Glad there is someone else who enjoys 
> having
> real Christmas trees besides us. We bought a 7-foot Frasier Fir tree last
> week and finished decorating it yesterday evening before sitting down to
> watch "It's a Wonderful Life."
>
>    Frasier Fir Trees remind me of the Balsam Firs we would buy when I 
> lived
> in Massachusetts. Both trees have short very tight needles. I like running
> my hands through the branches and feeling them brush against my palms. I
> often tell Mary that I enjoy, "Petting the t5ree." Perhaps it's a way to
> connect with Christmases past in  what I call my "Old Country."
>
> If you get them as fresh as possible they'll last quite a while. I've 
> heard
> of people keeping live Christmas Trees up well in to the new year; even 
> here
> in South Texas.
>
>    Our tree is so fresh that we needed to let it set up for two nights
> before it was ready to take lights. Mary and I do all of our own Christmas
> decorating. Once the tree or decorations arrive here we take over and put
> them up ourselves. Parents don't be afraid to involve your blind children 
> in
> holiday decorating activities. Mom
> encouraged me to assist with putting up the tree when I was very young
> around 4 or 5 years old to be exact. Happy decorating and may you all have 
> a
> blessed holiday season.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/felizfamily5%40msn.com
> 




From rjharrell at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 02:28:32 2008
From: rjharrell at gmail.com (Rene Harrell)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:28:32 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <493d3b36.1138400a.44f5.429c@mx.google.com>
References: <3BA97EC9-8964-4BFA-BA49-8A921734E7D4@somazen.com>
	<493d3b36.1138400a.44f5.429c@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <b25cf0c50812081828h5ab5ec56t89051fe1de4190a1@mail.gmail.com>

I have definitely found the bias towards using *any* vision, useful or
completely useless, before relying on non-visual techniques to be the norm
of expectations. And it is not just by teachers or school personnel, but
really from society at large.

When Clare first came home, we were told she had light perception only in
her one eye, the other eye being completely non-functional. And for the
first year, everyone around her just presumed she couldn't see anything but
light. I started to notice however, that she appeared to be visually looking
at things once in a while. So, I started to narrate what she was
holding/what she was visually seeing. I vividly remember her first Christmas
home. She was glued to blinking Christmas lights on the tree. So, I sat with
her and I showed her "Clare, this is a red light" "This is a blue light" and
so forth through the whole strand of lights. She was *just* emerging
verbally, and I didn't get any response. Until a month later I saw her
sitting in her brother's room looking at the string of Christmas lights in
his room and moving each individually colored light past her eye while
saying "Blue light"......"Green light"......"Yellow light". She got them all
correct. And so, I realized she could recognize colors.

It was through her ability to name colors that we started to get a grasp on
what kind of residual vision she has left. I am forever thankful that at the
time, I had come across an email on the blindkid listserv that had said
something to the effect that when treated without an automatic bias towards
using vision, that kids will use their residual vision naturally when it is
helpful, and they will use non-visual techniques when it is not helpful;
that residual vision should be *a* tool, and not the predominant tool in the
toolbox. So, I was quite content to let Clare visually ascertain things when
she felt like visually looking at things, and using non-visual techniques
when her vision is clearly not up-to-task.

But as soon as anyone around her got wind that she did, in fact, have some
functional vision, the fun began. All the "exercises" and all the explicit
encouragement for her to take things and "LOOK" at them, to "train" her to
understand her remaining vision. They figured out that when a letter is
projected through a projector or done on a light box at a height of 6 inches
she can tell you what they are. Mind you, this is only about 70% of the
time. It is very clear to me, given the things she can sometimes visually
see and sometimes cannot, that her eye fatigues easily, that it takes effort
to visually focus and a lot of times she either can't, or doesn't want, to
visually discern what is in front of her. I got asked, in all seriousness,
if I wanted her to be a print reader. They pulled out all the contrasting
plates and all the contrasting place mats and put bright neon pink markings
on her chair so she could find her chair. And when we go to the park or we
go someplace where she will remark on something she is visually looking at,
I start getting astonished looks by the people around me: "Oh, she CAN see!
I thought you said she was blind?"

The thing that is frustrating to me is that I really don't have an issue
with her visually seeing things. Sometimes people react as if I'm trying to
somehow make her "more" blind than she "really" is, or that I somehow "wish"
she couldn't see as much as she can, which is just silliness. My issue comes
with trying to teach her, both directly and indirectly, that her vision is
the most important thing she has. She clearly does not feel that way right
now, and left completely without pressure to rely on her sight really takes
control of when it is useful to her and when it is not. I don't WANT her
feeling to pressured to have to use her vision when it is not practical for
her, or it hurts to use it. It makes visually seeing the things she can see
a pleasure, not a chore and not an expectation of being "sighted" that she
can never possibly live up to. I don't need her feeling as if her vision is
the most important asset she has, when reality is that the vision she has is
simply nowhere near adequate for a life as a sighted individual.

But people in general have a really hard time with that. It's almost as if
some times some people feel you are "frauding" them by using the word
"blind" if you have *any* vision whatsoever.

Rene in Colorado Springs

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:20 AM, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Leah,
> What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
> forward to hearing much more from you!
>
> I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
> of your post...
>
> [Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
> 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
> close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]
>
> This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by TVI's. It
> can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
> child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
> "blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while being somewhat
> useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can
> be
> wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
> CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
> too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
> he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
> awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
> car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
> a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
> important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
> "method" can be for orientation or accurate information.
>
> That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
> kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
> my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
> vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses,
> they
> don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
> expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they
> do
> it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
> they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their
> vision
> to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
> early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
> recall...
>
> His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
> dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
> Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
> on
> his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was
> about
> 13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it
> was
> a lesson that he will never forget.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Leah
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals
>
> Doreen,
>
> I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,
> I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).
>
> Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you
> are going through that came through the NFB:
>
> -reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra
> articles provided with it upon request
> -reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and
> decisions faced by people who have some vision
> -going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
> -walking around with people who are confident cane travelers
>
> Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a
> blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,
> and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective
> on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for
> several months and between her expertise with children, interest in
> special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of
> blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been
> unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of
> toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to
> have blind role models and she was his first.
>
> I totally understand about vision professionals not always being
> experienced with the very young child.
>
> Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her
> development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and
> your hopes for her?
>
> It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement
> things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things
> yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I
> homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am
> homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It
> is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some
> services to continue through the school district forever or only up to
> a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations
> in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.
> Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a
> place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things
> like visual impairment or other disabilities.
>
> You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your
> rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but
> overwhelming resource.
>
> As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to
> consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the
> school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their
> canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if
> they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk
> somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went
> to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults
> who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and
> when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,
> but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the
> room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been
> reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any
> negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just
> there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be
> allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can
> provide the exact text).
>
> When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know
> if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were
> "encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how
> slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from
> reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they
> had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been
> more easily learning Braille.
>
> For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if
> there are no other needs.
>
> Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There
> are some great stories about this in the early years articles in
> Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and
> it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.
>
> I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that
> specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn
> about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child
> needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him
> learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use
> your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was
> ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.
> Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and
> print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which
> are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with
> a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us
> a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year. It's
> fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up
> with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to
> have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print
> becomes too hard.
>
> Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me
> were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as
> things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my
> dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are
> directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food
> boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does
> mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.
>
> Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some
> help!
>
> Leah in TX
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
> ail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmail.com>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rjharrell%40gmail.com
>



-- 
" I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up
where I needed to be."
-- Douglas Adams


From jfayre at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 02:50:05 2008
From: jfayre at gmail.com (Jason Fayre)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:50:05 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
Message-ID: <493DDCDD.5070002@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello everyone,
I have a couple questions for the list:
1.  Does anyone have any idea of the best way to teach our 5-year old
adopted child how to drink from a straw?  He can drink from a sippy cup.
 If you give him a straw, he wants to chew on it.  Any suggestions would
be apreciated.
2.  I'm not sure he has ever had someone brush his teeth before.  If we
try at this point, he tries to eat the toothpaste and chew on the tooth
brush.  So, there is very little actual tooth brushing going on.
Obviously, we will show him how to do this for himself eventually, but
he is not there yet.

Thanks!


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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkk93N0ACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM0XHACeMMFUWQe+h6I8ZgMplnvJIpay
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From felizfamily5 at msn.com  Tue Dec  9 03:56:19 2008
From: felizfamily5 at msn.com (Mark Feliz)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:56:19 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] drinking from straw and teeth  brushing
Message-ID: <BLU130-DAV94146AA8E3BAE6B62EB599AFA0@phx.gbl>

Hello Jason,

It may be too early for a straw. How long has your child been using a sippy cup? It sounds like your child is more interested in orral stimulation at this point. Try giving him objects which require the he keep in his mouth but are durrable and purposeful. A toy whistle comes to mind. He must keep it in his mouth to blow and it is durrable so he will get tired of trying to chomp. Hold on to your ears! In the hospital we have used toothbrush sponges. They are little sponges which are coated with toothpaste and on a stick. You moisten the sponge and rub the teeth and gums. This will prevent your child from eating too much toothpaste which can cause him to upchuck.

Good luck!


Mark Feliz

HAPPY DOTS BRAILLE SERVICES

PRESIDENT, NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND OF ARIZONA
EAST VALLEY CHAPTER

1038 WEST HILLVIEW STREET
MESA, ARIZONA  85201

VOICE: 480-890-8943
FAX: 480-835-3036

From kim at gulfimagesphoto.com  Tue Dec  9 10:53:15 2008
From: kim at gulfimagesphoto.com (Kim Cunningham)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 02:53:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
In-Reply-To: <493DDCDD.5070002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <678022.68626.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I wonder if your child understands the concept that if he sucks on the straw, he will get something to drink??? Perhaps you can try dipping the straw into a drink, then put your finger over the top of the straw to create a vacuum. This will ?allow some of the drink to stay in the straw. Then place the straw into his mouth and release your finger. Now he will see that the straw has something good to drink and may naturally suck on it for more. We used to do this with all my kids when they were young. It may be worth a try.....
Kim Cunningham

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Jason Fayre <jfayre at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jason Fayre <jfayre at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 8:50 PM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello everyone,
I have a couple questions for the list:
1.  Does anyone have any idea of the best way to teach our 5-year old
adopted child how to drink from a straw?  He can drink from a sippy cup.
 If you give him a straw, he wants to chew on it.  Any suggestions would
be apreciated.
2.  I'm not sure he has ever had someone brush his teeth before.  If we
try at this point, he tries to eat the toothpaste and chew on the tooth
brush.  So, there is very little actual tooth brushing going on.
Obviously, we will show him how to do this for himself eventually, but
he is not there yet.

Thanks!


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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkk93N0ACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM0XHACeMMFUWQe+h6I8ZgMplnvJIpay
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=ZAk/
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From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 15:52:59 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:52:59 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <978168.9036.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493e9478.0917400a.433f.335e@mx.google.com>

Dear TJ,

Here is my idea for some words to try; a suggestion. I do not know your
parents so it is a bit difficult, I think if you speak from your heart you
will come up with the right words. I am thinking of you and wish you the
best. I hope this helps.

Mom And Dad,

You know that I love you both very much and I think you have been the best
parents I could ever want. I know that you love me very much. You have been
my supporters in every way as I was growing up, and I am so thankful for
you. And now I am grown up, I am 24 years old and I want to talk with you as
a grown up adult. There is one thing I think I need that I feel you are
having trouble understanding and I want to help you understand it.

If I needed sound amplified so I could hear better, I am sure you would help
me get a hearing aid. If my legs didn?t work very well and I needed a
wheelchair to get around I am sure you would help me get a chair. Well my
eyes don?t work the best, and I need the space just in front of me
amplified. I am scared of tripping or falling and you know that would be bad
with my shunt. I think a white cane would help me. It would extend what I
could see, and make me less nervous. I am a grown up and I want to try it,
and I need your support. The cane is just a tool, like a hearing aid or a
wheelchair. It doesn?t change who I am or make me less. Maybe it can make me
more independent too, maybe it can make me better and more confident.

You won?t always be around for me. We have to face that. I want us to plan
for it together. I don?t want to be stuck afraid and in grief planning it by
myself when you are gone. If you get old and sick I want to be grown up
enough to help you, the way you have always helped me. I think getting a
cane is a good start to learning to do things on my own. The NFB is giving
free canes to people like me who need them. I want to order one and give it
a try. I want you to support me in this like you have supported me in
everything else. So, what do you think?

TJ-do your parents know any NFB blind people? Have they ever read any Kernel
books? That might help too.

Warm Regards,

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of T. J.
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:26 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Yes, I think i is time to talk to them again as I have before and failed.?
Any help I can get on how to bring up this subject again to my parents,?is
very much apreciated.? I just don't know how to make them understand that I
need the cane to help prevent falls from tripping over things.
Thanks for listening.
T. J.


________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 3:17:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Dear TJ,

I worked at one of our training centers for five years, and over the course
of time we had a few students there who had shunts. It is a bad thing to
fall and hit your head and especially risky as I recall if you have a shunt.

The depth perception I think would really be helped with a cane and I think
it would be a good idea for your safety. I am sure your parents believe they
are protecting you as things are. Parents are wonderful, but they are human
and can make mistakes. I don't know the whole situation, only what you have
told me, but if you think you need a cane I think there is a good chance you
are right and maybe your parents are making a mistake.

Maybe it is time you had a good heart to heart sit down talk with your
parents. Or maybe time to try it again if you have before and failed. Maybe
you could ask some people here or on the student list for some ideas on how
to say things. 

If there is any way you can think of for me to help you please let me know.

Sincerely, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of T. J.
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 3:14 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I am? 25.? 4 years out of high school.? Still live with my parents (for the
most part this situation is ideal).? But my parents just don't see that I
need a cane.? But I do also have a condition called hydrocephalus that I was
born with. It is treated with a shunt. Due to the hydro I have
some?developemental disabilities.? It is because of my hydro that my vision
is impaired.? I can see 20/20 if the thing I am looking at is?6 inches from
my nose (as this is the point my 2 eyes start working together).? Other than
that I see 20/200 out of the left eye and 20/120 out of the right (at any
point further than 6 inches from my nose).? Also I have no depth perception
what-so-ever.???

T. J.




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 9:09:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
against their parents wishes. 



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees.? And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.
?
I have?some examples to share:
?
I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt.? Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it.? He thought it was a puddle of water.? It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him.? He could have
seriously cut himself.
?
I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service).? I drive a white car.? Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car.? I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road.? Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.
?
Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision.? If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.
?
These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all.? Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers.? And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.
?
Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,? 
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you? 
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra? 
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and? 
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a? 
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,? 
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective? 
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for? 
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in? 
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of? 
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been? 
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of? 
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to? 
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being? 
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her? 
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and? 
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement? 
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things? 
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I? 
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am? 
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It? 
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some? 
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to? 
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations? 
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.? 
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a? 
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things? 
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your? 
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but? 
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to? 
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the? 
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their? 
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if? 
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk? 
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went? 
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults? 
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and? 
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,? 
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the? 
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been? 
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any? 
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just? 
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be? 
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can? 
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know? 
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were? 
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how

slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from? 
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they? 
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been? 
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if? 
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There? 
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in? 
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and? 
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that? 
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn? 
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child? 
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him? 
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use? 
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was? 
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.? 
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and? 
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which? 
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with? 
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us? 
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's? 
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up? 
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to? 
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print? 
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me? 
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as? 
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my? 
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are? 
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food? 
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does? 
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some? 
help!

Leah in TX



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From poetlori8 at msn.com  Tue Dec  9 18:17:17 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:17:17 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
In-Reply-To: <493DDCDD.5070002@gmail.com>
References: <493DDCDD.5070002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS587C02DC4F331104E9E26EBFA0@phx.gbl>

If you're worried about the toothpaste, there is trainer toothpaste that it 
doesn't matter if they swallow.  All you can do is tell him not to chew and 
keep working at it.  Keep telling him to open his mouth.  Sometimes we had 
to brush a certain part of the teeth and then allow a couple of chews before 
the next bunch of teeth.  He will get it.

You may want to find a straw cup that has a rubber straw in it.  We have 
straw chewers, too.  We've already cut down one rubber straw because it got 
a hole.  He can still suck but it's almost too short to chew.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jason Fayre" <jfayre at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:50 PM
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello everyone,
> I have a couple questions for the list:
> 1.  Does anyone have any idea of the best way to teach our 5-year old
> adopted child how to drink from a straw?  He can drink from a sippy cup.
> If you give him a straw, he wants to chew on it.  Any suggestions would
> be apreciated.
> 2.  I'm not sure he has ever had someone brush his teeth before.  If we
> try at this point, he tries to eat the toothpaste and chew on the tooth
> brush.  So, there is very little actual tooth brushing going on.
> Obviously, we will show him how to do this for himself eventually, but
> he is not there yet.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkk93N0ACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM0XHACeMMFUWQe+h6I8ZgMplnvJIpay
> 8nEAoJyrWqgaKEbhDA3+nAM1mL9Tntkd
> =ZAk/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From sek7 at cdc.gov  Tue Dec  9 18:27:12 2008
From: sek7 at cdc.gov (Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH))
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:27:12 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Update on Kendra's line travel
In-Reply-To: <mailman.43.1228845605.5085.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.43.1228845605.5085.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>

I had posted earlier for suggestions on how my kindergarten-age daughter
could be taught to walk in line at school.  I wasn't thrilled with what
I had observed at school and had communicated my feelings to the
teachers and O&M instructor.  Her O&M instructor told me today that she
would follow the suggestions in the Modular Instruction for Independent
Travel book and start by teaching Kendra the pencil grip, as of now.  It
will also be written into her next IEP.  Here is a link to the book for
those who aren't familiar with it:
http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/documents/pdf/Form_ModularInstruction_LSA8
0P.pdf.




From slemmonrn at spotlight-music.com  Tue Dec  9 18:41:42 2008
From: slemmonrn at spotlight-music.com (Stacy Lemmon)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:41:42 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
Message-ID: <002201c95a2d$c8489d40$0401a8c0@stacypc>

Jason~

Occupational therapy may be very useful for you guys.

We still use the infant toothpaste/cleaner by Oral-B. It's okay if its swallowed, and you don't have to worry about spitting it out. Maybe try a spin toothbrush, perhaps even one that plays music.

Stacy

From sek7 at cdc.gov  Tue Dec  9 18:46:55 2008
From: sek7 at cdc.gov (Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH))
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:46:55 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Things to include in a 1st grader's IEP
In-Reply-To: <mailman.43.1228845605.5085.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.43.1228845605.5085.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0D@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>

On January 12th, my daughter's IEP meeting will be held.  Her current
school ends with kindregarten.  We are anticipating a disagreement about
placement with the county (resource room school versus the feeder
elementary school partnered with her current school).  My husband and I
want to be as prepared as possible going into the meeting so please send
along any suggestions for things we should request. For example, it
never dawned on me before this year that we needed to specify that
homework would be brailled. We've asked for amendments to her past IEPs
as things have come up.  One year they wanted her to use a "safe"
cutting tool instead of the scissors she had already been using for a
year.  We asked them to include a statement that she was to use the same
tools/equipment as the rest of the class unless it was agreed upon
otherwise with us.  If there are other things like that we could plan
for ahead of time, it would be helpful.
I'd also welcome input on how many hours of direct TVI instruction your
child received in 1st grade.  Kendra is currently reading above grade
level so we don't want to lose any momentum.
Thank you!
Stephanie




From leah at somazen.com  Tue Dec  9 14:46:11 2008
From: leah at somazen.com (Leah)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:46:11 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
Message-ID: <0310554B-7C43-422D-975A-66A3B1378B1A@somazen.com>

Carrie,

I agree. I wouldn't be happy if someone tried to train my son to use  
vision more than is practical or safe. In that email I was actually  
trying to think of something helpful that came from the school  
district. As a sighted person I also interpret blurs, but specific to  
my level of sight. I thought it was interesting to be reminded that my  
(low vision) son was also doing this, but specific to his level of  
sight. In this case the lesson didn't extend into overuse of sight.

I have a balance disorder and it would make me mad if someone implied  
that I couldn't use the alternative tools I have developed, and had to  
work on training my impaired balance. (Actually they tried that and it  
made my balance worse, though I know for some it can help.) It was  
actually during the time I was introduced to NFB literature that I  
realized I was doing something similar to what my son would have to  
do. I used other senses, sometimes quite creatively, to allow me to  
function. The way in which this process is portrayed by the NFB helped  
me to feel not sick and damaged, but strong and responsible. It helped  
me to not focus so much on the scariness of the loss, which can be  
draining.

Though it's hard to be exact for many reasons, my son scored 20/100  
this year in the better eye for the first time on the Teller Cards,  
making him officially no longer legally blind..until a future  
evaluation I guess. Unfortunately the better eye has very limited  
movement. He honestly does use vision in a lot of things and I  
probably didn't mention this in the first message. But it's good to  
remember that I need to support him in developing what he needs to  
keep full access and interaction with the world, even if he appears to  
be "seeing a lot."

It's funny, I thought my son had memorized one particular playscape.  
It was the one where he first learned to use his hands to measure  
steps up and down before crawling forward. But I've realized that he  
uses a visual cue (the visual contrast of level changes) to decide  
whether to use his hands! A couple of weeks ago we were at the park  
late. It became dark and he missed a level change because he didn't  
have his visual cue to put out the hands. He fell on his nose and lip,  
with only a small cut. I could see the steps in the dark, but he  
couldn't. This would be a great opportunity for us because he does  
rely on vision a lot. We could expand his skills by deliberately  
playing at dark at a playscape so that he could feel with hands first  
with each step, as an exercise. I will be right there this time of  
course :) Then eventually if he misses a step he can do so by being  
careless and forgetting to use a resource that he has (when it's dark,  
feel more than usual).

My son is so dependent because of his cp and because he's little that  
I can forget many many times that there are things he can do for  
himself, in a way that is specific to him. Sometimes I get so tired  
from all the doctors and therapies that I just do for him so it can be  
done and we can have a break. I think there is a large theme that I  
need to explore - the balance between the experts and the expenditure  
of energy it takes to be with them, and the role of the parents which  
has the potential to be the most deeply educating. Thanks for taking  
the time to reply about that.

PS what is a lighted rectangle?

Leah

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I  
look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the  
end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me  
were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things  
come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person  
can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their  
vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places  
(being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea  
(which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough  
when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide  
down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur  
may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for  
SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other  
senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but  
they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their  
vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of  
my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he  
relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was  
about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless  
it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely,
?
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc



From smerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu  Tue Dec  9 21:04:21 2008
From: smerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu (Dr. S. Merchant)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:04:21 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Things to include in a 1st grader's IEP
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0D@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <mailman.43.1228845605.5085.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0D@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <068b01c95a41$b6014380$2203ca80$@lsu.edu>

Stephanie,

Does your school system have an accelerated or gifted program.  If so,
Kendra may deserve placement consideration or gifted services.  This is the
perfect time to ask, since in many cases 1st grade is where they start doing
"extra" or start identifying and offering other services/programs/placement.

It adds a little extra layer, but in our case, not much more, just
coordination with the gifted program to send over a teacher for gifted
services and enrichment, since we chose to keep Michael with his VI teacher
in his class of 3 other VI kids and not send him to the gifted class which
was in another elementary school.  However, by 3rd grade we made a decision
to send him to the gifted class at another school and have his VI teacher be
itinerate.  He was well grounded in Braille and other VI skills (as well
grounded as a 3rd grader can be) and now needed to be surrounded by his
academic peers.

So,, just a thought.

Sandy Taboada



-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH)
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:47 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Things to include in a 1st grader's IEP

On January 12th, my daughter's IEP meeting will be held.  Her current
school ends with kindregarten.  We are anticipating a disagreement about
placement with the county (resource room school versus the feeder
elementary school partnered with her current school).  My husband and I
want to be as prepared as possible going into the meeting so please send
along any suggestions for things we should request. For example, it
never dawned on me before this year that we needed to specify that
homework would be brailled. We've asked for amendments to her past IEPs
as things have come up.  One year they wanted her to use a "safe"
cutting tool instead of the scissors she had already been using for a
year.  We asked them to include a statement that she was to use the same
tools/equipment as the rest of the class unless it was agreed upon
otherwise with us.  If there are other things like that we could plan
for ahead of time, it would be helpful.
I'd also welcome input on how many hours of direct TVI instruction your
child received in 1st grade.  Kendra is currently reading above grade
level so we don't want to lose any momentum.
Thank you!
Stephanie


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smerchant%40mail.v
etmed.lsu.edu







From eteply at cfl.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 21:13:23 2008
From: eteply at cfl.rr.com (Erin Teply)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:13:23 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
In-Reply-To: <493DDCDD.5070002@gmail.com>
References: <493DDCDD.5070002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6DD974B4-DA94-4B60-B418-5BB654E5B39E@cfl.rr.com>

Jason,

One quick suggestion that has worked with my kids is to lay them down  
and brush their teeth.  It is easier for you to get at their teeth  
because they open their mouth wider from what I have experienced.  My  
almost 3 year old (blind) does what you are describing with your son  
and laying him down helps.

-Erin

On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:50 PM, Jason Fayre wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello everyone,
> I have a couple questions for the list:
> 1.  Does anyone have any idea of the best way to teach our 5-year old
> adopted child how to drink from a straw?  He can drink from a sippy  
> cup.
> If you give him a straw, he wants to chew on it.  Any suggestions  
> would
> be apreciated.
> 2.  I'm not sure he has ever had someone brush his teeth before.  If  
> we
> try at this point, he tries to eat the toothpaste and chew on the  
> tooth
> brush.  So, there is very little actual tooth brushing going on.
> Obviously, we will show him how to do this for himself eventually, but
> he is not there yet.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
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> 8nEAoJyrWqgaKEbhDA3+nAM1mL9Tntkd
> =ZAk/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/eteply%40cfl.rr.com




From kcuellar at swisd.net  Tue Dec  9 21:50:02 2008
From: kcuellar at swisd.net (Karen T. Cuellar)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:50:02 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Update on Kendra's line travel
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <fc.011f79e500a088183b9aca003e55c1d8.a08845@swisd.net>

Your link does not work

"NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,  (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org> writes:
 I had posted earlier for suggestions on how my kindergarten-age daughter
could be taught to walk in line at school.  I wasn't thrilled with what
I had observed at school and had communicated my feelings to the
teachers and O&M instructor.  Her O&M instructor told me today that she
would follow the suggestions in the Modular Instruction for Independent
Travel book and start by teaching Kendra the pencil grip, as of now.  It
will also be written into her next IEP.  Here is a link to the book for
those who aren't familiar with it:
http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/documents/pdf/Form_ModularInstruction_LSA8
0P.pdf.




Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.  

Karen Cuellar
TVI - Teacher of the Visually Impaired
SWISD
 



From jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 22:18:02 2008
From: jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com (Jan Wright)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:18:02 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Nominate a student to receive equipment from the Stevie
	Wonder House
Message-ID: <031e01c95a4c$036d5140$2f01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>


"Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
"Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu translation
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lori 
To: nfb-indiana at yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:52 AM
Subject: [nfb-indiana] Nominate a student to receive equipment from the Stevie Wonder House


Nominate a student to receive equipment from the Stevie Wonder House
Full of Toys benefit concert
The 13th Stevie Wonder "House Full of Toys" fundraising concert is
being held this December 13 in Los Angeles. This is the sixth
community-giving program Sendero has spearheaded.
Nominations are open for students and young folks who could benefit
from this technology and who could not otherwise afford it. A school
or small organization may also apply where the equipment might be
used by more than one student.
One thing that is a bit different from the past two years is that we
would like to hear from the student as well as the teacher who is
nominating him or her. In this season of giving, the application asks
for one page or less with a story or essay about what the student has
done or is doing to give to others.
Nominations are open through January 15 2009.
For more details on who is donating and what and to apply, visit
http://www.SenderoGroup.com/hftform.htm
Feel free to pass this announcement around to others
So far, companies donating include:
Code Factory
Freedom Scientific
GW Micro
Humanware
KNFB
LevelStar
Sendero Group
TalkingThermostats.com
ViewPlus



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From pmcguire at knology.net  Tue Dec  9 22:19:41 2008
From: pmcguire at knology.net (Penny McGuire)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:19:41 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
References: <678022.68626.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7CFEE79DA53D495DA3E4DBAD501093FB@owner3aeecfe4a>

Hey! I am a hygienist.  Be careful about letting him ingest toothpaste. Of 
course, a little isn't going to hurt but too much with affect his permanent 
teeth estethically.  They will be strong but have large yellow spots on 
them.  Try getting him to lie down so you can see in his mouth better too. 
A dry toothbrush will do wonders!  Oh, and my 10 year old still has me 
either doing it or going behind her!  LOL

Penny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kim Cunningham" <kim at gulfimagesphoto.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] a couple of questions


I wonder if your child understands the concept that if he sucks on the 
straw, he will get something to drink??? Perhaps you can try dipping the 
straw into a drink, then put your finger over the top of the straw to create 
a vacuum. This will allow some of the drink to stay in the straw. Then place 
the straw into his mouth and release your finger. Now he will see that the 
straw has something good to drink and may naturally suck on it for more. We 
used to do this with all my kids when they were young. It may be worth a 
try.....
Kim Cunningham

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Jason Fayre <jfayre at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jason Fayre <jfayre at gmail.com>
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 8:50 PM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello everyone,
I have a couple questions for the list:
1.  Does anyone have any idea of the best way to teach our 5-year old
adopted child how to drink from a straw?  He can drink from a sippy cup.
 If you give him a straw, he wants to chew on it.  Any suggestions would
be apreciated.
2.  I'm not sure he has ever had someone brush his teeth before.  If we
try at this point, he tries to eat the toothpaste and chew on the tooth
brush.  So, there is very little actual tooth brushing going on.
Obviously, we will show him how to do this for himself eventually, but
he is not there yet.

Thanks!


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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkk93N0ACgkQ7qIPzHzsoM0XHACeMMFUWQe+h6I8ZgMplnvJIpay
8nEAoJyrWqgaKEbhDA3+nAM1mL9Tntkd
=ZAk/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/kim%40gulfimagesphoto.com
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/pmcguire%40knology.net




From andysally at comcast.net  Tue Dec  9 23:53:23 2008
From: andysally at comcast.net (Andy & Sally Thomas)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:53:23 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback
Message-ID: <35DDBC9755F2448D9E40F5760D97AC36@andysallyhome>

I've been thinking about the fact that my son's papers are graded with a red pen.  Comments are also in print.  I'm not sure that he is really taking in the fact that there is a connection between the work he does and the grade he receives.  He "gets it" in an obvious sense but not deep down.  I'm wondering if this is partially due to the fact that he doesn't get the feedback of seeing the red marks and the grade on the paper.  His teachers say that it is "age appropriate" that he's not too concerned about his grades.   Do any of your kids get tactile feedback about the problems they miss and/or the grades they get?  Is that a reasonable expectation?  I view it as one more thing that goes to his independence and taking personal responsibility for his work.

Sally Thomas

From branlw at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 10 00:35:58 2008
From: branlw at sbcglobal.net (Brandy with Discovery Toys)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:35:58 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback
In-Reply-To: <35DDBC9755F2448D9E40F5760D97AC36@andysallyhome>
References: <35DDBC9755F2448D9E40F5760D97AC36@andysallyhome>
Message-ID: <E97BF6F5357C4CF49614DDCCDC2EC725@BrandyPC>

Hi, in a perfect world we would get grades and comments we can read but 
unfortunately its not going to happen. they will tell you his education is 
free and appropriate but that someone can read his grades. Even in college I 
get papers with printed grades and these people could send me comments 
electronically. Some professors send me comments, but most do not. I think 
its important that you talk with him about his grades, and really talk about 
how because he was careless and spelled 3 words wrong he lost so many 
points. However I also think it is his age. around 8th grade the kids start 
to care more and understand that grades are what will get them into the 
programs they desire. Just my 2 cents.


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. 
Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy & Sally Thomas" <andysally at comcast.net>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback


> I've been thinking about the fact that my son's papers are graded with a 
> red pen.  Comments are also in print.  I'm not sure that he is really 
> taking in the fact that there is a connection between the work he does and 
> the grade he receives.  He "gets it" in an obvious sense but not deep 
> down.  I'm wondering if this is partially due to the fact that he doesn't 
> get the feedback of seeing the red marks and the grade on the paper.  His 
> teachers say that it is "age appropriate" that he's not too concerned 
> about his grades.   Do any of your kids get tactile feedback about the 
> problems they miss and/or the grades they get?  Is that a reasonable 
> expectation?  I view it as one more thing that goes to his independence 
> and taking personal responsibility for his work.
>
> Sally Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/branlw%40sbcglobal.net 




From branlw at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 10 00:44:09 2008
From: branlw at sbcglobal.net (Brandy with Discovery Toys)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:44:09 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <978168.9036.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <493dab16.47c2f10a.5a5d.ffffa4f8@mx.google.com>
	<978168.9036.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <741ECC5973C04DA0952C4064860EF8F6@BrandyPC>

Hi, I wish you luck as you talk to your parents. I think it is important you 
take over your choices as an adult. The NFB has some wonderful literature. 
Any chance you can bring your family to a NFB convention or meeting. This 
way they could meet confident adults using canes successfully. Bran


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. 
Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision


Yes, I think i is time to talk to them again as I have before and failed. 
Any help I can get on how to bring up this subject again to my parents, is 
very much apreciated. I just don't know how to make them understand that I 
need the cane to help prevent falls from tripping over things.
Thanks for listening.
T. J.


________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 3:17:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Dear TJ,

I worked at one of our training centers for five years, and over the course
of time we had a few students there who had shunts. It is a bad thing to
fall and hit your head and especially risky as I recall if you have a shunt.

The depth perception I think would really be helped with a cane and I think
it would be a good idea for your safety. I am sure your parents believe they
are protecting you as things are. Parents are wonderful, but they are human
and can make mistakes. I don't know the whole situation, only what you have
told me, but if you think you need a cane I think there is a good chance you
are right and maybe your parents are making a mistake.

Maybe it is time you had a good heart to heart sit down talk with your
parents. Or maybe time to try it again if you have before and failed. Maybe
you could ask some people here or on the student list for some ideas on how
to say things.

If there is any way you can think of for me to help you please let me know.

Sincerely,

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of T. J.
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 3:14 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I am 25. 4 years out of high school. Still live with my parents (for the
most part this situation is ideal). But my parents just don't see that I
need a cane. But I do also have a condition called hydrocephalus that I was
born with. It is treated with a shunt. Due to the hydro I have
some developemental disabilities. It is because of my hydro that my vision
is impaired. I can see 20/20 if the thing I am looking at is 6 inches from
my nose (as this is the point my 2 eyes start working together). Other than
that I see 20/200 out of the left eye and 20/120 out of the right (at any
point further than 6 inches from my nose). Also I have no depth perception
what-so-ever.

T. J.




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 9:09:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
against their parents wishes.



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees. And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.

I have some examples to share:

I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt. Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it. He thought it was a puddle of water. It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him. He could have
seriously cut himself.

I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service). I drive a white car. Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car. I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road. Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.

Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision. If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.

These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all. Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers. And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.

Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD 21117



--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely,

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how

slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some
help!

Leah in TX



_______________________________________________
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blindkid:
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ail.com


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om




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From tjmaries at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 00:56:54 2008
From: tjmaries at yahoo.com (T. J.)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:56:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
References: <493dab16.47c2f10a.5a5d.ffffa4f8@mx.google.com>
	<978168.9036.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<741ECC5973C04DA0952C4064860EF8F6@BrandyPC>
Message-ID: <532949.43861.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

No. They probably won't even consider going to a convention or meeting as they don't think I'm "blind enough" to even be considered a blind person.

T. J.


________________________________
From: Brandy with Discovery Toys <branlw at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet wBlind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 4:44:09 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Hi, I wish you luck as you talk to your parents. I think it is important you take over your choices as an adult. The NFB has some wonderful literature. Any chance you can bring your family to a NFB convention or meeting. This way they could meet confident adults using canes successfully. Bran


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- From: "T. J." <tjmaries at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision


Yes, I think i is time to talk to them again as I have before and failed. Any help I can get on how to bring up this subject again to my parents, is very much apreciated. I just don't know how to make them understand that I need the cane to help prevent falls from tripping over things.
Thanks for listening.
T. J.


________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 3:17:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Dear TJ,

I worked at one of our training centers for five years, and over the course
of time we had a few students there who had shunts. It is a bad thing to
fall and hit your head and especially risky as I recall if you have a shunt.

The depth perception I think would really be helped with a cane and I think
it would be a good idea for your safety. I am sure your parents believe they
are protecting you as things are. Parents are wonderful, but they are human
and can make mistakes. I don't know the whole situation, only what you have
told me, but if you think you need a cane I think there is a good chance you
are right and maybe your parents are making a mistake.

Maybe it is time you had a good heart to heart sit down talk with your
parents. Or maybe time to try it again if you have before and failed. Maybe
you could ask some people here or on the student list for some ideas on how
to say things.

If there is any way you can think of for me to help you please let me know.

Sincerely,

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of T. J.
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 3:14 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I am 25. 4 years out of high school. Still live with my parents (for the
most part this situation is ideal). But my parents just don't see that I
need a cane. But I do also have a condition called hydrocephalus that I was
born with. It is treated with a shunt. Due to the hydro I have
some developemental disabilities. It is because of my hydro that my vision
is impaired. I can see 20/20 if the thing I am looking at is 6 inches from
my nose (as this is the point my 2 eyes start working together). Other than
that I see 20/200 out of the left eye and 20/120 out of the right (at any
point further than 6 inches from my nose). Also I have no depth perception
what-so-ever.

T. J.




________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 9:09:42 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

Very excellent additions Mindy, thankyou, I am saving for compilation.

And TJ, how old are you? Are you not old enough to decide for yourself to
use a cane? Have you gone on the student list? I have read conversations
there of support for students to use a cane and to deal with it when it is a
against their parents wishes.



Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:38 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision

I personally think that a young child who tries to use his residual vision
is often wrong in his interpretation of what he "thinks" he sees. And he
usually doesn't know he's wrong.

I have some examples to share:

I was walking my 11 year old into school one day and we were late due to a
doctor appt. Matthew walked by something in the grass and went to reach
down to touch it. He thought it was a puddle of water. It was actually a
broken window pane and the glass looked like water to him. He could have
seriously cut himself.

I pick Matthew up at a local elementary school where he gets transportation
from the middle school (he's in a magnet school so we don't get front door
pick up service). I drive a white car. Sometimes I watch Matthew after he
gets off the bus, while he's "looking" for my car. I'm not always in the
exact same spot, b/c sometimes there's another car in my spot, so I have to
park a little further down the road. Matthew is looking for a white car,
but he would honestly get into anyone's white car and he would have no idea
if it wasn't mine.

Children with certain low vision eye diseases (like Matthew, who has
Stargardts) also have "come and go" vision. If a car starts out in
Matthew's blind spot and he begins to cross the street, he would suddenly
see the car appear but it could be too late and he may be in the middle of
the intersection by that time.

These incidences made me realize that Matthew doesn't know what he doesn't
see, and sometimes he thinks he sees something and it's really not what he
thinks it is at all. Low vision is a very difficult thing to explain to our
childrens' teachers. And it doesn't get any easier as they get older.

Just a few more things to ponder.... as if we all don't have enough to worry
about!


Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD 21117



--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 10:20 AM

Dear Leah,
What a wonderful post and testimony, thank you so much for sharing. I look
forward to hearing much more from you!

I would like to comment specifically to one part that you wrote in the end
of your post...

[Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me were
1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as things come
close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my dog!"]

This idea is very prevalent, and is even sometimes "trained" by
TVI's. It
can however be very misleading and even at times dangerous for the
child/student. My son's teacher's were big on this idea. Interpreting
"blurs" and "lighted rectangles" (for those with LP) while
being somewhat
useful occasionally, is more often than not unreliable and the person can be
wrong, very wrong. It can also give the student the idea that their vision
CAN be relied upon, and they can transfer that idea to other places (being
too young to discriminate). In my son's case he transferred the idea (which
he got from his O and M and Teacher of blind students very strongly) for
awhile (unbeknown to me for awhile) that he could tell soon enough when a
car was coming by vision, or in another case when it was safe to slide down
a busy hill (ended up with two black eyes one swollen shut). It is very
important that the student realize just how wrong and unreliable this
"method" can be for orientation or accurate information.

That brown blur may be A dog, but not HIS dog, is another example of the
kinds of errors I have witnessed low vision children use. That blur may be
my mom--or it may be a stranger. The child usually doesn't KNOW for SURE by
vision--. They are so good already at incorporating their other senses, they
don't realize it is often other things, sound, head knowledge of who to
expect at a certain time, that gives them the definitive answer, but they do
it without much thought, naturally, and no one usually points it out, so
they have some false idea too of how much they are really using their vision
to accurately KNOW something. I probably have a thousand examples of my son
early on learning the unreliability of his vision. One particular I can
recall...

His older sister came home from college fro the weekend. A new friend
dropped her off and came in to the door to meet us. She was tall, like
Jordan's sister, her outline was similar. Jordan did not check, he relied
on
his vision...he ran up and gave the wrong girl a great big hug. He was about
13, he was pretty embarrassed. Although that was essentially harmless it was
a lesson that he will never forget.

Sincerely,

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Leah
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:05 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] help needed with IEP goals

Doreen,

I second what Kim said about learning both Braille and print. In fact,
I was about to write a post to this list about this (coming soon).

Here are some of the things that have helped me with some of what you
are going through that came through the NFB:

-reading the Early Years edition of Future Reflections and the extra
articles provided with it upon request
-reading the "low vision" articles from the NFB on issues and
decisions faced by people who have some vision
-going on a blindfold cane walk at an NFB state convention
-walking around with people who are confident cane travelers

Another thing that we did that was available here in Texas was meet a
blind college student who is majoring in education and an NFB member,
and spend time with her asking lots of questions and her perspective
on my child's little and big issues. She cared for him part time for
several months and between her expertise with children, interest in
special ed, and her experience with the alternative skills of
blindness, she introduced him to many things that others had been
unsuccessful with, such as chalk, painting, coloring, certain types of
toys, and walking with hands held (he also has cp). I want for him to
have blind role models and she was his first.

I totally understand about vision professionals not always being
experienced with the very young child.

Do you have anyone you can sit down and talk with about her
development overall, how you see her strengths and weaknesses, and
your hopes for her?

It can be hard to know when to push the school district to implement
things that they are not, or to renegotiate, and when to tackle things
yourself. It sounds like for now you are going to have her at home. I
homeschooled one of my children for preschool and first grade and am
homeschooling my visually impaired son who is preschool aged now. It
is fun! Each state has different laws - some states allow some
services to continue through the school district forever or only up to
a certain age. If you use google you can find homeschool organizations
in your state and also homeschool listservs in your state or city.
Also, the organization (your state's name) Parent to Parent may be a
place to find other homeschooling parents of kids with various things
like visual impairment or other disabilities.

You can also use a volunteer or paid advocate to help you learn your
rights and work with the school district. Wrightslaw.com is a good but
overwhelming resource.

As far as your IEP goals, it is your decision, but I would urge you to
consider Braille instruction and use of a cane. People working for the
school district told me that NFB people were so attached to their
canes and their Braille that they would not even look at something if
they could see it and they would not allow their children to walk
somewhere without their cane even if they didn't need it. When I went
to my first NFB conference I saw that this was not true. Blind adults
who were using Braille were using their vision if they had some and
when they chose to use it. People were walking all over with canes,
but they were also putting down their canes and walking around the
room if that was right for them. In the short time that I have been
reading NFB material and exposed to NFB members, I haven't found any
negatives to using a cane and using Braille. Those things are just
there to help. And the law states that instruction in Braille shall be
allowed unless there is an express reason not to use it (others can
provide the exact text).

When my son was 1 or 2 and I went around asking everyone how to know
if he should learn Braille, many people told me that they were
"encouraged" to use only print and that by the time they realized how

slow their reading speed was and how bad their headaches were from
reading heavy reading assignments in the upper grades, they felt they
had missed a crucial time when they were young and could have been
more easily learning Braille.

For pencil grip, I would consult a good private OT, even briefly if
there are no other needs.

Don't feel that you need an expert before she can have a cane. There
are some great stories about this in the early years articles in
Future Reflections. If she is hurting herself, a cane might help, and
it is okay for you as the parent to give it to her.

I think school district personnel are more likely to feel that
specific visual training is necessary. We started with trying to learn
about basic normal development, and finding in what areas our child
needed help, and finding any way, even creative ways, to help him
learn and progress. In playing on the playscape he learned to "use
your fingers" to feel in front of him for steps and changes. I was
ready to hand him a cane but he has cp and hasn't yet learned to walk.
Meantime, he has an IEP goal to learn his letters in both Braille and
print at the same time. He's learning to draw lines and circles which
are pre-writing goals (in OT) and in time I hope he can play more with
a slate and stylus and a Brailler. His TVI was nice enough to loan us
a Perkins Brailler so that he could "scribble" on it last year.
It's
fine with me if he can see large print, but I'm still going to keep up
with the Braille until I have a reason not to. I would hate for him to
have a subject he loves to read about but can't because the print
becomes too hard.

Two of the helpful things that school district personnel did tell me
were 1) that the child will be able to learn to interpret blurs as
things come close and go far away - as in "oh that brown blur is my
dog!" and 2) make sure that things that are too far away to see are
directly experienced by the child, such as the print on the food
boxes, how food is prepared, what is on the high bookshelves, how does
mom put on her makeup, or whatever is important to you.

Please keep writing and asking. I hope our experiences will be of some
help!

Leah in TX



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From cconley at fuse.net  Wed Dec 10 01:40:26 2008
From: cconley at fuse.net (Cindy Conley)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:40:26 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback
References: <35DDBC9755F2448D9E40F5760D97AC36@andysallyhome>
Message-ID: <014a01c95a68$4c4e0550$0502a8c0@D5L5WQ51>

We went through this with Kyle. I finally put in his IEP that every 
communication would be in Braille for Kyle. That meant that a graded 
paper had to have comments in Braille. A letter home had to have a 
Braille copy attached. The lunch menu even had to be Brailled.
It was made very clear that if Kyle did not get a communication in 
Braille, he was not to be held responsible for it. After a few times 
of not being 'allowed' to punish for work not being done, the teachers 
figured out that they better give everything in Braille. It worked 
most of the time.
Cindy Conley
cconley at fuse.net

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will 
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
Herm Albright
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy & Sally Thomas" <andysally at comcast.net>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback


> I've been thinking about the fact that my son's papers are graded 
> with a red pen.  Comments are also in print.  I'm not sure that he 
> is really taking in the fact that there is a connection between the 
> work he does and the grade he receives.  He "gets it" in an obvious 
> sense but not deep down.  I'm wondering if this is partially due to 
> the fact that he doesn't get the feedback of seeing the red marks 
> and the grade on the paper.  His teachers say that it is "age 
> appropriate" that he's not too concerned about his grades.   Do any 
> of your kids get tactile feedback about the problems they miss 
> and/or the grades they get?  Is that a reasonable expectation?  I 
> view it as one more thing that goes to his independence and taking 
> personal responsibility for his work.
>
> Sally Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/cconley%40fuse.net
> 




From newmanrl at cox.net  Wed Dec 10 07:18:35 2008
From: newmanrl at cox.net (Robert Newman)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:18:35 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] NFB- 2009 Writing Contest for Youth and Adults
Message-ID: <auto-000078279989@mailfront2.g2host.com>


NFB Writers' Division Writing contests For Both Youth And Adults

The National Federation of the Blind Writers' Division wishes to 
announce our annual writing contests. The opening date for 
submissions in both the contests for youth and for adults is January 
1st, with the closing on (Post Marked) April 1st. See all requirements below:

Youth Writing Contest

The NFB Writers' Division is hosting a Youth Writing Contest to 
promote Braille literacy and excellence in creative writing. Entries 
will be judged on creativity and quality of Braille. We are looking 
for creative writing, in the form of fiction and poetry. There is no 
charge for entering.

This is a contest for students who use Braille. Entries must Be 
submitted in hand embossed Braille, either on a slate and stylus or 
on a Braille writer. No computer Braille entries will be considered. 
Submissions must be Brailled by the entrant. Elementary students 
(K-5) may submit contracted Braille, uncontracted Braille, or an 
acceptable combination of the two. Students in higher grades will be 
expected to submit stories or poetry in contracted Braille.

There are six categories, as follows: Elementary Fiction; Elementary 
Poetry; Middle School Fiction; Middle School Poetry; High School 
Fiction; High School Poetry. Elementary is K-5. Middle School is 6-8. 
High School is 9-12.

The contest begins January first, and ends, postmarked date April 
first. There will be three cash prizes for each of the six 
categories. First prize per contest is $25. Second prize is $15 and 
third prize is $5. Submissions for fiction may not exceed one 
thousand words. Poetry may not exceed twenty lines. Authors may 
submit multiple entries and all work must be original and unpublished.

Each entrant must provide an identical print copy for possible publication.

Entries must be accompanied by a cover sheet containing entrant's 
information: Name, address, phone, email, title of the entry, school 
and grade of entrant. Winners will be announced at our division 
meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in Detroit, Michigan.

Send to Fred Wurtzel, 1212 N Foster, Lansing Michigan, 48912.

Adult Writing Contest

The NFB Writers' Division's writing contest of fiction short stories 
and poetry for adults will be open for submissions starting January 
1st, closing Post Marked April 1st.    Top prize for each contest is 
$100, second $50, and third $25. Winners will be announced at our 
division meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in 
Detroit, Michigan.

Fiction: short stories can be up to 3,000 words and can be of any 
genre. All work must be original and previously unpublished. If you 
wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet with title of 
all entries, name, address, phone and email (if available). A second 
requirement , is please have your documents double spaced and if you 
are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be handwritten. The cost for 
submission of a single story is $5.00. You can send either a check or 
money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division.

You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method 
of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Tom 
Stevens address- 1203 S. Fairview Road, Columbia MO 65203. The second 
method is to email your writing and cover letter to 
<mailto:cthls at earthlink.net>cthls at earthlink.net And for payment for 
electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal 
by then URL 
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Tom's address in choice one.

Poetry: Entrants are invited to submit original poetry of up to 36 
lines. If you wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet 
with title of all entries, name, address, phone and email (if 
available). A second requirement , is please have your documents 
double spaced and if you are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be 
handwritten. The cost is $5.00 for up to 3 poems and you can send 
either a check or money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division.

You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method 
of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Lori 
Stayer, 2704 Beach Drive, Merrick NY 11566.

The second method is to email your writing and cover letter to 
<mailto:LoriStay at aol.com>LoriStay at aol.com And for payment for 
electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal 
by then URL 
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Lori's address in choice one.

President NFB Writers' Division
Robert Leslie Newman
Email- newmanrl at cox.net
Division Website-
<Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org>Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
Robert Leslie Newman
Email- newmanrl at cox.net
THOUGHT PROVOKER Website-
<Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info>Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info




From r.polk1 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 10 08:53:31 2008
From: r.polk1 at sbcglobal.net (Ruby Polk)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:53:31 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] New Perkins Brailler
Message-ID: <auto-000078290125@mailfront2.g2host.com>

NEW PERKINS BRAILLER

 >From the Editor of the Matilda Ziegler Magazine for the blind.

To All  Readers:

It's a sunny morning in Watertown, MA, with a temperature in the mid-60s and
Mother Nature in the midst of her glorious autumnal show of color.  I'm on
the well-manicured campus of Perkins School for the Blind, where I have come
for the introduction of a redesigned icon.

Today would be the first opportunity for Perkins students- and me--to see
the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler.

I entered the stately Howe Building and made my way over squeaky-clean tile
floors to the auditorium, where students were awaiting the start of the
presentation.

Standing in front of a large, round wooden table was David Morgan, general
manager of Perkins Products, the entity responsible for re-thinking the
brailler.  On the table sat four of his brand-new creations, and David
showed me the brailler's finer points as we discussed the design process.

He explained that Perkins Products began conceptualizing an updated brailler
about three years ago, but the "real work" started a year later, with
intensive user research in places like India, Mexico, South Africa and
Malawi.  Researchers heard how dust and dirt can jam the machines in India,
how teachers in Malawi have just one brailler to pass around an entire
school, and how American users wished for something easier to carry.

Perkins engineers paid close attention to these comments, and they responded
by making their next-generation brailler more portable, with a lighter
weight and a smaller size.  This machine weighs about 25 percent, or three
pounds, less, and its footprint has been reduced, with dimensions that are
12 inches long, 10 inches wide and six inches high.  A new built-in handle
in the base is easy to grip.  The brailler's keys have been redesigned to
require less force, so the machine is more comfortable to use over a longer
period of time.  Keys are now lower to the table surface, making it easier
to position fingers comfortably.

The color of the keys has been changed to white, which contrasts with the
brailler's colorful body, aiding those with low vision.  The new machine is
less noisy, and it has a muted end-of-line bell.  At the back of the
brailler is a retractable reading rest, which holds the paper flat, making
it easier to proofread.  Located on the front of the machine, margin guides
are easier to grasp and hold.  These are now easily accessible, and do not
require reaching around to the back.  The paper-feed knobs have a flatter
shape, making them easier to hold and turn.  This brailler takes paper up to
8-1/2 inches wide and 14 inches long.

I'm sure braillists will appreciate these many improvements, but I'm betting
that the most popular feature will be the easy-erase button.  Simply
depressing one key deletes an incorrect cell, letting the user braille over
the original one.

As you might expect, the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler, its official
name, looks and feels very different from the classic version, which Perkins
will continue to sell.

Although the original design is cherished, it went unchanged for 57 years,
and Perkins thought they were losing a lot of young people with it--that it
wasn't quite "cool enough," according to David.  Hip or not, the engineers
saw no need to do a complete redesign, he said.  They kept everything that
was great about the original and put it in new packaging, making the machine
lighter and more portable.

Those familiar with the classic know it is constructed of heavy-duty metal.
The next- generation brailler still has mostly all-metal construction
inside, and the same embossing mechanisms, but the exterior shell is made of
ABS plastic.  This polycarbonate is a high-impact engineered plastic, like
that used on aircraft.  Perkins Products believes this plastic will prove to
be more durable.

It certainly is more colorful, as the brailler's exterior housing comes in a
vivid shade similar to sky blue.

This color, known as APH blue, will be the only one available until the
spring, when there will be two more color choices: raspberry and midnight
blue.

How did the color and initials of American Printing House for the Blind end
up on a Perkins product?  David explained that APH actually had started
designing its own brailler a few years ago.  After learning that Perkins was
already redesigning the classic brailler, APH decided to shelve its project.
They joined forces with the school and supported Perkins's redesign by
underwriting much of the research and development costs.

In exchange for the Printing House's contribution, the letters a p and h
were added to the brailler's name, and APH blue was the first color to be
offered.  They also have exclusive distribution rights within the United
States and U.S. territories for the first six months of the product launch.
Buyers using Federal Quota Funds will have to make their purchases through
APH.  By spring 2009, however, Perkins Products expects that all the
resellers who carried its braillers in the past will offer the new one.

The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler came on the United States market in
October at a price of $650, which, refreshingly, is $40 less than the
classic.  It has a warranty of one year on parts and labor.  International
orders will be accepted after the first of the year.  For developing
countries with lower and middle incomes, purchase subsidies will be
available, as they are for the classic model.

Some of the next-generation braillers will undoubtedly end up back in the
country where they were made.  While the components are mostly American,
some parts are sourced from southeast Asia.  Final assembly takes place in
India at an ISO 9001 factory, which meets U.S. standards, and about 80
percent of its workers have some kind of disability.

Perkins Products has developed a marketing strategy for this brailler, the
centerpiece of which is a special Web site.  Perkinsbrailler.org features a
song written especially for the brailler by blind recording artist Raul
Midon.  His "Next Generation" is a very catchy tune, and if you like it
enough, you can even download a ringtone to your cell phone.

After the marketing presentation was concluded, David left the Howe Building
with me.  I asked him what the next project is for Perkins Products, and
found out that an electric version of the redesigned brailler will be coming
to market in a year or so.

I then asked how the introduction has been going for this brailler.  David
said he's pleased that the machine has generated a great deal of attention,
and thinks that sales will be stimulated as word gets out.

With obvious pride, he mentioned that professionals in the blindness field
have called the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler "revolutionary."  As we
said our goodbyes, David added a final thought: "If it builds interest and
excitement for braille, then it's done its job."

The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler certainly is a great present for
Louis Braille's 200th birthday in January-or this month it could even be a
nice holiday gift for yourself or someone very special. 




From gwunder at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 10 09:08:34 2008
From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:08:34 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar
Message-ID: <auto-000077918011@mailfront1.g2host.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:JMcCarthy at nfb.org>McCarthy, Jim
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar

Fellow Federationists:



             The following message comes from Diane McGeorge who organizes

  much of the logistics of Washington Seminar.



             The time is growing closer than you might think.  Our 
2009 Washington Seminar will run from Sunday, February 8 to 
Wednesday, February 11.  "Please get your reservations in as soon as 
possible."  Our deadline for hotel reservations is January 5, 2009, 
which is only about one month off.



             Following is the information which I need to have to 
assure you of a room at the Holiday Inn.  The address of the Holiday 
Inn Capitol is 550 C Street SW, Washington, DC 20024.



1.      First of all I will need to have the names of the persons in 
the room.  Please spell the first and last name of each person if you 
make the reservation by phone.  You may do so by calling:  (303) 
778-1130, extension 219, or email (see below); and



2.      I will need to have your arrival date and departure date.  If 
people are sharing the room and their arrival and departure dates are 
different from yours, please be sure to indicate that; and



3.      I will need to know if you wish a smoking or a non-smoking 
room.  Also, if you have any special requirements, please 
advise.  For example, if you require an accessible room, please 
include that information.  If you wish to have a roll-away bed in the 
room, please let me know.  If you request a roll-away bed, there will 
be an additional $15 charge per night; and



4.      If you make your reservation by phone, and if you have an 
e-mail address, please leave that address so that we may send you 
confirmation that your reservation was received and processed.  If 
you have no e-mail address, then please leave a telephone number so 
that I may call you back with a confirmation.



             You may make your reservations by e-mail by sending your 
request to Lisa Bonderson.  Lisa's address 
is:  <mailto:lbonderson at cocenter.org>lbonderson at cocenter.org.  Either 
Lisa or I will send you a confirmation.



             The hotel rates are $154 per night for single, double, 
triple, or quad.  There is an additional 14.5% hotel tax each 
night.  When you check in you must be prepared to cover at least the 
first night of your stay with either a credit card or check; and then 
arrange to pay the balance by presenting a credit card or writing a 
check for the remainder of the cost.



             If state delegations will be paying for members with one 
check or one credit card, please advise Ed Cruz in the Holiday Inn 
Capitol accounting department prior to your arrival and he will make 
special arrangements for your delegation.  It is also very advisable 
to supply to Mr. Cruz a list of the names of persons your delegation 
may plan to cover.



             It would also be advisable for you to supply me with the 
same list prior to arrival so that we will all be on the same page 
and this will lessen problems.  Mr. Cruz has always been very helpful.



             Remember please, the deadline is January 5, 2009.  There 
will be a number of special meetings during the seminar and you will 
want to watch the NFB Website for special announcements.  The Great 
Gathering-In meeting will be held on Sunday, February 8, at 5 
p.m.  You certainly don't want to miss that.



             I hope this answers all of your questions.  I look 
forward to seeing all of you in D.C. in February.



             Have a blessed holiday season.



Diane McGeorge



DM/wb




From gwunder at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 10 09:09:14 2008
From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:09:14 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Braille Test at Washington Seminar
Message-ID: <auto-000078291601@mailfront2.g2host.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: Braille Certification
To: Louise Walch
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:42 PM
Subject: Braille Test at Washington Seminar


Dear NFB State Presidents,



Please find attached a flyer announcing that testing for the National 
Certification in Literary Braille will be held on the Saturday prior 
to our Washington Seminar. Please pass this information along to your 
membership and others you think might be interested.



Thanks in advance.



-Louise



Louise G. Walch
NBPCB Coordinator

210-464-6144
Braille at nbpcb.org
www.nbpcb.org

-----



Braille Test at Washington Seminar

Feb 7, 2009



THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN

LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB)



As you may be aware, the National Literary Braille Competency Test 
(NLBCT) of the National Library Service (NLS) has been transferred to 
the administration of the National Blindness Professional 
Certification Board (NBPCB). With the NLBCT as its cornerstone, the 
NBPCB has established the National Certification in Literary Braille 
(NCLB), which is a complete professional credential that requires 
recertification on a five year cycle. Individuals who were certified 
with the NLBCT prior to 2006 will need to retest through the NBPCB; 
however, the initial fee may be waived if the applicant can show 
proof of original NLBCT credential.



The NCLB is currently the only nationally recognized certification in 
literary Braille. The examination has not been substantially changed 
from its earlier version once administered by the NLS, however a five 
year recertification requirement has been instituted in the interest 
of maintaining high standards. The exam is not aimed at transcribers. 
Rather, it is a valid test of a person's ability to competently read, 
write, and understand contracted, literary Braille, and is being 
targeted to all individuals who teach Braille professionally, and/or 
those seeking to be credentialed in this area.



The next scheduled exam open for certification and recertification in 2009 is:



Date:               Saturday, February 7, 2009

Time:               8:00am-5:00pm (Doors close 8:30am)

Location:         Holiday Inn Capitol (Columbia II)

550 C Street SW

Washington, DC 20024

Cost:                $250 combined application/testing fee

Deadline:        Sunday, January 4, 2009

                         (or $275 late registration January 5-25)



Subsequent NCLB examinations will be convened wherever an appropriate 
venue can be procured, and sufficient applicant numbers make it 
possible. Please contact the NBPCB for more details.



To apply online go to:

http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/application/





or to download the NCLB Candidate Guidelines please visit:

http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/





For additional information please visit the NBPCB website at: 
www.nbpcb.org, call the NBPCB office at (318) 257-4554, or contact 
Louise Walch, NBPCB Coordinator, at: braille at nbpcb.org.

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From sek7 at cdc.gov  Wed Dec 10 13:57:07 2008
From: sek7 at cdc.gov (Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH))
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:57:07 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Things to include in a 1st grader's IEP
Message-ID: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C1B@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>

Sandy,
Thanks for your reply.  We have been looking into the gifted programs at
each school we visited with the expectation that Kendra would qualify.
We've been lucky so far in that her TVI has been giving her challenging
work from the beginning.  They have been working together since Kendra
was 3 years old and her TVI has requested to continue working with her
next year as well.
Stephanie



From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 14:41:36 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:41:36 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Things to include in a 1st grader's IEP
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C1B@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <493fd528.1b2d400a.5783.4304@mx.google.com>

Stephanie,
I recommend going to spend a day observing a first grade class at the school
she you wish her to attend. That will help you to think of any
accommodations she may be missing as you observe the class go about their
day. Take a note pad and as the class does things it will likely bring up
questions or you will know the access she needs...make a note of it. Also
ask, they probably have special times, like 2 or 3 times a week at computer,
or library time, or art, or music--visit those too and find out what the
kids will be actually doing. Keyboarding should be mastered now and also
beginning screenreading. Is she also having abacus instruction?

 Also if you do not have Carol's "making it work" get it and take a look at
the classroom set ups. 

Otherwise Kendra's goals should be individualized-you need to get her
personal levels of performance and her needs and build her goals from that-I
would think a goal to maintain her proficiency in Braille and completing the
learning of grade II, mobility that takes it up a notch in
independence--what can the other first graders do-is she missing anything,
take a good look at the phy ed class and their curriculum-get out our
special issue on sports and rec-make sure accommodations for phy ed are
listed. If anything needs to be done ahead by the teacher of blind students
or anyone else, make sure you name them as in (the classroom teacher will
get all curricular materials to the TVI at least three days in advance to be
brailled-for example).

I think it is best to keep the goals to five or less and keep them focused
with the highest priority. Some kids have so many goals, no one can keep
them focused. It is kind of like if you sat down and said, okay I need to
work on everything--I need to change everything about myself. Well that
defeats you as you begin--it is better to identify a few specific things to
work on. If she masters the five then you write new ones. She is also smart
enough to know her goals and to be conscious of working towards them. There
is the large year goal and then objectives and/or activities to get to that
goal.

Also in order to "keep" an IEP and all the accommodations-you only need one
goal. We have had times where all Jordan really needed was the
accommodations, but we had a goal that he would perform on a level with his
peers--he still needed to improve his efficiency and test taking to not use
extra time, we did not want to go to a 504 so we worked for one goal in
order to keep the IEP.
 
HTH
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH)
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:57 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Things to include in a 1st grader's IEP

Sandy,
Thanks for your reply.  We have been looking into the gifted programs at
each school we visited with the expectation that Kendra would qualify.
We've been lucky so far in that her TVI has been giving her challenging
work from the beginning.  They have been working together since Kendra
was 3 years old and her TVI has requested to continue working with her
next year as well.
Stephanie

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ail.com




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 14:53:18 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:53:18 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback
In-Reply-To: <014a01c95a68$4c4e0550$0502a8c0@D5L5WQ51>
Message-ID: <493fd7eb.1138400a.44f5.442a@mx.google.com>

Dear Sally,
I don't know David enough to say it is him, and while some small part might
be age, it is likely more personality and cognitive ability to relate for
anyone I think...but again this would only be part of it. Of course it has a
huge impact if he has no idea of the feedback. I kind of struggled a bit
with this one. We got Jordan access for awhile as Cindy did with Kyle; then
began to wean him off it as Brandy suggests because in the real world this
will not happen from college professors or in a work environment (except now
the future is here and electronic feedback is becoming more common). Having
Jordan responsible to go to the teacher and have the teacher read the
feedback and explain really, really, helped his advocacy and communication
with adults skills--he also got more feedback because often the notes were
quickly written or just checked wrong, when he made time to sit with the
teacher he got more and better feedback. I also sat with him at home and we
go over all the mistakes--I did this with all my kids. It was the best way
for them to learn, I always had them fix their mistakes, whether it was math
or English or science or what ever.

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Cindy Conley
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:40 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] graded paper feedback

We went through this with Kyle. I finally put in his IEP that every 
communication would be in Braille for Kyle. That meant that a graded 
paper had to have comments in Braille. A letter home had to have a 
Braille copy attached. The lunch menu even had to be Brailled.
It was made very clear that if Kyle did not get a communication in 
Braille, he was not to be held responsible for it. After a few times 
of not being 'allowed' to punish for work not being done, the teachers 
figured out that they better give everything in Braille. It worked 
most of the time.
Cindy Conley
cconley at fuse.net

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will 
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
Herm Albright
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy & Sally Thomas" <andysally at comcast.net>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback


> I've been thinking about the fact that my son's papers are graded 
> with a red pen.  Comments are also in print.  I'm not sure that he 
> is really taking in the fact that there is a connection between the 
> work he does and the grade he receives.  He "gets it" in an obvious 
> sense but not deep down.  I'm wondering if this is partially due to 
> the fact that he doesn't get the feedback of seeing the red marks 
> and the grade on the paper.  His teachers say that it is "age 
> appropriate" that he's not too concerned about his grades.   Do any 
> of your kids get tactile feedback about the problems they miss 
> and/or the grades they get?  Is that a reasonable expectation?  I 
> view it as one more thing that goes to his independence and taking 
> personal responsibility for his work.
>
> Sally Thomas
> _______________________________________________
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> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/cconley%40fuse.net
> 


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From poetlori8 at msn.com  Wed Dec 10 14:56:20 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:56:20 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
In-Reply-To: <002201c95a2d$c8489d40$0401a8c0@stacypc>
References: <002201c95a2d$c8489d40$0401a8c0@stacypc>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS20024C775A2CDADCCF2D3EBFB0@phx.gbl>

They have toothbrushes that play music?
Where would you find such a thing?
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Stacy Lemmon" <slemmonrn at spotlight-music.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:41 PM
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions

> Jason~
>
> Occupational therapy may be very useful for you guys.
>
> We still use the infant toothpaste/cleaner by Oral-B. It's okay if its 
> swallowed, and you don't have to worry about spitting it out. Maybe try a 
> spin toothbrush, perhaps even one that plays music.
>
> Stacy
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From sek7 at cdc.gov  Wed Dec 10 17:08:18 2008
From: sek7 at cdc.gov (Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH))
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:08:18 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Musical toothbrushes for Barbara
Message-ID: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C2C@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>

http://www.hasbro.com/toothtunes/

My daughter has had some in the past.  I think it would be kind of fun
to brush along to YMCA each day!


From branlw at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 10 18:12:50 2008
From: branlw at sbcglobal.net (Brandy with Discovery Toys)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:12:50 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS20024C775A2CDADCCF2D3EBFB0@phx.gbl>
References: <002201c95a2d$c8489d40$0401a8c0@stacypc>
	<BAY113-DS20024C775A2CDADCCF2D3EBFB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B00B9765CC2049F3B880B1A6C4B9C2A9@BrandyPC>

Hi, The holidays are the best time to find them. I've seen them at Babies 
are Us, drugstore.com and randomly in the kids electric toothbrush isles in 
stores. Bran


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. 
Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] a couple of questions


> They have toothbrushes that play music?
> Where would you find such a thing?
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Stacy Lemmon" <slemmonrn at spotlight-music.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:41 PM
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
>
>> Jason~
>>
>> Occupational therapy may be very useful for you guys.
>>
>> We still use the infant toothpaste/cleaner by Oral-B. It's okay if its 
>> swallowed, and you don't have to worry about spitting it out. Maybe try a 
>> spin toothbrush, perhaps even one that plays music.
>>
>> Stacy
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/branlw%40sbcglobal.net 




From jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 18:29:58 2008
From: jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com (Jan Wright)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:29:58 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] A couple of Questions
Message-ID: <013001c95af5$4fe2c9c0$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>


You can start by brushing his teeth with a soft toothbrush and no toothpaste.
You can even put his hand on top of yours and show him how to do it.
Let him get the feel of the toothbrush on his teeth and gums.
You can do this with plain water, if you would like.
And, you can do it two or three or four times a day.

"Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
"Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu translation

From jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 18:58:28 2008
From: jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com (Jan Wright)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:58:28 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] toothbrushes
Message-ID: <013701c95af9$4b3a0560$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>

    
Hi Barbara,
Musical toothbrushes:
http://www.hasbro.com/toothtunes/
Hazbro makes toothbrushes with many different songs.
There is a 
Orawave Tuned Musical 2 Minute TwinSpin Toothbrush
Which is suppose to be found at many drugstores.
 
and There is also a "bob the Builder," musical toothbrush that is suppose to be sold at Target and other places where Bob the Builder products are sold.

I can't remember, but I thought that "Speak to me," had a musical toothbrush.
But, I know that sometimes, their products change.
I think their website is:
www.speaktomecatalog.com
Nope, sorry. I just checked.
They no longer have a musical toothbrush.

Alternatively, Jason, you could get an electric toothbrush.
He might like the vibrating stimulation for his hands, also.



"Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
"Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu translation

From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 19:42:51 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:42:51 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Address which addresses the dangers of doing it for
	them...
Message-ID: <49401bfb.09c5660a.39e6.10a4@mx.google.com>

I gave this in Virginia in 2005.maybe it will help,

 

 

 

Carrie Gilmer, President

National Organization of Parents of Blind Children

A Division of the National Federation of the Blind

NFB National Center: 410-659-9314

Home Phone: 763-784-8590

carrie.gilmer at gmail.com

www.nfb.org/nopbc

 

The title of my speech today is 'The Role of Parents in the Education of
Blind Children.'  I'll start by stating the obvious-the whole purpose of
parenting is to raise and adult. Even the best schooling can only cover a
part of fully educating a child. Most of what they need to know, live, and
to MAKE USE of the academics they learn, will come from you. Everything we
do as parents needs to be an objective towards the goal-the end result-a
grown-up. By grown-up I mean, generally, someone who according to their
mental ability, cares for themselves in a healthy manner, contributes to the
community around them, works, is in charge of their own body and mobility,
analyzes, thinks and speaks for themselves, makes independent decisions, and
then takes responsibility for those decisions. Do you know any of those?
Sometimes, it seems we have a short supply.

 

It should go without saying-but the problem is many times we parents don't
parent towards the future, we only parent for today. The same problem
happens with teachers-they need to be teaching toward the future but-and
this is especially true if a student is slower than average or has a
disability-they only teach what they have to in order to get by today.

 

My husband is a high school band director. When his seniors graduate, he
says that their parents fully expect that their children can really play
music. Some parents expect this, even when there has been no real effort or
involvement over the years.   My husband's bands are often rated 'Superior'.
There is no way that would happen if he and his colleagues only taught for
today. 

 

Every student that enters the district where my husband teaches comes to
kindergarten with some pre-existing knowledge of music. That helps a lot.
Can you imagine if the kids had no concept of music at all when they came to
school?  In kindergarten, the students begin music instruction to learn the
basic parts of music. They mostly play, sing simple songs, and clap out
rhythms. Maybe they get to hit some sticks together or ring some bells. All
the while the teacher is naming things, and reinforcing-asking and rewarding
what they already know. Then the teacher adds a little something new, the
next level, and they try that out while repeating what they already know,
and so on and so forth.on it goes and builds throughout grade school. 

 

At the end of fifth grade, the students have learned enough to choose how
they will play music, with voice or instrument. They can choose choir, band,
or orchestra. If they choose band or orchestra, they have to make another
choice-which instrument they will play. Then they begin to play music! As an
untrained parent, I thought these things when my kids started band: They
sound horrible! I don't think they have any talent! I asked them to close
the door when they were practicing. Even though you can't imagine they will
ever play real music when they sound so horrible in the beginning, you know
it has absolutely zero chance of happening if they never practice. So, you
make them practice, and hope it gets better.

 

The students who don't practice don't get very far. They get frustrated and
quit. They never learn then to play music. A teacher can teach music and
give support but he can't make the student practice-there has to be support
and commitment from home.  The students who stick it out and progress
through all the levels play evermore complex pieces while mastering through
repetition the rudiments and mechanics. Soon they practice performing, first
in large groups, then small. One day they are ready to try their first solo.
Finally, the teacher instructs them to feel the music-to play with
expression. When this occurs you have reached the ultimate prize-

 

Some one who can not only play music but can make their own.  That is what
we want isn't it? We want our kids to be able to play and make their own
music.  It doesn't happen when either the student or the teacher just gets
by for the day.

 

Many times we get stuck parenting, or teaching, only for today because we
are so, so busy. We just don't have the time. So, we take shortcuts. We do
it for them.  We pass them along in a rush, not allowing the practice or
exploration they need and just look the other way. The terrible result of
this occurring with any frequency is that shortcuts leave children
shortchanged in important building-block skills.  When we do it for them we
cheat them by creating an illusion of competence which is sure to come
crashing down on the day they do need to do it themselves. When they play
that solo-everyone can tell if they have learned it or not. False applause
for a poor performance doesn't mean much.

 

What message do we send when we do it for them or rush them along? You are
not worth it to learn this? "You are slow; you take too long." "You are
incompetent; you can't figure things out." When we do it for them, cover up
their gaps in skills, or rush them past incomplete steps, they don't own
anything real and complete. Whatever the skill is, they don't know the
trials and errors of getting there, so they have no problem solving
experience with it.  What is the motivation to continue if when the going
gets tough, mom, teacher, or dad steps in?  Because they didn't get to
discover it for themselves, or get a chance to apply it, even if they can
mimic whatever the skill is, they have no basis for transferring the skill.
And, they know when we do it for them. They know when we cover-up and say,
"You did it", or "You are as good as anybody else" and they also know the
secret message is that they shouldn't even try to really do it themselves.  

 

Sometimes we parent only for today because it happens that we love our
children so much as children that we don't ever want them to grow up. We
even do all that we can to prevent it. Sometimes it is the child who is
scared and doesn't want to grow-up. They want the parent to do it all for
them; and they do all they can to prevent independence. In that case, what
you can end up with is a 25 year old monster child in the closet that you
can't get rid of.

 

 

 

 

 

 Sometimes it happens that we just love the innocence of our children; we
don't want them going about in the cruel, dangerous world so our solution is
to keep them from it. Sometimes because of the public reaction to our
child's disability we use the same solution; hide them, protect them, keep
them close and only in highly controlled environments. More than once I have
had a parent call me-they were getting old and now needed care for
themselves-the parent was ready to go to a nursing home and they were
calling to ask, "What do I do with my 50 year old child?"  How could I help
such a parent; how could I help such a child? Can you imagine being stuck
playing Mary Had a Little Lamb for 45 years.what could the possible
condition of this 50 year old child be? And to think it was all done with
the deepest of love and sacrifice on the part of the mother, quite possibly
she had done the very best she knew.  Sometimes, because of the disability
and a complete lack of information or support, we can't imagine that they
will ever make it in adulthood, so we don't even try.

 

In my experience, children who are isolated, over-protected, and who have no
practice or experience in doing it themselves and dealing with the
consequences.these are the most crippled children of all. They are not
crippled by a physical or mental disability-they are crippled by
fearfulness, inappropriate dependency, and an absolute lack of
self-knowledge or self-confidence. All of us have some of the "not my
child"-"that bad thing won't happen to my child" syndrome, I am speaking of
beyond reasonable protections for lasting damage. I think to some degree it
is instinctive to parenting. But I'm telling you the truth, some of the best
results for my children-any of them-happened when I fought that instinct
off. We have to let go and let them, because the act of hanging on too tight
and too long can in itself cause permanent damage.   

 

Sometimes the problems we have in coping with the disability are so great
that we either literally or figuratively crawl into bed with the covers over
our head-hoping it will all go away or work it self out. Sometimes we are
overwhelmed with putting out daily fires, the problem of the moment, we get
stuck there-and we can zero in like a torpedo-exhausted, frustrated, scared
to death that this has to be fixed or my child will never make it-the
situation often explodes in our faces and then there we are-back in bed with
the cover over our head again.

 

 

 I think this primarily happens because we don't really understand the
disability or what we can do that will really make a difference. We are
scared, and we love our child.  We are powerless, and we can't envision a
normal future, as much as we would like it.  In the beginning, my husband
and I were advised not to make an issue of blindness, and we were plenty
scared.  Well, the less we dealt with it the bigger issue it became.

 

The things I've been saying so far could apply to any parent.  They happen
with the parenting or teaching of children with no disabilities or of every
kind of disability.  This is because basic human behaviors are the same;
around the world, cross-culturally, and across the lines of different
disabilities.  What I'm saying is that you are normal parents, who have
normal children and so you have normal human tendencies. Many of the
problems you have are really normal problems; which can be solved by normal
solutions.  In other words, in many ways parent your disabled child with the
same common sense parenting that you parent your other children with, if you
have them. Parent them in many ways as if your child did not have a
disability, if you don't.

 

Blind children need love, discipline, and someone to listen to and believe
in them just like any other child. They need to discover and do it
themselves, like any one does. They need to pick up their own toys, take out
the trash, and generally learn responsibility like any child does. They need
to be in charge of their own body and movement like all people do.

 

All children are human beings and as such their basic make-up is the same.
We all have a learning realm, an emotional realm, a spiritual realm, and a
physical realm that is human. We all need to; bang on it, chew on it, have
our curiosity stimulated, be safe in discovering it, manipulate it, try it,
fall down, cry, laugh, scream, yell, pet it, read it, analyze it, imagine
it, think about it, tell someone, decide if it is right or wrong or neutral,
be listened to, own it, love, be loved, get up, and try it again. 

 

 All that disabilities do is present access barriers, or challenges to
access, to what we consider the average and normal ranges of emotion,
learning, and/or physical mobility for people. You have normal children with
an access dilemma.  Our kids want to get in, they need to get in, they
belong getting in, they have a right to get in.they just need an alternate
way than the usual.

 

 What we need to do is to provide alternate access that provides the best
access so that their whole person-meaning emotion, intellect, spirit, and
physical mobility are all independently controlled and utilized are far as
possible.

 

We have about 20 years or so to grow up; it is a long time that goes by very
fast. We take much longer to grow up than any other living thing on the
planet-it because we are, by far, the most complex thing on the planet! We
need those twenty years! In the first five, we basically know everything we
need to know to get along in life. Then we need about fifteen more years for
depth, practice, refinement, and expansion of our basic knowledge. There is
a lot to do, especially if there are access challenges. But make no mistake,
the growing up is inevitable-and the consequences of not preparing for it
are disastrous both for the parents and the child.

 

Some of you may be near the end of the twenty years-and are getting very
anxious. Some of you may be only beginning and have nearly twenty years to
go.  I could easily say; I wish I knew ten years ago what I know today, it
would have saved my self and my family a lot of grief. Where ever you are in
the raising of your child-DO NOT-beat yourself up about yesterday, or waste
time and energy feeling guilty or wishing you knew more sooner.  We all have
done the best with what we knew, that is all anyone can do. Yesterday is
over, but tomorrow is on its way.  You cannot redo yesterday but you always
have a great deal that you can do about tomorrow.

 

One thing that I hope you will begin new today is to have new dreams for
your child.  Parents of children with disabilities sometimes quit dreaming
altogether for their child. In some extreme cases, such as with a known
shortened life-span or very significant developmental delays, part of that
may be real acceptance.  But, if your child is alive today-then get a dream
for today.  If your child will always comprehend on the level of a very
young child, then give him the dreams of a young child. Too often the dreams
are washed away by immobilizing grief and a lack of understanding what the
disability prevents-and what it does not. When we quit dreaming for our
children, we quit preparing them. When we do that, we quit expecting things
from them.  And when we do that, we quit listening to them. When we do that,
their own capacity to dream dies.  That, is a terrible thing.

 

 

I am aware that some of the parents here today have children who are blind,
but who also have at least one other disability. Our primary focus here
today is on blindness, and that is what the remainder of my time will focus
on too.  But I want to say something just to you for a minute. Many times
blindness in combination with other disabilities seems like the least
significant challenge, and they may well be true.  But, because of
misunderstandings about blindness, expectations in general are lowered.
Here there is a real risk that too often things are done for the child that
he/she may learn to do independently with a non-visual technique. But,
nobody thinks of it because they don't realize all the normal things blind
people regularly do.

  

When you have a multi-disabled child you must know each disability
accurately. Go to people who have the same disability or who have raised
people with the same disability. You need to know the alternatives to access
for each disability. We have good resources in the National Organization of
Blind Children and the NFB has blind members who are multi-disabled-some of
them are professional people as well. Get contact info from us before you
leave today. It is easy to get caught up dealing with the disability that
presents the most momentary demanding challenge, or the most socially
inappropriate symptoms or urgent health needs. Sometimes it is right to
focus temporarily on one issue, but remain aware that it should be
temporary. Focusing on one disability to the exclusion of another will cause
a crucial access area to be denied and access problems may also be
misinterpreted. That can compound the challenges with all presenting
disabilities that the child may have.  A blind child who isn't given
non-visual learning opportunities will definitely become bored and we know
how behavior can deteriorate when human beings are bored.  If blindness
isn't understood then the behavior stemming from boredom, due to a lack of
learning opportunities, could be misinterpreted. Then the child isn't
helped.

 

Not only should the parent know each disability, but every classroom teacher
should have a general idea of what each is, and what it isn't. Then there
should be a specialized teacher familiar with each disability to work with
the child.  And everyone should be talking, so one hand knows what the other
is doing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For those of us who have children in special education.well sometimes it
seems we have to be checking up on follow-through everyday.  Those three
capital letters, IEP, which were supposed to make a wonderful individual
plan for each child to ensure they had complete access to learning towards
their own potentials, has turned into a nightmare for many parents, 

 

 

To be quite honest, I don't really feel like talking about IEP's today
because we have been working on Jordan's most recent one since last
February.  We turned it down as inappropriate three times, and had some
unpleasant letter exchanges over the summer, We went to mediation a month
ago, and have our next scheduled IEP meeting in two weeks, The last IEP that
came in the mail sat on our dining room table a week before I even opened
it. I just couldn't do it. I knew I was going to be sick, and mad, and it
was going to still be wrong, and so I just kept walking around it wishing it
would go away. I am battle fatigued, but we haven't given up I want you to
know that.  I think a hearing is a real last resort, I feel like I would
rather have all my teeth pulled out than go through one.but sometimes it has
to be done. We are lucky in that we live near an NFB adjustment to blindness
training center and I also work there. We have been able to get our son
Jordan the training he needs there.  Otherwise, I'm afraid we would be
talking about a hearing.

 

Part of our job as parents is to speak and sometimes fight for our children
while we teach them to speak and fight for themselves. By fight, I don't
mean swearing and pounding your fist on the table. I mean fight them with
knowledge, with what is right, with reason, and the law. You have to be even
more professional acting than they are; sometimes their behavior is so poor
that isn't hard to do. What I would advise, is that you look for goals that
get you where you really want to go in the future. Don't get stuck in small
steps. That is what the objectives and activities are for.

 

 Dr. Schroeder just advised me on this. If you don't know who he is, I
didn't once either. He is now the President of the NFB of Virginia. He is an
absolute genius when it comes to education..I mean he has a genius
educational mind. And his resume is probably ten or more pages long, I'm
sure.  Have a goal that says Johnny or Sally will achieve and perform in all
academic areas according to their intellectual capabilities.

 

 

 So, if Johnny can intellectually comprehend third grade material then he
should be reading as the other third graders are.  Twenty words a minute
under a CCTV or in large print isn't the same efficiency as other third
graders.they are probably reading 90-100 words per minute.  Johnny should be
reading Braille at that speed too. If he isn't, and it isn't Johnny (because
we have assessed his intellect), and it isn't Braille (because we know there
is no speed problem that is automatic to Braille reading) then the school
better figure out what the problem is and fix it. 

 

 Remember, you want the end result of a grown up, you want them to play
music, they have to give them every step to get there, building, and
building, but always towards actually playing music.  Dr, Schroeder also
told me to do the right thing for Jordan, fight for him first, he only has
one opportunity for an education and we as his parents are his primary
advocates. We are the experts on our son. You are the experts on your child.
One more thing, if it isn't happening at school, and it looks like services
will be delayed; don't wait. You teach your child to read, you work with her
on Braille, math, cane travel,  whatever it is.if you can possibly do
anything about it.don't wait. Your child's unrecoverable opportunities are
too important to wait. Call us. We can help you gain knowledge of workable
non-visual techniques and help you to know how to fill in those visual gaps.

 

(The rest of my time was spent on being an informed consumer of services,
training, and products for the blind as well as filling in the visual gaps.
If you would like the entire address call me and I can send it to you,
otherwise 'part-two' will be in the next issue.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 19:48:06 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:48:06 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
In-Reply-To: <B00B9765CC2049F3B880B1A6C4B9C2A9@BrandyPC>
Message-ID: <49401d02.09b6660a.3871.10d1@mx.google.com>

We have gotten ours at Target and Walmart and Walgreens
I find they are commonly everywhere pretty much near the regular
toothbrushes. My kids get a toothbrush every year in their stocking-even the
26 year old still, smile. My grandma started this, she used to open the
candy drawer and invite us in, then she always exclaimed as we were gorging
ourselves--"Be sure and brush your teeth!" That was her only concern. Oh how
I loved that grandma. LOL
 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Brandy with Discovery Toys
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:13 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] a couple of questions

Hi, The holidays are the best time to find them. I've seen them at Babies 
are Us, drugstore.com and randomly in the kids electric toothbrush isles in 
stores. Bran


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. 
Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] a couple of questions


> They have toothbrushes that play music?
> Where would you find such a thing?
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Stacy Lemmon" <slemmonrn at spotlight-music.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:41 PM
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [blindkid] a couple of questions
>
>> Jason~
>>
>> Occupational therapy may be very useful for you guys.
>>
>> We still use the infant toothpaste/cleaner by Oral-B. It's okay if its 
>> swallowed, and you don't have to worry about spitting it out. Maybe try a

>> spin toothbrush, perhaps even one that plays music.
>>
>> Stacy
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.co
m
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/branlw%40sbcglobal
.net 


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 00:07:40 2008
From: jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com (Jan Wright)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:07:40 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Educational toys/games for all ages (Sorry so long)
Message-ID: <000c01c95b24$7ca5f110$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>


Hi all,
Since all of you are getting gifts for your blind children, I was wondering if we could post our favorite sources for toys/games that are accessible.
(Okay, you caught me, I have not done much shopping, yet).
I have two  blind friends who enjoy math and math oriented puzzles. At first, I was looking for Kakuro or Sudoku in an accessible format.  
I would like to get them a handheld accessible game.
I know that there are accessible games for the computer.
But, I am looking for something that is handheld and could be for one or two players.
Yes, my friends are adults, but teens might like these suggestions, as well.
I know that Brandy is the "Discovery Toy" rep.
 I know that there is:
http://www.beyondsight.com
http://www.braillebookstore.com
http://www.aph.org
But, are there any new resources that I am not aware of?
Thanks.
BTW.,
We have been cleaning out the game cabinet.
(not, **we**, it is **I**).
I have a monopoly game board in braille and all of the property mortgage cards, chance cards and community chest cards in braille.
I must admit: the money has been used for our 
"home economy game," so it may not all be present.
The houses and hotels and game pieces have been used in other games.
However, if anyone could use the braille board and the braille cards, let me know.
I just checked on the beyond sight website and the braille monopoly game is about $65.
If someone was looking to buy a braille monopoly  game and already had the print one, then, I could send you what I have and you could put the two together.
But, I realize that I don't have the entire game and I am sorry for that.
If someone can use it:  great!
If not, that is okay.
Just putting it out there.
Jan and family
 



"Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
"Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu translation

From Kassyp36 at msn.com  Thu Dec 11 01:27:20 2008
From: Kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:27:20 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] unreliability of low vision
In-Reply-To: <b25cf0c50812081828h5ab5ec56t89051fe1de4190a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3BA97EC9-8964-4BFA-BA49-8A921734E7D4@somazen.com><493d3b36.1138400a.44f5.429c@mx.google.com>
	<b25cf0c50812081828h5ab5ec56t89051fe1de4190a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL0-DAV3719693DBAB67925F89E38C3F80@phx.gbl>

Rene,

I understand where you are coming from.  I have had some residual vision all
my life, and people treated me like I was the greatest thing in the world
because I could see something.  Everyone placed so much emphasis on what I
could see that little attention was paid to what I could learn through my
other senses.  I try not to emphasize what Andrew can see, but my family
like to point out what he can see more than I or the opposite.  Becky is to
tally blind, and I don't seem to have that same problem with her.  I get so
tired of people asking me what I can see.  Just my thoughts.  

Kasondra Payne






From eteply at cfl.rr.com  Wed Dec 10 19:08:47 2008
From: eteply at cfl.rr.com (Erin Teply)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:08:47 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Musical toothbrushes for Barbara
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C2C@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C2C@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <7545560E-4867-4CBB-BCB9-AB21104618C2@cfl.rr.com>

I know Walgreens has them in our area too.

On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH)  
wrote:

> http://www.hasbro.com/toothtunes/
>
> My daughter has had some in the past.  I think it would be kind of fun
> to brush along to YMCA each day!
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/eteply%40cfl.rr.com




From dblair2525 at msn.com  Thu Dec 11 03:17:00 2008
From: dblair2525 at msn.com (Patricia Renfranz)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:17:00 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Educational toys/games for all ages (Sorry so long)
In-Reply-To: <000c01c95b24$7ca5f110$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP99FDCC604CD4CF33D8520D5F80@phx.gbl>

>From APH, for a slightly nerdy gift, I would recommend "World Maps." This is
a book of tactile maps of all the continents, regions, and countries of the
world. It's expensive, but we have found it to be an excellent, high-quality
resource, and Caroline has even had fun discovering things about the world
with it.  If your child's school doesn't have one, it should. Here's some
info on it from APH: World Maps are reproduced from original high-quality
works by The Princeton Braillists.... The maps include rivers, mountain
ranges, bodies of water, and other physical features, and country borders
and capital cities. Labeled in braille, the facing pages have key
information in braille and large print.
5-06001-00 -- $78.00

Also, for the preschool or young child, there's a seller on E-bay named
Bjornskov who modifies books, games, toys with Braille to sell at reasonable
prices. We have purchased some of her items over the years with great
success.

Suduko: Caroline  has a puzzle book from National Braille Press (and has
also had to do puzzles for school). She and her dad found that one way to
keep track of possible numbers was to use a gameboard from 4-way countdown;
it has numbered keys, which I had Brailled, that can be flipped up or down.
Then she used APH stick on letters or numbers to mark her final answers.

Happy Hunting,
Pat
--
dblair2525 at msn.com
801-582-2293 



> From: Jan Wright <jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:07:40 -0500
> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [blindkid] Educational toys/games for all ages (Sorry so long)
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> Since all of you are getting gifts for your blind children, I was wondering if
> we could post our favorite sources for toys/games that are accessible.
> (Okay, you caught me, I have not done much shopping, yet).
> I have two  blind friends who enjoy math and math oriented puzzles. At first,
> I was looking for Kakuro or Sudoku in an accessible format.
> I would like to get them a handheld accessible game.
> I know that there are accessible games for the computer.
> But, I am looking for something that is handheld and could be for one or two
> players.
> Yes, my friends are adults, but teens might like these suggestions, as well.
> I know that Brandy is the "Discovery Toy" rep.
>  I know that there is:
> http://www.beyondsight.com
> http://www.braillebookstore.com
> http://www.aph.org
> But, are there any new resources that I am not aware of?
> Thanks.
> BTW.,
> We have been cleaning out the game cabinet.
> (not, **we**, it is **I**).
> I have a monopoly game board in braille and all of the property mortgage
> cards, chance cards and community chest cards in braille.
> I must admit: the money has been used for our
> "home economy game," so it may not all be present.
> The houses and hotels and game pieces have been used in other games.
> However, if anyone could use the braille board and the braille cards, let me
> know.
> I just checked on the beyond sight website and the braille monopoly game is
> about $65.
> If someone was looking to buy a braille monopoly  game and already had the
> print one, then, I could send you what I have and you could put the two
> together.
> But, I realize that I don't have the entire game and I am sorry for that.
> If someone can use it:  great!
> If not, that is okay.
> Just putting it out there.
> Jan and family
>  
> 
> 
> 
> "Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
> "Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu
> translation
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dblair2525%40msn.com





From branlw at sbcglobal.net  Thu Dec 11 20:29:46 2008
From: branlw at sbcglobal.net (Brandy with Discovery Toys)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:29:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Educational toys/games for all ages (Sorry so long)
In-Reply-To: <000c01c95b24$7ca5f110$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
References: <000c01c95b24$7ca5f110$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
Message-ID: <003103BCFA8F43E2864AEBE03201C8CA@BrandyPC>

Hi, If you find something on my webpage www.playtoachieve.com you have till 
the 12 of Dec. to get it on time for Christmas. I'd recommend Stormy seas 
for the brain teasers on  your list. For those who have some vision I 
recommend tricky fingers. Hope this helps some. Bran


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. 
Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jan Wright" <jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 6:07 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Educational toys/games for all ages (Sorry so long)


>
> Hi all,
> Since all of you are getting gifts for your blind children, I was 
> wondering if we could post our favorite sources for toys/games that are 
> accessible.
> (Okay, you caught me, I have not done much shopping, yet).
> I have two  blind friends who enjoy math and math oriented puzzles. At 
> first, I was looking for Kakuro or Sudoku in an accessible format.
> I would like to get them a handheld accessible game.
> I know that there are accessible games for the computer.
> But, I am looking for something that is handheld and could be for one or 
> two players.
> Yes, my friends are adults, but teens might like these suggestions, as 
> well.
> I know that Brandy is the "Discovery Toy" rep.
> I know that there is:
> http://www.beyondsight.com
> http://www.braillebookstore.com
> http://www.aph.org
> But, are there any new resources that I am not aware of?
> Thanks.
> BTW.,
> We have been cleaning out the game cabinet.
> (not, **we**, it is **I**).
> I have a monopoly game board in braille and all of the property mortgage 
> cards, chance cards and community chest cards in braille.
> I must admit: the money has been used for our
> "home economy game," so it may not all be present.
> The houses and hotels and game pieces have been used in other games.
> However, if anyone could use the braille board and the braille cards, let 
> me know.
> I just checked on the beyond sight website and the braille monopoly game 
> is about $65.
> If someone was looking to buy a braille monopoly  game and already had the 
> print one, then, I could send you what I have and you could put the two 
> together.
> But, I realize that I don't have the entire game and I am sorry for that.
> If someone can use it:  great!
> If not, that is okay.
> Just putting it out there.
> Jan and family
>
>
>
>
> "Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
> "Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu 
> translation
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/branlw%40sbcglobal.net 




From sek7 at cdc.gov  Thu Dec 11 22:33:26 2008
From: sek7 at cdc.gov (Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH))
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:33:26 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
Message-ID: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C3F@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>

I've posted before about our disagreement with the county about school
placement for my daughter.  The county wants us to send her to the
school with the resource 
room; we disagree.  Today her TVI told me she was told last week that
the reason is because the resource room school has a TVI there all day
and they already have the 
necessary technology. She was told it was based on number of hours of
TVI time needed.  Since Kendra is a totally blind Braille reader, they
argue she should be at the 
resource room school while a child with low vision wouldn't need to go
there.  I located the section below on the Wrightslaw website. Is there
other language I'm missing 
which addresses this as well?
Thank you.

> 8. What are the permissible factors that must be considered in
> determining what placement is appropriate for a student with a
> disability? Which factors, if any, may not be considered?
> ANSWER: The overriding rule in placement is that each student's
> placement must be individually-determined based on the individual
> student's abilities and needs. As noted previously, it is the program
> of specialized instruction and related service contained in the
> student's IEP that forms the basis for the placement decision. In
> determining if a placement is appropriate under IDEA, the following
> factors are relevant:
> the educational benefits available to the disabled student in a
> traditional classroom, supplemented with appropriate aids and
> services, in comparison to the educational benefits to the disabled
> student from a special education classroom;
> the non-academic benefits to the disabled student from interacting
> with nondisabled students; and the degree of disruption of the
> education of other students, resulting in the inability to meet the
> unique needs of the disabled student.
> However, school districts may not make placements based solely on
> factors such as the following: 
> *	category of disability; 
> *	severity of disability; 
> *	configuration of delivery system; 
> *	availability of educational or related services; 
> *	availability of space; or 
> *	administrative convenience.
> 
>  http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/lre.osers.memo.idea.htm
> 


From s.leinart at comcast.net  Thu Dec 11 23:55:20 2008
From: s.leinart at comcast.net (Steve & Karen Leinart)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:55:20 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C3F@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C3F@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <4941A868.40505@comcast.net>

I'm new to this board, but am in a similar situation with my own son.  
He's currently in kindergarten, and the school system would much prefer 
his placement be at a school that has a vision resource room.  He has 
albinism and 20/800 near vision and is learning Braille as well as 
print.  At any rate, I've spent considerable time researching this.  
Here's another segment from the Wrightslaw website:


In implementing IDEA's LRE provisions, the regular classroom in the 
school the student would attend if not disabled is the first placement 
option considered for each disabled student before a more restrictive 
placement is considered. If a student with a disability can be educated 
satisfactorily with appropriate aids and supports in the regular 
classroom in the school the student would attend if not disabled, that 
placement is the LRE placement for that student. However, if the 
placement team determines that a student cannot be educated 
satisfactorily in that environment, even with the provision of 
appropriate aids and supports, the regular classroom in the school the 
student would attend if not disabled is not the LRE placement for that 
student. Any alternative placement selected for the student outside of 
the regular educational environment must maximize opportunities for the 
student to interact with nondisabled peers, to the extent appropriate to 
the needs of the student.

A more complete discussion of inclusion and LRE can be found at:  
http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/lre.faqs.inclusion.htm

Karen Leinart

Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH) wrote:
> I've posted before about our disagreement with the county about school
> placement for my daughter.  The county wants us to send her to the
> school with the resource 
> room; we disagree.  Today her TVI told me she was told last week that
> the reason is because the resource room school has a TVI there all day
> and they already have the 
> necessary technology. She was told it was based on number of hours of
> TVI time needed.  Since Kendra is a totally blind Braille reader, they
> argue she should be at the 
> resource room school while a child with low vision wouldn't need to go
> there.  I located the section below on the Wrightslaw website. Is there
> other language I'm missing 
> which addresses this as well?
> Thank you.
>
>   
>> 8. What are the permissible factors that must be considered in
>> determining what placement is appropriate for a student with a
>> disability? Which factors, if any, may not be considered?
>> ANSWER: The overriding rule in placement is that each student's
>> placement must be individually-determined based on the individual
>> student's abilities and needs. As noted previously, it is the program
>> of specialized instruction and related service contained in the
>> student's IEP that forms the basis for the placement decision. In
>> determining if a placement is appropriate under IDEA, the following
>> factors are relevant:
>> the educational benefits available to the disabled student in a
>> traditional classroom, supplemented with appropriate aids and
>> services, in comparison to the educational benefits to the disabled
>> student from a special education classroom;
>> the non-academic benefits to the disabled student from interacting
>> with nondisabled students; and the degree of disruption of the
>> education of other students, resulting in the inability to meet the
>> unique needs of the disabled student.
>> However, school districts may not make placements based solely on
>> factors such as the following: 
>> *	category of disability; 
>> *	severity of disability; 
>> *	configuration of delivery system; 
>> *	availability of educational or related services; 
>> *	availability of space; or 
>> *	administrative convenience.
>>
>>  http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/lre.osers.memo.idea.htm
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1843 - Release Date: 12/11/2008 8:36 AM
>
>   


From cconley at fuse.net  Fri Dec 12 01:15:51 2008
From: cconley at fuse.net (Cindy Conley)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:15:51 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Musical toothbrushes for Barbara
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C2C@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
	<7545560E-4867-4CBB-BCB9-AB21104618C2@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001601c95bf7$2cb0e510$0502a8c0@D5L5WQ51>

I was just at Target and they had the musical toothbrushes.
Cindy Conley
cconley at fuse.net

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will 
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
Herm Albright
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Erin Teply" <eteply at cfl.rr.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Musical toothbrushes for Barbara


>I know Walgreens has them in our area too.
>
> On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH) 
> wrote:
>
>> http://www.hasbro.com/toothtunes/
>>
>> My daughter has had some in the past.  I think it would be kind of 
>> fun
>> to brush along to YMCA each day!
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/eteply%40cfl.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/cconley%40fuse.net 




From jtaboada at vetmed.lsu.edu  Fri Dec 12 14:53:40 2008
From: jtaboada at vetmed.lsu.edu (Dr. Joseph Taboada)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:53:40 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C3F@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C3F@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <03be01c95c69$6c08fe60$441afb20$@lsu.edu>

Stephanie,

While I think it is obvious that the law leans toward inclusion in
neighborhood schools where ever possible I am not sure that that usually
results in the best situation for the child.  School systems that are small
and not well equipped to deal with a blind child's educational needs are
ironically perhaps best able to meet the needs in the neighborhood school
because they don't have the resources or caseload to have developed a
focused program.  However, if a school system has worked to develop a
program to meet the needs of a small but ongoing population of blind
children it will usually be concentrated in one school and I believe is not
able to be duplicated in the local classroom with equal effectiveness.  We
went through the same concerns and soul searching with Michael when he was
in pre-K, K, and elementary school.  He had to be bused to the other side of
the parish; a trip that took hours on the bus and required a transfer to a
second bus each day. We had our concerns about the transportation issues,
the fact that he would be in a self contained classroom, the social
implications, etc. but decided that the immersion in Braille, O&M, and other
skills of blindness in a setting where his sighted peers were still part of
the school with teachers who were well trained in the needs and educational
objectives of blind children and a principal that valued the inclusion of
blind children in her school was worth the trade-offs.  In looking back we
made the absolutely correct decision in not fighting the system for our
right to get services in the local neighborhood school. Michael could not
have gotten better services during his elementary school years. I don?t
think I can say the same for the EBR parish parents who choose to exert
their right to have their children in their local school.

Ironically, once Michael's services switched to the schools that he was to
be mainstreamed into for middle and high school everything has fallen apart.
If he didn't have the strong foundation developed in the resource room in
elementary school he would really be in an untenable situation right now.

I recognize that this is not the most widely held opinion but I feel
strongly that at times the school systems are making the best decisions when
they set up these type of focused programs.

Just one opinion from someone who has been there.

Joe


?,-._.-,
?\/)"(\/
?(_0_)
?/\--/\
(_'^'_)
? /\_/\
( o?? o )
?> * <
?_ / /
/// o\ 
/// \_ \ 
//// (_|

Joseph Taboada, DVM, Dipl. ACVIM
Professor; Small Animal Internal Medicine and 
Associate Dean for Student and Academic Affairs
School of Veterinary Medicine
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, LA? 70803-8410

225 578-9537 (phone)
225 578-9546 (fax)
JTABOADA at VETMED.LSU.EDU
?


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH)
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:33 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question

I've posted before about our disagreement with the county about school
placement for my daughter.  The county wants us to send her to the
school with the resource 
room; we disagree.  Today her TVI told me she was told last week that
the reason is because the resource room school has a TVI there all day
and they already have the 
necessary technology. She was told it was based on number of hours of
TVI time needed.  Since Kendra is a totally blind Braille reader, they
argue she should be at the 
resource room school while a child with low vision wouldn't need to go
there.  I located the section below on the Wrightslaw website. Is there
other language I'm missing 
which addresses this as well?
Thank you.

> 8. What are the permissible factors that must be considered in
> determining what placement is appropriate for a student with a
> disability? Which factors, if any, may not be considered?
> ANSWER: The overriding rule in placement is that each student's
> placement must be individually-determined based on the individual
> student's abilities and needs. As noted previously, it is the program
> of specialized instruction and related service contained in the
> student's IEP that forms the basis for the placement decision. In
> determining if a placement is appropriate under IDEA, the following
> factors are relevant:
> the educational benefits available to the disabled student in a
> traditional classroom, supplemented with appropriate aids and
> services, in comparison to the educational benefits to the disabled
> student from a special education classroom;
> the non-academic benefits to the disabled student from interacting
> with nondisabled students; and the degree of disruption of the
> education of other students, resulting in the inability to meet the
> unique needs of the disabled student.
> However, school districts may not make placements based solely on
> factors such as the following: 
> *	category of disability; 
> *	severity of disability; 
> *	configuration of delivery system; 
> *	availability of educational or related services; 
> *	availability of space; or 
> *	administrative convenience.
> 
>  http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/lre.osers.memo.idea.htm
> 
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/jtaboada%40vetmed.
lsu.edu







From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 15:35:51 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:35:51 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <03be01c95c69$6c08fe60$441afb20$@lsu.edu>
Message-ID: <494284da.1f2a400a.77f2.0544@mx.google.com>

Dear Stephanie,
Joe has made some very good points. It is true that in some cases it is the
best for the child to send them to a placement that has everything there and
often that also includes inclusion in the mainstream at the school with the
resources. Getting all the services and having teachers (and even peers) who
are "used to" blind children can also go a long way towards a positive
experience.

But I do want to add that the level of doing this well is wildly variable
and more often than not the "resource room" is not all they claim. I highly
recommend you spend a day visiting this placement option as well. I and some
I recommended worked very closely with Karen and Steve on the IEP and
placement for their child. One of the professionals I brought on board
raised some good questions to ask specifically when visiting. I will send on
to you. Maybe Karen can share more off-list too.

The director of the program Karen researched of course made great claims
about it, but when Karen visited she found it was not near what they had
claimed. The most important point is that this needs to be an individualized
decision and much goes into it. You need to build an open minded pro and con
list based on Kendra's true needs and what they have available and what can
be required. Remember too that getting it on paper is the least of
things--if you get something on paper they resist or don't believe in, the
implementation of it becomes a real monitoring and continued advocacy
issue--often daily.


 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Dr. Joseph Taboada
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:54 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
Subject: Re: [blindkid] School placement question

Stephanie,

While I think it is obvious that the law leans toward inclusion in
neighborhood schools where ever possible I am not sure that that usually
results in the best situation for the child.  School systems that are small
and not well equipped to deal with a blind child's educational needs are
ironically perhaps best able to meet the needs in the neighborhood school
because they don't have the resources or caseload to have developed a
focused program.  However, if a school system has worked to develop a
program to meet the needs of a small but ongoing population of blind
children it will usually be concentrated in one school and I believe is not
able to be duplicated in the local classroom with equal effectiveness.  We
went through the same concerns and soul searching with Michael when he was
in pre-K, K, and elementary school.  He had to be bused to the other side of
the parish; a trip that took hours on the bus and required a transfer to a
second bus each day. We had our concerns about the transportation issues,
the fact that he would be in a self contained classroom, the social
implications, etc. but decided that the immersion in Braille, O&M, and other
skills of blindness in a setting where his sighted peers were still part of
the school with teachers who were well trained in the needs and educational
objectives of blind children and a principal that valued the inclusion of
blind children in her school was worth the trade-offs.  In looking back we
made the absolutely correct decision in not fighting the system for our
right to get services in the local neighborhood school. Michael could not
have gotten better services during his elementary school years. I don?t
think I can say the same for the EBR parish parents who choose to exert
their right to have their children in their local school.

Ironically, once Michael's services switched to the schools that he was to
be mainstreamed into for middle and high school everything has fallen apart.
If he didn't have the strong foundation developed in the resource room in
elementary school he would really be in an untenable situation right now.

I recognize that this is not the most widely held opinion but I feel
strongly that at times the school systems are making the best decisions when
they set up these type of focused programs.

Just one opinion from someone who has been there.

Joe


?,-._.-,
?\/)"(\/
?(_0_)
?/\--/\
(_'^'_)
? /\_/\
( o?? o )
?> * <
?_ / /
/// o\ 
/// \_ \ 
//// (_|

Joseph Taboada, DVM, Dipl. ACVIM
Professor; Small Animal Internal Medicine and 
Associate Dean for Student and Academic Affairs
School of Veterinary Medicine
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, LA? 70803-8410

225 578-9537 (phone)
225 578-9546 (fax)
JTABOADA at VETMED.LSU.EDU
?


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH)
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:33 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question

I've posted before about our disagreement with the county about school
placement for my daughter.  The county wants us to send her to the
school with the resource 
room; we disagree.  Today her TVI told me she was told last week that
the reason is because the resource room school has a TVI there all day
and they already have the 
necessary technology. She was told it was based on number of hours of
TVI time needed.  Since Kendra is a totally blind Braille reader, they
argue she should be at the 
resource room school while a child with low vision wouldn't need to go
there.  I located the section below on the Wrightslaw website. Is there
other language I'm missing 
which addresses this as well?
Thank you.

> 8. What are the permissible factors that must be considered in
> determining what placement is appropriate for a student with a
> disability? Which factors, if any, may not be considered?
> ANSWER: The overriding rule in placement is that each student's
> placement must be individually-determined based on the individual
> student's abilities and needs. As noted previously, it is the program
> of specialized instruction and related service contained in the
> student's IEP that forms the basis for the placement decision. In
> determining if a placement is appropriate under IDEA, the following
> factors are relevant:
> the educational benefits available to the disabled student in a
> traditional classroom, supplemented with appropriate aids and
> services, in comparison to the educational benefits to the disabled
> student from a special education classroom;
> the non-academic benefits to the disabled student from interacting
> with nondisabled students; and the degree of disruption of the
> education of other students, resulting in the inability to meet the
> unique needs of the disabled student.
> However, school districts may not make placements based solely on
> factors such as the following: 
> *	category of disability; 
> *	severity of disability; 
> *	configuration of delivery system; 
> *	availability of educational or related services; 
> *	availability of space; or 
> *	administrative convenience.
> 
>  http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/lre.osers.memo.idea.htm
> 
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
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lsu.edu





_______________________________________________
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blindkid at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From sek7 at cdc.gov  Fri Dec 12 15:48:43 2008
From: sek7 at cdc.gov (Kieszak, Stephanie (CDC/CCEHIP/NCEH))
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:48:43 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
Message-ID: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C4A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>

I should have stated that my husband and I did visit the resource room
school twice, in two different school years.  We did the same with the
other school we want her to attend.  Kendra's TVI was with us for the
most recent visits to both schools as well.  For confidentiality
reasons, I did not want to disclose everything but I will quote some
sections from a letter I wrote to the head of TVIs after our last visit
to the resource room school:

1.  We did not observe any Braille signage in the building.  Doors were
not labelled with the Braille room numbers, nor with the teachers'
names.  In order for children to develop independence in orientation and
mobility, it is helpful for them to have such information.  

2.  There were no Braille books in the kindergarten classroom we
observed but there was a shelf of print books.  When I questioned the
TVI about this, I was told that the children could walk to the resource
room for a Braille book.  Blind children should have the same access to
reading materials as the sighted children have.

3.  The children did not initially have a Perkins brailler in their
classroom.  When it was commented upon, one was brought into the room.
Blind children should have the same access to writing materials as the
sighted children have.

4.  The two blind/visually impaired children we observed were seated
separately from the sighted students in the classroom.  Whether this was
by their choice or not, they did not seem to be integrated into the
classroom activities.  We observed them working with a separate teacher
at separate tasks.

5.  The most upsetting thing we observed at our last visit was a
para-pro placing a printed worksheet in front of a blind child, telling
her "here is a fence, color it in" and then placing a crayon in her hand
and putting the child's hand over the picture.  

When we visited (SCHOOL X) two years ago, we brought up many of these
concerns (lack of Braille signage and lack of Braille classroom books,
in particular).  It was disheartening on our second visit to see that
none of these issues had been addressed.  These were not surprise visits
so our conclusion was that the things we observed were typical of how
things are run at that school.  I would be happy to talk with you,
either in person or on the phone, if there is any other information I
can provide about our visits.  




From debrabaxley at bellsouth.net  Sat Dec 13 10:09:02 2008
From: debrabaxley at bellsouth.net (Debra Baxley)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:09:02 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod
In-Reply-To: <OF172ABBB9.AD19E0AA-ON88257518.005C91A8-88257518.005D749E@sce.com>
Message-ID: <000301c95d0a$d3559ff0$6101a8c0@DEBRA>

With JAWS, I haven't had any success making I-tunes play.

Debra

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod


Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or
using the new talking iPod?


_______________________________________________
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south.net
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1833 - Release Date: 12/6/2008
4:55 PM




From doug.gottschlich at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 15:54:29 2008
From: doug.gottschlich at gmail.com (Doug Gottschlich)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 07:54:29 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP
In-Reply-To: <468980f20811262200v7278ebdcw561b270a9fc9ebf0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468980f20811262200v7278ebdcw561b270a9fc9ebf0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468980f20812130754s42a77a83n47c0e5a78799947b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Thanks for all the comments, especially Mike and Carrie.  You have good
points -- the issue is "necessary", not just "best".  I should clarify, we
don't want to get her in unless she can pass the academic eligibility test
-- and I agree we don't want to use her blindness to get her considered
eligible.  But I don't mind using it to get her a higher priority in the
pool of kids who are eligible.  After all, I don't hear anyone from the
Program Improvements schools or those with siblings at the school saying,
"Oh, we don't want our kid to get in just because they are in a bad school
or because they have a sibling there already".  In any case, we recently
learned that the entrance information we initially received was incorrect,
and that actually most kids who are eligible do get in.  So hopefully we
don't have to pursue via the IEP.  We'll find out early next year.  Thanks
again for your comments.

Doug


On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Doug Gottschlich <
doug.gottschlich at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My school district (California) has a "Gifted and Talented" magnet school
> for grades 3 through 8.  We are very interested in getting our daughter into
> that program when she starts 3rd grade next year, and are wondering if we're
> allowed to specify a particular school in the IEP.
>
> Of course, she must have the academic ability to get in, or there is no
> benefit in her going there.  However, all her teachers expect her to easily
> pass the entrance exam.  The problem is that there are more students that
> pass the exam than there are slots at the school.  The slots are filled by a
> not-so-random lottery from the pool of eligible students that have passed
> the exam.  (Its not so random because first priority goes to eligible
> students whose home school is a"program improvement school" under No Child
> Left Behind, second priority goes to eligible siblings of current students
> at the school, and the remaining eligible students get lowest priority.)
> Since we are not in a program improvement school, and because our daughter
> has no siblings, her chances of  getting in through the lottery are 50% at
> best.
>
> This Gifted and Talented school focuses on "Differentiated Instruction: a
> change from the traditional pace of the curriculum that eliminates
> repetition, relieves students of boredom from work in less challenging
> curricular areas, and allows students to use the time that they have saved
> to to pursue enriching activities".  We firmly believe that this program
> would significantly benefit a VI child's education: repetition is very time
> consuming and unnecessary as she picks things up quickly, and the time could
> be better spent on the additional VI skills needed.  We'd prefer not to
> gamble with odds from the lottery, and want to write this school into her
> IEP.
>
> I'd love to hear any experiences/insights anyone may have.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug Gottschlich


From k7uij at panix.com  Sat Dec 13 18:29:16 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:29:16 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP
References: <468980f20811262200v7278ebdcw561b270a9fc9ebf0@mail.gmail.com>
	<468980f20812130754s42a77a83n47c0e5a78799947b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77C8EAD2677A43EEA68B3BDC2E2F86BD@owner96190708e>

Doug:

You're welcome. These things are worth pondering in that (1) it's your 
child's future that's at stake and (2) the messages you send to her by 
the attitudes you exhibit are as important (if not more so) than your 
advocacy efforts.

In that vein, I'll take one more stab at the philosophical end of this 
and then cease and desist. There are enough dead horses around here that 
we don't need any more beaten. (grin)

AS I say, I don't begrudge you (and, in fact, give you kudos for) your 
efforts on behalf of your daughter. That's what makes you a good parent. 
Wish we had more like you.

But I still have a problem with one thing you wrote below. You say that 
you wouldn't use blindness to get your daughter into the special program 
but don't object to using blindness to get her a higher priority. 
Frankly, this disturbs me.

Let's put this in another context: you are with your daughter in a long 
grocery line to the check-out counter. Someone ahead of you offers to 
let her jump ahead because she's blind. What do you say? Remember, your 
daughter is listening. Do you ascent, thus reinforcing the views of the 
sighted public that the blind need to be coddled and given special 
perks? At the same time, are you not teaching your daughter the same? Or 
do you say, as I indicated somewhat coarsely in another note: "It's her 
eyes that don't work; not her legs!". Thus, while the person offering 
the place in line may be offended, your daughter will learn that 
blindness doesn't mean she's owed any favors or special privileges.

To me, the gifted program is exactly the same. Work your darndest to get 
her in but don't use or even contemplate using her blindness to get her 
higher up in the pecking order. For one thing, she may not know now but 
it'll get back to her later and it may cause her to question whether she 
was really good enough to make it in on her own merits. And what's more 
important, it may cause others -- like potential employers? -- to wonder 
whether she made it in just like everyone else and if they hire her, 
will they have to extend her special privileges or make special 
allowances for her.

I realize this may seem harsh; I don't mean it so. But despite what most 
would have you believe, it's a competitive world out there and anyone 
who says otherwise is probably doing very well by peddling such 
nonsense. You want her to be able to scrap with the best of them, 
mentally, spiritually and attitudinally. Give her that chance!

Warmly (and I mean that),

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington (state)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Gottschlich" <doug.gottschlich at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP


Hi,

Thanks for all the comments, especially Mike and Carrie.  You have good
points -- the issue is "necessary", not just "best".  I should clarify, 
we
don't want to get her in unless she can pass the academic eligibility 
test
-- and I agree we don't want to use her blindness to get her considered
eligible.  But I don't mind using it to get her a higher priority in the
pool of kids who are eligible.  After all, I don't hear anyone from the
Program Improvements schools or those with siblings at the school 
saying,
"Oh, we don't want our kid to get in just because they are in a bad 
school
or because they have a sibling there already".  In any case, we recently
learned that the entrance information we initially received was 
incorrect,
and that actually most kids who are eligible do get in.  So hopefully we
don't have to pursue via the IEP.  We'll find out early next year. 
Thanks
again for your comments.

Doug


On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Doug Gottschlich <
doug.gottschlich at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My school district (California) has a "Gifted and Talented" magnet 
> school
> for grades 3 through 8.  We are very interested in getting our 
> daughter into
> that program when she starts 3rd grade next year, and are wondering if 
> we're
> allowed to specify a particular school in the IEP.
>
> Of course, she must have the academic ability to get in, or there is 
> no
> benefit in her going there.  However, all her teachers expect her to 
> easily
> pass the entrance exam.  The problem is that there are more students 
> that
> pass the exam than there are slots at the school.  The slots are 
> filled by a
> not-so-random lottery from the pool of eligible students that have 
> passed
> the exam.  (Its not so random because first priority goes to eligible
> students whose home school is a"program improvement school" under No 
> Child
> Left Behind, second priority goes to eligible siblings of current 
> students
> at the school, and the remaining eligible students get lowest 
> priority.)
> Since we are not in a program improvement school, and because our 
> daughter
> has no siblings, her chances of  getting in through the lottery are 
> 50% at
> best.
>
> This Gifted and Talented school focuses on "Differentiated 
> Instruction: a
> change from the traditional pace of the curriculum that eliminates
> repetition, relieves students of boredom from work in less challenging
> curricular areas, and allows students to use the time that they have 
> saved
> to to pursue enriching activities".  We firmly believe that this 
> program
> would significantly benefit a VI child's education: repetition is very 
> time
> consuming and unnecessary as she picks things up quickly, and the time 
> could
> be better spent on the additional VI skills needed.  We'd prefer not 
> to
> gamble with odds from the lottery, and want to write this school into 
> her
> IEP.
>
> I'd love to hear any experiences/insights anyone may have.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug Gottschlich
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com




From Kassyp36 at msn.com  Sat Dec 13 19:48:28 2008
From: Kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:48:28 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <03be01c95c69$6c08fe60$441afb20$@lsu.edu>
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C3F@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
	<03be01c95c69$6c08fe60$441afb20$@lsu.edu>
Message-ID: <COL0-DAV103E57E81294BD9FEE233DC3F60@phx.gbl>

Joe,

I absolutely agree with you.  I was bussed to a larger school district when
I was in elementary school, so that I could be in a resource room with
teachers who knew and could teach me the specialized skills I needed.  My
parents brought me back into the local school district when I was in the
sixth grade, and I became the first blind student to graduate from that
district.  I gained much out of these experiences, and my knowledge colored
my decisions when I decided to send Andrew to the school for the blind.
There wasn't that kind of resource room program close enough to us that
would take him.  He wasn't ready for conventional kindergarten because of
his other disability, and he needed concentrated training in Braille, cane
travel, and other skills.  He loves school, and he is doing very well
learning.  Last week, he showed me that he could Braille the numbers from 1
to 30 and recognize them.  This is just one little step, but it is a step in
the right direction.  Stephanie and anyone else, good luck with your
decisions about placement for your children.  

Kasondra Payne  




From Kassyp36 at msn.com  Sat Dec 13 19:51:50 2008
From: Kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:51:50 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <494284da.1f2a400a.77f2.0544@mx.google.com>
References: <03be01c95c69$6c08fe60$441afb20$@lsu.edu>
	<494284da.1f2a400a.77f2.0544@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <COL0-DAV462D6B151F19B065640D3EC3F60@phx.gbl>

Carrie,

You said it a lot better than I did.  Keep up the great work.  

Kasondra Payne




From blindchildren at verizon.net  Sun Dec 14 03:09:48 2008
From: blindchildren at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:09:48 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C4A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs .gov>
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C4A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <mailman.32.1593446441.14746.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>

Hi Stephanie,

I guess you have also visited the classroom in your neighborhood 
school that Kendra would be in and felt that you could picture her 
there.  I like the idea of the neighborhood school, too.  It seems 
that the problem you will be facing is this:  if you succeed in 
getting Kendra placed in her neighborhood school, will the district 
do what will be necessary for her to succeed?  Might they just do the 
minimum and wait for her to fail so that they can prove to you that 
she belongs in the school with the resource room?  From their 
perspective all the work has already been done and things are all 
ready in the other setting.  To them, a decision to place Kendra in 
another school will seem unreasonable.  Very difficult indeed.

Carol

At 10:48 AM 12/12/2008, you wrote:
>I should have stated that my husband and I did visit the resource room
>school twice, in two different school years.  We did the same with the
>other school we want her to attend.  Kendra's TVI was with us for the
>most recent visits to both schools as well.  For confidentiality
>reasons, I did not want to disclose everything but I will quote some
>sections from a letter I wrote to the head of TVIs after our last visit
>to the resource room school:
>
>1.  We did not observe any Braille signage in the building.  Doors were
>not labelled with the Braille room numbers, nor with the teachers'
>names.  In order for children to develop independence in orientation and
>mobility, it is helpful for them to have such information.
>
>2.  There were no Braille books in the kindergarten classroom we
>observed but there was a shelf of print books.  When I questioned the
>TVI about this, I was told that the children could walk to the resource
>room for a Braille book.  Blind children should have the same access to
>reading materials as the sighted children have.
>
>3.  The children did not initially have a Perkins brailler in their
>classroom.  When it was commented upon, one was brought into the room.
>Blind children should have the same access to writing materials as the
>sighted children have.
>
>4.  The two blind/visually impaired children we observed were seated
>separately from the sighted students in the classroom.  Whether this was
>by their choice or not, they did not seem to be integrated into the
>classroom activities.  We observed them working with a separate teacher
>at separate tasks.
>
>5.  The most upsetting thing we observed at our last visit was a
>para-pro placing a printed worksheet in front of a blind child, telling
>her "here is a fence, color it in" and then placing a crayon in her hand
>and putting the child's hand over the picture.
>
>When we visited (SCHOOL X) two years ago, we brought up many of these
>concerns (lack of Braille signage and lack of Braille classroom books,
>in particular).  It was disheartening on our second visit to see that
>none of these issues had been addressed.  These were not surprise visits
>so our conclusion was that the things we observed were typical of how
>things are run at that school.  I would be happy to talk with you,
>either in person or on the phone, if there is any other information I
>can provide about our visits.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From graduate56 at juno.com  Sun Dec 14 04:59:16 2008
From: graduate56 at juno.com (melissa  Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:59:16 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP
In-Reply-To: <77C8EAD2677A43EEA68B3BDC2E2F86BD@owner96190708e>
References: <468980f20811262200v7278ebdcw561b270a9fc9ebf0@mail.gmail.com>	<468980f20812130754s42a77a83n47c0e5a78799947b@mail.gmail.com>
	<77C8EAD2677A43EEA68B3BDC2E2F86BD@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <021a01c95da8$b8eeb3b0$2acc1b10$@com>

Mike.
Those are really good points.
I agree.
In fact, Parnelle digs made a speech to our state student devision meeting about
blindness and expectations, during our state convention.
The point he made is wheterh people give good grades to others because they are
blind, or are we allowed to work for it.
As a blind person, Doug I hope that your daughter is considered for her
abilities, and not because of her blindness.  I just know many adults, that have
been told that they are special because they are blind.  Then they discover
later that they aren't that unique.  Good luck to you and your daughter.

Best regards,
Sincerely,
Melissa R. Green
Hold on to your dream and it shall be well with you.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:29 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP

Doug:

You're welcome. These things are worth pondering in that (1) it's your 
child's future that's at stake and (2) the messages you send to her by 
the attitudes you exhibit are as important (if not more so) than your 
advocacy efforts.

In that vein, I'll take one more stab at the philosophical end of this 
and then cease and desist. There are enough dead horses around here that 
we don't need any more beaten. (grin)

AS I say, I don't begrudge you (and, in fact, give you kudos for) your 
efforts on behalf of your daughter. That's what makes you a good parent. 
Wish we had more like you.

But I still have a problem with one thing you wrote below. You say that 
you wouldn't use blindness to get your daughter into the special program 
but don't object to using blindness to get her a higher priority. 
Frankly, this disturbs me.

Let's put this in another context: you are with your daughter in a long 
grocery line to the check-out counter. Someone ahead of you offers to 
let her jump ahead because she's blind. What do you say? Remember, your 
daughter is listening. Do you ascent, thus reinforcing the views of the 
sighted public that the blind need to be coddled and given special 
perks? At the same time, are you not teaching your daughter the same? Or 
do you say, as I indicated somewhat coarsely in another note: "It's her 
eyes that don't work; not her legs!". Thus, while the person offering 
the place in line may be offended, your daughter will learn that 
blindness doesn't mean she's owed any favors or special privileges.

To me, the gifted program is exactly the same. Work your darndest to get 
her in but don't use or even contemplate using her blindness to get her 
higher up in the pecking order. For one thing, she may not know now but 
it'll get back to her later and it may cause her to question whether she 
was really good enough to make it in on her own merits. And what's more 
important, it may cause others -- like potential employers? -- to wonder 
whether she made it in just like everyone else and if they hire her, 
will they have to extend her special privileges or make special 
allowances for her.

I realize this may seem harsh; I don't mean it so. But despite what most 
would have you believe, it's a competitive world out there and anyone 
who says otherwise is probably doing very well by peddling such 
nonsense. You want her to be able to scrap with the best of them, 
mentally, spiritually and attitudinally. Give her that chance!

Warmly (and I mean that),

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington (state)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Gottschlich" <doug.gottschlich at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Specifying a particular school in the IEP


Hi,

Thanks for all the comments, especially Mike and Carrie.  You have good
points -- the issue is "necessary", not just "best".  I should clarify, 
we
don't want to get her in unless she can pass the academic eligibility 
test
-- and I agree we don't want to use her blindness to get her considered
eligible.  But I don't mind using it to get her a higher priority in the
pool of kids who are eligible.  After all, I don't hear anyone from the
Program Improvements schools or those with siblings at the school 
saying,
"Oh, we don't want our kid to get in just because they are in a bad 
school
or because they have a sibling there already".  In any case, we recently
learned that the entrance information we initially received was 
incorrect,
and that actually most kids who are eligible do get in.  So hopefully we
don't have to pursue via the IEP.  We'll find out early next year. 
Thanks
again for your comments.

Doug


On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Doug Gottschlich <
doug.gottschlich at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My school district (California) has a "Gifted and Talented" magnet 
> school
> for grades 3 through 8.  We are very interested in getting our 
> daughter into
> that program when she starts 3rd grade next year, and are wondering if 
> we're
> allowed to specify a particular school in the IEP.
>
> Of course, she must have the academic ability to get in, or there is 
> no
> benefit in her going there.  However, all her teachers expect her to 
> easily
> pass the entrance exam.  The problem is that there are more students 
> that
> pass the exam than there are slots at the school.  The slots are 
> filled by a
> not-so-random lottery from the pool of eligible students that have 
> passed
> the exam.  (Its not so random because first priority goes to eligible
> students whose home school is a"program improvement school" under No 
> Child
> Left Behind, second priority goes to eligible siblings of current 
> students
> at the school, and the remaining eligible students get lowest 
> priority.)
> Since we are not in a program improvement school, and because our 
> daughter
> has no siblings, her chances of  getting in through the lottery are 
> 50% at
> best.
>
> This Gifted and Talented school focuses on "Differentiated 
> Instruction: a
> change from the traditional pace of the curriculum that eliminates
> repetition, relieves students of boredom from work in less challenging
> curricular areas, and allows students to use the time that they have 
> saved
> to to pursue enriching activities".  We firmly believe that this 
> program
> would significantly benefit a VI child's education: repetition is very 
> time
> consuming and unnecessary as she picks things up quickly, and the time 
> could
> be better spent on the additional VI skills needed.  We'd prefer not 
> to
> gamble with odds from the lottery, and want to write this school into 
> her
> IEP.
>
> I'd love to hear any experiences/insights anyone may have.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug Gottschlich
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com


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blindkid mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
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No virus found in this incoming message.
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From graduate56 at juno.com  Sun Dec 14 06:27:05 2008
From: graduate56 at juno.com (melissa  Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:27:05 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Special child
In-Reply-To: <000a01c94b59$4e034720$2f01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
References: <000a01c94b59$4e034720$2f01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
Message-ID: <02b501c95db4$fc943e80$f5bcbb80$@com>

I was refraining from posting on this topic.
But here I go.
I was one of the few blind children to attend the newark public schools in new
jersey.  I was the only blind child in my neighborhood school.  The teachers
would treat me  as if I was special and amazing.  I remember one time during a
teach/parent night, I had to show the parents how I could find my chair in the
music room.  I remember everyone aplauding me.  At five I was a little
imbarrassed.
As I got older, if someone from the state was coming, I was supposedly the
student that needed to be shown off.  Even the teacher of blind students
practiced this same stuff.  Then when the state wasn't around, I was supposed to
be quote "just like everybody else."  Which also meant that I was supposed to be
paddled for questioning my mother about my blindness, of course that was being
like "everybody else."
My family taught me that yes, I was special because of who I am and what I can
do.
I wasn't special because of my blindness.  My mom had expectations for me that
she had for my older brother.  I think that we should wonder about people's
definition of amazing, and or special when talking about blind people, or any
other disabled person that does things like a normal person in society.  

Best regards,
Sincerely,
Melissa R. Green
Hold on to your dream and it shall be well with you.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jan Wright
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:45 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] Special child


I think that this discussion is an important one.

I have refrained from responding because Carrie did a good  job at expressing my
views. 

    While growing up, I always had people in my family who would say that I was
"special" and "Amazing." This made me feel quite uncomfortable and yielded much
animosity from my siblings. In fact, I will say that it was a barrier to
interacting with my own sighted peers. I shrunk from this attention into my
braille and talkingbooks.  

    The residential school that I attended did not help: I felt as if I was
always put on display for the many tours that frequented the school. I realize
that they needed to elicit donations. But, I will tell you that to this day, I
dislike being in the limelight because it feels like I am on display.  

It seemed that the public only had two responses for me. Either they ignored me
completely which also meant that they did not focus on my blindness, but they
did not even recognize my existance.  or they thought that I was "amazing." But,
this "Amazing" quality did not translate into real abilities. Often, I get the
statement from society that I am "Amazing," because I am raising four children.
Yet, these same people would not feel comfortable with me watching their own
child. And, I was always "Special,"  but not "Special enough" to warrant true
friendship and have an opinion passed the blindness issues. Whether in the pit
or on the pedestal, your blind child wants to be treated like every other  child
and when you do this, you teach society to do it, as well. Also, it allows your
child to develop their gifts and be proud of being "special" for the wonderful
gifts that they exhibit. Thus, their family, their friends and society does not
define them by their disability. And, their gifts are not measured with a
disabled measuring stick, but one that measures all gifts.

     

  

 

 

 

 
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec 14 15:23:24 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 07:23:24 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Special child
In-Reply-To: <02b501c95db4$fc943e80$f5bcbb80$@com>
References: <000a01c94b59$4e034720$2f01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
	<02b501c95db4$fc943e80$f5bcbb80$@com>
Message-ID: <20081214152324.k7uij@panix.com>

Melissa:

I suspect that the story you and Jan tell strikes a chord with many of the blind persons lurking (albeit not always so quietly) on this list. It certainly does with me.

I started out in regular nursery school, kindergarten and first grade public schools in Portland, Oregon. I was pretty-much integrated with the other students and did everything they did until I was in first grade. Even here, I was not treated special for the most part. But there were a few times when my accomplishments were made much of. I, of course, did not realize the potential harm in this until much later. Fortunately, it didn't go overboard. I write this only because it serves to point out a possibly negative aspect of something that TVI's and parents are often praised for: putting braille on everything and the rendering of cartoon characters in paper mache so I could feel them. For instance, when my classmates drew or had pictures of Spot and Muff (Dick and Jane's dog and cat) on the bulletin board with sayings coming out of their mouths, I had three-dimensional paper mache versions of them on the board with the same thing coming out of their mouths in braille. And no
  one thought twice about it. Insofar as I am aware, there was no great consulting team; the first grade teacher did it because she had imagination and thought it a good idea. She had common sense. As I recall, I did most of the brailling for the sayings and the TVI may have done a bit of it. I was taken out of class for a period or so for braille instruction from the TVI. Incidentally, there were only two (yes, two), for all of Portland. This was before the program for the blind kids was ramped up because of the RLF/ROP wave of the 1940's and 1950's.

I write this merely to point out that even something like this that one would think would raise awareness of blindness and integrate the blind child can give him or her attention that may or may not be appropriate. I'm not saying this sort of thing shouldn't be done; I merely point out that even good, imaginative ideas can have their down sides.

Then we moved to Vancouver, Washington, and I attended the Washington State School for the Blind (WSSB). Back then, it was a rather cruel, David Copperfield sort of place (it is no longer; it's one of the best schools in the country because of the work of NFB). I wasn't special there; I did learn invaluable skills including braille music (but not the use of the cane; canes weren't given to blind kids till they were teenagers back then). Nevertheless, we were paraded around to all the Lions conventions, giving concerts for them and for the state legislature. We just thought it a pain in the posterior back then but now I know it was to show us off and garner larger financial support and larger state appropriations.

And I know of a ham operator at the Missouri school for the blind who said that once per year, they had "Lions Night" when they'd operate the station while troops of Lions came through, marveling at the great thing they had done while the blind ham students were expected to show how greatful they were for the generosity of their benefactors who had donated the money to set up the station. Naturally, the kids hated it.

This sort of thing scars for life. If some of you parents wonder at the vehemence with which some of us write, just try to put yourselves in our places and imagine how you'd deal with these indignities which go unrecognized because they are perpretrated upon a minority (the blind) who are expected to be different (either especially gifted or absolutely clueless by virtue of their blindness) and all done not in the name of cruelty or hatred, but, rather, with kindness and the best of intentions. I could go on but you get the point.

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington


----- Original Message -----
From: "melissa  Green" <graduate56 at juno.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\]was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Saturday, Dec 13, 2008 23:03:30
Subject: Re: [blkid] Special child

>
>
> I was refraining from posting on this topic.
> But here I go.
> I was one of the few blind children to attend the newark public schools in new
> jersey.  I was the only blind child in my neighborhood school.  The teachers
> would treat me  as if I was special and amazing.  I remember one time during a
> teach/parent night, I had to show the parents how I could find my chair in the
> music room.  I remember everyone aplauding me.  At five I was a little
> imbarrassed.
> As I got older, if someone from the state was coming, I was supposedly the
> student that needed to be shown off.  Even the teacher of blind students
> practiced this same stuff.  Then when the state wasn't around, I was supposed to
> be quote "just like everybody else."  Which also meant that I was supposed to be
> paddled for questioning my mother about my blindness, of course that was being
> like "everybody else."
> My family taught me that yes, I was special because of who I am and what I can
> do.
> I wasn't special because of my blindness.  My mom had expectations for me that
> she had for my older brother.  I think that we should wonder about people's
> definition of amazing, and or special when talking about blind people, or any
> other disabled person that does things like a normal person in society.  
> 
> Best regards,
> Sincerely,
> Melissa R. Green
> Hold on to your dream and it shall be well with you.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jan Wright
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:45 PM
> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blkid] Special child
> 
> 
> I think that this discussion is an important one.
> 
> I have refrained from responding because Carrie did a good  job at expressing my
> views. 
> 
>     While growing up, I always had people in my family who would say that I was
> "special" and "Amazing." This made me feel quite uncomfortable and yielded much
> animosity from my siblings. In fact, I will say that it was a barrier to
> interacting with my own sighted peers. I shrunk from this attention into my
> braille and talkingbooks.  
> 
>     The residential school that I attended did not help: I felt as if I was
> always put on display for the many tours that frequented the school. I realize
> that they needed to elicit donations. But, I will tell you that to this day, I
> dislike being in the limelight because it feels like I am on display.  
> 
> It seemed that the public only had two responses for me. Either they ignored me
> completely which also meant that they did not focus on my blindness, but they
> did not even recognize my existance.  or they thought that I was "amazing." But,
> this "Amazing" quality did not translate into real abilities. Often, I get the
> statement from society that I am "Amazing," because I am raising four children.
> Yet, these same people would not feel comfortable with me watching their own
> child. And, I was always "Special,"  but not "Special enough" to warrant true
> friendship and have an opinion passed the blindness issues. Whether in the pit
> or on the pedestal, your blind child wants to be treated like every other  child
> and when you do this, you teach society to do it, as well. Also, it allows your
> child to develop their gifts and be proud of being "special" for the wonderful
> gifts that they exhibit. Thus, their family, their friends and society does not
> define them by their disability. And, their gifts are not measured with a
> disabled measuring stick, but one that measures all gifts.
> 
>      
> 
>   
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG ? http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1801 ? Release Date: 11/20/2008 9:11
> AM
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG ? http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1847 ? Release Date: 12/13/2008 4:56
> PM
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
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> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bxfk3rhXV24awNfap7K2eFQKgFqKxPkqMGSd7LF1PVipKo/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From debrabaxley at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec 15 08:11:56 2008
From: debrabaxley at bellsouth.net (Debra Baxley)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:11:56 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Special child
In-Reply-To: <20081214152324.k7uij@panix.com>
Message-ID: <001301c95e8c$cc5dc6e0$6101a8c0@DEBRA>

I am a totally blind person who went to public school all of my life; the
same thing happens, so the schools for the blind are treating you no
differently than the public school children are treated: as fundraisers, we
were told to sell candy which really wouldn't sell, et cetera.

Debra

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:23 AM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Special child

Melissa:

I suspect that the story you and Jan tell strikes a chord with many of the
blind persons lurking (albeit not always so quietly) on this list. It
certainly does with me.

I started out in regular nursery school, kindergarten and first grade public
schools in Portland, Oregon. I was pretty-much integrated with the other
students and did everything they did until I was in first grade. Even here,
I was not treated special for the most part. But there were a few times when
my accomplishments were made much of. I, of course, did not realize the
potential harm in this until much later. Fortunately, it didn't go
overboard. I write this only because it serves to point out a possibly
negative aspect of something that TVI's and parents are often praised for:
putting braille on everything and the rendering of cartoon characters in
paper mache so I could feel them. For instance, when my classmates drew or
had pictures of Spot and Muff (Dick and Jane's dog and cat) on the bulletin
board with sayings coming out of their mouths, I had three-dimensional paper
mache versions of them on the board with the same thing coming out of their
mouths in braille. And no
  one thought twice about it. Insofar as I am aware, there was no great
consulting team; the first grade teacher did it because she had imagination
and thought it a good idea. She had common sense. As I recall, I did most of
the brailling for the sayings and the TVI may have done a bit of it. I was
taken out of class for a period or so for braille instruction from the TVI.
Incidentally, there were only two (yes, two), for all of Portland. This was
before the program for the blind kids was ramped up because of the RLF/ROP
wave of the 1940's and 1950's.

I write this merely to point out that even something like this that one
would think would raise awareness of blindness and integrate the blind child
can give him or her attention that may or may not be appropriate. I'm not
saying this sort of thing shouldn't be done; I merely point out that even
good, imaginative ideas can have their down sides.

Then we moved to Vancouver, Washington, and I attended the Washington State
School for the Blind (WSSB). Back then, it was a rather cruel, David
Copperfield sort of place (it is no longer; it's one of the best schools in
the country because of the work of NFB). I wasn't special there; I did learn
invaluable skills including braille music (but not the use of the cane;
canes weren't given to blind kids till they were teenagers back then).
Nevertheless, we were paraded around to all the Lions conventions, giving
concerts for them and for the state legislature. We just thought it a pain
in the posterior back then but now I know it was to show us off and garner
larger financial support and larger state appropriations.

And I know of a ham operator at the Missouri school for the blind who said
that once per year, they had "Lions Night" when they'd operate the station
while troops of Lions came through, marveling at the great thing they had
done while the blind ham students were expected to show how greatful they
were for the generosity of their benefactors who had donated the money to
set up the station. Naturally, the kids hated it.

This sort of thing scars for life. If some of you parents wonder at the
vehemence with which some of us write, just try to put yourselves in our
places and imagine how you'd deal with these indignities which go
unrecognized because they are perpretrated upon a minority (the blind) who
are expected to be different (either especially gifted or absolutely
clueless by virtue of their blindness) and all done not in the name of
cruelty or hatred, but, rather, with kindness and the best of intentions. I
could go on but you get the point.

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington


----- Original Message -----
From: "melissa  Green" <graduate56 at juno.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\]was
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Saturday, Dec 13, 2008 23:03:30
Subject: Re: [blkid] Special child

>
>
> I was refraining from posting on this topic.
> But here I go.
> I was one of the few blind children to attend the newark public schools in
new
> jersey.  I was the only blind child in my neighborhood school.  The
teachers
> would treat me  as if I was special and amazing.  I remember one time
during a
> teach/parent night, I had to show the parents how I could find my chair in
the
> music room.  I remember everyone aplauding me.  At five I was a little
> imbarrassed.
> As I got older, if someone from the state was coming, I was supposedly the
> student that needed to be shown off.  Even the teacher of blind students
> practiced this same stuff.  Then when the state wasn't around, I was
supposed to
> be quote "just like everybody else."  Which also meant that I was supposed
to be
> paddled for questioning my mother about my blindness, of course that was
being
> like "everybody else."
> My family taught me that yes, I was special because of who I am and what I
can
> do.
> I wasn't special because of my blindness.  My mom had expectations for me
that
> she had for my older brother.  I think that we should wonder about
people's
> definition of amazing, and or special when talking about blind people, or
any
> other disabled person that does things like a normal person in society.  
> 
> Best regards,
> Sincerely,
> Melissa R. Green
> Hold on to your dream and it shall be well with you.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
> Of Jan Wright
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:45 PM
> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blkid] Special child
> 
> 
> I think that this discussion is an important one.
> 
> I have refrained from responding because Carrie did a good  job at
expressing my
> views. 
> 
>     While growing up, I always had people in my family who would say that
I was
> "special" and "Amazing." This made me feel quite uncomfortable and yielded
much
> animosity from my siblings. In fact, I will say that it was a barrier to
> interacting with my own sighted peers. I shrunk from this attention into
my
> braille and talkingbooks.  
> 
>     The residential school that I attended did not help: I felt as if I
was
> always put on display for the many tours that frequented the school. I
realize
> that they needed to elicit donations. But, I will tell you that to this
day, I
> dislike being in the limelight because it feels like I am on display.  
> 
> It seemed that the public only had two responses for me. Either they
ignored me
> completely which also meant that they did not focus on my blindness, but
they
> did not even recognize my existance.  or they thought that I was
"amazing." But,
> this "Amazing" quality did not translate into real abilities. Often, I get
the
> statement from society that I am "Amazing," because I am raising four
children.
> Yet, these same people would not feel comfortable with me watching their
own
> child. And, I was always "Special,"  but not "Special enough" to warrant
true
> friendship and have an opinion passed the blindness issues. Whether in the
pit
> or on the pedestal, your blind child wants to be treated like every other
child
> and when you do this, you teach society to do it, as well. Also, it allows
your
> child to develop their gifts and be proud of being "special" for the
wonderful
> gifts that they exhibit. Thus, their family, their friends and society
does not
> define them by their disability. And, their gifts are not measured with a
> disabled measuring stick, but one that measures all gifts.
> 
>      
> 
>   
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.
com
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG  http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1801  Release Date: 11/20/2008
9:11
> AM
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG  http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1847  Release Date:
12/13/2008 4:56
> PM
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Become a Medical Transcriptionist. Click here to find schedules designed
to fit your life.
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bxfk3rhXV24awNfap7K2eFQKg
FqKxPkqMGSd7LF1PVipKo/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1844 - Release Date: 12/13/2008
4:56 PM




From s.leinart at comcast.net  Sun Dec 14 20:02:35 2008
From: s.leinart at comcast.net (Steve & Karen Leinart)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:02:35 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C4A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov> 
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C4A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov> 
Message-ID: <4945665B.1090905@comcast.net>

I'm following this thread with great interest, as we also face school 
placement issues for our own son.  I'm curious about something, and 
rather than being contrary, I'm truly trying to understand the reasoning 
behind the "resource room" or "resource school" sort of placement for 
blind children, and why we should embrace that placement option.  At 
first glance, our school district seems to embrace the concept of LRE... 
children with Downs Syndrome, CP, and many other needs are routinely 
placed in their home school, with full time aides, pull-out therapies, 
etc.  But children that are VI/blind or HOH/deaf are routinely placed in 
schools with resource rooms rather than their neighborhood schools.  
Why?  I'm really trying to understand this.  To me it seems to further 
the prejudice against VI/blind people (or HOH/deaf) by indicating that 
their "disability" is so severe, so unique that it can only be 
appropriately handled at a special school.  The child grows up with 
that, and the students that they would otherwise go to school with also 
know it.... they see the kid in the neighborhood, but know he has to go 
to a special school because he's blind.  When they grow up, how willing 
will those kids be to hire a blind person?  I'm sorry, I'm struggling to 
understand why this is okay.  I understand that you have to pick your 
battles in life, and that it's best not to battle with the school every 
step of the way.  Perhaps I'm tilting at windmills, but isn't this a 
battle worth fighting?

Karen Leinart

Carol Castellano wrote:
> Hi Stephanie,
>
> I guess you have also visited the classroom in your neighborhood 
> school that Kendra would be in and felt that you could picture her 
> there.  I like the idea of the neighborhood school, too.  It seems 
> that the problem you will be facing is this:  if you succeed in 
> getting Kendra placed in her neighborhood school, will the district do 
> what will be necessary for her to succeed?  Might they just do the 
> minimum and wait for her to fail so that they can prove to you that 
> she belongs in the school with the resource room?  From their 
> perspective all the work has already been done and things are all 
> ready in the other setting.  To them, a decision to place Kendra in 
> another school will seem unreasonable.  Very difficult indeed.
>
> Carol
>
> At 10:48 AM 12/12/2008, you wrote:
>> I should have stated that my husband and I did visit the resource room
>> school twice, in two different school years.  We did the same with the
>> other school we want her to attend.  Kendra's TVI was with us for the
>> most recent visits to both schools as well.  For confidentiality
>> reasons, I did not want to disclose everything but I will quote some
>> sections from a letter I wrote to the head of TVIs after our last visit
>> to the resource room school:
>>
>> 1.  We did not observe any Braille signage in the building.  Doors were
>> not labelled with the Braille room numbers, nor with the teachers'
>> names.  In order for children to develop independence in orientation and
>> mobility, it is helpful for them to have such information.
>>
>> 2.  There were no Braille books in the kindergarten classroom we
>> observed but there was a shelf of print books.  When I questioned the
>> TVI about this, I was told that the children could walk to the resource
>> room for a Braille book.  Blind children should have the same access to
>> reading materials as the sighted children have.
>>
>> 3.  The children did not initially have a Perkins brailler in their
>> classroom.  When it was commented upon, one was brought into the room.
>> Blind children should have the same access to writing materials as the
>> sighted children have.
>>
>> 4.  The two blind/visually impaired children we observed were seated
>> separately from the sighted students in the classroom.  Whether this was
>> by their choice or not, they did not seem to be integrated into the
>> classroom activities.  We observed them working with a separate teacher
>> at separate tasks.
>>
>> 5.  The most upsetting thing we observed at our last visit was a
>> para-pro placing a printed worksheet in front of a blind child, telling
>> her "here is a fence, color it in" and then placing a crayon in her hand
>> and putting the child's hand over the picture.
>>
>> When we visited (SCHOOL X) two years ago, we brought up many of these
>> concerns (lack of Braille signage and lack of Braille classroom books,
>> in particular).  It was disheartening on our second visit to see that
>> none of these issues had been addressed.  These were not surprise visits
>> so our conclusion was that the things we observed were typical of how
>> things are run at that school.  I would be happy to talk with you,
>> either in person or on the phone, if there is any other information I
>> can provide about our visits.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net 
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/s.leinart%40comcast.net
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1846 - Release Date: 12/12/2008 6:59 PM
>
>   


From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec 14 21:05:09 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:05:09 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
References: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C4A@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
	<4945665B.1090905@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CFB04E12F08F4420BA0D07FA0D7A8D59@owner96190708e>

Karen:

I would submit that while your question is a good one, it indicates 
confusion between apples and oranges. Anything I say here will be a 
generalization and generalizations are always dangerous and, to some 
extent, inaccurate. However, at the risk of irritating some with 
children with multiple disabilities (and bear in mind that I have such a 
child), I would indicate that the purpose of placement of Downs Syndrome 
kids and some CP kids in the classroom is for social purposes, or, put 
another way, it's an attempt to make such kids feel less "different". 
Actually, I question whether use of full-time aides and such really is 
effective but that's a debate for another forum.

By contrast, what we are trying to do with blind kids is teach specific 
skills, i.e., braille and the use of the long white cane among other 
skills. In other words, we are trying to teach literacy and mobility 
with the expectation that once these are mastered, blind kids can take 
their places in the regular school unles special circumstances obtain. 
At least for the first few years, this requires a teacher of the blind 
and visually impaired and, one hopes, aides or transcribers who are also 
fluent in braille. Yet there aren't enough of these to go around. Also, 
although learning braille isn't that hard, it is a specialized and 
different skill from learning print and so unless a school district has 
funds to burn (and few do these days), it really is more efficient to 
set up a resource room somewhere and pull the blind kids out for a 
couple periods a day to learn braille and mobility and daily living 
skills if the parents aren't on the ball with these (and you'd be 
surprised how many are not). Ideally, there would be enough TVI's 
(teachers of the visually impaired) and aides that each school with a 
blind child could have its own resource room where the child could be 
taught blindness skills. But this is seldom the case.

The alternative is for the parents to learn the blindness skills and 
help the child succeed in his/her neighborhood school. And you can, of 
course, demand that the child be taught in the neighborhood school; that 
is your right. But it may be an uphill battle. And I will admit that 
setting up one special school in a city for handicapped children isn't 
my idea of a workable solution to the problem and I'd almost rather send 
my kid to a school for the blind than doto a public school where all the 
handicapped kids go. In fact, my child *is* at the Washington State 
School for the Blind.

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve & Karen Leinart" <s.leinart at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] School placement question


I'm following this thread with great interest, as we also face school
placement issues for our own son.  I'm curious about something, and
rather than being contrary, I'm truly trying to understand the reasoning
behind the "resource room" or "resource school" sort of placement for
blind children, and why we should embrace that placement option.  At
first glance, our school district seems to embrace the concept of LRE...
children with Downs Syndrome, CP, and many other needs are routinely
placed in their home school, with full time aides, pull-out therapies,
etc.  But children that are VI/blind or HOH/deaf are routinely placed in
schools with resource rooms rather than their neighborhood schools.
Why?  I'm really trying to understand this.  To me it seems to further
the prejudice against VI/blind people (or HOH/deaf) by indicating that
their "disability" is so severe, so unique that it can only be
appropriately handled at a special school.  The child grows up with
that, and the students that they would otherwise go to school with also
know it.... they see the kid in the neighborhood, but know he has to go
to a special school because he's blind.  When they grow up, how willing
will those kids be to hire a blind person?  I'm sorry, I'm struggling to
understand why this is okay.  I understand that you have to pick your
battles in life, and that it's best not to battle with the school every
step of the way.  Perhaps I'm tilting at windmills, but isn't this a
battle worth fighting?

Karen Leinart

Carol Castellano wrote:
> Hi Stephanie,
>
> I guess you have also visited the classroom in your neighborhood
> school that Kendra would be in and felt that you could picture her
> there.  I like the idea of the neighborhood school, too.  It seems
> that the problem you will be facing is this:  if you succeed in
> getting Kendra placed in her neighborhood school, will the district do
> what will be necessary for her to succeed?  Might they just do the
> minimum and wait for her to fail so that they can prove to you that
> she belongs in the school with the resource room?  From their
> perspective all the work has already been done and things are all
> ready in the other setting.  To them, a decision to place Kendra in
> another school will seem unreasonable.  Very difficult indeed.
>
> Carol
>
> At 10:48 AM 12/12/2008, you wrote:
>> I should have stated that my husband and I did visit the resource 
>> room
>> school twice, in two different school years.  We did the same with 
>> the
>> other school we want her to attend.  Kendra's TVI was with us for the
>> most recent visits to both schools as well.  For confidentiality
>> reasons, I did not want to disclose everything but I will quote some
>> sections from a letter I wrote to the head of TVIs after our last 
>> visit
>> to the resource room school:
>>
>> 1.  We did not observe any Braille signage in the building.  Doors 
>> were
>> not labelled with the Braille room numbers, nor with the teachers'
>> names.  In order for children to develop independence in orientation 
>> and
>> mobility, it is helpful for them to have such information.
>>
>> 2.  There were no Braille books in the kindergarten classroom we
>> observed but there was a shelf of print books.  When I questioned the
>> TVI about this, I was told that the children could walk to the 
>> resource
>> room for a Braille book.  Blind children should have the same access 
>> to
>> reading materials as the sighted children have.
>>
>> 3.  The children did not initially have a Perkins brailler in their
>> classroom.  When it was commented upon, one was brought into the 
>> room.
>> Blind children should have the same access to writing materials as 
>> the
>> sighted children have.
>>
>> 4.  The two blind/visually impaired children we observed were seated
>> separately from the sighted students in the classroom.  Whether this 
>> was
>> by their choice or not, they did not seem to be integrated into the
>> classroom activities.  We observed them working with a separate 
>> teacher
>> at separate tasks.
>>
>> 5.  The most upsetting thing we observed at our last visit was a
>> para-pro placing a printed worksheet in front of a blind child, 
>> telling
>> her "here is a fence, color it in" and then placing a crayon in her 
>> hand
>> and putting the child's hand over the picture.
>>
>> When we visited (SCHOOL X) two years ago, we brought up many of these
>> concerns (lack of Braille signage and lack of Braille classroom 
>> books,
>> in particular).  It was disheartening on our second visit to see that
>> none of these issues had been addressed.  These were not surprise 
>> visits
>> so our conclusion was that the things we observed were typical of how
>> things are run at that school.  I would be happy to talk with you,
>> either in person or on the phone, if there is any other information I
>> can provide about our visits.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
>
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From newmanrl at cox.net  Mon Dec 15 00:10:03 2008
From: newmanrl at cox.net (Robert Newman)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:10:03 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] New THOUGHT PROVOKER #140- McGoo'd
Message-ID: <662DEE4F1EFB4CF89E3A436711F3CB94@D78R0TG1>

Blindkid 
RE:  McGoo'd

Here is a great topic for discussion. In fact, it was all the discussion
which came about as the movie "Blindness" hit the silver screen, that this
take on it developed in my thoughts. Take a read and see if you too have
been affected by a blind character as portrayed in a movie or on TV. If you
have not read the PROVOKER, it follows.  Recall that I collect responses and
post them upon my web site for all the WWW to read and learn from and that
URL is- Http://thoughtprovoker.info <http://thoughtprovoker.info/>   If you
wish to receive THOUGHT PROVOKERS sent directly to you, just write me and
ask, at-  newmanrl at cox.net 



THOUGHT PROVOKER 140
McGoo'd

"Whoa, that's a big honking screen for a laptop!"

"Yeah, I like to be able to sit back and be comfortable." Dempsey was
showing off his computer to a new friend. He was attending a summer program
for blind teens of high school age. Rapidly he reduced the enlargement of
the text he'd been studying. "I was checking out the details of the pics and
diagrams we need to use for our group project," he lied; he didn't think it
would be cool in this group to be the one using the biggest enlargement.
Squinting now, he forged ahead, getting only a part of what scrolled by.
Next to him, a tiny earphone voice running at triple speed told him his
neighbor was back to reading via her screen enlargement software's voice.

"Everyone finished? They want us back in the main hall in five minutes,"
said Kelly, the group's elected leader and the only one of them who was
totally blind.

Dempsey's ego hurt a little for not being chosen for lead. But deep down he
knew he probably would not be able to outdo some of these guys, no matter if
he could see better than them or not.

"Yo!  Done and got my notes Brailled up," answered Mark, putting his slate
back in his laptop case.

That Braille thing was something Dempsey just didn't get. He had visited
with Mark and knew the two of them had about the same vision. Dempsey and
his parents had always opted for print, wanting him to fit into the
mainstream.

"Hey, let's settle on who is going to present which part of the report,"
Kelsey said. "I've got to write out the specifics of what I say."

"I'll handle the second section," Dempsey volunteered. He hadn't gotten much
further than that in his study of the material; he was a good student, but
these guys had gotten through the four sections of readings faster. And
while the rest was being organized, he quickly wrote out a few notes with a
heavy marker. He knew he'd better not even try to read from prepared notes;
he'd gotten teased at the school where he was the only blind student
("Smelling or reading it, Dempsey?").

Presentations completed, the group was given a one-hour break. Someone
suggested, "Let's go to Mickey D's!" 

"I know the way," Kelly said and took the lead.

"Whoa.we going to go to a light?" asked Dempsey. 

"That would be four blocks down," answered Kelly. "We don't have the time."

"We can handle this," Mark said, leaning forward, listening to the traffic
on the four-lane street.

Out of the four of them, Dempsey was the only one without a cane. He had a
monocular back in the dorm, but even with that, this type of street made him
nervous; at home he had a folding cane.somewhere. He never wanted the stigma
of a cane, didn't need one, because he always chose where and when he would
go places by himself.

"Go!" 

Heart in his throat, Dempsey followed; he wouldn't be left behind. About the
middle of the street, "Ow, darn!" as he kicked into an unseen cement island
and fell. 

"Better take my arm.hurry." Kelly said.

That evening was philosophy seminar. The topic was the effect of a blind
media character upon an audience. "I have a rather provoking thought," spoke
up one teen. "We all agree that when blindness is portrayed in the mass
media, it has an effect upon how blindness is viewed by society. My question
is, if that influence guides how we are treated and if you view that as a
process that has been worked upon you, can you come up with a single term
that captures the essence of which specific blind cult figure that's been
applied to you?"

Dempsey got it right away, but wasn't sure he was ready to share it. This
day had brought it home to him-these guys had blindness skills, confidence,
knew where in life they were going!  They were competent blind people and he
was basically an inferior sighted person. "Yeah, I've been McGoo'd."



Robert Leslie Newman 
Email- newmanrl at cox.net
THOUGHT PROVOKER Website- 
Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info



From jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 01:12:45 2008
From: jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com (Jan Wright)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:12:45 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] special child
Message-ID: <006e01c95e52$3dbe9840$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>


Mike,
Amen!
I know that our experiences have shaped who we are and how we view things.
Because people are admittedly doing more work to make things accessible
and
because sometimes it might take the blind student a bit longer to master a certain task
and
because more money might be involved in education:
these attitudes are quite prevalent within society.
Yet, it is difficult to strike a balance.
I have been to a college that ignored my blindness. There were no disability services and I had to consult with each teacher about how to get my tests read to me and done.
There were no brailling facilities.
Some teachers were great about putting the test on cassette.
Sometimes I brailled the answers and read them into a tape or to a proctor.
Note: Their computers (and technicians) were a bit resistent to accessibility also.
 I did not want to be ignored.
Yet, the more noise I made, the more "amazing" it was and the more money or help that they gave, the more they wanted to be recognized for that help.
I went to university in a small town.
But, I will tell you that small private colleges do have accessibility issues.
What I am saying is that when schools and others have to make certain things accessible, they (most often) either view it as a burden or a favor.
And, they expect you (as the blind child) to respond acordingly.
Jan and family
  
"Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
"Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu translation

From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 01:14:07 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:14:07 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] School placement question
In-Reply-To: <4945665B.1090905@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4945af6a.062a400a.0379.2467@mx.google.com>

Dear Karen,
I don't know many who embrace the separate placement options for blind/low
vision children. Of those who do--well they are usually employed by a school
for the blind. Your thoughts and questions are right on mark. 
I personally feel very strongly about integration on terms of equality. 

Indeed that is what the NFB and NOPBC are all about and our core reason for
being; there will be no security, equality or freedom with out integration
on terms of equality.

We have come a long way. 70 years ago nearly all blind children were raised
in residential schools away from their families. On the other hand nearly
all who went to such schools learned Braille. On the other hand canes or
normal expectations for travel were nearly nonexistent for children. They
got good educations but the unemployment rate was near 98 or 99%. So while
they were educated society would not receive them.  

Today, the unemployment rate has improved to around 74%. While that is
horrific and unacceptable compared to the rest of the population--it is a
vast improvement over the rate in 1940. The very vast majority of blind
children are today raised in their own homes. Some blind person has gone
before them in nearly every job imaginable. There are laws against
discrimination which once were open and commonly practiced-in housing and in
public places. Yet despite the laws, the practices of discrimination still
occur. Blind children are in their own homes mostly, but now the smallest
minority--less than 10% get Braille. 

Part of our difficulty lies in our very small minority. There are twice as
many deaf people as us. There are very many more who have other
disabilities. Some say over 60% of blind children have another disability.
The special ed staff who are in every school building in the nation are
trained to handle the majority. We have a shortage of teachers of blind
students.

While we are transitioning to total integration and to the elimination of
discrimination there will be children who need something today--and the best
place to get it may not be the best place we want for everyone in the end.

Sometimes someone very rural has had to get a teacher who was not even
certified--a para trained well and who knows Braille. Sometimes this happens
due to shortages in large districts too. It is not what we want in the end
but it has gotten someone who needed it a good teacher today. 

And there is a risk while we accept it temporarily that is does not "water
down" or dilute the professionalism we desire--on the other hand much of
what can be taught is not rocket science or specialized medicine-- it does
not require a master's degree or even for many things a bachelor's. How do
we figure this out and plan for the teacher training programs of the future
while trying to get large numbers into the profession today as we have such
a dire shortage? We are talking about these things and trying to figure it
out. We are trying to get the established professionals to recognize we are
equal partners--even leaders at the table, and we have been making ground
there too. But we have a long way to go.

Truthfully, in my view, the educational system for blind/low vision children
has been a total systemic failure of national scandal proportions. It
doesn't need "fixing" even-in my mind it needs to be totally re-thought and
very nearly started over with a new design in order for integration to truly
be successful. This is not because the blind students themselves have
extraordinary difficulty learning, but their access is unique and highly
specialized in that they are non-visual. Many things that our children need
could improve education overall for all children--but much of what our kids
need to learn (for access to the same things) is different-in reading media,
in technology access, in tactile needs, in traveling, in the daily task of
living, including the social realms. 

The teachers that have been coming out the last four decades especially have
had nearly no training in what they truly needed to teach our kids. We have
teachers of blind students with a master's who barley know literary Braille,
don't know O and M at all, don't know nemeth or scientific or computer or
foreign language or music Braille notation, don't know any blind people or
how they live day to day. They don't know the new technologies. This is
changing but it is painfully slow. In my opinion, a specialized three year
course at a community college could turn out people who have had three years
of Braille in every notation, child development, training under shades for
at least six months, extensive knowledge about blindness-its history-and
discrimination and the psychology of prejudice (both in the giver and the
receiver), classes in the technologies and non-visual techniques...just
think what an improvement that could be.

We need your voice and your thoughts and your leadership Karen, and
everything you can give to us. We have much work to do. I don't know if it
will happen in my lifetime, but I plan to die trying...

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve & Karen Leinart
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] School placement question

I'm following this thread with great interest, as we also face school 
placement issues for our own son.  I'm curious about something, and 
rather than being contrary, I'm truly trying to understand the reasoning 
behind the "resource room" or "resource school" sort of placement for 
blind children, and why we should embrace that placement option.  At 
first glance, our school district seems to embrace the concept of LRE... 
children with Downs Syndrome, CP, and many other needs are routinely 
placed in their home school, with full time aides, pull-out therapies, 
etc.  But children that are VI/blind or HOH/deaf are routinely placed in 
schools with resource rooms rather than their neighborhood schools.  
Why?  I'm really trying to understand this.  To me it seems to further 
the prejudice against VI/blind people (or HOH/deaf) by indicating that 
their "disability" is so severe, so unique that it can only be 
appropriately handled at a special school.  The child grows up with 
that, and the students that they would otherwise go to school with also 
know it.... they see the kid in the neighborhood, but know he has to go 
to a special school because he's blind.  When they grow up, how willing 
will those kids be to hire a blind person?  I'm sorry, I'm struggling to 
understand why this is okay.  I understand that you have to pick your 
battles in life, and that it's best not to battle with the school every 
step of the way.  Perhaps I'm tilting at windmills, but isn't this a 
battle worth fighting?

Karen Leinart

Carol Castellano wrote:
> Hi Stephanie,
>
> I guess you have also visited the classroom in your neighborhood 
> school that Kendra would be in and felt that you could picture her 
> there.  I like the idea of the neighborhood school, too.  It seems 
> that the problem you will be facing is this:  if you succeed in 
> getting Kendra placed in her neighborhood school, will the district do 
> what will be necessary for her to succeed?  Might they just do the 
> minimum and wait for her to fail so that they can prove to you that 
> she belongs in the school with the resource room?  From their 
> perspective all the work has already been done and things are all 
> ready in the other setting.  To them, a decision to place Kendra in 
> another school will seem unreasonable.  Very difficult indeed.
>
> Carol
>
> At 10:48 AM 12/12/2008, you wrote:
>> I should have stated that my husband and I did visit the resource room
>> school twice, in two different school years.  We did the same with the
>> other school we want her to attend.  Kendra's TVI was with us for the
>> most recent visits to both schools as well.  For confidentiality
>> reasons, I did not want to disclose everything but I will quote some
>> sections from a letter I wrote to the head of TVIs after our last visit
>> to the resource room school:
>>
>> 1.  We did not observe any Braille signage in the building.  Doors were
>> not labelled with the Braille room numbers, nor with the teachers'
>> names.  In order for children to develop independence in orientation and
>> mobility, it is helpful for them to have such information.
>>
>> 2.  There were no Braille books in the kindergarten classroom we
>> observed but there was a shelf of print books.  When I questioned the
>> TVI about this, I was told that the children could walk to the resource
>> room for a Braille book.  Blind children should have the same access to
>> reading materials as the sighted children have.
>>
>> 3.  The children did not initially have a Perkins brailler in their
>> classroom.  When it was commented upon, one was brought into the room.
>> Blind children should have the same access to writing materials as the
>> sighted children have.
>>
>> 4.  The two blind/visually impaired children we observed were seated
>> separately from the sighted students in the classroom.  Whether this was
>> by their choice or not, they did not seem to be integrated into the
>> classroom activities.  We observed them working with a separate teacher
>> at separate tasks.
>>
>> 5.  The most upsetting thing we observed at our last visit was a
>> para-pro placing a printed worksheet in front of a blind child, telling
>> her "here is a fence, color it in" and then placing a crayon in her hand
>> and putting the child's hand over the picture.
>>
>> When we visited (SCHOOL X) two years ago, we brought up many of these
>> concerns (lack of Braille signage and lack of Braille classroom books,
>> in particular).  It was disheartening on our second visit to see that
>> none of these issues had been addressed.  These were not surprise visits
>> so our conclusion was that the things we observed were typical of how
>> things are run at that school.  I would be happy to talk with you,
>> either in person or on the phone, if there is any other information I
>> can provide about our visits.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>>
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rizon.net 
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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12/12/2008 6:59 PM
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ail.com




From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Dec 15 01:40:48 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:40:48 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] special child
In-Reply-To: <006e01c95e52$3dbe9840$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
References: <006e01c95e52$3dbe9840$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
Message-ID: <20081215014048.k7uij@panix.com>

Jan:

Actually, I think you had the better deal arranging your own accmmodations. I did also as when I went to college forty years ago, no had even thought about DSS offices and people assumed (rightly, in my view) that it was up to me to arrange for the help I needed. That's the way things still should be in my view sinc" all the accommodations blind students routinely receive these days are virtually nonexistent in the world outside of academia.

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Wright" <jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com>
To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, Dec 14, 2008 17:19:14
Subject: [blkid] special child

>
>
> 
> Mike,
> Amen!
> I know that our experiences have shaped who we are and how we view things.
> Because people are admittedly doing more work to make things accessible
> and
> because sometimes it might take the blind student a bit longer to master a certain task
> and
> because more money might be involved in education:
> these attitudes are quite prevalent within society.
> Yet, it is difficult to strike a balance.
> I have been to a college that ignored my blindness. There were no disability services and I had to consult with each teacher about how to get my tests read to me and done.
> There were no brailling facilities.
> Some teachers were great about putting the test on cassette.
> Sometimes I brailled the answers and read them into a tape or to a proctor.
> Note: Their computers (and technicians) were a bit resistent to accessibility also.
>  I did not want to be ignored.
> Yet, the more noise I made, the more "amazing" it was and the more money or help that they gave, the more they wanted to be recognized for that help.
> I went to university in a small town.
> But, I will tell you that small private colleges do have accessibility issues.
> What I am saying is that when schools and others have to make certain things accessible, they (most often) either view it as a burden or a favor.
> And, they expect you (as the blind child) to respond acordingly.
> Jan and family
>   
> "Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
> "Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu translation
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From JFreeh at nfb.org  Mon Dec 15 18:45:47 2008
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:45:47 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday
 Night Live Segment
Message-ID: <auto-000079108769@mailfront2.g2host.com>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Public Relations Specialist

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org



National Federation of the Blind
Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment





Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans



Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris 
Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation 
of the Blind, said: ?The biggest problem faced by 
blind people is not blindness itself, but the 
stereotypes held by the general public about 
blindness and blind people.  The idea that blind 
people are incapable of the simplest tasks and 
are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is 
absolutely wrong.  This misconception contributes 
to an unemployment rate among blind people that 
stubbornly remains at 70 percent.  That is why 
the National Federation of the Blind is 
disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to 
portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine 
that focused almost exclusively on his 
blindness.  Attacking the Governor because he is 
blind is an attack on all blind Americans?blind 
children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly 
blinded veterans returning from Iraq and 
Afghanistan.  The National Federation of the 
Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live 
to consider the serious negative impact that 
misinformation and stereotypes have on blind 
people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor.?




###






From carol_castellano at verizon.net  Mon Dec 15 19:51:53 2008
From: carol_castellano at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:51:53 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Things to include in a 1st grader's IEP
In-Reply-To: <296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0D@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs .gov>
References: <mailman.43.1228845605.5085.blindkid_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<296CE4A25AA1144580A34323A888857D01B94C0D@LTA3VS001.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <20081215195156.9D668337499@zcs.tcnj.edu>

Hi Stephanie,

A few suggestions:

         * Specialized skills that Kendra is learning probably belong 
in her IEP as goals with objectives--braille, cane, access technology, etc.

         * Since Serena was on grade level academically and really 
needed just the adaptations for blindness, we did as Carrie did--had 
a general academic goal with a listing under it of the   tools and 
techniques that needed to be employed in order to level the playing 
field so that Serena could be successful in the 
classroom.  Examples--brailler, braille printer, talking  calculator, etc.

         * I recommend writing an explicit goal of independence--I 
have some wording recommendations in Making It Work, but it really 
should be whatever would make sense for Kendra at  this time.  The 
idea is to keep staff from overprotecting her and from acting on 
assumptions that she would not be able to accomplish various tasks.

         * If you get your school district's curriculum for first 
grade or any other documents regarding the kind of work they do in 
first grade, you can go through it and see what 
adaptations         might need to be made.

  Carol


At 01:46 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
>On January 12th, my daughter's IEP meeting will be held.  Her current
>school ends with kindregarten.  We are anticipating a disagreement about
>placement with the county (resource room school versus the feeder
>elementary school partnered with her current school).  My husband and I
>want to be as prepared as possible going into the meeting so please send
>along any suggestions for things we should request. For example, it
>never dawned on me before this year that we needed to specify that
>homework would be brailled. We've asked for amendments to her past IEPs
>as things have come up.  One year they wanted her to use a "safe"
>cutting tool instead of the scissors she had already been using for a
>year.  We asked them to include a statement that she was to use the same
>tools/equipment as the rest of the class unless it was agreed upon
>otherwise with us.  If there are other things like that we could plan
>for ahead of time, it would be helpful.
>I'd also welcome input on how many hours of direct TVI instruction your
>child received in 1st grade.  Kendra is currently reading above grade
>level so we don't want to lose any momentum.
>Thank you!
>Stephanie
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From branlw at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec 15 20:59:00 2008
From: branlw at sbcglobal.net (Brandy with Discovery Toys)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:59:00 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Discovery Toys for Christmas
Message-ID: <37DC9BF211EC4C98A718D64A216443B8@BrandyPC>

Hi, Just wanted to let everyone know that today is the last day to order Discovery Toys and get it on time for Christmas with out paying extra shipping. If you want something you don't find on line, or miss ordering on time contact me as I keep inventory and I'd be happy to ship it to you. Last if you need suggestions for any age let me know. I'd be happy to help. 

Thanks,

Bran 


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. Some take us forward, they're called dreams." 
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business 
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more 


From carol_castellano at verizon.net  Mon Dec 15 22:02:30 2008
From: carol_castellano at verizon.net (Carol Castellano)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:02:30 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] graded paper feedback
In-Reply-To: <35DDBC9755F2448D9E40F5760D97AC36@andysallyhome>
References: <35DDBC9755F2448D9E40F5760D97AC36@andysallyhome>
Message-ID: <20081215220232.3640333751B@zcs.tcnj.edu>

I think it's really important for little kids to get direct 
feedback--like little bits of Stikki Wikki next to items that need to 
be corrected, or brailled comments stapled onto the page.  Without 
the feedback, I don't think they have an equal chance of making the 
most of their education.

That said, I agree with others that the next level is for the child 
to take responsibility for going to the teacher after school or 
whenever to find out the comments.  I don't remember when Serena 
started doing this, but I think it was in high school.  That way by 
the time the student goes to college, he/she is used to taking the 
initiative about this.

Carol

At 06:53 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
>I've been thinking about the fact that my son's papers are graded 
>with a red pen.  Comments are also in print.  I'm not sure that he 
>is really taking in the fact that there is a connection between the 
>work he does and the grade he receives.  He "gets it" in an obvious 
>sense but not deep down.  I'm wondering if this is partially due to 
>the fact that he doesn't get the feedback of seeing the red marks 
>and the grade on the paper.  His teachers say that it is "age 
>appropriate" that he's not too concerned about his grades.   Do any 
>of your kids get tactile feedback about the problems they miss 
>and/or the grades they get?  Is that a reasonable expectation?  I 
>view it as one more thing that goes to his independence and taking 
>personal responsibility for his work.
>
>Sally Thomas
>_______________________________________________
>blindkid mailing list
>blindkid at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindkid:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net





From jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 22:10:24 2008
From: jan.wrightfamily5 at gmail.com (Jan Wright)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:10:24 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] blindness & University
Message-ID: <004c01c95f01$f9c3e220$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>

    
Mike wrote:
Actually, I think you had the better deal arranging your own accmmodations. I did also as when I went to college forty years ago, no had even thought about
DSS offices and people assumed (rightly, in my view) that it was up to me to arrange for the help I needed. That's the way things still should be in my
view sinc" all the accommodations blind students routinely receive these days are virtually nonexistent in the world outside of academia.

Mike, in some instances, I did.
I knew what worked and what did not.
I had to assess my own needs and tell the  professor  what I needed.
I had to speak up in class when I did not understand something.
At first, it made me quite uncomfortable.
But, speaking up or not, I was always the "blind student."
And, after I spoke up a bit, some knew that I was intelligent and they might ask such things as:
"Jan, how should we word this?"
or:
"Is there something that we are missing, you think of all of the angles."
The problem came when some professors found it a chore to comply with the accommodations.
Before my Junior year, I was convinced/persuaded to go to Indianapolis to finish my degree.
(larger city/more blind people).
 Granted, professors were not so "shell shocked" but yes, you are right, there were other bureaucratic  issues to deal with.




"Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
"Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu translation

From graduate56 at juno.com  Tue Dec 16 05:43:32 2008
From: graduate56 at juno.com (melissa  Green)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:43:32 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] blindness & University
In-Reply-To: <004c01c95f01$f9c3e220$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
References: <004c01c95f01$f9c3e220$2d01a8c0@homez385jh4h44>
Message-ID: <046801c95f41$3be86a10$b3b93e30$@com>

I don't use the dss office, unless I have to or need something from them.
I have a friend that a professor told her that she needed an accommodations
letter from the DsS office.  She also told her that she needed to get used to
asking for this kind of letter because employers would want it.  I told my
friend that this  professor was full of it.


Best regards,
Sincerely,
Melissa R. Green
Hold on to your dream and it shall be well with you.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jan Wright
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:10 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindkid] blindness & University

    
Mike wrote:
Actually, I think you had the better deal arranging your own accmmodations. I
did also as when I went to college forty years ago, no had even thought about
DSS offices and people assumed (rightly, in my view) that it was up to me to
arrange for the help I needed. That's the way things still should be in my
view sinc" all the accommodations blind students routinely receive these days
are virtually nonexistent in the world outside of academia.

Mike, in some instances, I did.
I knew what worked and what did not.
I had to assess my own needs and tell the  professor  what I needed.
I had to speak up in class when I did not understand something.
At first, it made me quite uncomfortable.
But, speaking up or not, I was always the "blind student."
And, after I spoke up a bit, some knew that I was intelligent and they might ask
such things as:
"Jan, how should we word this?"
or:
"Is there something that we are missing, you think of all of the angles."
The problem came when some professors found it a chore to comply with the
accommodations.
Before my Junior year, I was convinced/persuaded to go to Indianapolis to finish
my degree.
(larger city/more blind people).
 Granted, professors were not so "shell shocked" but yes, you are right, there
were other bureaucratic  issues to deal with.




"Bonds of the Heart should never be broken!"
"Dil kay rishton kay bandhan kabhi naheen tootnay chahiay hain!" -- Urdu
translation
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
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PM

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____________________________________________________________
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From dandrews at visi.com  Wed Dec 17 03:11:17 2008
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:11:17 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: New children for posting
Message-ID: <auto-000079381571@mailfront2.g2host.com>

I have been asked to post this information about a couple blind kids 
who are looking for good adopted homes.

Dave




>When you have a chance, could you post the biographies of these two 
>children please?
>
>ASIA:
>208-75 This sweetheart was born on 10/2003. She has animated facial 
>expressions so everyone understands her needs. She likes to be near 
>people. She likes toys with sounds. She gets along well with other 
>children. She likes to sing along to music. Her motor development is 
>appropriate for her age. She waits for her warm, loving family 
>because she is blind.
>
>T07-03 This 7 year old boy enjoys going to school every day. He has 
>two best friends at school. He interacts well with others. He enjoys 
>playing baseball.  His memory is tremendous. He likes to listen to 
>music. He really loves puppies. His foster parents provide an 
>encouraging and stable living environment for him to grow, but he 
>waits for his own family. He has moderate developmental delay and is 
>visually impaired. This boy needs a loving, supportive family to 
>help him reach his potential.
>
>Warm Regards,
>
>Lisa Trinh
>Waiting International Child Specialist
>Children's Home Society and Family Services
>1605 Eustis St.
>St. Paul, MN 55108
>PH: 651 255 2252
>Fax: 651 255 2292
>Email: ltrinh at chsfs.org <mailto:ltrinh at chsfs.org>
>Web: http://www.childrenshomeadopt.org/waiting_international_children
>Privacy Notice: This communication is intended only for the use of 
>the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain 
>information that is private and protected from disclosure by 
>applicable Federal and/or State law. If the reader of this message 
>is not the intended recipient nor responsible for delivering the 
>message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
>dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or the 
>information contained within it is strictly prohibited and may 
>subject the violator to civil and/or criminal penalties. If you have 
>received this communication in error, please notify us immediately 
>by telephone, reply email or fax using the phone number or address 
>identified in this communication and destroy or delete all copies of 
>this communication and all attachments.
>
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1851 - Release Date: 
>12/16/2008 8:53 AM




From attorneywalker at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 13:22:08 2008
From: attorneywalker at gmail.com (Carlton Anne Cook Walker)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:22:08 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
Message-ID: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:



First, which notetaker should we request?
We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
anyway.)
>From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
entry?  I have not been able to find any.
Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
comfortable with its use over the summer.)



Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna Catherine.
Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?



Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.




Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,





Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Anna's Mom
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice: 717-485-3383



From icdx at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 21 15:42:28 2008
From: icdx at earthlink.net (DrV)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:42:28 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
References: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3203249EF694796B6F0AC8051C79AAC@CSMC.EDU>

Hi Carlton,
Has Anna Catherine had a chance to have some hands on with Braille 
notetakers?
The decision depends on many factors.

My first comment is the one I feel strongest about.
I hear your strong keyboard preference, but let me offer a different 
perspective.
I type on my computer every day. My 12 year old has a BrailleNote with a Brl 
keyboard.
His typing speed & importantly accuracy is leagues better than mine.
My sighted wife brailles a lot both on the Perkins, but also on her laptop. 
When using the laptop, she prefers to use Duxbury & the braille key entry 
because her speed & accuracy makes this more efficient. I am envious of the 
speed & accuracy they have.
We don't have a easy printing set up at home, so I print up Vejas's English 
& Lithuanian homework regularly, & quite honestly though his fingers fly, 
his accuracy is nearly 100% on the Brl keyboard - almost every mistake is 
not due to finger positioning, but rather him not knowing the spelling.
I on the other hand, am much much  slower using the QWERTY keyboard  & have 
lots of spelling errors that I need to correct, because I don't have the 
accuracy in hitting the keys - I am a frequent user of the backspace key & 
am eternally thankful for spell-check  & the auto-correct feature to correct 
my typing errors.
Brl entry also enforces Brl concepts & grade II Brl contraction 
familiarity - its one thing to read it - the brain also imprints when one 
types things out. I think grade I entry also helps improve speed & 
accuracy - imagine if we had such print shortcuts.

Who will be teaching her? Is she already familiar with a device?
If the TVI will be teaching Anna Catherine how to use it, then it might be 
best to go with what she is familiar with.
Our TVIs didn't know the BrailleNote & when we started there was no PacMate.
The California School for the Blind came down & did a Tech assessment. They 
use BrailleNotes. They do a phenomenal job teaching the BrailleNote.
They gave Vejas & now Petras initial teaching & periodic refreshers to take 
them to the next level on features they don't know.
When we have run into stumbling blocks on how to do something, I contact 
them.
The learning curve would have been harder with a different device, because 
the teaching would not have been anywhere near as good.
Then there is GPS. If you plan on using that, get a unit that has that 
ability.

The last thing I have strong feelings about is get as many brl cells as 
possible for reading. In my opinion & that of my fluent braille reading 12 
year old, the more cells the better for speed & fluency.

If you have a chance go to an exhibit hall during a conference. I don't know 
how feasible it is, but the best exhibit hall I have seen is the one at the 
CTEVH conference in California.
For hands on & kid-focused resources, it is in my opinion the best I have 
seen. There are hands on opportunities there & you can probably get some 
in-servicing. On top of that, it is a great & informative conference with 
lots of pertinent topics to chose from - We've only missed one year, & that 
was because of a surgery. The website is www.ctevh.org/conference.htm.
Good luck,
Eric
(Now I'm going to spell check to correct all my typos before hitting the 
send button...  :-)   )



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: <Pibe-division at nfbnet.org>; <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 05:22
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions


> Hi all,
>
> DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
> for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:
>
>
>
> First, which notetaker should we request?
> We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
> Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
> anyway.)
>>From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
> is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
> it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
> computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
> choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
> Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
> entry?  I have not been able to find any.
> Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
> refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
> speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
> realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
> District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
> comfortable with its use over the summer.)
>
>
>
> Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna 
> Catherine.
> Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
> Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?
>
>
>
> Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.
>
>
>
>
> Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,
>
>
>
>
>
> Carlton
>
> -- 
> Carlton Anne Cook Walker
> Anna's Mom
> 213 North First Street
> McConnellsburg, PA    17233
> Voice: 717-485-3383
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 




From DHammelIA at aol.com  Sun Dec 21 15:56:28 2008
From: DHammelIA at aol.com (DHammelIA at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:56:28 EST
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
Message-ID: <bd6.44f865de.367fc12c@aol.com>

You can read books on a notetaker.  Bookshare books are much better on  the 
notetaker than on the Victor assuming you want to read them in  Braille.
 
The Victor reads them with a digital to voice reader that is OK but not the  
greatest.
 
The Victor is best at playing MP3 music files and playing the Digital  
Talking Books from the National Library Service.
 
Dave Hammel
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, 
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)


From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sun Dec 21 16:54:46 2008
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:54:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] [Pibe-division] Notetker and Digital player questions
Message-ID: <auto-000080083183@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Could you comment some about why you are thinking a QWERTY keyboard is a better choice?  It may be, I just see 
less of an advantage if she is also using a laptop and so much of braille is easiest with six keys.  Thanks for humoring 
me.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:22:08 -0500, Carlton Anne Cook Walker wrote:

>Hi all,

>DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
>for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:



>First, which notetaker should we request?
>We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
>Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
>anyway.)
>>From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
>is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
>it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
>computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
>choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
>Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
>entry?  I have not been able to find any.
>Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
>refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
>speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
>realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
>District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
>comfortable with its use over the summer.)



>Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna Catherine.
>Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
>Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?



>Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.




>Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,





>Carlton

>-- 
>Carlton Anne Cook Walker
>Anna's Mom
>213 North First Street
>McConnellsburg, PA    17233
>Voice: 717-485-3383

>_______________________________________________
>Pibe-division mailing list
>Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com










From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Dec 21 18:00:07 2008
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:00:07 -0800
Subject: [blindkid] [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081221180007.k7uij@panix.com>

Carlton:

I will answer your second question first. Yes, the Victor Reader Stream can be used to read books from BookShare. You just download the DAISY or .brf file to the appropriate folder on the SD card that is used to store books and audio content on the Stream. If Anna Catherine is used to Eloquence on her computer using either WindowEyes or JAWS, she may get a shock when she first hears the text-to-speech engine on the Stream; as it comes from the box, the Stream uses ScanSoft's RealSpeak Samantha although the Tom and Daniel (this last with a British accent) are also available. These voices aren't as good as their equivalents on a PC. However, one gets used to the voice quickly and it works quite well although it is not ideal.

Additionally, you should be aware that the current version of BookShare isn't really fully DAISY-compliant so when a new version of the Stream software comes out, Humanware and other makers of DAISY-READERS often have a bit of tweaking to do to get the DAISY versions of the BookShare books to read properly with all their navigation features enabled. The .brf versions read fine, though.

The BrailleNote can read DAISY books such as those from BookShare purport to be. However, it cannot repeat CANNOT be used to read audio books from the National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped (NLS) and Recordings for the Blind and Dyslexic (RFB&D). Aside from the Stream, the only devices that can read at least NLS books are the Icon and the Braille Plus, the latter being an Icon-equivalent from the American Printing House for the Blind (APH). Neither of these two devices has a braille display; they are essentially a PDA with voice output. But the Stream is strictly audio only also. But it's so useful that well over ten thousand have been sold since it's introduction in 2007.

Now to the BrailleNote. It will not be able to read NLS books for the foreseeable future as NLS is deathly afraid of allowing a software-based reader that might enable clever code disassemblers to extract the audio content for pirated distribution.

The BrailleNote can be used as a braille display. Frankly (and many will quarrel with me on what I shall say next), I never found a braille display hooked to a computer all that useful. Why? One must take one's hands off the computer keyboard to read the braille. Having been taught touch-typing in the 1950's, I am loath to take my hands off the keyboard for ANY reason. But that's my eccentricity. The braille display is handy for checking spelling but a good screen-reader operator gets good at this on-the-fly also. Let the flame-throwers do their thing! (grin)

As for ease of use and similarity to a computer's menus, the PacMate is probably closer to a computer or PDA than is the BrailleNote in that it runs such applications as PocketWord, PocketInternetExplorer and other Windows-based programs. And the PacMate runs JAWS as a screen-reader. The drawbacks are two in my opinion: (1) if one wants a braille display, this is a separate piece of hardware that mates more-or-less seamlessly with the PacMate. Still, it's a separate piece of gear. (2) Although vast improvements have been made with the PacMate Omni, the unit's software is somewhat unstable; one must reset more often than I'm used to and although one doesn't lose data as often as was the case with the early PacMates, it's still a good idea to back up one's critical data often.

But then I've also heard that the BrailleNote isn't as stable as I'd like; one must reset it several times per day which is inexcusable in my estimation. But then I believe the software industry has forgotten what real stability is! I program mainframes at work and work-stations that run the VAX/VMS operating system and I have a work-station under my desk that has been "up" for over a year continuously. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, LINUX and Windows!

But I digress. The BrailleNote is a fine unit although, as I say, it also isn't as stable as I'd truly like. It's advantage is that many school systems know it. But to add wi-fi or wired LAN or other capabilities to the device, you'll have to purchase separate cards.

Not so with another device, available from www.gwmicro.com called the Braille Sense Plus B32. Yes, it has a braille keyboard but one can use a USB or blue tooth standard QWERTY keyboard. The voice is still Eloquence and the device has, like the BrailleNote, a 32 cell braille display. Unlike the BrailleNote, however, the Braille Sense Plus has built-in wi-fi, blue tooth and wired LAN connections. Like the BrailleNote, it has email and a web browser and a FM radio. the braille keyboard on the Braille Sense is MUCH quieter than that of the BrailleNote and has a great feel. It has a DAISY player so, I presume, can display BookShare books though I haven't tried this yet. One can stream audio from the Net as long as it's not Flash- or Real Audio-based. Generally, if you can play it on a PDA, you can play it on the Braille Sense. Like the BrailleNote, it records audio although I think the Stream does a better job.

Like Eric, I think you should seriously think about your QWERTY keyboard choice. When the Blazie "Type 'N Speak" note-taker came out (QWERTY input, voice output) Curtis Chong and I thought it was great as both of us typed faster than we could write braille with a braille keyboard. However, I have since changed my opinion. If Anna Catherine is going to use braille much, she should become fluent with a braille keyboard and I believe note-taking with a braille keyboard to be faster than with a QWERTY keyboard (and I can type 120 wpm or more). 
But my  braille-writing has gotten much better since I've used note-takers with a braille keyboard for braille-writing!

One final thing: both the BrailleNote and the Braille Sense Plus have GPS navigation available although it's an "extra" and this old-fashioned person truly isn't convinced that GPS is really all that useful although there was a rumor that one blind guy found his way out of New Orleans using a BrailleNote and GPS. But since I only heard this once, I've come to suspect that this story is apocryphal. To my mind, GPS maps aren't updated often enough to be truly useful. But that's my thing.

Oh yes: I realize you may be impecunious. But were I you, I'd try my darndest to buy the note-taker myself; forget the school district bureaucracy!

Hope this tome helps you.

Mike Freeman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Washington

P.S.. This was written in Grade 2 on the Braille Sense Plus. 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: Pibe-division at nfbnet.org, blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 5:34:59
Subject: [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions

>
>
> Hi all,
> 
> DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
> for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:
> 
> 
> 
> First, which notetaker should we request?
> We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
> Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
> anyway.)
> >From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
> is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
> it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
> computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
> choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
> Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
> entry?  I have not been able to find any.
> Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
> refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
> speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
> realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
> District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
> comfortable with its use over the summer.)
> 
> 
> 
> Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna Catherine.
> Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
> Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlton
> 
> -- 
> Carlton Anne Cook Walker
> Anna's Mom
> 213 North First Street
> McConnellsburg, PA    17233
> Voice: 717-485-3383
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From debrabaxley at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec 22 08:12:46 2008
From: debrabaxley at bellsouth.net (Debra Baxley)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:12:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
In-Reply-To: <20081221180007.k7uij@panix.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c9640d$12f52d20$6101a8c0@DEBRA>

The Braille Sense is the envy of all totally blind people!!

Debra

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:00 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions

Carlton:

I will answer your second question first. Yes, the Victor Reader Stream can
be used to read books from BookShare. You just download the DAISY or .brf
file to the appropriate folder on the SD card that is used to store books
and audio content on the Stream. If Anna Catherine is used to Eloquence on
her computer using either WindowEyes or JAWS, she may get a shock when she
first hears the text-to-speech engine on the Stream; as it comes from the
box, the Stream uses ScanSoft's RealSpeak Samantha although the Tom and
Daniel (this last with a British accent) are also available. These voices
aren't as good as their equivalents on a PC. However, one gets used to the
voice quickly and it works quite well although it is not ideal.

Additionally, you should be aware that the current version of BookShare
isn't really fully DAISY-compliant so when a new version of the Stream
software comes out, Humanware and other makers of DAISY-READERS often have a
bit of tweaking to do to get the DAISY versions of the BookShare books to
read properly with all their navigation features enabled. The .brf versions
read fine, though.

The BrailleNote can read DAISY books such as those from BookShare purport to
be. However, it cannot repeat CANNOT be used to read audio books from the
National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped (NLS) and
Recordings for the Blind and Dyslexic (RFB&D). Aside from the Stream, the
only devices that can read at least NLS books are the Icon and the Braille
Plus, the latter being an Icon-equivalent from the American Printing House
for the Blind (APH). Neither of these two devices has a braille display;
they are essentially a PDA with voice output. But the Stream is strictly
audio only also. But it's so useful that well over ten thousand have been
sold since it's introduction in 2007.

Now to the BrailleNote. It will not be able to read NLS books for the
foreseeable future as NLS is deathly afraid of allowing a software-based
reader that might enable clever code disassemblers to extract the audio
content for pirated distribution.

The BrailleNote can be used as a braille display. Frankly (and many will
quarrel with me on what I shall say next), I never found a braille display
hooked to a computer all that useful. Why? One must take one's hands off the
computer keyboard to read the braille. Having been taught touch-typing in
the 1950's, I am loath to take my hands off the keyboard for ANY reason. But
that's my eccentricity. The braille display is handy for checking spelling
but a good screen-reader operator gets good at this on-the-fly also. Let the
flame-throwers do their thing! (grin)

As for ease of use and similarity to a computer's menus, the PacMate is
probably closer to a computer or PDA than is the BrailleNote in that it runs
such applications as PocketWord, PocketInternetExplorer and other
Windows-based programs. And the PacMate runs JAWS as a screen-reader. The
drawbacks are two in my opinion: (1) if one wants a braille display, this is
a separate piece of hardware that mates more-or-less seamlessly with the
PacMate. Still, it's a separate piece of gear. (2) Although vast
improvements have been made with the PacMate Omni, the unit's software is
somewhat unstable; one must reset more often than I'm used to and although
one doesn't lose data as often as was the case with the early PacMates, it's
still a good idea to back up one's critical data often.

But then I've also heard that the BrailleNote isn't as stable as I'd like;
one must reset it several times per day which is inexcusable in my
estimation. But then I believe the software industry has forgotten what real
stability is! I program mainframes at work and work-stations that run the
VAX/VMS operating system and I have a work-station under my desk that has
been "up" for over a year continuously. Put that in your pipe and smoke it,
LINUX and Windows!

But I digress. The BrailleNote is a fine unit although, as I say, it also
isn't as stable as I'd truly like. It's advantage is that many school
systems know it. But to add wi-fi or wired LAN or other capabilities to the
device, you'll have to purchase separate cards.

Not so with another device, available from www.gwmicro.com called the
Braille Sense Plus B32. Yes, it has a braille keyboard but one can use a USB
or blue tooth standard QWERTY keyboard. The voice is still Eloquence and the
device has, like the BrailleNote, a 32 cell braille display. Unlike the
BrailleNote, however, the Braille Sense Plus has built-in wi-fi, blue tooth
and wired LAN connections. Like the BrailleNote, it has email and a web
browser and a FM radio. the braille keyboard on the Braille Sense is MUCH
quieter than that of the BrailleNote and has a great feel. It has a DAISY
player so, I presume, can display BookShare books though I haven't tried
this yet. One can stream audio from the Net as long as it's not Flash- or
Real Audio-based. Generally, if you can play it on a PDA, you can play it on
the Braille Sense. Like the BrailleNote, it records audio although I think
the Stream does a better job.

Like Eric, I think you should seriously think about your QWERTY keyboard
choice. When the Blazie "Type 'N Speak" note-taker came out (QWERTY input,
voice output) Curtis Chong and I thought it was great as both of us typed
faster than we could write braille with a braille keyboard. However, I have
since changed my opinion. If Anna Catherine is going to use braille much,
she should become fluent with a braille keyboard and I believe note-taking
with a braille keyboard to be faster than with a QWERTY keyboard (and I can
type 120 wpm or more). 
But my  braille-writing has gotten much better since I've used note-takers
with a braille keyboard for braille-writing!

One final thing: both the BrailleNote and the Braille Sense Plus have GPS
navigation available although it's an "extra" and this old-fashioned person
truly isn't convinced that GPS is really all that useful although there was
a rumor that one blind guy found his way out of New Orleans using a
BrailleNote and GPS. But since I only heard this once, I've come to suspect
that this story is apocryphal. To my mind, GPS maps aren't updated often
enough to be truly useful. But that's my thing.

Oh yes: I realize you may be impecunious. But were I you, I'd try my
darndest to buy the note-taker myself; forget the school district
bureaucracy!

Hope this tome helps you.

Mike Freeman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Washington

P.S.. This was written in Grade 2 on the Braille Sense Plus. 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: Pibe-division at nfbnet.org, blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 5:34:59
Subject: [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions

>
>
> Hi all,
> 
> DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
> for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:
> 
> 
> 
> First, which notetaker should we request?
> We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
> Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
> anyway.)
> >From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
> is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
> it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
> computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
> choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
> Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
> entry?  I have not been able to find any.
> Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
> refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
> speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
> realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
> District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
> comfortable with its use over the summer.)
> 
> 
> 
> Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna
Catherine.
> Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
> Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlton
> 
> -- 
> Carlton Anne Cook Walker
> Anna's Mom
> 213 North First Street
> McConnellsburg, PA    17233
> Voice: 717-485-3383
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/debrabaxley%40bell
south.net
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2008
2:34 PM




From jjordan_pa at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 21 21:00:28 2008
From: jjordan_pa at yahoo.com (jjordan_pa at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:00:28 +0000
Subject: [blindkid] [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
In-Reply-To: <000f01c9640d$12f52d20$6101a8c0@DEBRA>
References: <20081221180007.k7uij@panix.com><000f01c9640d$12f52d20$6101a8c0@DEBRA>
Message-ID: <1014718617-1229893635-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1058556159-@bxe016.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Tell me more about the Braille Sense
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Debra Baxley" <debrabaxley at bellsouth.net>

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:12:46 
To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,\(for parents of blind children\)'<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions


The Braille Sense is the envy of all totally blind people!!

Debra

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:00 PM
To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindkid] [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions

Carlton:

I will answer your second question first. Yes, the Victor Reader Stream can
be used to read books from BookShare. You just download the DAISY or .brf
file to the appropriate folder on the SD card that is used to store books
and audio content on the Stream. If Anna Catherine is used to Eloquence on
her computer using either WindowEyes or JAWS, she may get a shock when she
first hears the text-to-speech engine on the Stream; as it comes from the
box, the Stream uses ScanSoft's RealSpeak Samantha although the Tom and
Daniel (this last with a British accent) are also available. These voices
aren't as good as their equivalents on a PC. However, one gets used to the
voice quickly and it works quite well although it is not ideal.

Additionally, you should be aware that the current version of BookShare
isn't really fully DAISY-compliant so when a new version of the Stream
software comes out, Humanware and other makers of DAISY-READERS often have a
bit of tweaking to do to get the DAISY versions of the BookShare books to
read properly with all their navigation features enabled. The .brf versions
read fine, though.

The BrailleNote can read DAISY books such as those from BookShare purport to
be. However, it cannot repeat CANNOT be used to read audio books from the
National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped (NLS) and
Recordings for the Blind and Dyslexic (RFB&D). Aside from the Stream, the
only devices that can read at least NLS books are the Icon and the Braille
Plus, the latter being an Icon-equivalent from the American Printing House
for the Blind (APH). Neither of these two devices has a braille display;
they are essentially a PDA with voice output. But the Stream is strictly
audio only also. But it's so useful that well over ten thousand have been
sold since it's introduction in 2007.

Now to the BrailleNote. It will not be able to read NLS books for the
foreseeable future as NLS is deathly afraid of allowing a software-based
reader that might enable clever code disassemblers to extract the audio
content for pirated distribution.

The BrailleNote can be used as a braille display. Frankly (and many will
quarrel with me on what I shall say next), I never found a braille display
hooked to a computer all that useful. Why? One must take one's hands off the
computer keyboard to read the braille. Having been taught touch-typing in
the 1950's, I am loath to take my hands off the keyboard for ANY reason. But
that's my eccentricity. The braille display is handy for checking spelling
but a good screen-reader operator gets good at this on-the-fly also. Let the
flame-throwers do their thing! (grin)

As for ease of use and similarity to a computer's menus, the PacMate is
probably closer to a computer or PDA than is the BrailleNote in that it runs
such applications as PocketWord, PocketInternetExplorer and other
Windows-based programs. And the PacMate runs JAWS as a screen-reader. The
drawbacks are two in my opinion: (1) if one wants a braille display, this is
a separate piece of hardware that mates more-or-less seamlessly with the
PacMate. Still, it's a separate piece of gear. (2) Although vast
improvements have been made with the PacMate Omni, the unit's software is
somewhat unstable; one must reset more often than I'm used to and although
one doesn't lose data as often as was the case with the early PacMates, it's
still a good idea to back up one's critical data often.

But then I've also heard that the BrailleNote isn't as stable as I'd like;
one must reset it several times per day which is inexcusable in my
estimation. But then I believe the software industry has forgotten what real
stability is! I program mainframes at work and work-stations that run the
VAX/VMS operating system and I have a work-station under my desk that has
been "up" for over a year continuously. Put that in your pipe and smoke it,
LINUX and Windows!

But I digress. The BrailleNote is a fine unit although, as I say, it also
isn't as stable as I'd truly like. It's advantage is that many school
systems know it. But to add wi-fi or wired LAN or other capabilities to the
device, you'll have to purchase separate cards.

Not so with another device, available from www.gwmicro.com called the
Braille Sense Plus B32. Yes, it has a braille keyboard but one can use a USB
or blue tooth standard QWERTY keyboard. The voice is still Eloquence and the
device has, like the BrailleNote, a 32 cell braille display. Unlike the
BrailleNote, however, the Braille Sense Plus has built-in wi-fi, blue tooth
and wired LAN connections. Like the BrailleNote, it has email and a web
browser and a FM radio. the braille keyboard on the Braille Sense is MUCH
quieter than that of the BrailleNote and has a great feel. It has a DAISY
player so, I presume, can display BookShare books though I haven't tried
this yet. One can stream audio from the Net as long as it's not Flash- or
Real Audio-based. Generally, if you can play it on a PDA, you can play it on
the Braille Sense. Like the BrailleNote, it records audio although I think
the Stream does a better job.

Like Eric, I think you should seriously think about your QWERTY keyboard
choice. When the Blazie "Type 'N Speak" note-taker came out (QWERTY input,
voice output) Curtis Chong and I thought it was great as both of us typed
faster than we could write braille with a braille keyboard. However, I have
since changed my opinion. If Anna Catherine is going to use braille much,
she should become fluent with a braille keyboard and I believe note-taking
with a braille keyboard to be faster than with a QWERTY keyboard (and I can
type 120 wpm or more). 
But my  braille-writing has gotten much better since I've used note-takers
with a braille keyboard for braille-writing!

One final thing: both the BrailleNote and the Braille Sense Plus have GPS
navigation available although it's an "extra" and this old-fashioned person
truly isn't convinced that GPS is really all that useful although there was
a rumor that one blind guy found his way out of New Orleans using a
BrailleNote and GPS. But since I only heard this once, I've come to suspect
that this story is apocryphal. To my mind, GPS maps aren't updated often
enough to be truly useful. But that's my thing.

Oh yes: I realize you may be impecunious. But were I you, I'd try my
darndest to buy the note-taker myself; forget the school district
bureaucracy!

Hope this tome helps you.

Mike Freeman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Washington

P.S.. This was written in Grade 2 on the Braille Sense Plus. 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: Pibe-division at nfbnet.org, blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 5:34:59
Subject: [blkid] Notetker and Digital player questions

>
>
> Hi all,
> 
> DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
> for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:
> 
> 
> 
> First, which notetaker should we request?
> We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
> Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
> anyway.)
> >From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
> is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
> it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
> computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
> choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
> Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
> entry?  I have not been able to find any.
> Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
> refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
> speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
> realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
> District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
> comfortable with its use over the summer.)
> 
> 
> 
> Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna
Catherine.
> Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
> Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlton
> 
> -- 
> Carlton Anne Cook Walker
> Anna's Mom
> 213 North First Street
> McConnellsburg, PA    17233
> Voice: 717-485-3383
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/debrabaxley%40bell
south.net
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2008
2:34 PM


_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/jjordan_pa%40yahoo.com

From SMerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu  Sun Dec 21 22:28:01 2008
From: SMerchant at vetmed.lsu.edu (Dr. Sandy Merchant)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:28:01 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WC20081221222801.4107F2@vetmed.lsu.edu>

Hi  Carlton,

I have to echo Dr. V's thoughts.  Michael is incredibly fast on his six key 
braille note.  I am a very fast typer and I can't keep up.  Having said 
that, Michael is a computer nut so he also uses the QWERTY keyboard, touch 
typing and is faster than most people I know.  So, he uses both extensively, 
but the six key on the braille note that he takes to school and home and 
does all of his assignments has allowed him to keep his "braille" skills 
while his "fun" computer stuff has sharpened his touch typing.  I would 
definitely get the braille note with 6 key braille.  WHen a child is good at 
this, it gives them a distinct advantage.  Nice to have our blind kids have 
an advantage!  In daily living, they will keep up with their touch typing.
Sandy Taboada
 


-----Original Message-----
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: Pibe-division at nfbnet.org, blindkid at nfbnet.org
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:22:08 -0500
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions


Hi all,

DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:



First, which notetaker should we request?
We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
anyway.)
>From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
entry?  I have not been able to find any.
Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
comfortable with its use over the summer.)



Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna Catherine.
Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?



Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.




Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,





Carlton

-- 
Carlton Anne Cook Walker
Anna's Mom
213 North First Street
McConnellsburg, PA    17233
Voice:  717-485-3383 

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/smerchant%40vetmed.lsu.edu


From Kassyp36 at msn.com  Sun Dec 21 23:53:28 2008
From: Kassyp36 at msn.com (Kasondra Payne)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:53:28 -0700
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL0-DAV386FF55538A856B59D9939C3EE0@phx.gbl>

Carlton,

I am pretty partial to a PAC Mate because its commands more directly
correspond to Windows.  If your daughter is comfortable with Windows and
JAWS, she will adjust well to the PAC Mate.  I find it very easy to use, and
the Braille display is detachable, so it can be attached to any computer
with a USB cable.  I don't want to start an argument, but it works well and
its operating system is the same as many other devices because it's Windows
Mobile 6.  I love the qwerty keyboard because it is exactly like my laptop.
It is important that your daughter is excited about the device you choose
and that she is comfortable using it.  I have recommended a device that I
use and love, but you should really arrange for demonstrations of various
notetakers, so you can see which one she likes.  Good luck with your
decision.  

Kasondra Payne 




From tweetybaby19 at comcast.net  Mon Dec 22 01:15:29 2008
From: tweetybaby19 at comcast.net (EVELYN E. VALDEZ by way of David Andrews
	<dandrews@visi.com>)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:15:29 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Santa's Letter....
Message-ID: <auto-000080108632@mailfront2.g2host.com>



Dear Santa,
I've been a good mom all year. I've fed, cleaned and cuddled my 
children on demand, visited the doctor's office more than my own 
doctor, sold sixty-two cases of candy bars to raise money to plant a 
shade tree on the school playground. I was hoping you could spread my 
list out -- over several Christmases.


  Since I had to write this letter with my son's red crayon, on the 
back of a receipt in the laundry room between cycles; and who knows 
when I'll find any more free time in the next 18 years, so now - -

*** Here are my Christmas wishes ***

* I'd like a pair of legs that don't ache (-in any color, except 
purple, which I already have) and arms that don't hurt or flap in the 
breeze; but are strong enough to pull my screaming child out of the 
candy aisle in the grocery store.

* I'd also like a waist, since I lost mine somewhere in the seventh 
month of my last pregnancy.

* If you're hauling big-ticket items this year, I'd like fingerprint 
resistant windows and a radio that only plays adult music; a 
television that doesn't broadcast any programs containing talking 
animals; and a refrigerator with a secret compartment behind the 
crisper where I can hide to talk on the phone.

* On the practical side, I could use a talking doll that says, 'Yes, 
Mommy' to boost my parental confidence, along with two kids who don't 
fight and three pairs of j eans that will zip all the way up without 
the use of power tools.

* I could also use a recording of Tibetan monks chanting, 'Don't eat 
in the living room' and 'Take your hands off your brother,' because 
my voice seems to be just out of my children's hearing range and can 
only be heard by the dog.

* If it's too late to find any of these products, I'd settle for 
enough time to brush my teeth and comb my hair in the same morning, 
or the luxury of eating food warmer than room temperature without it 
being served in a Styrofoam container.

*If you don't mind, I could also use a few miracles to brighten the 
holiday season. Would it be too much trouble to declare ketchup a 
vegetable? It will clear my conscience immensely.


*It would be helpful if you could coerce my children to help around 
the house without demanding payment as if they were the bosses of an 
organized crime family.

Well, the buzzer on the dryer is ringing, and my son saw my feet 
under the laundry room door. I think he wants his red crayon back. 
Have a safe trip Santa, and remember to leave your wet boots by the 
door, and come in and dry off, so you don't catch cold. Help yourself 
to cookies on the table, but don't eat too many or leave crumbs on the carpet.
Yours always with love and appreciation,
A Mom
P.S. One more thing . .. You can cancel all my requests, if you can 
keep my children 'young' enough to believe in Santa.


. . . Santa has asked that this gets passed on to all 'moms' if you wish




From andysally at comcast.net  Mon Dec 22 01:33:48 2008
From: andysally at comcast.net (Andy & Sally Thomas)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:33:48 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
In-Reply-To: <COL0-DAV386FF55538A856B59D9939C3EE0@phx.gbl>
References: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL0-DAV386FF55538A856B59D9939C3EE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3CB214DF75C146109B17BEF8BF7FB954@andysallyhome>

It also occurs to me that you might want to consider the support you will 
get for the tool.  Are you going to learn how to use it and teach her or is 
the TBS going to teach her?  Does the TBS have a preference?  Not that your 
preference isn't important but all other things being equal, that might be a 
decider.  Also does your school district have to buy the notetaker new or do 
they have tools available?  Maybe you could try out something and see how 
Anna likes it.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kasondra Payne" <Kassyp36 at msn.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions


> Carlton,
>
> I am pretty partial to a PAC Mate because its commands more directly
> correspond to Windows.  If your daughter is comfortable with Windows and
> JAWS, she will adjust well to the PAC Mate.  I find it very easy to use, 
> and
> the Braille display is detachable, so it can be attached to any computer
> with a USB cable.  I don't want to start an argument, but it works well 
> and
> its operating system is the same as many other devices because it's 
> Windows
> Mobile 6.  I love the qwerty keyboard because it is exactly like my 
> laptop.
> It is important that your daughter is excited about the device you choose
> and that she is comfortable using it.  I have recommended a device that I
> use and love, but you should really arrange for demonstrations of various
> notetakers, so you can see which one she likes.  Good luck with your
> decision.
>
> Kasondra Payne
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/andysally%40comcast.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 
2:34 PM




From branlw at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec 22 01:49:56 2008
From: branlw at sbcglobal.net (Brandy with Discovery Toys)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:49:56 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions
In-Reply-To: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa85e5850812210522i16c93bd8te13d8cb10cb4c25e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CE04CD19F027426EAA0DF70321297CCA@BrandyPC>

Hi, I use a Braille Note. I found it very easy to learn to use. I've looked 
at the pack mates, and have had some friends who tried them, but they have 
always liked their Braille Notes better. I agree with the rest the Braille 
key lay out is faster and supports Braille more efficiently.

I just got a  Victor. I love it so far, but I've only used it with 
audible.com books.

Bran


"We all have our time machines. Some take us back, they're called memories. 
Some take us forward, they're called dreams."
Jeremy Irons

Brandy Wojcik
Discovery Toys Group Manager and Educational Consultant

Shop online any time!
www.playtoachieve.com
(512) 231-8697

Let me know if I can help with any of the following:
* Starting your own Discovery Toys business
* Best buy bundles allow you to shop at a discount year round
* How you can earn toys for free
* Gift baskets for all ages
* Gift certificates
* Office setups and much more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carlton Anne Cook Walker" <attorneywalker at gmail.com>
To: <Pibe-division at nfbnet.org>; <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:22 AM
Subject: [blindkid] Notetker and Digital player questions


> Hi all,
>
> DH and I are going to soon approach the school regarding a notetaker
> for Anna Catherine.  I have two major questions:
>
>
>
> First, which notetaker should we request?
> We have already decided that a QWERTY keyboard would be better.  (Anna
> Catherine has some vision and uses a laptop with a QWERTY keyboard
> anyway.)
>>From what I understand from the teens to whom I've spoken, Braillenote
> is highly preferred over PacMate.  I understand that this is because
> it is easier to use and the keystrokes more directly correspond with
> computer-based commands.  Am I correct? Are there other reasons to
> choose the BrailleNote over the PacMate?
> Are there any other brands I should be looking at -- that have QWERTY
> entry?  I have not been able to find any.
> Also, can the notetaker be connected with a computer and serve as a
> refreshable braille display?  (If yes, it might make it easier to
> speed up the process of getting notetaker for Anna Catherine.  We're
> realy hoping to have one by the end of the school year -- yes, our
> District IS that slow -- so that she may explore it and become
> comfortable with its use over the summer.)
>
>
>
> Second, I am also interested in the Victor Reader Stream for Anna 
> Catherine.
> Can a notetaker be used as a Digital Reader?
> Can Bookshare files be easily uploaded onto the Victor?
>
>
>
> Thank you so very much for your help on these matters.
>
>
>
>
> Wishing everyone a safe, joyful, and blessed holiday season,
>
>
>
>
>
> Carlton
>
> -- 
> Carlton Anne Cook Walker
> Anna's Mom
> 213 North First Street
> McConnellsburg, PA    17233
> Voice: 717-485-3383
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/branlw%40sbcglobal.net 




From MThorpe at nfb.org  Mon Dec 22 18:31:25 2008
From: MThorpe at nfb.org (Thorpe,
	Mary Jo)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:31:25 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] NFB BELL Program for 2009
Message-ID: <auto-000079449565@mailfront1.g2host.com>


Braille Enrichment for Literacy and Nonvisual Learning

2009 NFB BELL Summer Program



The NFB Jernigan Institute is pleased to announce the Braille 
Enrichment for Literacy and Nonvisual Learning (BELL) program in the 
summer of 2009.  The BELL program is designed to serve as a 
demonstration program to help provide intensive Braille instruction 
to low vision children during the summer months.  This pilot program 
will be modeled after the successful 2007 BELL Program led by the NFB 
of Maryland state affiliate. The NFB Jernigan Institute plans to 
expand this program into two additional states during the summer of 2009.



Selected states will host the Institute's BELL Core team during the 
two weeks of their program. BELL Core Team members will facilitate a 
variety of fun, hands-on lessons ranging from group activities to 
one-on-one instruction to help teach Braille to low vision students 
ages four to twelve. The program will run Monday through Friday from 
8:30 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. Please visit 
<http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Bell_Program_2009.asp>www.nfb.org/nfb/Bell_Program_2009.asp 
to learn more about this exciting program.



Interested in being part of the BELL Core Team?



Members of this team will be responsible for creating and 
implementing the curriculum and various activities for the three BELL 
program sites.  These individuals will work closely with staff 
members from the NFB Jernigan Institute and the state coordinators 
from selected states to design lesson plans and projects for the 
program.  Selected team members will be hired as contractual summer 
staff for the NFB Jernigan Institute beginning in June through the 
middle of August 2009.  Team members will also participate in the NFB 
Youth Slam.



Qualifications



We are looking for enthusiastic and highly motivated individuals who 
are passionate about encouraging the next generation of blind 
children and eager to promote Braille literacy.  Teachers of the 
Blind/Low Vision and those with experience teaching Braille to 
children are highly encouraged to apply.  However, members do not 
have to be certified teachers to be effective participants in the NFB 
BELL program, but they should have experience working with young children.



Benefits



All aspects of the program, including transportation, room, and board 
will be provided by the NFB at no expense to selected team 
members.  Team members will also receive a $3,500 stipend as payment 
for the summer.  This program is an extraordinary opportunity for 
individuals to assist blind children and help to promote our efforts 
for Braille literacy.



How to Apply

Please visit the Web site to obtain an application.  Applications are 
due by February 1, 2009.



For all other questions about the NFB BELL Program, please contact:

Mary Jo Thorpe, Education Programs Specialist, National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, ext. 2407, or by e-mail at 
<mailto:mthorpe at nfb.org>mthorpe at nfb.org.









From mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 28 01:41:17 2008
From: mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com (Mindy Lipsey)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:41:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Matthew Lipsey - Council for Exceptional Children
Message-ID: <421460.39982.qm@web31607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello Everyone-
I wanted to share an award that Matthew just won - Matthew applied for the Council for Exception Children-Yes I Can! Award (for advocacy) a few months ago, and we just received a phone call this week notifying us that he is a winner!
The organization?received 300 applications and only awarded 27 children with this prestigious honor.
Matthew won a trip to Seattle beginning on Apr. 3rd (for the entire family).? He will receive a trophy?(created by a blind sculptor), award and letter from the President of the US, in front of approx. 400 conference attendees.? He will also attend a special field trip while in Seattle.
Much thanks?to all of you who inspired, motivated and taught Matthew over the past 5 years.? You've all been so instrumental in helping Matthew generate such a positive attitude towards blindness, and helping him to realize that nothing will stop him from accomplishing his dreams.
>From his proud Mom,
Mindy
?
Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?


      

From Redsgold at aol.com  Sun Dec 28 05:11:02 2008
From: Redsgold at aol.com (Redsgold at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 00:11:02 EST
Subject: [blindkid] Matthew Lipsey - Council for Exceptional Children
Message-ID: <cfb.4a8e7667.36886466@aol.com>

Mindy, congratulations on Matthew's award.  I am not familiar with  Matthew, 
but I would love to know more about him.
 
I am the grandmother of twins who were born at 23 weeks.  Both of them  have 
suffered severe ROP and have been treated by Dr. Trese in Michigan.   At best, 
we are hoping for low vision for Noah and perhaps some low vision in  one eye 
for Samantha.  We really don't know what vision they will have at  this 
point. They will be one year old January 27, 2009/
 
It is always good to hear about wonderful successes, if you have time,  
please let me know more about Matthew.  Hope you have a wonderful new  year.
 
Susie Gold
 
 
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, 
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)


From bldhnds52 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 28 13:30:58 2008
From: bldhnds52 at yahoo.com (Colleen Davis)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:30:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [blindkid] Matthew Lipsey - Council for Exceptional Children
References: <421460.39982.qm@web31607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <644189.24536.qm@web65409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Wow! Congratulations to you both!
I have a Matthew, too. They are great, aren't they? :-)
Colleen




________________________________
From: Mindy Lipsey <mindy_lipsey at yahoo.com>
To: Barbara Cheadle <bcheadle at nfb.org>; Denise Colton <dlcolton at parkcity.net>; Jennifer Fagan <jfagan at bism.org>; Laurie Harris <laurie70 at live.com>; NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List for parents of blind children <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; MD Support <mdlist at mdsupport.org>; Dan Oates <scivis at atlanticbb.net>; Susan Peppers <speppers12 at bellsouth.net>; phyllis.greco at gsa.gov; Susan Polansky <sepolansky at verizon.net>; Larry Rothfeder <lrothfeder at gmail.com>; Michael Rowley <michael at central-vision.com>; Pam Satterlee-Williams <psatterleewms at bcps.org>; Tim Schoen <tschoen at blindness.org>; Joseph Statman <statvision1 at yahoo.com>; matt stover <mdstover at comcast.net>; JANET SUNNESS MD <jsunness at gbmc.org>; Sam Teitelman <ajsam2 at comcast.net>; Mary Jo Thorpe <mthorpe at nfb.org>; NFB of Maryland <nfbmd at earthlink.net>; MD parents Blind Children <mdpobc at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:41:17 PM
Subject: [blindkid] Matthew Lipsey - Council for Exceptional Children

Hello Everyone-
I wanted to share an award that Matthew just won - Matthew applied for the Council for Exception Children-Yes I Can! Award (for advocacy) a few months ago, and we just received a phone call this week notifying us that he is a winner!
The organization received 300 applications and only awarded 27 children with this prestigious honor.
Matthew won a trip to Seattle beginning on Apr. 3rd (for the entire family).  He will receive a trophy (created by a blind sculptor), award and letter from the President of the US, in front of approx. 400 conference attendees.  He will also attend a special field trip while in Seattle.
Much thanks to all of you who inspired, motivated and taught Matthew over the past 5 years.  You've all been so instrumental in helping Matthew generate such a positive attitude towards blindness, and helping him to realize that nothing will stop him from accomplishing his dreams.
>From his proud Mom,
Mindy
 
Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD  21117

 


      
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/bldhnds52%40yahoo.com


From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 15:33:36 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:33:36 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Matthew Lipsey - Council for Exceptional Children
In-Reply-To: <421460.39982.qm@web31607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4958edd3.073e400a.5e60.ffffbfbe@mx.google.com>

Dear Mindy,
Congratulations to Matthew! Also to his proud parents! Maybe you can also
share with the list how others can apply for the next cycle>
What an exciting trip you have to look forward to receive the award as well!
I understand about the village needed for raising a strong child--but you
have been his foundation and springboard Mindy--job well done to you too!
Best,

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mindy Lipsey
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:41 PM
To: Barbara Cheadle; Denise Colton; Jennifer Fagan; Laurie Harris; NFBnet
Blind Kid Mailing List for parents of blind children; MD Support; Dan Oates;
Susan Peppers; phyllis.greco at gsa.gov; Susan Polansky; Larry Rothfeder;
Michael Rowley; Pam Satterlee-Williams; Tim Schoen; Joseph Statman; matt
stover; JANET SUNNESS MD; Sam Teitelman; Mary Jo Thorpe; NFB of Maryland; MD
parents Blind Children
Subject: [blindkid] Matthew Lipsey - Council for Exceptional Children

Hello Everyone-
I wanted to share an award that Matthew just won - Matthew applied for the
Council for Exception Children-Yes I Can! Award (for advocacy) a few months
ago, and we just received a phone call this week notifying us that he is a
winner!
The organization?received 300 applications and only awarded 27 children with
this prestigious honor.
Matthew won a trip to Seattle beginning on Apr. 3rd (for the entire
family).? He will receive a trophy?(created by a blind sculptor), award and
letter from the President of the US, in front of approx. 400 conference
attendees.? He will also attend a special field trip while in Seattle.
Much thanks?to all of you who inspired, motivated and taught Matthew over
the past 5 years.? You've all been so instrumental in helping Matthew
generate such a positive attitude towards blindness, and helping him to
realize that nothing will stop him from accomplishing his dreams.
>From his proud Mom,
Mindy
?
Mindy Lipsey
Mediaedge:cia
410-530-5555
9207 Harvest Rush Road
Owings Mills, MD? 21117

?


      
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 20:14:19 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:14:19 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: RFB&D Layoffs
Message-ID: <495930d6.181e640a.42f8.ffff9c3e@mx.google.com>

FYI:

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

Subject: Fwd: RFB&D Layoffs

Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic news. For those unaware, RFB & D is
a major source of recorded materials across the country, including
Minnesota.

>>> David B Andrews 12/22/2008 3:23:50 PM >>>
I understand that RFB&D has laid off 33 persons.  I do not know what
impact this will have on their services, but .....
 
Dave
 
 
 
David Andrews
Chief Technology Officer
Minnesota State Services for the Blind
2200 University Ave. W., #240
St. Paul, MN  55114-1840
(651) 642-0513  Office
(612) 730-7931  Cell
(651) 649-5927  Fax




From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 20:14:19 2008
From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:14:19 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] UnitedHealth Heroes Service-learning Grants
Message-ID: <495930e8.181e640a.42f8.ffff9c6f@mx.google.com>

Some of your kids may find this a great opportunity... 

 
 
Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

To all eligible state divisions:
 
This grant may be of interest to you.  If you live in the listed states and
have considered engaging a community service project to put your members to
work, this may be a worthwhile opportunity.  Our office will be announcing
another grant opportunity of potential interest to you in January.  To learn
more visit:
 
www.ysa.org/awards/
 
 
 Best,
 
Joe Orozco
 
 UnitedHealth Heroes Service-Learning Grants: Asking young people to take
the lead in solving the most critical health problem facing their
generation!

 (Applicants from selected states in the USA)

 

Youth Service America and UnitedHealthcare are excited to offer the
UnitedHealth HEROES service-learning grants, a Global Youth Service Grant
(GYSG).  More than 200 awards are available for youth-led community
education projects. These grants of up to $1,000 support teachers,
community-based and school-based service-learning coordinators, and students
in the health professions to implement service-learning projects around
childhood obesity.  The selected projects will engage children and youth
ages 5 to 25 in youth-led solutions.  We encourage 'Semester of Service'
length projects that launch in February, and use Global Youth Service Day
(April 24-26, 2009) to bring visibility to their projects.   

Grants will support projects in Alabama, Arizona, California, Colorado,
Indiana, Maryland, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South
Carolina, and Tennessee, and in the following specific areas:
Florida-selected counties, Illinois-Chicagoland and Peoria; and New
York-Long Island, New York City, and Syracuse.  

 

Deadline:  January 15, 2009.  For application materials, visit
http://tinyurl.com/UHHeroesGrant
<http://bme1.net/link/redirect.asp?g=0&c=259651&l=208662206&e=ysaall at ysa.org
&url=http://tinyurl.com/UHHeroesGrant> .  Questions?   E-mail:
healthheroes at ysa.org

 

YSA improves communities by increasing the number and the diversity of young
people, ages 5-25, serving in substantive roles.

 

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From cdanielsen8 at aol.com  Tue Dec 30 03:01:19 2008
From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:01:19 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] National Federation of the Blind Celebrates the 200th
 Anniversary of the Birth of Louis Braille
Message-ID: <auto-000080028690@mailfront1.g2host.com>



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Public Relations Specialist
National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, ext. 2330

(410) 262-1281 (cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org








National Federation of the Blind Celebrates
the 200th

 Anniversary of the Birth of Louis Braille



Events to be Held Nationwide in Over One Hundred Locations



Baltimore, Maryland (December 29, 2008): The 
National Federation of the Blind (NFB), the 
nation?s largest and oldest organization of blind 
people, will hold events nationwide on Sunday, 
January 4, 2009, to promote Braille literacy and 
help celebrate the two-hundredth anniversary of 
the birth of Louis Braille (1809?1852), the 
inventor of the reading and writing code for the 
blind that bears his name.  In over one hundred 
bookstores, libraries, and other venues all 
across the nation, National Federation of the 
Blind representatives will demonstrate Braille 
and the power of Braille literacy.



?There can be no doubt that the ability to read 
and write Braille competently and efficiently is 
the key to education, employment, and success for 
the blind.  Despite the undisputed value of 
Braille, only about 10 percent of blind children 
in the United States are currently learning 
it.  These events will help raise awareness of 
the importance of Braille literacy and are an 
integral part of our nationwide campaign to 
reverse the downward trend in Braille literacy 
and to ensure that equal opportunities in 
education and employment are available to all of 
the nation?s blind,? said Marc Maurer, President 
of the National Federation of the Blind.



The events are being held nationwide as part of 
the National Federation of the Blind?s Braille 
Readers are Leaders campaign, a national 
initiative to promote the importance of reading 
and writing Braille for blind children and 
adults.  The Braille Readers are Leaders campaign 
kicked off in July of 2008 with the unveiling of 
the design of a commemorative coin to be minted 
in 2009 in recognition of the two-hundredth 
anniversary of the birth of Louis Braille.  The 
commemorative coin design will also be previewed at the events.





For more information about the Braille Readers 
are Leaders campaign, please visit 
<http://www.braille.org/>www.braille.org.  To 
find out about events in your area, please 
contact Fredric Schroeder at <mailto:fschroeder at nfb.org>fschroeder at nfb.org.



###







About the National Federation of the Blind


With more than 50,000 members, the National 
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most 
influential membership organization of blind 
people in the United States.  The NFB improves 
blind people?s lives through advocacy, education, 
research, technology, and programs encouraging 
independence and self-confidence.  It is the 
leading force in the blindness field today and 
the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 
the NFB opened the National Federation of the 
Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and 
training center in the United States for the 
blind led by the blind.  Please visit our Web 
site: <http://www.nfb.org>www.nfb.org.

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From LoriStay at aol.com  Wed Dec 31 03:31:46 2008
From: LoriStay at aol.com (by way of David Andrews <dandrews@visi.com>)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:31:46 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Youth Writing Contest
Message-ID: <auto-000081150737@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Do you know a budding writer?   Pass this along!
Lori Stayer


    Youth Writing Contest!

    The NFB Writers' Division is hosting a Youth Writing Contest to
    promote Braille literacy and excellence in creative writing. Entries
    will be judged on creativity and quality of Braille. We are looking
    for creative writing, in the form of fiction and poetry. There is no
    charge for entering.

    This is a contest for students who use Braille. Entries must Be
    submitted in hand embossed Braille, either on a slate and stylus or
    on a Braille writer. No computer Braille entries will be considered.
    Submissions must be Brailled by the entrant. Elementary students
    (K-5) may submit contracted Braille, uncontracted Braille, or an
    acceptable combination of the two. Students in higher grades will be
    expected to submit stories or poetry in contracted Braille.

    There are six categories, as follows: Elementary Fiction; Elementary
    Poetry; Middle School Fiction; Middle School Poetry; High School
    Fiction; High School Poetry. Elementary is K-5. Middle School is 6-8.
    High School is 9-12.

    The contest begins January first, and ends, postmarked date April
    first. There will be three cash prizes for each of the six
    categories. First prize per contest is $25. Second prize is $15 and
    third prize is $5. Submissions for fiction may not exceed one
    thousand words. Poetry may not exceed twenty lines. Authors may
    submit multiple entries and all work must be original and unpublished.

    Each entrant must provide an identical print copy for possible
publication.

    Entries must be accompanied by a cover sheet containing entrant's
    information: Name, address, phone, email, title of the entry, school
    and grade of entrant. Winners will be announced at our division
    meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in Detroit,
Michigan.

    Send to Fred Wurtzel, 1212 N Foster, Lansing Michigan, 48912.

Questions? contact Fred Wurtzel at
f.wurtzel at comcast.net
or 517-485-0326




From KZakhnini at nfb.org  Wed Dec 31 18:10:53 2008
From: KZakhnini at nfb.org (Zakhnini,
	Karen)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:10:53 -0600
Subject: [blindkid] Second NFB Youth Slam
Message-ID: <auto-000081244739@mailfront2.g2host.com>

In the summer of 2009 we will have our second National Federation of 
the Blind Youth Slam for blind high school students.  The program 
will be held at the University of Maryland, College Park.  We still 
need plenty of mentors and students to apply, so please help us get 
the word out.

If you need more information about the program or are interested in 
being a student or mentor participant, please visit 
<http://www.blindscience.org/ncbys/Youth_Slam.asp>http://www.blindscience.org/ncbys/Youth_Slam.asp 
and fill out the appropriate application.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.  Thank you!

Sincerely,
Karen C. Zakhnini
Education Project Manager
Jernigan Institute
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

Phone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2293
Fax: (410) 659-5129

Support Braille literacy and empowering programs by sponsoring me in 
the Motor City March for Independence!  Visit 
<http://www.marchforindependence.org/site/TR/walk/General?px=1003222&pg=personal&fr_id=1050>http://www.marchforindependence.org/site/TR/walk/General?px=1003222&pg=personal&fr_id=1050






